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View Full Version : Arizona State's Baseball Coach Should be Fired and Flogged



Boston Red
06-09-2008, 11:05 PM
He put in a kid in relief in their Super Regional game tonight who had thrown 118 pitches two days before. One day of rest after 118 pitches, and he throws the kid back out there. Baffling. The pitcher looks like he's going to get the loss, too, as Fresno leads them 12-5 in the 9th.

LoganBuck
06-10-2008, 07:33 AM
Nolan Ryan, Jeff Brantley and Marty Brennamen applaud the guy.

klw
06-10-2008, 07:40 AM
This is starting to happen occasionally. Throw a guy out of the pen on a day when it was slated for him to throw on the side. See Harang and the Padres game and Pettitte did it last year a few times.

cincinnati chili
06-10-2008, 09:34 AM
This is starting to happen occasionally. Throw a guy out of the pen on a day when it was slated for him to throw on the side. See Harang and the Padres game and Pettitte did it last year a few times.

Look how well Harang has pitched since then.

flyer85
06-10-2008, 10:00 AM
Nolan Ryan, Jeff Brantley and Marty Brennamen applaud the guy.you left out Dusty Baker :D

IslandRed
06-10-2008, 12:14 PM
He put in a kid in relief in their Super Regional game tonight who had thrown 118 pitches two days before. One day of rest after 118 pitches, and he throws the kid back out there. Baffling. The pitcher looks like he's going to get the loss, too, as Fresno leads them 12-5 in the 9th.

Hate to say it, but this has been going on forever in college baseball. David Price made a relief appearance last year on two days' rest after throwing a 10-inning complete game. And this was just a few days before Price was to go #1 in the draft.

Bottom and unfortunate line, coaches are paid to win, college pitching staffs aren't very deep and the tournament settings put extra stress on them. (To use one extreme example, FSU lost its first regional game, so it had to win four elimination games in three days to advance.) Teams often play their most important games with a staff that's already used up. It's actually better than it used to be, IMHO. There's at least an awareness of the issue now, whereas in the old days they didn't think twice about riding their horses into the ground.

Boston Red
06-10-2008, 12:30 PM
Maybe so, but I couldn't help but take a little bit of pleasure in the fact that they kid gave up six runs in the inning, which essentially sealed ASU's fate. I feel bad for the pitcher, but the coach definitely got what he deserved.

Az. Reds Fan
06-10-2008, 04:04 PM
The way coach Pat Murphy handled Mike Leake is the least of his worries. The staged fight between ASU's best players, Ike Davis and Brett Wallace, before the game might end up costing Murphy his job.

redsfanmia
06-10-2008, 04:18 PM
Pitchers are coddled too much as it is, I say if the kid says he can do it then let him.

dougdirt
06-10-2008, 05:47 PM
Pitchers are coddled too much as it is, I say if the kid says he can do it then let him.

Pitchers are coddled so much these days because they were brought up coddled and to keep their arms healthy they need to continue to be coddled. Heck, I grew up playing baseball in the 90s and we had set rules on how often a pitcher could throw, how many innings and how much rest between games. These guys now are coming up with pitch counts, innings limits and so on. When you grow up like that, your arm is only capable of so much and you have to know its limits. This isn't 1960 anymore, guys aren't throwing 200 innings in high school, so when they get to the majors they can throw 300 like its nothing.

Kingspoint
06-10-2008, 08:05 PM
He put in a kid in relief in their Super Regional game tonight who had thrown 118 pitches two days before. One day of rest after 118 pitches, and he throws the kid back out there. Baffling. The pitcher looks like he's going to get the loss, too, as Fresno leads them 12-5 in the 9th.


Happens all the time in College in the playoffs as does 150-pitch outings during the regular season.

Kingspoint
06-10-2008, 08:08 PM
Pitchers are coddled so much these days because they were brought up coddled and to keep their arms healthy they need to continue to be coddled. Heck, I grew up playing baseball in the 90s and we had set rules on how often a pitcher could throw, how many innings and how much rest between games. These guys now are coming up with pitch counts, innings limits and so on. When you grow up like that, your arm is only capable of so much and you have to know its limits. This isn't 1960 anymore, guys aren't throwing 200 innings in high school, so when they get to the majors they can throw 300 like its nothing.

With this knowledge, Baker (and Narron before him) have/had no business extending Arroyo beyond 90 pitches, ever. He was always a 90-pitch max pitcher...about 1 inning less than your average Major League Starter. Arroyo is toast now.

Harang is also heading towards being toast now after leading the league the last three seasons in Innings pitched.

Stephenk29
06-10-2008, 08:12 PM
Played a college game this year where a kid threw over 170 pitches. Was throwing harder by the end of the game too. Sometimes there is the occasional rubber arm I guess.

redsfanmia
06-10-2008, 08:38 PM
Pitchers are coddled so much these days because they were brought up coddled and to keep their arms healthy they need to continue to be coddled. Heck, I grew up playing baseball in the 90s and we had set rules on how often a pitcher could throw, how many innings and how much rest between games. These guys now are coming up with pitch counts, innings limits and so on. When you grow up like that, your arm is only capable of so much and you have to know its limits. This isn't 1960 anymore, guys aren't throwing 200 innings in high school, so when they get to the majors they can throw 300 like its nothing.

Thats my point, why are kids coddled so much when they are brought up? I played ball in the 80's and I remember throwing until my arm just flat out ached and I would ice it and the next day be fine. The problem is that kids that can throw hard are seen as lottery tickets so they are not allowed to build any kind of endurance because of fear of injury and I understand that but they need be able to develop as a pitcher.

redsfanmia
06-10-2008, 08:43 PM
Pitchers are coddled so much these days because they were brought up coddled and to keep their arms healthy they need to continue to be coddled. Heck, I grew up playing baseball in the 90s and we had set rules on how often a pitcher could throw, how many innings and how much rest between games. These guys now are coming up with pitch counts, innings limits and so on. When you grow up like that, your arm is only capable of so much and you have to know its limits. This isn't 1960 anymore, guys aren't throwing 200 innings in high school, so when they get to the majors they can throw 300 like its nothing.

Doug you seem like a knowledgable guy so I will ask you this why cant pitchers be developed to throw like they did in the 1960's? It would seem to me that since we have better training techniques and better medical technology that pitchers would be able to throw harder than the guys from years ago and throw for longer periods of time than the old timers. Maybe I just dont get it but it would seem like athletes of today are bigger, faster, stronger and better than the old days but it has not translated into the pitchers of today.

George Anderson
06-10-2008, 11:21 PM
Was the Arizona St. player a senior? Was this player drafted? If the kid was a senior and not drafted then he likely is playing his very last days of organized baseball and if thats the case then I see no reason to worry if his arm is being abused.

Boston Red
06-10-2008, 11:32 PM
Sophomore Pac-10 pitcher of the year.

IslandRed
06-11-2008, 01:01 AM
Doug you seem like a knowledgable guy so I will ask you this why cant pitchers be developed to throw like they did in the 1960's? It would seem to me that since we have better training techniques and better medical technology that pitchers would be able to throw harder than the guys from years ago and throw for longer periods of time than the old timers. Maybe I just dont get it but it would seem like athletes of today are bigger, faster, stronger and better than the old days but it has not translated into the pitchers of today.

I'd argue that kids' arms got hurt just as much back then, but people didn't care. When there were half as many teams and it seemed like every kid in America played baseball and there was no draft and a team could sign as many pitchers as it wanted dirt cheap, they could afford to use Darwinism as a development strategy. It was primarily the rubber arms who survived to have real careers.

Nowadays, teams can only control so many arms what with the limited number of farm teams and the draft, they cost more to acquire, and they can't readily replace the high-ceiling arms that flame out. They can't afford to take a batch of pitchers and weed out everyone who's not a rubber-armed freak. They need to deliver the maximum number of healthy pitchers to the majors, and if that comes at the expense of high-inning durability, so be it.

Having said that, the pendulum has perhaps swung too far the other way. I think it's Leo Mazzone that's said that pitchers today might not be pitching too much like they used to, but they don't throw enough to build up arm strength as they should.

dougdirt
06-11-2008, 01:55 AM
Doug you seem like a knowledgable guy so I will ask you this why cant pitchers be developed to throw like they did in the 1960's? It would seem to me that since we have better training techniques and better medical technology that pitchers would be able to throw harder than the guys from years ago and throw for longer periods of time than the old timers. Maybe I just dont get it but it would seem like athletes of today are bigger, faster, stronger and better than the old days but it has not translated into the pitchers of today.

That medical technology tells us that kids shouldn't be throwing as much as people did back in the 50s-90's. Due to that fact kids aren't building up the arm endurance they once did (at least the ones that survived it). Little Timmy's arm hurt back in the 70s? Deal with it kid. Little Timmy's arm hurts now days? Take him to the MRI machine and see that his elbow has a snapped tendon in it, he gets surgery and doesn't play baseball for a year.

Kingspoint
06-11-2008, 05:36 AM
I'd argue that kids' arms got hurt just as much back then, but people didn't care. When there were half as many teams and it seemed like every kid in America played baseball and there was no draft and a team could sign as many pitchers as it wanted dirt cheap, they could afford to use Darwinism as a development strategy. It was primarily the rubber arms who survived to have real careers.

Nowadays, teams can only control so many arms what with the limited number of farm teams and the draft, they cost more to acquire, and they can't readily replace the high-ceiling arms that flame out. They can't afford to take a batch of pitchers and weed out everyone who's not a rubber-armed freak. They need to deliver the maximum number of healthy pitchers to the majors, and if that comes at the expense of high-inning durability, so be it.

Having said that, the pendulum has perhaps swung too far the other way. I think it's Leo Mazzone that's said that pitchers today might not be pitching too much like they used to, but they don't throw enough to build up arm strength as they should.

Don't forget to consider that there were four times as many professional teams back then then there are now. There just weren't as many teams in the National League and American League. The Pacific Coast League in the 20's, 30's, 40's, and 50's and the Negro Leagues were every bit as good as half of the teams in the Majors right now. Players in those leagues would pitch regularly over a dozen complete games a year and do it for many years in a row, never reaching the Majors.

I do think it's more like what Doug says. I know when I was a kid, we played baseball all the time as a pickup game with the neighborhood kids or with my friends. We probably played it a hundred days a year unorganized, and that was the 60's, using my Dad's bats from the 30's. Those bats were as hard as a rock. If you didn't grip the bat with all your might, your hand would sting terribly from the contact with the ball.

Men were just tougher in the past then they are now because they were tougher as kids.

Kids for a long time have been wimps.

Mom's drive them to their practices. Are you kidding me? In the 60's (and we were wimps compared to the kids before me), there wasn't any parent driving their child to practice. The last thing you wanted was to have your mom be at a practice unless you wanted to be a mama's boy. You walked or you rode your bike.

It's my guess that kids from poorer neighborhoods around the world would have a better chance of being able to throw for longer innings as they probably grew up in neighborhoods where the kids are a lot tougher.

Kingspoint
06-11-2008, 05:38 AM
That medical technology tells us that kids shouldn't be throwing as much as people did back in the 50s-90's. Due to that fact kids aren't building up the arm endurance they once did (at least the ones that survived it). Little Timmy's arm hurt back in the 70s? Deal with it kid. Little Timmy's arm hurts now days? Take him to the MRI machine and see that his elbow has a snapped tendon in it, he gets surgery and doesn't play baseball for a year.

The 50's to 90's? You're talking about pretty modern times there. There wasn't any stamina from baseball pitchers past the 60's, except for a few.

And the reason they shouldn't throw is because kids have been wimps for many a decade now. As a whole they're a shadow of the toughness that kids were from the 60's, and the kids from the 60's are a shadow of the toughness of what kids were in the 20's and 30's. Medical technology has nothing to do with it.

In the 50's and 60's as kids (ages 8-15) we got our butts out of bed at 4:00 a.m. 5 or 6 days every week during the summer and were at the busstop at 4:20 to go pick strawberries in June, Loganberries and raspberries in July, and Beans in August. Then we played baseball in the afternoon mostly every day after we got home about 2:30 from picking. Then, if we played baseball, we went to our practices after that around 5:00, and depending on our ages played for different amounts outside after dinner. Ask a kid to do that today and he'd be crying. In the wintertime everyone learned how to box at the local boxing gym. And my generation were wimps compared to my father's.