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westofyou
06-09-2008, 11:56 AM
Jim Bowden.... never met a comparison he was not willing to draw.

On the Nats 2nd round pick.



Bowden described Hood as having "Barry Bonds-level eyes" and "Vladimir Guerrero-bat speed and power."

http://washington.nationals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080608&content_id=2867874&vkey=news_was&fext=.jsp&c_id=was

Heath
06-09-2008, 11:57 AM
I'm glad Jim Bowden and Sparky Anderson never worked together.

westofyou
06-09-2008, 11:59 AM
I'm glad Jim Bowden and Sparky Anderson never worked together.

http://reds.enquirer.com/2002/06/23/red_top_draft_pick_gets.html

Reds general manager Jim Bowden gave Gruler a jersey Saturday.


“He'll be wearing this in that stadium over there in a few years,” Bowden said, pointing to Great American Ball Park, “if not sooner.”

kaldaniels
06-09-2008, 12:01 PM
Jim Bowden.... never met a comparison he was not willing to draw.

On the Nats 2nd round pick.



http://washington.nationals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080608&content_id=2867874&vkey=news_was&fext=.jsp&c_id=was

With the raw strength of Wily Mo Pena???:D

Hap
06-09-2008, 12:42 PM
And remember that Junior was "the Michael Jordan of baseball".

redsmetz
06-09-2008, 12:43 PM
http://reds.enquirer.com/2002/06/23/red_top_draft_pick_gets.html

Reds general manager Jim Bowden gave Gruler a jersey Saturday.


“He'll be wearing this in that stadium over there in a few years,” Bowden said, pointing to Great American Ball Park, “if not sooner.”


Which happened sooner - Gruler's arm falling off or the implosion of Riverfront/Cinergy?

Chip R
06-09-2008, 12:45 PM
And remember that Junior was "the Michael Jordan of baseball".


He was.

Jpup
06-09-2008, 01:19 PM
He was.

not even close.

Chip R
06-09-2008, 01:52 PM
not even close.


If you forget about his Cincinnati years, he was.

Heath
06-09-2008, 01:52 PM
Chris Gruler, cheap and ineffective.

pahster
06-09-2008, 02:18 PM
If you forget about his Cincinnati years, he was.

Yep. He was on Wheaties boxes, he had video games, he was in tons of commercials, he was in movies, and he had his own line of shoes. Everyone knew who he was; he was the Jordan of baseball.

BCubb2003
06-09-2008, 02:21 PM
Bowden described Hood as having "Barry Bonds-level eyes" and "Vladimir Guerrero-bat speed and power."

So he's saying Hood is about 6'1"?

KronoRed
06-09-2008, 02:59 PM
Hard to to believe this team gave him 10 1/2 years to do jack.

Jpup
06-09-2008, 03:57 PM
If you forget about his Cincinnati years, he was.

not really. He doesn't have any rings and he was never as popular as Jordan. Jordan is/was the most famous athlete in the world. Tiger Woods is the only guy close to that. Babe Ruth is the Jordan of baseball.

Chip R
06-09-2008, 04:30 PM
not really. He doesn't have any rings and he was never as popular as Jordan. Jordan is/was the most famous athlete in the world. Tiger Woods is the only guy close to that. Babe Ruth is the Jordan of baseball.


Jordan didn't have any rings for several years yet he was still one of the most popular players on the planet. Jr. was arguably the best all around player and most popular player in his sport as was MJ. That's what JimBo was talking about. No one said he was as popular or more popular than MJ. JimBo said he was the MJ of baseball. No one else in the game had the combination of the popularity and athletic ability that Jr. had. Even at his advanced age he's still one of the top vote getters for the All Star Game. If MJ decided to come out of retirement and was a shadow of his former self, he would still be amongst the most popular players in the NBA based on his past glory.

westofyou
06-09-2008, 04:31 PM
not really. He doesn't have any rings and he was never as popular as Jordan. Jordan is/was the most famous athlete in the world. Tiger Woods is the only guy close to that. Babe Ruth is the Jordan of baseball.

No... Michael Jordan is the Babe Ruth of Basketball.. and maybe not even that, because Wilt Chamberlane 's game changed the game more than Jordan's did.

Big Klu
06-09-2008, 04:34 PM
All I know is that Jim Edmonds is the Jim Brown of baseball. :D

RFS62
06-09-2008, 04:40 PM
I think he meant that Wily Mo played baseball like Michael Jorden did.

top6
06-09-2008, 05:16 PM
Hard to to believe this team gave him 10 1/2 years to do jack.
He accomplished more than this successors have been able to. A lot more.

westofyou
06-09-2008, 05:22 PM
He accomplished more than this successors have been able to. A lot more.

He walked into the stall when it was still clean and didn't leave it the it the way he found it.

George Anderson
06-09-2008, 05:25 PM
He walked into the stall when it was still clean and didn't leave it the it the way he found it.

and I doubt if he washed his hands when he went back to work.

Always Red
06-09-2008, 07:15 PM
and I doubt if he washed his hands when he went back to work.

He just wiped his hands on those leather pants.

Dan
06-09-2008, 07:59 PM
Is there any question this Hood guy also has the baseball skills of Curtis Goodwin?

LoganBuck
06-09-2008, 10:35 PM
Willie Green had the bat speed of Barry Bonds and Gary Sheffield

Hap
06-10-2008, 12:21 AM
Willie Greene also had the raw power of Willie McCovey, on the rare occasions he would actually make contact.

Mario-Rijo
06-10-2008, 01:10 AM
All I know is that Jim Edmonds is the Jim Brown of baseball. :D

Learn something new everyday, I had no idea JB was an arrogant showboat. :D

Wheelhouse
06-10-2008, 01:42 AM
Supposedly JimBo is in trouble according to Jon Heyman ( http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/06/06/heyman.bruce/1.html )

For me, I'd love to see Krivsky get his job.

MWM
06-10-2008, 02:01 AM
No... Michael Jordan is the Babe Ruth of Basketball.. and maybe not even that, because Wilt Chamberlane 's game changed the game more than Jordan's did.

Maybe for a period of time, but if you watch any of the NBA today, it's got Jordan's finger prints all over it. Modern day NBA I believe has been influenced more by MJ than anyone. Not that I think it's a good thing, because it's not, IMO. From high school on up to the NBA players have tried to emulate MJ. It's darn near made the NBA unwatchable for me.

BCubb2003
06-10-2008, 03:08 AM
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51THZKQJCHL._SS500_.jpg

Jpup
06-10-2008, 01:44 PM
No... Michael Jordan is the Babe Ruth of Basketball.. and maybe not even that, because Wilt Chamberlane 's game changed the game more than Jordan's did.

Michael Jordan was and is more famous than Babe Ruth on a world wide basis. No one has influenced the NBA more than Micheal Jordan. He was the NBA for the better part of 15 years.

Mario-Rijo
06-10-2008, 01:51 PM
Michael Jordan was and is more famous than Babe Ruth on a world wide basis. No one has influenced the NBA more than Micheal Jordan. He was the NBA for the better part of 15 years.

Perhaps you are right, however the fact it's still being argued more than 70 years after his career ended (and 94 years after his career began) speaks volumes about his status as a sports icon.

Babe Ruth is a sports giant even today whereas soomeone else who dominated their sport in early years like say George Mikan rarely gets mentioned.

Ruth and Jordan will probably always be talked about legends/icons, but Ruth will for sure.

Jpup
06-10-2008, 02:00 PM
Perhaps you are right, however the fact it's still being argued more than 70 years after his career ended (and 94 years after his career began) speaks volumes about his status as a sports icon.

Babe Ruth is a sports giant even today whereas soomeone else who dominated their sport in early years like say George Mikan rarely gets mentioned.

Ruth and Jordan will probably always be talked about legends/icons, but Ruth will for sure.

Jordan, Ruth, Tiger. That's the 3 biggest icons in sports in America. Jr. was good but he doesn't belong on that list.

westofyou
06-10-2008, 02:01 PM
Jordan, Ruth, Tiger. That's the 3 biggest icons in sports in America. Jr. was good but he doesn't belong on that list.

Cassius Clay says hello.

REDREAD
06-10-2008, 02:01 PM
Jordan didn't have any rings for several years yet he was still one of the most popular players on the planet. Jr. was arguably the best all around player and most popular player in his sport as was MJ. That's what JimBo was talking about. No one said he was as popular or more popular than MJ. JimBo said he was the MJ of baseball. No one else in the game had the combination of the popularity and athletic ability that Jr. had. Even at his advanced age he's still one of the top vote getters for the All Star Game. If MJ decided to come out of retirement and was a shadow of his former self, he would still be amongst the most popular players in the NBA based on his past glory.

Wasn't Jr the only active player on the all century team as well.. Or something like that..

Jr was huge in his prime. It's fair to say he was the Jordan of baseball at the time.

Great point about the allstar game votes here. I think some people in Cincinnati are in such a hurry to get rid of Jr and have such resentment for him that they forget he actually is a big name..

Mario-Rijo
06-10-2008, 02:04 PM
Jordan, Ruth, Tiger. That's the 3 biggest icons in sports in America. Jr. was good but he doesn't belong on that list.

I don't disagree with that. But perhaps the order of those 3 is subject to an argument. And as WOY points out Muhammad Ali is close if not on that list.

REDREAD
06-10-2008, 02:04 PM
He walked into the stall when it was still clean and didn't leave it the it the way he found it.

And he won a division title in 1995. The Reds attendence ranking (relative to the league) under Bowden's good years were better than they've been ever since.

Even under the handicap of John Allen, he still almost made the playoffs in 1999..

He wasn't a genius or HOF GM but he was better than anything we've had ever since. Hopefully Walt surpasses him though.

TRF
06-10-2008, 02:07 PM
Ali absolutely makes the list. Gretzky too.

Jordan's popularity is directly related to the ESPN explosion of coverage. Ruth was a legend to a country that for the most part had never seen him play.

BCubb2003
06-10-2008, 02:09 PM
You'll have to add Yao to the list, if fame is a counting stat.

westofyou
06-10-2008, 02:10 PM
Pele eats Jordan's lunch.

Jpup
06-10-2008, 02:28 PM
Pele eats Jordan's lunch.

soccer doesn't count. ;) I agree about Ali though.

George Anderson
06-10-2008, 02:35 PM
Wasn't Jr the only active player on the all century team as well.. Or something like that..



The Rocket and Big Mac were active and named to the "ALL Century Team".

Unless you meant players who were active and not on the juice then yes JR was the only one. ;)

KronoRed
06-10-2008, 02:54 PM
He accomplished more than this successors have been able to. A lot more.

If the guys who followed him had been set up as nicely as Bowden was by the previous GM I'm betting they would have done better then 2 flash in the pan years and 7 of mediocrity.

top6
06-10-2008, 03:06 PM
If the guys who followed him had been set up as nicely as Bowden was by the previous GM I'm betting they would have done better then 2 flash in the pan years and 7 of mediocrity.

The Reds haven't really even reached mediocrity since he left. Bowden put together a good team in 1999 and a decent team in 2000 (not the best year, but better than any of the garbage O'Brien or Krivisky put out there). Those seasons were years after he was named GM, so you can't give all of the credit to his predecessors.

He also didn't burden the team with that many terrible, long-term contracts that I can recall - outside of maybe Griffey, but every GM and their mother would have signed that deal and even given the injuries it hasn't been that bad. Larkin's last contract was an awful signing as well I guess - but I don't blame Bowden for that.

He really wasn't a very good GM, and obviously he has never figured out how to develop pitching. But I didn't say he was good, just better than Krivisky and O'brien.

Mario-Rijo
06-10-2008, 03:22 PM
The Reds haven't really even reached mediocrity since he left. Bowden put together a good team in 1999 and a decent team in 2000 (not the best year, but better than any of the garbage O'Brien or Krivisky put out there). Those seasons were years after he was named GM, so you can't give all of the credit to his predecessors.

He also didn't burden the team with that many terrible, long-term contracts that I can recall - outside of maybe Griffey, but every GM and their mother would have signed that deal and even given the injuries it hasn't been that bad. Larkin's last contract was an awful signing as well I guess - but I don't blame Bowden for that.

He really wasn't a very good GM, and obviously he has never figured out how to develop pitching. But I didn't say he was good, just better than Krivisky and O'brien.

I'm sure O'Brien and Krivsky could have mortgaged the future for a couple of mediocre seasons as well if they weren't trying to fix the mess he was partly responsible for.

MWM
06-10-2008, 04:20 PM
I love soccer about as much as anyone, and I don't agree that Pele eats Jordan's lunch. Michael Jordan is the best athlete I've ever seen in my life in ANY sport.

top6
06-10-2008, 04:20 PM
I'm sure O'Brien and Krivsky could have mortgaged the future for a couple of mediocre seasons as well if they weren't trying to fix the mess he was partly responsible for.
If signing an average closer to a ridiculous contract to play on a bad, small market team isn't mortgaging the future for a couple of medicore seasons, then nothing is.

Also, who are all these great prospects that Bowden traded away? He was not that good at drafting, true, but I don't think it's fair to say he "mortgaged the future." There never was that much of a future. He just wasn't that good at many aspects of being GM - including drafting - but he didn't lead the Reds to the consistent and complete failure they have enjoyed since he left. (On the other hand, he gave future GMs Votto, Encarnacion, Dunn, Kearns and Lopez to work with, as a start. Also Griffey. He also should get some credit for Harang, since he got Guillen for nothing and he was traded for Harang right after Bowden was fired.) (As an aside, how sad is it that the Reds best trade of the last 15 years was only able to happen when there was no permanent GM.)

Also, the criticism against him that started this thread isn't all that fair. OMG, HE IS OVERLY POSITIVE ABOUT HIS TOP DRAFT PICKS!!!!! OUTRAGEOUS!!!!

Another thing Bowden never did was spend millions on one of the worst managers in baseball. In fact, it seems like a lot of people on here think that our last good manager was Davey Johnson. Guess who hired him, and guess who didn't fire him? (As I recall, that was Bowden's boss.)

REDREAD
06-10-2008, 04:25 PM
The Rocket and Big Mac were active and named to the "ALL Century Team".

Unless you meant players who were active and not on the juice then yes JR was the only one. ;)

Ok.. thanks, I forgot.. I thought there was something unique about Jr.. Maybe he was the youngest guy on the team or something like that.. Or maybe I'm just hallucinating again...

REDREAD
06-10-2008, 04:29 PM
If the guys who followed him had been set up as nicely as Bowden was by the previous GM I'm betting they would have done better then 2 flash in the pan years and 7 of mediocrity.


Bowden did a complete teardown in 1997 and had a contender in 1999..

Wayne was set up pretty good, wasn't he? All that young talent in the pipeline.. He just couldn't pull the trigger on a Vaughn, Neagle or Wells to get the team rolling.. He also could not find the good complimentary players like Hammonds/Tucker.. Not to mention, he couldn't find a CF like Cameron or build a bullpen like Bowden...

Bowden absolutely smokes DanO and Wayne in terms of performance.. It's not even close.. He finished weakly, largely because he and the interm GMs were forced to give away talent for nothing (thanks to Lindner and Allen's greed), but he was a better GM than Wayne/DanO.

Chip R
06-10-2008, 04:33 PM
I love soccer about as much as anyone, and I don't agree that Pele eats Jordan's lunch. Michael Jordan is the best athlete I've ever seen in my life in ANY sport.


I think we're talking more about popularity than athletic ability.

Mario-Rijo
06-10-2008, 05:03 PM
If signing an average closer to a ridiculous contract to play on a bad, small market team isn't mortgaging the future for a couple of medicore seasons, then nothing is.

Also, who are all these great prospects that Bowden traded away? He was not that good at drafting, true, but I don't think it's fair to say he "mortgaged the future." There never was that much of a future. He just wasn't that good at many aspects of being GM - including drafting - but he didn't lead the Reds to the consistent and complete failure they have enjoyed since he left. (On the other hand, he gave future GMs Votto, Encarnacion, Dunn, Kearns and Lopez to work with, as a start. Also Griffey. He also should get some credit for Harang, since he got Guillen for nothing and he was traded for Harang right after Bowden was fired.) (As an aside, how sad is it that the Reds best trade of the last 15 years was only able to happen when there was no permanent GM.)

Also, the criticism against him that started this thread isn't all that fair. OMG, HE IS OVERLY POSITIVE ABOUT HIS TOP DRAFT PICKS!!!!! OUTRAGEOUS!!!!

Another thing Bowden never did was spend millions on one of the worst managers in baseball. In fact, it seems like a lot of people on here think that our last good manager was Davey Johnson. Guess who hired him, and guess who didn't fire him? (As I recall, that was Bowden's boss.)

Certainly Bowden wasn't the worst GM ever and I am not trying to say he was. However off the top of my head I know he traded away B.J. Ryan, Paul O'neill and Paul Konerko.

No he doesn't get any credit for Harang as I'm sure he was too enamored with his 5 tool OF's that he would have ever traded Guillen away for him. And he left these GM's only Dunn, EE and Votto, I would hardly consider Lopez & Kearns at this point to be real valuable assets. They probably would have never even brought what they did if it wasn't for Bowden dealing for them.

top6
06-10-2008, 05:37 PM
Certainly Bowden wasn't the worst GM ever and I am not trying to say he was. However off the top of my head I know he traded away B.J. Ryan, Paul O'neill and Paul Konerko.

No he doesn't get any credit for Harang as I'm sure he was too enamored with his 5 tool OF's that he would have ever traded Guillen away for him. And he left these GM's only Dunn, EE and Votto, I would hardly consider Lopez & Kearns at this point to be real valuable assets. They probably would have never even brought what they did if it wasn't for Bowden dealing for them.
O'Neil was not a good trade.

He traded B.J. Ryan for a month or two of Juan Guzman. OK, not the greatest trade in retrospect, but the Reds were in a playoff hunt and needed another starter.

He traded Konerko for Cameron because he had Casey, and then traded Cameron for Griffey. That worked out fine for the Reds.

None of these moves were nearly as assinine as signing Milton, Cordero or Dusty Baker. Even the ones that didn't work out weren't predictably awful from the second they happened.

westofyou
06-10-2008, 05:40 PM
Even the ones that didn't work out weren't predictably awful from the second they happened.Damon Berryhill

top6
06-10-2008, 06:08 PM
Damon Berryhill
I was really only talking about the transactions in that post but fair enough. I defer to your judgment and am going to have to rely on others to analyze 1995-96 or so transactions because, honestly, I wasn't paying any attention to baseball during those years.

I still think Bowden is a little underrated here, as he did bring some respectable teams to town and, IMO, left his successors with at least some talent to work with and without that many bad, long-term contracts.

George Anderson
06-10-2008, 06:10 PM
O'Neil was not a good trade.

He traded B.J. Ryan for a month or two of Juan Guzman. OK, not the greatest trade in retrospect, but the Reds were in a playoff hunt and needed another starter.

He traded Konerko for Cameron because he had Casey, and then traded Cameron for Griffey. That worked out fine for the Reds.

None of these moves were nearly as assinine as signing Milton, Cordero or Dusty Baker. Even the ones that didn't work out weren't predictably awful from the second they happened.

If I recall Jimbo was responsible for leaving Trevor Hoffman unprotected :eek:

MrCinatit
06-10-2008, 06:31 PM
If I recall Jimbo was responsible for leaving Trevor Hoffman unprotected :eek:

That was a pretty big one.
Some might also argue that trading Dan Wilson for Erik Hanson and Bret Boone was pretty big, as well as trading Boone and Remlinger for Neagle, Tucker and Rob Bell.

TRF
06-10-2008, 06:51 PM
He then flipped Bell for Mateo and EE. that was a really good trade.

RFS62
06-10-2008, 09:35 PM
Ruth, Ali, Jorden

KronoRed
06-11-2008, 03:08 AM
He then flipped Bell for Mateo and EE. that was a really good trade.

Depends on what EE turns into or what Walt gets for him when he moves him, Mateo was 5 tool junk.

REDREAD
06-11-2008, 11:12 AM
I'm sure O'Brien and Krivsky could have mortgaged the future for a couple of mediocre seasons as well if they weren't trying to fix the mess he was partly responsible for.

What's the goal of a GM? Isn't it to make the playoffs?

What future did DanO and Wayne "not mortgage".. We've been living in mediocrity.. It doesn't seem to me that they saved the future at all. Look at the team on the field now. It is the definition of mediocrity.

I'm just wondering if you think it was worth it to trade #1 draft pick CJ Nitcowski and young 3b Mark Lewis for David Wells in 1995.. Was that worth it? Were you upset at the time because they were mortgaging their future?

What about BJ Ryan for Guzman in 1999? Another mortgaging the future move? Did that upset you?

I do recall people being upset with trading for Cameron, because Konerko was such a great prospect.. but if we didn't make that trade, in the BEST case, Casey would've been dumped a year or two later and then Konerko would've played on some mediocre teams until he got too expensive.

A team only controls players for 6 years, unless they ante up the big bucks. Thus by definition, there really isn't a long term plan. You have to pick your spots to try to win.. Endlessly gathering prospects and rebuilding doesn't work. Even the Marlins trade prospects to fill holes when they feel they are close to contending..

REDREAD
06-11-2008, 11:19 AM
Certainly Bowden wasn't the worst GM ever and I am not trying to say he was. However off the top of my head I know he traded away B.J. Ryan, Paul O'neill and Paul Konerko.

O'neil was a stinker..

I didn't see this post when I made my other post.. Konerko for Cameron was one of Bowden's best trades.. Ryan was a good trade. Sure, Ryan had a nice career in Balt, but one of Bowden's skills was building a bullpen. One of his weaknesses was starting pitching. Makes sense to trade from an organizational strength (relief pitching) to fill a hole (#3 starter)..





I would hardly consider Lopez & Kearns at this point to be real valuable assets. They probably would have never even brought what they did if it wasn't for Bowden dealing for them.

At the time of the trade, Kearns was one of the better OPSing RF. Lopez had just come off an allstar season. Sure, the allstar team doesn't mean he was the greatest SS in the league, but it means that he wasn't exactly crap either. The reaction when Lopez and Kearns was traded from other executives was that they couldn't believe the REds got so little. Atlanta said they wished the Reds had called them.. So, it's weak to say Kearns and Lopez were not assets. They were. Guillen was an asset too. Pena was an asset. Bowden didn't exactly leave the cupboard bare when he was fired.
When he left, the Reds had good position players and a good bullpen. They lacked starting pitching, but had talent.

REDREAD
06-11-2008, 11:21 AM
Damon Berryhill


Berryhill was a FA signing that cost the Reds a draft pick.
It's not as if the Reds were spending money on the draft anyhow. The pick would've been used on another signablity guy that would've never made the show...
Not a great move, but far from the worst move he ever made.

Edit: I see you were picking a move that was obviously bad at the time.. Ok, I agree with you on that.

REDREAD
06-11-2008, 11:24 AM
That was a pretty big one.
Some might also argue that trading Dan Wilson for Erik Hanson and Bret Boone was pretty big, as well as trading Boone and Remlinger for Neagle, Tucker and Rob Bell.

These were good trades, IMO. Especially Boone for Neagle.

The Reds had enough catching to spare Wilson. Actually, I am trying to think.. IIRC, the Wilson trade was made before Bowden arrived. I thought one of the first things Bowden did when he arrived was to trade Hanson for Hal Morris.. But regardless of who made it, I don't see the Dan Wilson trade as a bad one. We got value in return.

BCubb2003
06-11-2008, 11:29 AM
If Bowden were still here, the Reds would be the Nationals instead of the other way around.

Mario-Rijo
06-11-2008, 11:56 AM
REDREAD, Overall Krivsky was far better than Bowden in alot of ways IMO and you feel exactly the opposite so we will have to agree to disagree. Because it's become very obvious that you are the biggest detractor of Krivsky and I am probably his biggest supporter. So I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this subject.

westofyou
06-11-2008, 11:57 AM
If Bowden were still here, the Reds would be the Nationals instead of the other way around.

Yep with a drawer full of tools and no instruction book or starting staff.

REDREAD
06-11-2008, 12:17 PM
REDREAD, Overall Krivsky was far better than Bowden in alot of ways IMO and you feel exactly the opposite so we will have to agree to disagree. Because it's become very obvious that you are the biggest detractor of Krivsky and I am probably his biggest supporter. So I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this subject.

Yeah, I didn't mean to argue.. It's just I think Bowden had some success. I agree that Bowden's last few years were bad though. Likewise, Wayne made a few good moves too..

TRF
06-11-2008, 01:35 PM
Depends on what EE turns into or what Walt gets for him when he moves him, Mateo was 5 tool junk.

No, we already know what EE is right now, and that is far better than Rob Bell. Sadly Mateo should have been more, but he never really recovered from his broken leg he suffered while with the Rangers.

REDREAD
06-11-2008, 02:36 PM
Depends on what EE turns into or what Walt gets for him when he moves him, Mateo was 5 tool junk.

It's already a clear win for the Reds, even if EdE has a career ending injury tommorrow.