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View Full Version : Is it coincidence................(Harang)



hebroncougar
06-09-2008, 11:07 AM
That Harang has been very poor since used in that extensive relief outing? The next time the Reds get an off day mixed in, they might be best served to give him the extra day, instead of skipping the fifth starter. Just food for thought.

texasdave
06-09-2008, 11:46 AM
I am really not all that familiar with how pitchers prepare for games so I have some questions. First, how many times does a starting pitching throw between starts? Second, how hard do they throw when tossing between starts? (Do they throw at 100%? 90%? Less than that?) Third, how many pitches do they throw between starts?

I guess the point of all these questions is this: Instead of skipping a turn with Harang, would it be the same if Harang just skipped his in-between pitching routine for a start or two instead? Would that accomplish the same goal?

Jefferson24
06-09-2008, 01:26 PM
I would have him skip the next two starts but have him continue to do his side sessions. He needs to get back on track, this may help.

HalMorrisRules
06-09-2008, 04:19 PM
That Harang has been very poor since used in that extensive relief outing? The next time the Reds get an off day mixed in, they might be best served to give him the extra day, instead of skipping the fifth starter. Just food for thought.

Yes, coincidence. Explain how his "extensive relief outing" made him give up 10 hits and 5 runs in 5.1 innings three days earlier? What was Dusty supposed to do? Send out a position player to pitch and basically surrender that game? Then have fans say "Dusty must be fired! Why didnt he pitch Harang? He only went 5 innings three days ago."

Cicero
06-09-2008, 04:27 PM
Here's crazy thought:

Sometimes pitchers can go into a slump too. Aaron Harang has set a very high standard for himself, but even he will go through occasional rough patches.

TN Red Fan
06-09-2008, 04:29 PM
It has nothing to do with the relief apperance.


Harang gave up 5 earned runs and 10 hits in 5 innings the week before the relief outing. Since then he's had two bad games (6 ER in 4 IP and the 7 ER in 5 1/3) and one good game (a 3-2 loss to the Phillies high-powered offense).

Here's what Harang had to say:

"I don't have a feel for anything right now," Harang said. "Leaving pitches over the plate, it's just not normal for me. I've got to work on some stuff and figure out what it is and go from there."

Sounds mental more than anything, not hitting his spots. Cueto had a stretch where he gave up 20 ER in 19 innings. Outside of that stretch he's only given up 22 in 55 innings. There was no reason, it just happens. It's just a slump in a game of slumps and streaks.

Slyder
06-09-2008, 04:30 PM
Yes, coincidence. Explain how his "extensive relief outing" made him give up 10 hits and 5 runs in 5.1 innings three days earlier? What was Dusty supposed to do? Send out a position player to pitch and basically surrender that game? Then have fans say "Dusty must be fired! Why didnt he pitch Harang? He only went 5 innings three days ago."

I wouldnt. I would have said if it were September and we were in it then you go deep. Otherwise NO REASON to go out and do dumb crap like what Dusty ended up doing. San Diego didnt have to use 2 of its starters to make it through 18, you dont see the Blue Jays throwing Halladay out there in relief, you dont see a lot of teams making those mistakes in May. Learn from the mistake with Fogg and if it happens again dont make that mistake again. Punt the game and save your starters so you dont have to stretch things out following games. Maybe you just might pull a major surprise with someone up there throwing junk.

HalMorrisRules
06-09-2008, 08:03 PM
you dont see the Blue Jays throwing Halladay out there in relief, you dont see a lot of teams making those mistakes in May.

Wanna guess what happened on May 18th?


After the inning ended, the game was stopped by rain for 2 hours, and 4 minutes. A second delay of 39 minutes halted the game in the sixth inning. When play resumed, Toronto ace Roy Halladay made his first relief appearance since July 2, 2001. He pitched 2 1/3 innings giving up a hit. He struck out two. Halladay last pitched on Thursday.

The Blue Jays "threw" Halladay out there in relief a week earlier than Harang was "thrown" out there for the Reds. Halladay had pitched the same day of the week that Harang had thrown, so this is apples to apples. I dont see anyone criticizing his being used in that game. So I guess this does happen in May to people like Halladay, right?

5/18 Recap (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=280518122)

Slyder
06-10-2008, 12:38 AM
23 pitches compared to 60+?

Yes I did miss that one. But 23 pitches is barely any work and he got skipped.

Last start before: May 14 (3 days rest)
Next start after: May 23 (4 days rest)

Compare that to 63 pitches for Harang

Last start before: May 22nd (2 days)
Next start after: May 29th (3 days)

HalMorrisRules
06-10-2008, 09:36 AM
Oh, so now you are arguing pitch counts? So if Harang had only thrown 20+ pitches you would have been ok with it?

But my original point you ignored and instead focused on the "dumb crap" that only Dusty was capable of doing which has now been proven to be incorrect. That wasn't even my argument. How did Dusty's use of him on the 25th impact the bad pitching performance Harang had on the 22nd? Harang is and has been having an off year which has absolutely nothing to do how he was used on that Sunday in San Diego.

hebroncougar
06-10-2008, 11:29 AM
Oh, so now you are arguing pitch counts? So if Harang had only thrown 20+ pitches you would have been ok with it?

But my original point you ignored and instead focused on the "dumb crap" that only Dusty was capable of doing which has now been proven to be incorrect. That wasn't even my argument. How did Dusty's use of him on the 25th impact the bad pitching performance Harang had on the 22nd? Harang is and has been having an off year which has absolutely nothing to do how he was used on that Sunday in San Diego.

I wouldn't have been ok with it, PERIOD. I would have saved Fogg for last, like most anyone with any sense about how to manage a baseball game.

HalMorrisRules
06-10-2008, 11:51 AM
I wouldn't have been ok with it, PERIOD. I would have saved Fogg for last, like most anyone with any sense about how to manage a baseball game.

First of all, that comment wasnt directed at anything you said. Secondly, when a game goes 18 innings, managers have to do strange things sometimes. You can not manage every game thinking it might go 18 innings. You have the benefit on 20/20 hindsight.

levydl
06-10-2008, 12:17 PM
First of all, that comment wasnt directed at anything you said. Secondly, when a game goes 18 innings, managers have to do strange things sometimes. You can not manage every game thinking it might go 18 innings. You have the benefit on 20/20 hindsight.

Did Bud Black have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight when he was able to manage 18 innings without using a starter in relief, while Dusty had to use 2, 1 of whom is a 24 year old that pitched not even 48 hours before? Bud Black isn't exactly the greatest manager of all time, and he figured it out.

And yes, before I used Harang, or for heaven's sakes Volquez, I would have put Freel out there on the mound and hoped for the best while not jeopardizing our top 2 pitchers for 1 win (which we didn't even get!).

hebroncougar
06-10-2008, 02:09 PM
First of all, that comment wasnt directed at anything you said. Secondly, when a game goes 18 innings, managers have to do strange things sometimes. You can not manage every game thinking it might go 18 innings. You have the benefit on 20/20 hindsight.

No, but he should have 20/20 foresight in regards to a pitcher that they have 30+ million invested in for the next couple of years. Heck, it's not rocket science. Bud Black figured it out. You don't use your long reliever for 2 batters in the 11th inning, and then pull him for a lefty, lefty matchup with your last available reliever, who happens to be a short guy. Of course, that's good baseball sense.