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View Full Version : Can Valaika or Frazier play CF?



Benihana
06-08-2008, 11:53 AM
I know they haven't in the past, but I was wondering about converting either Valaika or Frazier to CF. Neither one has a concrete position that they can play in the big leagues at this point, and since they both have the athleticism to play SS at the major college level (and the lower minors), I was wondering if either could be converted to a CF a la Adam Jones and David Espinosa. It would certainly go a long ways towards resolving the position glut the Reds have throughout their system at 1B/3B/LF. Thoughts?

Lockdwn11
06-08-2008, 11:56 AM
I don't really know if either could play CF but I thought the reason they was moved off SS was because they didn't have the athleticism to play it.

lollipopcurve
06-08-2008, 11:58 AM
No, they can't.

The question re: Valaika is, can he play SS?

redhawk61
06-08-2008, 02:17 PM
Frazier, no he is a corner guy, too big

Valaika, eh maybe, wouldn't count on it. The reason for him moving off SS, he hasn't yet, is b/c lack of first step quickness which may be attributed to knee surgery he had a few years back.

schmidty622
06-08-2008, 02:40 PM
If Valaika's bat continues to be as good as it has, and if he can provide at least Keppinger like defense, I wouldn't have a problem giving him ABs at SS.

The_jbh
06-08-2008, 05:35 PM
I'd keep Valaika in the Middle of the infield as long as possible. I still have seen no reason to believe he can't be at least an average SS.

I still believe that Phillips should go to SS and Valaika goes to 2B. I think that could be a great Middle infield with some solid bats. The Reds seem content leaving BP at 2B though...

I think CV could play CF well, Fraizer is definately a corner INF or OF

Redmachine2003
06-08-2008, 08:20 PM
Why Can't Bruce continue to play CF for a few years? He has the best speed of the bunch.

Lockdwn11
06-08-2008, 10:16 PM
I have seen Bruce play now and I believe his Defense has been a little over-hyped on this board at this time. Can it improve sure but for now he's not that great in CF. Remember It's just my opinion I'm not saying I'm right thats just the way I see it. Please don't kill me.

MikeS21
06-09-2008, 12:14 PM
I'm going to throw out an idea that I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is going to be flamed at first thought. But once you get past the original "No way!" thoughts, actually might start making a little sense (emphasis on "little").

Say the Reds enter spring training next year with Dunn in LF, Bruce in RF, and your leading candidates for CF are Freel, Hopper, Chris Dickerson (if he doesn't opt for minor league FA), and a ST invite named Corey Patterson. Do you consider Drew Stubbs at all?

Here's my thinking: I think, despite all the negative concerns about his hitting skills, Stubbs would be a better option than Corey Patterson at the plate. Stubbs would struggle, but I think he would give you a higher OBS - perhaps 50-75 points higher than Patterson. You know his OBP would be higher simply because, for all his other flaws, Stubbs does seem to know how to take a walk now and then. Defensively, Stubbs could play Gold Glove caliber CF.

Freel and Hopper, IMO, are decent role players, but are not full time starters. I doubt either of them can stay healthy long enough to start. Freel is no longer the Freel we saw two years ago. I don't see him getting better. Hopper seems more like a AAAA guy, and I've seen Hopper play some amazingly bad defense for a guy with speed. Dickerson can absolutely play defense, but I don't think his OBP warrants him starting.

Would Stubbs be the best option among those five? I suppose the bigger question would be whether or not Dusty would insist on having him lead off or moving him down to 7th in the batting order.

Just thinking out loud ...

lollipopcurve
06-09-2008, 12:41 PM
Would Stubbs be the best option among those five? I suppose the bigger question would be whether or not Dusty would insist on having him lead off or moving him down to 7th in the batting order.

I doubt it. If Dickerson continues to play well in AAA, he deserves the first shot. He's supposedly a very good defender, and he's got solid OBP skills -- just like Stubbs, except he's more seasoned. Stubbs needs development time in the minors, in my opinion, if he's going to be an asset at the major league level.

Benihana
06-09-2008, 01:01 PM
I'm going to throw out an idea that I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is going to be flamed at first thought. But once you get past the original "No way!" thoughts, actually might start making a little sense (emphasis on "little").

Say the Reds enter spring training next year with Dunn in LF, Bruce in RF, and your leading candidates for CF are Freel, Hopper, Chris Dickerson (if he doesn't opt for minor league FA), and a ST invite named Corey Patterson. Do you consider Drew Stubbs at all?

Here's my thinking: I think, despite all the negative concerns about his hitting skills, Stubbs would be a better option than Corey Patterson at the plate. Stubbs would struggle, but I think he would give you a higher OBS - perhaps 50-75 points higher than Patterson. You know his OBP would be higher simply because, for all his other flaws, Stubbs does seem to know how to take a walk now and then. Defensively, Stubbs could play Gold Glove caliber CF.

Freel and Hopper, IMO, are decent role players, but are not full time starters. I doubt either of them can stay healthy long enough to start. Freel is no longer the Freel we saw two years ago. I don't see him getting better. Hopper seems more like a AAAA guy, and I've seen Hopper play some amazingly bad defense for a guy with speed. Dickerson can absolutely play defense, but I don't think his OBP warrants him starting.

Would Stubbs be the best option among those five? I suppose the bigger question would be whether or not Dusty would insist on having him lead off or moving him down to 7th in the batting order.

Just thinking out loud ...

If you didn't like Patterson leading off, you're going to HATE Drew Stubbs leading off. He might be able to take a walk here and there, but you'll probably be looking at a batting average under the Mendoza line. And no matter how much we protest, Dusty likes his centerfielders leading off.

Furthermore, if there is ANY chance of even considering this option, Stubbs needs to be accumulating at-bats right now in Chattanooga, not Sarasota.

jmcclain19
06-09-2008, 01:46 PM
If you didn't like Patterson leading off, you're going to HATE Drew Stubbs leading off. He might be able to take a walk here and there, but you'll probably be looking at a batting average under the Mendoza line. And no matter how much we protest, Dusty likes his centerfielders leading off.

Furthermore, if there is ANY chance of even considering this option, Stubbs needs to be accumulating at-bats right now in Chattanooga, not Sarasota.

Unlike Patterson - Stubbs has an excellent OBP which is one of his redeeming qualities.

I would say that Stubbs glove, his OBP and his status as a 1st round pick are all what make him a lock to get at least one go 'round in the show.

RedlegJake
06-09-2008, 02:18 PM
I'd like the Stubbbs idea if he was playing in AA right now with a chance to move up and gets some AAA ABs toward the year's end. Right now I think your idea is just 1 year premature.

HokieRed
06-09-2008, 02:35 PM
Moving Valaika to AAA should be a top priority for Walt, hopefully with the idea of getting him here in September to start to assess his ability to take over one of the infield spots. If Valaika can handle 2b, then we can move Phillips to SS, and play Keppinger at 3rd. If we sign Dunn, that cuts down the number of problematic positions to 2--CF and C. That leaves Encarnacion, Arroyo, and maybe one of Bailey, Maloney, and Thompson, along with other minor leaguers, to be moved to help strengthen CF and C. Getting a good read on Valaika becomes even more important if, as I suspect, we do not sign Dunn. If V can play second, then Walt has 3 spots to worry about. If he can't, then the problem becomes much more complex--with 3b, SS, C, CF, and LF all needing attention.

MikeS21
06-09-2008, 04:14 PM
I'd like the Stubbbs idea if he was playing in AA right now with a chance to move up and gets some AAA ABs toward the year's end. Right now I think your idea is just 1 year premature.
I would agree that the biggest test of Stubbs will be that jump to AA. And you're probably right, it is a year or two premature.


If you didn't like Patterson leading off, you're going to HATE Drew Stubbs leading off. He might be able to take a walk here and there, but you'll probably be looking at a batting average under the Mendoza line. And no matter how much we protest, Dusty likes his centerfielders leading off.

Furthermore, if there is ANY chance of even considering this option, Stubbs needs to be accumulating at-bats right now in Chattanooga, not Sarasota.
OK, that's what I was wondering. You're thinking Stubb's BA would be worse than Patterson (who already is at the Mendoza line). I was thinking that Stubb's BA could be 25-30 points higher than Patterson, and with the walks, his overall OBP would be higher.

I agree he should not bat lead-off and I also agree, he needs to be at AA. I wouldn't be too overly surprised that Stubbs might see at few AB's at AA at some point yet this season.


I doubt it. If Dickerson continues to play well in AAA, he deserves the first shot. He's supposedly a very good defender, and he's got solid OBP skills -- just like Stubbs, except he's more seasoned. Stubbs needs development time in the minors, in my opinion, if he's going to be an asset at the major league level.
Perhaps his OBP is better than I'm noticing in the boxscores. My greatest question on Dickerson is how close he is to that six year minor league FA and all the roster tinkering that goes with Rule V protection. Will he even be here next year?

Honestly, I would like to see Dickerson given about 25-30 consecutive starts (regular playing time) in CF to see what he can do at the ML level. BUT, as long as your OF consists of Dunn, Bruce, and Griffey, Dickerson is basically on the bench except for an occassional spot start here and there to spell Junior.

If Dickerson is in a Reds uniform come next spring training (a BIG "if"), I'd pencil him in as the starting CF. But if he isn't here, I'm not really liking any of the options. And the situation gets even worse if Dunn is not here.

Benihana
06-09-2008, 05:14 PM
OK, that's what I was wondering. You're thinking Stubb's BA would be worse than Patterson (who already is at the Mendoza line). I was thinking that Stubb's BA could be 25-30 points higher than Patterson, and with the walks, his overall OBP would be higher.

Based off what? That the guy is barely hitting .250 in A-ball?? I mean, come on here- .250 in A ball translates to about .050 in the big leagues when you're talking about making an instant jump.

I think we're all in agreement that Drew Stubbs may factor in to the Reds' plans for CF in 2010 if he can continue to progress (a big if). However thinking about him starting Opening Day in 2009 is just plain ridiculous at this point. That said, I do like your creativity and originality. We just have to come up with another plan.

dougdirt
06-09-2008, 06:00 PM
Based off what? That the guy is barely hitting .250 in A-ball?? I mean, come on here- .250 in A ball translates to about .050 in the big leagues when you're talking about making an instant jump.

I think we're all in agreement that Drew Stubbs may factor in to the Reds' plans for CF in 2010 if he can continue to progress (a big if). However thinking about him starting Opening Day in 2009 is just plain ridiculous at this point. That said, I do like your creativity and originality. We just have to come up with another plan.

Not so fast there my friend. Push him to AA for the rest of the year and get him out of that league that saps hitters of what appears to be their skills with the bat. See what happens. I do agree that April 2009 is likely pushing it, but I don't think July 2009 is that far out of the realm of possibility.

sh0619
06-09-2008, 10:52 PM
Why would they convert either of them to an OF position when the AA team especially is loaded with OF'ers?! There are 5... Cumberland, Strait, Henry, Dorn, and the new guy Collaro. The LAST thing we need is more OF'ers!

SMcGavin
06-09-2008, 11:36 PM
Not so fast there my friend. Push him to AA for the rest of the year and get him out of that league that saps hitters of what appears to be their skills with the bat. See what happens. I do agree that April 2009 is likely pushing it, but I don't think July 2009 is that far out of the realm of possibility.

No offense Doug, but I think this is crazy. Right now Stubbs has a .769 OPS in A+, according to the major league equivalency calculator his Sarasota line translates to .200/.289/.291 line in the bigs. This is taking into account the difficulty of the FSL. I haven't given up on Drew's development and I wouldn't even be opposed to him heading up to AA for the last couple of months, but to be ready for MLB one year from now he would have to make a massive leap.

dougdirt
06-09-2008, 11:48 PM
No offense Doug, but I think this is crazy. Right now Stubbs has a .769 OPS in A+, according to the major league equivalency calculator his Sarasota line translates to .200/.289/.291 line in the bigs. This is taking into account the difficulty of the FSL. I haven't given up on Drew's development and I wouldn't even be opposed to him heading up to AA for the last couple of months, but to be ready for MLB one year from now he would have to make a massive leap.

And I don't expect him to jump from the FSL to Cincinnati.... just the FSL to Chattanooga. Does he need to make some big steps in order to do that? Yeah, he does. I think he could do it though.

redhawk61
06-10-2008, 12:02 AM
And I don't expect him to jump from the FSL to Cincinnati.... just the FSL to Chattanooga. Does he need to make some big steps in order to do that? Yeah, he does. I think he could do it though.

I agree with you, its now or never for him and its time to push him and see what you got. A change of scenery might do him some good as well as the promotion could raise his confidence, that he is only 2 steps away from the show. Let him play in the FSL all star game then promote him.

11larkin11
06-10-2008, 12:04 AM
I would love to see him moved up, but I think if they were going to, they would have promoted him instead of signing Colaro.

AmarilloRed
06-10-2008, 12:14 AM
AA is packed with good outfielders-one of them will need to be promoted to AAA before Stubbs can be promoted to AA. I don't think a promotion for one(or more) of them is too far away, however. July seems about right.

Benihana
06-10-2008, 12:38 AM
AA is packed with good outfielders-one of them will need to be promoted to AAA before Stubbs can be promoted to AA. I don't think a promotion for one(or more) of them is too far away, however. July seems about right.

Stubbs to Chattanooga, Cumberland to Louisville. It should happen by the All-Star Break.

It will be interesting to see who gets to Cincy first- Stubbs or Alonso. You could also add Frazier to that mix. It would be telling if our 2008 first round pick made it to the majors before our 2006 first rounder, considering both were college hitters selected with almost the same exact pick.

Benihana
06-10-2008, 12:42 AM
Why would they convert either of them to an OF position when the AA team especially is loaded with OF'ers?! There are 5... Cumberland, Strait, Henry, Dorn, and the new guy Collaro. The LAST thing we need is more OF'ers!

Because you don't plan prospects' futures based off of needs at the AA level, you do it based off of the major league team and/or other top prospects in the organization. I wouldn't make a decision on a blue chip guy like Valaika or Frazier based off of the presence of Sean Henry, Cody Strait, or Collaro- none of whom ever project to much more than minor league fodder. Not to mention, with the possible exception of Henry, none of your aforementioned can play a decent CF.

Not saying a position switch would necessarily work for either guy, but your reasons are certainly not anything to consider when making such decisions.

Betterread
06-10-2008, 12:56 AM
No.
Frazier - maybe LF
Valaika is not an outfielder at all.