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WVRedsFan
06-10-2008, 11:31 PM
Is it the players? The manager? The coaches? The ownership?

Tonight, the Reds looked like they were going through the motions. It didn't help that the manager started a rookie at SS and batted him second, but it didn't matter. I've never seen more uninspired at-bats or horrible pitching performances.

Homer was bad. No fastball and nothing else to go along with it. He's a kid, but the opposing pitcher was too and he seemed to pitch a more consistent game. LIncoln looked good, but Weathers and Affeldt can't seem to go a game without allowing a run. In the meantime, the Cardinal relievers pitched 4 innings of 1-hit ball.

Bruce, Janish, Griffey, and Phillips swung at most anything that the youngster threw. Dunn walked twice, and why not? Why give him anything to hit when you can get everyone else out. Votto homered, but little else. Bako is Bako. The insult of insults was Corey Patterson pinch-hitting.

For many, this is a good team, but I disagree. First base has promise, but second base worries me. Phillips is so impatient and streaky, he can't be counted upon. Short is a question mark, and despite Edwin's good hitting night, he as inconsistent as Phillips with less punch.

The outfield is a mish-mash of flawed characters. Dunn is maybe the best player, but is batted so low in the order it's easy to not give him anything to hit. Bruce is a rookie, and despite his fast start (which is now getting less fast as games go on which is to be expected), he is what he is--learning. Junior is still productive, but why pitch to Griffey if you can get Phillips and Edwin out easily enough?

Catcher is just a train wreck. I like Paul Bako as a backup, but why 3 catchers and why two guys who can't hit (really, do you think Valentin is a good hitter?) and the same two are not light out fielders.

I won't go into pitching becaue it shows promise.

It's the same train wreck we've seen for the last 8 years. I really believe it's time to "blow it up" all the way, and I love most of the guys I mentioned above. It's time.

reds44
06-10-2008, 11:36 PM
Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, Bruce, Votto, Janish, Hererra, Bray all on the roster. Phillips and EE are still in their mid 20s, and there is no sign that this team is bring Junior and Dunn back. I think we are in the process of blowing it up...

WVRedsFan
06-10-2008, 11:48 PM
Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, Bruce, Votto, Janish, Hererra, Bray all on the roster. Phillips and EE are still in their mid 20s, and there is no sign that this team is bring Junior and Dunn back. I think we are in the process of blowing it up...

Hope you're right. Nothing would please me more.

Heath
06-10-2008, 11:55 PM
What's wrong is that it's baseball. They could go out and take the series away from the Cards the next two nights.

It's baseball, a marathon, not a sprint. Go get'em tommorrow.

westofyou
06-11-2008, 12:37 AM
Tonight, the Reds looked like they were going through the motions.

Their plane landed at 3am that morning, that has to play in to the fact that they "looked" like they were going through the motions... but seriously most picked them to linger about where they are either 4 down from .500 or 4 up... looks like a .500 team without a MLB SS to me.

11larkin11
06-11-2008, 12:43 AM
Really? This is the most talented Reds team I have seen in awhile, but the problem is whatever you want to call it: Bad Luck?Inconsistency. When the pitching is on, the hitting is off. When the hitting is on, the pitching is off. When two guys are hot, everyone else is ice cold. Almost everyone on this team are streak guys. We need consistent guys like Kepp and Volquez.

Kc61
06-11-2008, 12:48 AM
Their plane landed at 3am that morning, that has to play in to the fact that they "looked" like they were going through the motions... but seriously most picked them to linger about where they are either 4 down from .500 or 4 up... looks like a .500 team without a MLB SS to me.


I agree that coming off a long road trip and playing the next night may have had an impact.

Also consider that Hairston was out and Janish replaced him. Big offensive drop off. Hairston has been the key tablesetter the last few weeks. No Hairston, no Keppinger.

Phillips is in a slump. He is not an ideal cleanup hitter and is much more effective against lefties. Still, overall he had very good numbers last year. Maybe he's developed some bad habits, maybe he needs a game off, maybe he needs an adjustment. But I think he will start hitting again. He's a good player.

On top of all of this, the Reds threw Bailey tonight and he may just not be ready yet. He didn't do that well over this last several AAA outings. He's still working things out and, for whatever reason, his velocity appears off right now.

The team is definitely in transition and there will be rough spots. Still, you have to like the young talent and Jocketty hasn't really begun to make important changes.

WVRedsFan
06-11-2008, 12:57 AM
Really? This is the most talented Reds team I have seen in awhile, but the problem is whatever you want to call it: Bad Luck?Inconsistency. When the pitching is on, the hitting is off. When the hitting is on, the pitching is off. When two guys are hot, everyone else is ice cold. Almost everyone on this team are streak guys. We need consistent guys like Kepp and Volquez.

As my late Dad used to say..."a team with talent is not a winning team unless the talent works together." And that is where we are.


Their plane landed at 3am that morning, that has to play in to the fact that they "looked" like they were going through the motions... but seriously most picked them to linger about where they are either 4 down from .500 or 4 up... looks like a .500 team without a MLB SS to me.

Bingo! But I would add without a MLB catcher too. And bullpen (and it's much better which makes you wonder how we got through those other years).

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 12:58 AM
Is it the players? The manager? The coaches? The ownership?



I selectively picked out some post that I think are excellent points and that fits well with what we witness throughout various games and fits this thread and your questions.

I believe that I have them in the order that came as the game transpired.

To me it may be a small sample of just one game, yet it is also a micro of the macro, a biopsy of the core, that we see with the various problem parts that make up the whole, and these guys write and say it best in my opinion as the live game plays out.

These are not just some frustrated fans, there is too much truth in their observations for it to be boilerplate and bluster, and of course we each have witnessed much of what they have aptly processed through time spaced intervals of observations, research, wise value and comparison judgments and opined a reflection for our consumption.

I think that each of the posters do well in pointing out problem areas through their protests, challenges and objections that point out parts to the whole that have needed addressed and still do. From offense to coaching, management style and player resource utilization, to pitching, tonight the position defense escaped.

The Game Begins

We're facing a RHP who has never pitched in the majors, nor experienced much minor league success until this year. His success this year has been based largely on unsustainably low hit and HR rate. Also, the Cardinals have one LOOGY in their pen, Ron Villone.

So basically, we're giving Paul Janish more at bats than Adam Dunn or JOey Votto, because we're afraid that in a late game situation, Ron Villone will be brought in and we'd rather have the light hitting SS with a .741 minor league OPS and 25 major league at bats at the plate over either of our .900+ OPS corner bats. Riiiiiiiiiiight. Good thinking Dusty.


C'mon, that's not true. Sometimes you'll get get a grounder to 2B. Phillips seems to have adopted the approach that he's a power hitter. He'd be a lot better off swinging like he was a 15 HR guy. Just ask Chase Utley -- or Joey Votto for that matter.


It should be interesting with Bruce leading off, but Janish in the 2-hole? That strikes me as really strange. It's like "if you play shortstop, you bat second" regardless of ability. But what do I know?


All these kudos to the Cards are great and I disliked Bailey's performance as much as anyone.

But the Reds consistently fail to score runs against new pitchers and back of the rotation pitchers.

Early this year it seemed like the team was facing aces every day. The year started against Webb and Haren. Followed by other star pitchers. Reds had some problems with them.

But there is no excuse for a major league team to be flailing against the AA guy at Florida and now this guy Boggs, among others. Yes, Hairston and Kepp were both lost, but other teams have injuries too.

If the Reds can't hit Mitchell Boggs and Ryan Tucker and Phil Dumatrait, they are going no place. Fast.


One of the best hopes of this team producing anything approaching consistent offense the remainder of this season is getting Keppinger back soon, and pairing him with Bruce atop the order *everyday* from that point forward. A few OBP machine tabble setters will do wonders for the 3-6 portions of the lineup (and if we could only get Dunn moved to #3 in the process, we might actually be in business).


Phillips looks lost up there lately.


Year in and year out, the St. Louis Cardinals are the best managed and best coached (two very different concepts) team in the National League. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone get more out of less than Tony's staff, regardless of how much I dislike that franchise…


Giving away outs with the top of your order, while trailing by 3 runs in the 5th inning... have to love the self-defeatism that is Dustyball. Meanwhile, the major run scoring in this game has resulted from big blast(s) following *walks*. But, by all means, throw some more Outs away while trailing.


So true. From the time they milked months of 1100OPS baseball from a 36 year old Will Clark standing in for an injured McGwire in 2000 en route to the division crown... this team has found ways to coerce career best production from every cast-off, has-been, and never-was you can shake a stick at. It's simply amazing to behold.


Okay...this is getting out of hand. What is the problem with Bailey? I don't get it. How do you just lose 5-7 mph off your fastball at age 22?


Homer has absolutely no command at all. He lets go of the pitch and has no idea where it's going to go. Add to that very average stuff and you have an ineffective pitcher.

Admittedly, I've only seen Homer pitch on TV, but I've never seen this electric stuff he's supposed to have. Not once.


It has nothing to do with him having a bad attitude, bad work ethic, whatever right now.

He just has no stuff. He has a high 80's, low 90's fastball, an above average change up, and a curve ball he can't locate.

I have no idea what happend to his fastball.


When you can't locate an 88 mph straight fastball to the #9 batter, you've got problems.


I'm not making excuses for Homer, but they did ask him to change some things in his mechanics/delivery IIRC.


And it doesn't help his cause that the Reds wouldn't know pitching development if they fell over it.

But something is definaltey way out of wack with the young lad tonight.


Which again gets to my point.

Plenty of other teams find a way to mine what they can from both golden arms and so-so arms. Would Coffey or Elizardo Rameriz do better under the toutlage of Dave Duncan? Would Ryan Wagner have blossemed in the Atlanta farm system?

Maybe, maybe not.

But if you want to argue that the Reds have done a pretty decent job finding and developing pitching tallent based on the very early returns of one pitcher be my guest.


This game was over the second they pencilled in Bailey's name.

He's not a major league starting pitcher right now. And if he ever is it will have to be with a wholly different approach; no way in hell he becomes a bulldozing high-K pitcher with the stuff he possesses. If he sticks in the majors, he will have made a sea change.


You should include phrases like 'mentally tough', 'proficiency' and 'sound execution' to that description (even though I think Hairston's contributions are a blip on the radar screen, and somewhat irrelevant to the big picture). Virtually every year, regardless of the talent level of the cast and crew, the Cardinals coax exceptionally proficient and professional plate appearances out of their personnel. They pretty much execute in every aspect of the game, and as a result they exceed expectations, and their sum is greater than the parts therein.

By contrast, the mentally enervated Reds' team usually displays a production and consistency that greatly underperforms the sum of it's individual talents. It's yet another reason why the tactically flawed and plate discipline bereft Dusty Baker was a terrible fit for this squad.

The Game Ends Here.

These comments and reflections for me have a universal truth to too many of the Reds games, offensive players, defensive players and pitchers. The sheer repetiveness of the problem areas make it all to transparent for all to see except the management of this team and organization.

WVRedsFan
06-11-2008, 01:15 AM
Thanks, SF. I avoid the game threads anymore though I do step in a couple of times a game. And if Stormy is posting again, I'll try to make it more often.

Really, is thee a better poster with more insight than Stormy (Red Storm to an old timer like me)? He just seems to capture the essence of the game and is usually spot on.

I just don't see a cohesive club here? Our "franchise player" at 2nd is on and off. We have no reliable MLB shortstop. Our third baseman shows lack of judgment. Our outfield is disfunctional. The catching position is a total mess. Three fair to midding starters (Harang is excelllent most of the time, Arroyo is on and off and Volquez is the real deal), a kid and a prayer to round out the starters won't get it. The bullpen is based on a few retreads and a $46 million closer who closes so rarely that he gets rusty.

The young core is encouraging, but the rest is fodder. You can build around Votto, Phillips (provided he can be coached to be more patient), Bruce and Dunn, but you can't deny that our catching corps is way below average and we desparately need Keppinger back for offense and middling defense (I can take offense and middling defense before I can take no offense and middling defense).

I am souring on Dustyball because it seems he just is so stuck with things that don't work (his pairing of Hariston and Bruce at the top of the lineup was good, but putting Janish in the 2 hole was just ludicrous). I have high hopes that Jocketty will make the moves we need, but I'm growing impatient, which is a virtue seldom seen in a woman but never in an old man...

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 01:44 AM
Thanks, SF. I avoid the game threads anymore though I do step in a couple of times a game. And if Stormy is posting again, I'll try to make it more often.

Really, is thee a better poster with more insight than Stormy (Red Storm to an old timer like me)? He just seems to capture the essence of the game and is usually spot on.

I just don't see a cohesive club here? Our "franchise player" at 2nd is on and off. We have no reliable MLB shortstop. Our third baseman shows lack of judgment. Our outfield is disfunctional. The catching position is a total mess. Three fair to midding starters (Harang is excelllent most of the time, Arroyo is on and off and Volquez is the real deal), a kid and a prayer to round out the starters won't get it. The bullpen is based on a few retreads and a $46 million closer who closes so rarely that he gets rusty.

The young core is encouraging, but the rest is fodder. You can build around Votto, Phillips (provided he can be coached to be more patient), Bruce and Dunn, but you can't deny that our catching corps is way below average and we desparately need Keppinger back for offense and middling defense (I can take offense and middling defense before I can take no offense and middling defense).
I am souring on Dustyball because it seems he just is so stuck with things that don't work (his pairing of Hariston and Bruce at the top of the lineup was good, but putting Janish in the 2 hole was just ludicrous). I have high hopes that Jocketty will make the moves we need, but I'm growing impatient, which is a virtue seldom seen in a woman but never in an old man...

I only object to your use of the word patient, (I know you speak of the players here)(yet we fans have been asked to be patient so much I am conditioned to respond without thinking) when each of us have been waiting for over seven years, patient seems inappropriate to me anymore, after years and years of waiting, and if we were completely open we could say we have been patiently waiting since November of 1990, 18 years. We have been patient, it is past time for management to deliver the product.

I can be patient with children, adults who don’t know or understand something, I can be patient waiting for Christmas, I refuse to be patient with management, any management who mismanage people and resources, and then expect other’s or their patrons to be patient while funding and paying for that managements mistakes, year after year, even if management is transferring from group to group.

I honestly thought that they, the posters above were speaking volumes and communicating the deeper realities about this club and had genuine insights to this baseball teams various malady’s and how those play together to make up the whole as with this team, it is not just one problem or fix, which it takes a group to communicate of its problems and needs.

To me as I read them it was as if they were painting a very big picture, and I thought how true, and how often we see this even though the positions, portions and names change. I hope no one minds that I posted those, I just thought that they combined to say it so well.

Mario-Rijo
06-11-2008, 01:49 AM
As my late Dad used to say..."a team with talent is not a winning team unless the talent works together." And that is where we are.

That's the nail on the head right there! Your father was a very bright man WVRF, but you already knew that. :thumbup:



"The way a team plays as a whole determines its success. You may have the greatest bunch of individual stars in the world, but if they don't play together, the club won't be worth a dime."

Babe Ruth


Also let me add teamwork or not reflects your leadership, which we lack on the field.

reds44
06-11-2008, 02:31 AM
Good stuff, SF.

Tonight, the Cardinals came into a plan against Bailey. They knew he loved throwing first pitch fastballs to try to get ahead in the count, and because of that you saw a lot of first pitch swinging. The first time thru the order, that really didn't work very well. However, it became clear Homer wasn't getting anything over but his fastball (which wasn't that good to begin with), and they changed their gameplan and sat on his fastball. And obviously, it worked.

Now flip to the Reds. First inning against a pitcher making his first career start. Bruce with a good AB as a leadoff hitter working a 3-2 count before grounding out. Janish comes up and walks on four pitches. Griffey comes up, and walks on 4 pitches. Phillips comes up, and the first pitch is a ball. So Boggs has thrown 9 straight balls, and 12 of his first 15 pitches are balls. I'm all for looking for something to rip, but Phillips goes up there and swings at a pitch that is a borderline pitch at best and flies out to RF. While it was only one AB, the AB kind of set the tone for the game.

Fast forward to either the 6th or 7th inning. 1st and 2nd 1 out with Paul Bako up in a 5-2 game. He works himself into a really good 2-0 hitters count. What does he do? Hits a check swing grounder to SS that ends up a force out.

Now go the 9th, Reds are down by 5. Edwin Encarnacion up with a 3-1 count. You need baserunners. He gets a high fastball that would have been ball 4, but instead he's trying to blast one into the 2nd deck and swings and misses. Next pitch, called strike 3 at the knees.

I don't know if it's the players, manager, or both, but this team sometimes seems like it's going without a plan. Granted, these are individual ABs, but it's still a team sport. Rarely do you see Reds hitters, as a team, have a plan. Phillps is going to be Phillips and hack. Dunn is going to work the count and normally either K, walk, or go yard. EE if he's on will hit and if he's not he'll pop up early in the count.

It's rare where you see the Reds as a team do what the Cardinals did tonight. Baseball is a team sport, and very rarely do the Reds make each other better.

Mario-Rijo
06-11-2008, 02:57 AM
Good stuff, SF.

Tonight, the Cardinals came into a plan against Bailey. They knew he loved throwing first pitch fastballs to try to get ahead in the count, and because of that you saw a lot of first pitch swinging. The first time thru the order, that really didn't work very well. However, it became clear Homer wasn't getting anything over but his fastball (which wasn't that good to begin with), and they changed their gameplan and sat on his fastball. And obviously, it worked.

Now flip to the Reds. First inning against a pitcher making his first career start. Bruce with a good AB as a leadoff hitter working a 3-2 count before grounding out. Janish comes up and walks on four pitches. Griffey comes up, and walks on 4 pitches. Phillips comes up, and the first pitch is a ball. So Boggs has thrown 9 straight balls, and 12 of his first 15 pitches are balls. I'm all for looking for something to rip, but Phillips goes up there and swings at a pitch that is a borderline pitch at best and flies out to RF. While it was only one AB, the AB kind of set the tone for the game.

Fast forward to either the 6th or 7th inning. 1st and 2nd 1 out with Paul Bako up in a 5-2 game. He works himself into a really good 2-0 hitters count. What does he do? Hits a check swing grounder to SS that ends up a force out.

Now go the 9th, Reds are down by 5. Edwin Encarnacion up with a 3-1 count. You need baserunners. He gets a high fastball that would have been ball 4, but instead he's trying to blast one into the 2nd deck and swings and misses. Next pitch, called strike 3 at the knees.

I don't know if it's the players, manager, or both, but this team sometimes seems like it's going without a plan. Granted, these are individual ABs, but it's still a team sport. Rarely do you see Reds hitters, as a team, have a plan. Phillps is going to be Phillips and hack. Dunn is going to work the count and normally either K, walk, or go yard. EE if he's on will hit and if he's not he'll pop up early in the count.

It's rare where you see the Reds as a team do what the Cardinals did tonight. Baseball is a team sport, and very rarely do the Reds make each other better.

Good post and I agree with it all. To my mind it's simple the whole organization needs a reality check, sans maybe Jocketty who I don't yet know enough about to form an opinion on.

BobC has made a few really poor recent decisions. Krivsky shouldn't have been let go at least until the end of the season and Baker was a poor match for this team (and really for any team). Krivsky had made some major mistakes in hiring coaches/scouts perhaps as well (although I blame Dusty on BC, no matter what the word is). I say perhaps because I am assuming that one of our major flaws is advanced scouting. He also did have some poor roster construction as well.

The major league instruction is lame (and really has been for many years) pretty much all the way around. Either that or the players don't listen which I find pretty likely as well (probably a lot of both). And we really don't have any respectable vocal leaders on the field to speak of.

The bottom line is everyone needs to be on the same page but are not and that's obvious because if they were it wouldn't look like this out there. Hopefully Jocketty is the guy who can pull it all together, if not it will be more of the same for the next 3+ years. I know some might see this as throwing in the proverbial towel but it's not, we have a bright future if we can find someone to lead us down the right path.

jojo
06-11-2008, 06:19 AM
What's wrong?

I don't think anything is wrong. Going into the season the Reds roster looked like .500 talent that was roughly 9 games worse than the Cubs. In other words, they needed everything to go right for them to be serious contenders (with a little help from their friends too). Their April pretty much shot down their chances to contend barring injury to the front runners and as a whole they've gotten everything to go right with some guys and not so much with other guys.

Basically, they're about where they should be I think.

The Reds may not be a mover and shaker this year but I think they will provide us with some fun baseball to watch. Ultimately they might not even have a winning season but, frankly, I've found them to be much, much, more compelling this season with legitimate reason to hope for improvement next year.

PuffyPig
06-11-2008, 08:25 AM
Bruce, Janish, Griffey, and Phillips swung at most anything that the youngster threw.


Considering Boggs threrw about as many balls as strikes, this is just not accurate.

redsmetz
06-11-2008, 08:31 AM
It's interesting what our perception is at times. Just one example, you mentioned that "Weathers and Affeldt can't seem to go a game without allowing a run" and yet, going back and looking at their stats on the team's website, shows that the runs they each gave up were the first runs they've both given up in five games. In his last ten appearances, Weathers has only given up one run in three games. Affeldt had one rotten outing on May 27th, otherwise he's matched Weathers. That sounds like the model of consistancy.

These games happen. I know it's frustrating because this team has played in fits and starts all season long. And like others, I'd like to never see Corey Patterson in a Reds uniform ever again (although he wasn't cause of last night's problems).

But I agree with others that we're looking at the assemblage of a considerably amount of talent. Yes, some of it's streaky and some may not pan out as much as we would hope, but overall, I like the direction of this team.

bucksfan2
06-11-2008, 08:50 AM
Is it the players? The manager? The coaches? The ownership?

Tonight, the Reds looked like they were going through the motions. It didn't help that the manager started a rookie at SS and batted him second, but it didn't matter. I've never seen more uninspired at-bats or horrible pitching performances.

Homer was bad. No fastball and nothing else to go along with it. He's a kid, but the opposing pitcher was too and he seemed to pitch a more consistent game. LIncoln looked good, but Weathers and Affeldt can't seem to go a game without allowing a run. In the meantime, the Cardinal relievers pitched 4 innings of 1-hit ball.

Bruce, Janish, Griffey, and Phillips swung at most anything that the youngster threw. Dunn walked twice, and why not? Why give him anything to hit when you can get everyone else out. Votto homered, but little else. Bako is Bako. The insult of insults was Corey Patterson pinch-hitting.

For many, this is a good team, but I disagree. First base has promise, but second base worries me. Phillips is so impatient and streaky, he can't be counted upon. Short is a question mark, and despite Edwin's good hitting night, he as inconsistent as Phillips with less punch.

The outfield is a mish-mash of flawed characters. Dunn is maybe the best player, but is batted so low in the order it's easy to not give him anything to hit. Bruce is a rookie, and despite his fast start (which is now getting less fast as games go on which is to be expected), he is what he is--learning. Junior is still productive, but why pitch to Griffey if you can get Phillips and Edwin out easily enough?

Catcher is just a train wreck. I like Paul Bako as a backup, but why 3 catchers and why two guys who can't hit (really, do you think Valentin is a good hitter?) and the same two are not light out fielders.

I won't go into pitching becaue it shows promise.

It's the same train wreck we've seen for the last 8 years. I really believe it's time to "blow it up" all the way, and I love most of the guys I mentioned above. It's time.

I was going to start a top like this but you beat me to it. I was at the game and the reds were embarasing. There is a huge difference between the reds and the cards and it isn't talent. Here are some of my thoughts.

-The Cards have been relevant for the past decacde and it isn't because their talent was that much better, they play the game the right way. They hustle, they know what they are doing in every situation they get into.

-The Cards worked the count last night. They went up there for every at bat with a purpose. They knew Homer had control problems so they made sure they worked him.

-The reds on the other hand swung at everything. The pitcher had just walked a batter on 5 pitches and went 1-0 on Phillips. Instead of being paitent Phillips swung at the next pitch and grounded out. The only pitch Phillips should have swunt at was one he could drive.

-I give a pass to Bruce, Votto, and Janish last night. Bruce swings with a purpose on every pitch. He is very aggressive but needs to learn a little paitence. Votto is in a similar mold. IMO aside from Dunn Janish had the best atbats last night. These three guys are young and need to play and learn.

-Phillips, EE, and to some extent Dunn swing at so many pitches that they can do nothing with. There is nothing worse than seing Phillips or EE waive or pop up a hitters pitch that they have no business swinging at.

-Do the reds have an idea of what they are trying to do at the plate? Rookie pitcher who put two aboard in the first two innings gives up 2 runs in 5-6 innings. Why didn't Dusty tell one of his hitters to go up there and get the pitcher to throw as many pitches as possible? I am sure that LaRussa told one of his batters to do so.

-Note to Votto watch Pujols play 1B and immitate that. I have never seen a more alert 1B than Pujols. On every put out he makes he is aware is looking to throw behind a runner if the runner lapses. Bruce darn near got his pocket picked by Pujols.

-Is it time to move EE? The guy just can't seem to make the routine play. His error lead to an extended inning which gave up 4 runs. Homer won't tell you this but I am sure it effected him. He is 22 years old stuff like this will effect him. When Edwin isn't hitting, which has been this entire year, he doesn't deserve a spot on the field.

-PLAY THE GAME THE RIGHT WAY AND PLAY HARD. Thats is all I ask.

Ltlabner
06-11-2008, 08:54 AM
Wasn't this question answered about 5 "what's wrong" threads ago?

Heath
06-11-2008, 09:39 AM
-PLAY THE GAME THE RIGHT WAY AND PLAY HARD. Thats is all I ask.

Well, how do you define "the right way"? It's not like they all ran to third base first and the shortstop isn't over picking daisies in right field. Technically, they had three outs every inning, and they hit and fielded nine innings.

And what quantitative measure can you use to "play hard".

There's 162 games a year. The best anyone's done is 118 wins a year. Whether or not lackluster performances are due to travel constraints and just overall blahness, it's hard to understand those statements.

lollipopcurve
06-11-2008, 09:53 AM
Welsh made a point last night, in comparing the Cards and Reds, that I agree with 100%. The Cards have had continuity -- with the exception of Jocketty leaving there last year, the ownership/FO/field staff has been comprised of most of the same people for a long time now. When you have that kind consistency -- and the people are competent -- it allows you to make sensible plans and follow through, instruct with consistency, build trust, etc. Minnesota is another example of an organization that has had a good track record of continuity.

The Reds, well... they may be the most turbulent, discontinuous organization over the last decade in all of major league baseball. My sense is that we may have suffered the major earthquake (the ownership changes), but that the aftershocks may not be over yet (I don't know if Baker will be here beyond his 3-year contract, and I doubt Jocketty really wants to be a GM at this stage of his career). Still, a solid young core of players -- pitchers and position players -- is here to build on, and that hasn't been the case for a long time.

bucksfan2
06-11-2008, 09:57 AM
Well, how do you define "the right way"? It's not like they all ran to third base first and the shortstop isn't over picking daisies in right field. Technically, they had three outs every inning, and they hit and fielded nine innings.

And what quantitative measure can you use to "play hard".

There's 162 games a year. The best anyone's done is 118 wins a year. Whether or not lackluster performances are due to travel constraints and just overall blahness, it's hard to understand those statements.

There is no number or stat you can put behind "playing hard" but if you were at last nights game you could tell a huge difference between the two teams on the field.

Is it really too much to ask to adapt to each situation you are put into. The Reds faced a rookie pitcher who had control problems. To every baseball fan that means they need to be paitent at the plate. They need to work the counts. What did the Reds do? They were aggressive. They were swinging for the fences. They were swinging at bad pitches. They did everything they could to let the pitcher off the hook. "Playing Hard" means making routine plays Edwin!

Maybe there isn't a quantative way to measure this. However it seems like the Cards always play the game the right way. The talent difference hasn't been all that much between the Reds and Cards over the past decade but the Cards have won a WS and have been contenders year in year out and the Reds, well they are still looking for their first winning season since 2000.

jojo
06-11-2008, 10:07 AM
Well, how do you define "the right way"? It's not like they all ran to third base first and the shortstop isn't over picking daisies in right field. Technically, they had three outs every inning, and they hit and fielded nine innings.

And what quantitative measure can you use to "play hard".

There's 162 games a year. The best anyone's done is 118 wins a year. Whether or not lackluster performances are due to travel constraints and just overall blahness, it's hard to understand those statements.

I think it's subjective but I will add this-fans who follow a winning team seem to generally think their team plays hard.

Managers of losing teams (especially those on the hot seat) tend to be convinced their guys are playing their butt's off and it's an injustice that it's not translating.

Lee Elia has suggested that Cubs fans are unqualified to define what working hard means.

redsmetz
06-11-2008, 10:11 AM
Is it time to move EE? The guy just can't seem to make the routine play. His error lead to an extended inning which gave up 4 runs. Homer won't tell you this but I am sure it effected him. He is 22 years old stuff like this will effect him. When Edwin isn't hitting, which has been this entire year, he doesn't deserve a spot on the field.

-PLAY THE GAME THE RIGHT WAY AND PLAY HARD. Thats is all I ask.

Thing is, Edwin didn't have an error last night. It was ruled a caught ball, batter out and the runner returned safely to second when Encarnacion dropped the ball in his transfer. Head's up call by the 2nd base umpire.

Now, it's very unfortunate that it happened because we had the base runner dead on that one, ending the inning. Homer has no one but himself to blame for having two outs and failing to get anyone out without letting up any runs. How do you hang that on EE?

One thing I saw from Bailey that I liked very much was him making a point of thanking Janish and Phillips for their double play.

Personally, while frustrating, I chalk it up as just one of those games. I'd like to reduce that number, but they do happen.

flyer85
06-11-2008, 10:15 AM
Lee Elia has suggested that Cubs fans are unqualified to define what working hard means.He might have had a point about those Cubs fans that were always there in the days before night baseball at Wrigley. One of the great tirades in all of sports.

westofyou
06-11-2008, 10:19 AM
Thing is, Edwin didn't have an error last night. It was ruled a caught ball, batter out and the runner returned safely to second when Encarnacion dropped the ball in his transfer

Mmmmmmmmm facts....... yummy.

Kc61
06-11-2008, 10:20 AM
Welsh made a point last night, in comparing the Cards and Reds, that I agree with 100%. The Cards have had continuity -- with the exception of Jocketty leaving there last year, the ownership/FO/field staff has been comprised of most of the same people for a long time now. When you have that kind consistency -- and the people are competent -- it allows you to make sensible plans and follow through, instruct with consistency, build trust, etc. Minnesota is another example of an organization that has had a good track record of continuity.

The Reds, well... they may be the most turbulent, discontinuous organization over the last decade in all of major league baseball. My sense is that we may have suffered the major earthquake (the ownership changes), but that the aftershocks may not be over yet (I don't know if Baker will be here beyond his 3-year contract, and I doubt Jocketty really wants to be a GM at this stage of his career). Still, a solid young core of players -- pitchers and position players -- is here to build on, and that hasn't been the case for a long time.

I heard that comment about continuity and disagree with it. Look at the Cards lineup, it's a very different one than in past years, so is it's pitching staff. Not a lot of continuity. Plus, the GM just left. Yes, the field boss is the same. Look at the Boston Celtics, basically a whole new team this year, little continuity, playing for a championship. I don't think the Cards and Reds differ because of continuity. In sports today, teams change often.

The difference I see is that all the Cards players seem ready to contribute as major leaguers now, either as stars or as role players. Somebody yesterday wisely posted that the Cards are full of "scrappy" players; if they were Reds we'd be joking about those guys. But they are ready to contribute now either as main players/pitchers or filling a role.

The Reds would be a better offensive team with "scrappy" Hairston and Keppinger (if healthy) both in the lineup batting one and two with a veteran .500 pitcher as the fifth starter.

The Reds team uses major league games for on the job training, which is ok as long as the player is worth the pain. Cueto seems to be, Volquez surely is. Is EE? Is Bailey at this stage? Is Votto? In Votto's case, yes for sure, but he's still learning defensively and that affects games.

And the Reds also use some players/pitchers whose best years are well behind them. The Cards let go of Jim Edmunds, would the Reds have done so?

The difference I see is that the Cards guys, every year, seem almost uniformly to be sound, major league players either stars or helpers, ready to contribute now.

Mario-Rijo
06-11-2008, 10:22 AM
There is no number or stat you can put behind "playing hard" but if you were at last nights game you could tell a huge difference between the two teams on the field.

Is it really too much to ask to adapt to each situation you are put into. The Reds faced a rookie pitcher who had control problems. To every baseball fan that means they need to be paitent at the plate. They need to work the counts. What did the Reds do? They were aggressive. They were swinging for the fences. They were swinging at bad pitches. They did everything they could to let the pitcher off the hook. "Playing Hard" means making routine plays Edwin!

Maybe there isn't a quantative way to measure this. However it seems like the Cards always play the game the right way. The talent difference hasn't been all that much between the Reds and Cards over the past decade but the Cards have won a WS and have been contenders year in year out and the Reds, well they are still looking for their first winning season since 2000.

Every time the Cards come to town I think of 2 things. #1.) How they will leave town with at least 2 more wins than they showed up with. And #2) How they must be in their locker room laughing at us and saying "man the Pirates are more fundamentally sound, too bad for them they have a ton of talent".

flyer85
06-11-2008, 10:23 AM
with a veteran .500 pitcher as the fifth starter. Josh Fogg, where are you? :D

Kc61
06-11-2008, 10:26 AM
Josh Fogg, where are you? :D


I actually believe Josh will be back for another try. Not saying I was thinking Fogg when I asked for a veteran .500 pitcher. Isn't Sabathia about .500?

flyer85
06-11-2008, 10:32 AM
I actually believe Josh will be back for another try.I do as well. He certainly isn't a reliever.

Chip R
06-11-2008, 11:28 AM
I think it's subjective but I will add this-fans who follow a winning team seem to generally think their team plays hard.

Managers of losing teams (especially those on the hot seat) tend to be convinced their guys are playing their butt's off and it's an injustice that it's not translating.



Great point. And I would add that fans of a losing team seem to exaggerate their faults. Nothing seemed wrong with the effort and the performance during the last homestand. As I told REDREAD in another thread, when the team is winning, everything seems better. The players are smarter and more talented, the manager makes better moves, the beer is colder and tastes better and seems like more of a bargain. Ticket prices seem to be more affordable and your seat at the ballpark is better.

IslandRed
06-11-2008, 11:57 AM
I don't think anything is wrong. Going into the season the Reds roster looked like .500 talent that was roughly 9 games worse than the Cubs. In other words, they needed everything to go right for them to be serious contenders (with a little help from their friends too). Their April pretty much shot down their chances to contend barring injury to the front runners and as a whole they've gotten everything to go right with some guys and not so much with other guys.

Basically, they're about where they should be I think.

The Reds may not be a mover and shaker this year but I think they will provide us with some fun baseball to watch. Ultimately they might not even have a winning season but, frankly, I've found them to be much, much, more compelling this season with legitimate reason to hope for improvement next year.

That's about how I feel about it also. We've actually played slightly above .500 ball the last six weeks, and now we have Jay Bruce to watch. I'm not thinking playoffs or anything, mind you. But I actually like the club's long-term prospects more today than I did in spring training.

paulrichjr
06-11-2008, 12:43 PM
This team is much better than they were the last 3 years. The problem they have is that the division is much better. It took a .500 record to almost win the division very recently. Now that the Reds are close to playing .500 ball it will take much more than that to win. I guess it is that time of year again...Talking about who to trade at the deadline instead of who to obtain - Oh what fun.

RedsManRick
06-11-2008, 12:45 PM
At the risk of over simplifying... Dusty Baker. If you watched his tenure in Chicago, this season should look (and sound) VERY familiar.

edabbs44
06-11-2008, 12:56 PM
What's wrong? The team isn't very good.

When Bob and Wayne came to town they should have realized that Rome wasn't built in a day and proceeded as such, instead of wasting money and resources in pretending like they had a shot at legitimately competing. They would be in year 3 of the rebuilding plan with similar past results while being better positioned for the future.

The biggest problem is the unreasonable expectations. Temper your expectations and they look better.

redsmetz
06-11-2008, 01:04 PM
At the risk of over simplifying... Dusty Baker. If you watched his tenure in Chicago, this season should look (and sound) VERY familiar.

Hmmm, on this date in his first year in Chicago, the Cubs were tied for 1st place in the Central Division on their way to winning the division title. I'd take that presently.

westofyou
06-11-2008, 01:06 PM
Hmmm, on this date in his first year in Chicago, the Cubs were tied for 1st place in the Central Division on their way to winning the division title. I'd take that presently.

I hear he lived on the coast before that...

redsmetz
06-11-2008, 01:06 PM
What's wrong? The team isn't very good.

When Bob and Wayne came to town they should have realized that Rome wasn't built in a day and proceeded as such, instead of wasting money and resources in pretending like they had a shot at legitimately competing. They would be in year 3 of the rebuilding plan with similar past results while being better positioned for the future.

The biggest problem is the unreasonable expectations. Temper your expectations and they look better.

But the way I've seen, it were ARE in year three of rebuilding and have a heckuva foundation down. They've had to put a team on the field. The moves haven't been perfect, but the organization has advanced from where they were when C took over.

redsmetz
06-11-2008, 01:09 PM
I hear he lived on the coast before that...

Funny thing you should mention that, but I was looking up his first year in SF while you were typing this. On this date in 1993, the Giants were in 1st place in the Western Division on their way to finishing 2nd to Atlanta with 103 wins (the second best record in ML baseball with nothing to show for it).

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 01:19 PM
I agree that coming off a long road trip and playing the next night may have had an impact.

The team is definitely in transition and there will be rough spots. Still, you have to like the young talent and Jocketty hasn't really begun to make important changes.

:clap:


What's wrong?
I don't think anything is wrong.
The Reds may not be a mover and shaker this year but I think they will provide us with some fun baseball to watch. Ultimately they might not even have a winning season but, frankly, I've found them to be much, much, more compelling this season with legitimate reason to hope for improvement next year.

:clap:


It's interesting what our perception is at times
These games happen. I know it's frustrating because this team has played in fits and starts all season long. And like others, I'd like to never see Corey Patterson in a Reds uniform ever again (although he wasn't cause of last night's problems).

But I agree with others that we're looking at the assemblage of a considerably amount of talent. Yes, some of it's streaky and some may not pan out as much as we would hope, but overall, I like the direction of this team.

:clap:



The difference I see is that all the Cards players seem ready to contribute as major leaguers now, either as stars or as role players. Somebody yesterday wisely posted that the Cards are full of "scrappy" players; if they were Reds we'd be joking about those guys. But they are ready to contribute now either as main players/pitchers or filling a role.

The Reds would be a better offensive team with "scrappy" Hairston and Keppinger (if healthy) both in the lineup batting one and two with a veteran .500 pitcher as the fifth starter.

The Reds team uses major league games for on the job training, which is ok as long as the player is worth the pain. Cueto seems to be, Volquez surely is. Is EE? Is Bailey at this stage? Is Votto? In Votto's case, yes for sure, but he's still learning defensively and that affects games.

And the Reds also use some players/pitchers whose best years are well behind them. The Cards let go of Jim Edmunds, would the Reds have done so?

The difference I see is that the Cards guys, every year, seem almost uniformly to be sound, major league players either stars or helpers, ready to contribute now.

:clap:


These are the positive and constructive occurrences with the Reds that we see and appreciate that are in existence and have become a sign that the team is moving forward and should continue too with Jocketty making better choices, decisions, adjustments and adaptations on top of the foundation that has been given to his trust.

The two sided vision from one to the other exposed by the fans have a coexistence and is to be expected. One the growth and promising development of a very good team in the making, the other residue from the old and defeated that has yet to be dealt with but is in the works to be renovated with future upgrades when timing has opened, lent itself for Jocketty to do so.

In the meantime the management, coaches and players need to be seen doing what has been empowered in them to do, they should be making the adjustments and corrections that are within their abilities and powers to do now forward until Jocketty can have the opportunity to make the necessary changes to take the team above and beyond inconsistencies that lead to, simply put, that have led them to losing more games than they win
.
How one appreciates and views Dunn, Volquez, Harang, Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Phillips and Keppinger is as real and valid as how one, who passionately questions how long are they, the Reds, willing to accept on the job training from a Belisle, Bailey, Encarncion, Coffey, and when can one expect the Reds to distance themselves from that which needs to be extracted from the mediocrity or below as routinely witnessed from an underachieving group such as Fogg, Patterson, Ross, Valentin, Bako, Freel, Hopper, and Majewski remodeling the memory of seven long years of their predecessors.

There are two very distinct sides to this team, both of which are a part that makes it presence known. Two that are in conflict with achieving the goals of a better team. The more weightier being that part which concludes with results that are stated within the win, loss column becoming a continuous history. One group of fans rightly believes that the scales need to be tipped in the favor of win, the other side rightly expresses a desire and belief that the scales are being tipped in the favor of win. How can we not agree with both and naturally we will be seen at various times voicing both sides at a time, one is the sour, one is the sweet and we believe that the sour will be dealt with, it is just that some of us believe that even though there are some things that the Reds cannot do anything about at this time, that the Reds need to be doing now, what they can do.

The Reds surely run both hot and cold in their present state as the quote below perceives within their fans who follow them in response to their journey on the playing field.


“I would add that fans of a losing team seem to exaggerate their faults. Nothing seemed wrong with the effort and the performance during the last homestand.” “when the team is winning, everything seems better. The players are smarter and more talented, the manager makes better moves, the beer is colder and tastes better and seems like more of a bargain. Ticket prices seem to be more affordable and your seat at the ballpark is better.”

Nothing was wrong with the results that the performance brought with the last home stand, sometimes the competitors and opposition are more compliant than others.

It’s just that some days

Sometimes the beer runs cold. Sometimes the beer runs warm.

Sometimes the ticket prices are affordable, sometimes the ticket prices are not.

Sometimes the players are smarter and more talented, some days they are not.

Sometimes the manager gets out of the way, some days that manager gets in the way.


What's wrong? The team isn't very good.



The bottom line.

REDREAD
06-11-2008, 01:19 PM
The insult of insults was Corey Patterson pinch-hitting.

Who else was left? I didn't follow the game in great detail, as it was just background noise, but didn't Patterson PH in the 9th, when the game was pretty much lost anyhow? I mean, the win expectancy was pretty low at that point. If Valentine hadn't been used yet (I don't know) the outcome was unlikely to be different..

Homer lost the game, IMO. Things like Janish batting #2 and Patterson making one of the last outs of the game are minor in comparison.

edabbs44
06-11-2008, 01:23 PM
But the way I've seen, it were ARE in year three of rebuilding and have a heckuva foundation down. They've had to put a team on the field. The moves haven't been perfect, but the organization has advanced from where they were when C took over.

I agree with that, but I just think that the team would have been even further along. They would probably have more prospects in the system and greater payroll flexibility if they didn't try and compete while trying to rebuild.

While the future looks brighter than it has in a while, it would look even more favorable if they came to grips with the situation a bit earlier.

REDREAD
06-11-2008, 01:35 PM
I agree with that, but I just think that the team would have been even further along. They would probably have more prospects in the system and greater payroll flexibility if they didn't try and compete while trying to rebuild..

They could've made better decisions about the FAs they signed as well.
Like signing Bradford instead of Stanton. If nothing else, that would've made the rebuilding more tolerable to endure. It would've also given them more trade flexiblity.

While we have some young talent at the ML level, we aren't very deep. With 13 pending FAs (I think that's right), there's going to be a lot of holes to fill this winter. We don't exactly have any surplus talent to trade either (that other teams want).

westofyou
06-11-2008, 01:39 PM
Like signing Bradford instead of Stanton.

One was LH (Stanton), and one was RH (Bradford) and Todd Coffey and Weathers had that slot, as well as a hope that Majewski could rebound.

While signing Stanton was not the right choice the comparison doesn't work, they throw with different arms and that's the reason they never pursued Bradford and why they signed Stanton.

top6
06-11-2008, 02:02 PM
At the risk of over simplifying... Dusty Baker. If you watched his tenure in Chicago, this season should look (and sound) VERY familiar.
This team was bad before Dusty and will be bad after he leaves.

There is no plan, and it starts at the top. The owner wants to "WIN NOW!!!!!!!!" and quits on any GM who doesn't bring him instant gratification. The GMs have not been all that good, but what can you do when you are a small market and your crazy owner is demanding that you win THIS YEAR? I guess you sign a "name" manager and then just randomly sign the best pitcher you can afford, then pray it somehow works out.

If you have a bad April, though, you will be fired, so instead of playing the great rookie who dominated AAA but had a rough spring, you sign a veteran CF because, again, you don't have time to let any young players develop.

Also, the public face of your team whines and complains about every young hitter that doesn't hit .500, so that makes it even harder to rebuild. Oh, he also hates your best offensive player for some reason, and the fans do to. So he will probably be gone after this year, as will your veteran star player. Sounds like a great time to rebuild! But, of course, you now have an old closer making $10+ million a year and an overpaid manager who prefers to manage veterans. Sounds awesome.

No plan in the owner's booth, the GM's office or in the manager's head ultimately leads to no plan at the plate.

bucksfan2
06-11-2008, 02:05 PM
These are the positive and constructive occurrences with the Reds that we see and appreciate that are in existence and have become a sign that the team is moving forward and should continue too with Jocketty making better choices, decisions, adjustments and adaptations on top of the foundation that has been given to his trust.

The two sided vision from one to the other exposed by the fans have a coexistence and is to be expected. One the growth and promising development of a very good team in the making, the other residue from the old and defeated that has yet to be dealt with but is in the works to be renovated with future upgrades when timing has opened, lent itself for Jocketty to do so.

In the meantime the management, coaches and players need to be seen doing what has been empowered in them to do, they should be making the adjustments and corrections that are within their abilities and powers to do now forward until Jocketty can have the opportunity to make the necessary changes to take the team above and beyond inconsistencies that lead to, simply put, that have led them to losing more games than they win
.
How one appreciates and views Dunn, Volquez, Harang, Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Phillips and Keppinger is as real and valid as how one, who passionately questions how long are they, the Reds, willing to accept on the job training from a Belisle, Bailey, Encarncion, Coffey, and when can one expect the Reds to distance themselves from that which needs to be extracted from the mediocrity or below as routinely witnessed from an underachieving group such as Fogg, Patterson, Ross, Valentin, Bako, Freel, Hopper, and Majewski remodeling the memory of seven long years of their predecessors.

There are two very distinct sides to this team, both of which are a part that makes it presence known. Two that are in conflict with achieving the goals of a better team. The more weightier being that part which concludes with results that are stated within the win, loss column becoming a continuous history. One group of fans rightly believes that the scales need to be tipped in the favor of win, the other side rightly expresses a desire and belief that the scales are being tipped in the favor of win. How can we not agree with both and naturally we will be seen at various times voicing both sides at a time, one is the sour, one is the sweet and we believe that the sour will be dealt with, it is just that some of us believe that even though there are some things that the Reds cannot do anything about at this time, that the Reds need to be doing now, what they can do.

The Reds surely run both hot and cold in their present state as the quote below perceives within their fans who follow them in response to their journey on the playing field.


My problem with the current version of the reds isn't necessarily the losing rather it is the way they have gone about losing. Its that the Reds didn't take advantage of the situation they were put in. You can say "well over the course of 162 games you will have one or two that just get away from you" but the Reds forgot to show up just this past Sunday in Florida.

Everytime the Cards come into Cincy it seems as if they outplay them. They play more sound and better baseball than the reds. They seem to be doing everything right while the Reds are just going through the motions. The Reds and the Cards offenses were in the same boat last night. They both were facing a young pitcher with control issues. The Cards made an effort to work the count while the Reds went up there hacking. True it is only one game but it shows me a lack of being able to adapt. Boggs threw almost half his pitches for balls yet the Reds were only able to muster 4 H and 3BB. This wasn't like the game a few weeks ago where they hit everything hard right at people they didn't hit many balls hard.

I can live with errors and I can live with mistakes from the rookies. What irritates me to no end are the errors and defensive miscues that continue to happen with Edwin. The poor plate appearances that plague the vets. I can live with Jay Bruce swinging at first pitches because its part of his development. I also can live with Bruce swinging at those pitches because he has a purpose with that swing. What I hate are the swings that we too often see that are early in the count that the batter has no chance of hitting. I can't live with batters swinging away at the first pitch they see when the pitcher is having control problems. I can live with Homer having a bad outing but hate the defensive miscues that lead to those big innings. I can live with the losing and development of player but teach them to do it the right way. If you don't know what the right way is, watch the Cards they will show you.

IslandRed
06-11-2008, 02:31 PM
While we have some young talent at the ML level, we aren't very deep. With 13 pending FAs (I think that's right), there's going to be a lot of holes to fill this winter.

That's not really a concern to me. Of those 13 we had going into the season, it basically breaks down like this:

1) Guys who are already gone
2) Guys you'll probably be happy to see leave
3) Adam Dunn

Those spots still have to be filled, of course. Jocketty seemed to do well scrounging for complementary players in St. Louis and he'll have plenty of opportunity to do so here.

flyer85
06-11-2008, 02:33 PM
Those spots still have to be filled, of course. Jocketty seemed to do well scrounging for complementary players in St. Louis and he'll have plenty of opportunity to do so here.too bad he doesn't have the equivalent of Edmonds, Pujols and Rolen to fill in around. 4-5 years ago all three were at the top of their position both offensively and defensively.

Heath
06-11-2008, 03:21 PM
too bad he doesn't have the equivalent of Edmonds, Pujols and Rolen to fill in around. 4-5 years ago all three were at the top of their position both offensively and defensively.

So, would most of the National League.

RedsManRick
06-11-2008, 03:34 PM
This team was bad before Dusty and will be bad after he leaves.

There is no plan, and it starts at the top. The owner wants to "WIN NOW!!!!!!!!" and quits on any GM who doesn't bring him instant gratification. The GMs have not been all that good, but what can you do when you are a small market and your crazy owner is demanding that you win THIS YEAR? I guess you sign a "name" manager and then just randomly sign the best pitcher you can afford, then pray it somehow works out.

If you have a bad April, though, you will be fired, so instead of playing the great rookie who dominated AAA but had a rough spring, you sign a veteran CF because, again, you don't have time to let any young players develop.

Also, the public face of your team whines and complains about every young hitter that doesn't hit .500, so that makes it even harder to rebuild. Oh, he also hates your best offensive player for some reason, and the fans do to. So he will probably be gone after this year, as will your veteran star player. Sounds like a great time to rebuild! But, of course, you now have an old closer making $10+ million a year and an overpaid manager who prefers to manage veterans. Sounds awesome.

No plan in the owner's booth, the GM's office or in the manager's head ultimately leads to no plan at the plate.

I should have clarified. This is not a great team. This is not a team with the talent to win the division. But we have the talent to be above .500. I took the point of this thread not to be an examination of why we aren't on pace for 90 wins, but rather why we don't seem to be playing up to our potential. And I place blame for that on Dusty.

Baker has taken the talent he was given and failed to get the best out of them. He's made poor tactical decisions in game and has set up the lineup in a very inefficient manner. On balance, he's handled the pitching staff fairly well (though worse, lately, particularly with the starters). Meanwhile, he's deflected blame everywhere but on himself and failed to take account of what's actually causing us to lose games. His solutions are predicated on assumptions founded in his experience as a player rather than in the realities of run production and prevention.

He is miscast as a strategic and tactical decision maker and we're paying the price for it on the field.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 03:47 PM
I should have clarified. This is not a great team. This is not a team with the talent to win the division. But we have the talent to be above .500. I took the point of this thread not to be an examination of why we aren't on pace for 90 wins, but rather why we don't seem to be playing up to our potential. And I place blame for that on Dusty.

Baker has taken the talent he was given and failed to get the best out of them. He's made poor tactical decisions in game and has set up the lineup in a very inefficient manner. On balance, he's handled the pitching staff fairly well (though worse, lately, particularly with the starters). Meanwhile, he's deflected blame everywhere but on himself and failed to take account of what's actually causing us to lose games. His solutions are predicated on assumptions founded in his experience as a player rather than in the realities of run production and prevention.

He is miscast as a strategic and tactical decision maker and we're paying the price for it on the field.

Outstanding. Yes.

westofyou
06-11-2008, 03:53 PM
The Reds will never be good with Ray Knight as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Jack McKeon as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Bob Boone as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Dave Miley as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Jerry Narron as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Dusty Baker as the manager.

reds44
06-11-2008, 03:55 PM
Who are the 13 free agents? For some reason, outside of Dunn and Griffey I don't think any of them are any part of this teams future.

reds44
06-11-2008, 03:56 PM
That's not really a concern to me. Of those 13 we had going into the season, it basically breaks down like this:

1) Guys who are already gone
2) Guys you'll probably be happy to see leave
3) Adam Dunn

Those spots still have to be filled, of course. Jocketty seemed to do well scrounging for complementary players in St. Louis and he'll have plenty of opportunity to do so here.
Exactly what I am thinking as well. This team HAS a direction. It's getting young, and getting young in a hurry.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 03:56 PM
The Reds will never be good with Ray Knight as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Jack McKeon as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Bob Boone as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Dave Miley as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Jerry Narron as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Dusty Baker as the manager.


1/6 - 0.166666666667 percentage isnít good.
You were almost right, that Jack Mckeon got you.

bucksfan2
06-11-2008, 04:09 PM
I should have clarified. This is not a great team. This is not a team with the talent to win the division. But we have the talent to be above .500. I took the point of this thread not to be an examination of why we aren't on pace for 90 wins, but rather why we don't seem to be playing up to our potential. And I place blame for that on Dusty.

Baker has taken the talent he was given and failed to get the best out of them. He's made poor tactical decisions in game and has set up the lineup in a very inefficient manner. On balance, he's handled the pitching staff fairly well (though worse, lately, particularly with the starters). Meanwhile, he's deflected blame everywhere but on himself and failed to take account of what's actually causing us to lose games. His solutions are predicated on assumptions founded in his experience as a player rather than in the realities of run production and prevention.

He is miscast as a strategic and tactical decision maker and we're paying the price for it on the field.

Come on RMR. Look I understand you do not like Dusty as the Reds manager. I can see the reasons you don't, fair enough. Dusty pretty much disregards the sabermetric aspect of the game. Like it or not that is always the way he has been. He is the first manager since Davy Johnson who has had a track record of success.

The only problem that I have had with Dusty is his batting Patterson in the leadoff roll. Actually the problem I have with Dusty is that he forced Wayne to go out and get Patterson. Other than that Dusty has done nothing blatantly horriable as a manager. I don't mind so much his double switches because he is attempting to put his batting lineup in the best order to be successful. His handling of the rotation has been pretty good so far.

Dusty isn't the reason Jr wasn't hitting earlier in the year. Dusty isn't the reason Edwin can't hit or field so far this year. Dusty isn't the reason that Votto, Bruce, and Cueto are all rookies getting their first extended playing time in the bigs. Dusty isn't the reason Belisle, Fogg, and Coffey have pitched awful. And Dusty isn't the reason Harang gets little to no run support every time he takes the mound.

top6
06-11-2008, 06:22 PM
I want to be clear that I think Dusty is possibly the worst manager in baseball right now. And I thought the same thing when he managed the Cubs, and if you had asked me who the worst possible hire for the Reds would have been, I would have said Dusty Baker.

That said, he has cost them a few games at most. If he gets back to his old habits as far as pitch counts - and Cueto's have been going up - then and only then will he actually start affirmatively ruining the team in a significant way.

I think Dusty is a symptom of an organization with no direction and purpose - not a cause of this team's struggles.

top6
06-11-2008, 06:26 PM
Dusty pretty much disregards the sabermetric aspect of the game.
I don't think you need to be a sabermetric guy to criticize Dusty, unless you define sabermetrics as saying "it is possible to examine a player's past performance and to use that past performance to make some prediction about how he is likely to perform in the future." (Which very well may be how Dusty defines it.)

jojo
06-11-2008, 06:55 PM
I want to be clear that I think Dusty is possibly the worst manager in baseball right now.

Somewhere John McLaren is breathing a sigh of relief.... :cool:

Highlifeman21
06-11-2008, 06:58 PM
The Reds will never be good with Ray Knight as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Jack McKeon as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Bob Boone as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Dave Miley as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Jerry Narron as the manager.
The Reds will never be good with Dusty Baker as the manager.

The Reds were a good team with Davey Johnson as the manger.
The Reds were a good team with Jack McKeon as the manager.

I thought we'd be a good team with Dave Miley as the manager.

I agree with you about Boone, Narron and Baker, however.

westofyou
06-11-2008, 07:00 PM
I thought we'd be a good team with Dave Miley as the manager.

Good stuff

HokieRed
06-11-2008, 09:30 PM
What's wrong with a baseball team is usually very simple: the talent is not as good as other teams have. I do not consider this team any better than those of the last two years. Here are some statistics that tell you what's wrong: Jorge Cantu: .293/14/39/.873; Cody Ross 11/25/.816; Josh H. 17/70/.948; even Jose Guillen (who was the best player on the team the year he was traded) .275/11/49/.794. Consistently bad player decisions will produce a bad team. The decisions for which Krivsky has been lauded are starting to look pretty ordinary too: Phillips, Arroyo. Phillips is a slightly above average second baseman, not an All-star--still a nice pickup. Arroyo is a vastly overpaid guy who could not make the rotation on the good team he played for. We might have been equally well served by keeping Phil Dumatrait, not to mention Kyle Lohse. Burton was a good pickup, the book's still out on Bray and Maj, Volquez is great to have but K paid too much, IMHO. If you count in passing on Lincecum to take Drew Stubbs, the overall record is way in the loss column, as I see it. The encouraging signs I see, then, are that Castellini did what needed doing and some of the overrated talent in the organization is now exposing itself while we have a GM who has at least the experience--we'll see if he has the toughness--to say that success is still a lot farther out than we have been led to believe and will not be achieved without some major deals.

alloverjr
06-11-2008, 09:38 PM
Here are some statistics that tell you what's wrong: Jorge Cantu: .293/14/39/.873; Cody Ross 11/25/.816; Josh H. 17/70/.948; even Jose Guillen (who was the best player on the team the year he was traded) .275/11/49/.794.

Actually, those moves might fall into the "What's Right" category.

I might agree with you if you were leading into "...and they replaced them with...", but none of that quartet was going to make this team any better than they are right now and perhaps worse considering you acquired 2/5 of your rotaion by jettisoning 2 of them.

There's plenty wrong, you're just at the wrong tree.

RedsManRick
06-11-2008, 09:55 PM
I don't think the Reds would be a "good" team with a different manager. But I unequivocally think they'd be a "better" one.

Cyclone792
06-11-2008, 10:20 PM
The Reds have a mixture of three things going on that are attributing to the problems right now:

1) Young players making "growth-typical mistakes". Otherwise known as dumb errors, bonehead plays, and occasional poor plate appearances. These things happen with young players. You don't treat this problem with benching a young player or jerking him around. You treat it with patience, excellent coaching, and creating a positive atmosphere where the young player can work hard and overcome these mistakes. Placed in the proper environment, almost all young players overcome those mistakes. It just takes time.

2) Lousy players getting too much playing time and just being on the roster altogether. There are just plain bad players on this roster who are playing exactly as poor as one would expect, and these bad players just simply shouldn't be around.

3) Incompetence from the managerial position and at least one coaching position (pitching coach).

Number one is expected, and that problem will be solved so long as the Reds treat their young players properly with good coaching and creating a good environment for them. Number two needs to be fixed for this team to ever win, and number three could certainly use fixing as well, especially if one wants number one to be a world of success.

I actually thought about something while watching tonight's game that's so sad it's almost somewhat funny. Think back this time last year, and ask yourself who were the top Reds prospects. That list is simple: the Reds had what was known as the "Big Four" in Jay Bruce, Homer Bailey, Johnny Cueto, and Joey Votto. They were the future, and they were going to be the core that gets the Reds out of this mess.

Well, in the last week we've seen, in random order:

1) Joey Votto regularly ridiculed for defensive mistakes. Whether it's booting a ground ball, missing a scoop, or flipping a poor throw to the pitcher.

2) Homer Bailey still unable to have any type of command whatsoever. Now he's compounded that problem with a mysterious loss of velocity. The result has been routine shellings for a month now.

3) Johnny Cueto just went out there tonight and walked EIGHT St. Louis Cardinals. Then the Reds had him actively trying to work on his pitching mechanics in a big league game while he's trying to get big league hitters out. That's asking, as loudly as possible, for some type of injury with that decision. If you want Johnny Cueto to work on his mechanics, you do so in bullpen sessions under the strict pitch-by-pitch watch of a competent pitching coach with pitch-by-pitch coaching and instruction.

4) Jay Bruce, despite his fiery start in a Reds uniform, drops a routine fly ball in a blowout game and is booed by the home crowd merely two weeks into his big league career.

Meanwhile, the common Reds fan wants to trade Adam Dunn - the team's best position player for several years now - because they feel he'll make too much money, or they feel that he strikes out too much, or they feel that he is lazy. Sure, whatever.

And despite the absurd start by Edinson Volquez - a product of another team's organization, nonetheless - the common Reds fan still moans about the loss of Josh Hamilton.

Oh, don't forget about Edwin Encarnacion either. He needs to be traded because he hasn't lived up to whatever unrealistic hype was placed upon him.

All this and I haven't even touched what may be going on with Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo.

HokieRed
06-11-2008, 10:31 PM
Wanting to trade Adam Dunn is not just simply something the "common" Reds fan wants to do. On a team with as many problems as this one, it seems unwise to spend the kind of money it will require to keep Dunn on one player, particularly one playing a position whose offense should be relatively easy to approach (not replace, just approach.) I predict by 2010 we will see Yonder Alonso at first, Joey Votto in left, and Jay Bruce in right.

edabbs44
06-11-2008, 10:39 PM
4) Jay Bruce, despite his fiery start in a Reds uniform, drops a routine fly ball in a blowout game and is booed by the home crowd merely two weeks into his big league career.


I doubt the Reds fans were specifically booing Bruce. They were probably booing the entire product. Bruce just happened to be the one to botch a, in your words, "routine fly ball." Any major leaguer who drops one of those shouldn't complain about being booed, especially when the team is playing like they are.

Cyclone792
06-11-2008, 10:41 PM
Wanting to trade Adam Dunn is not just simply something the "common" Reds fan wants to do. On a team with as many problems as this one, it seems unwise to spend the kind of money it will require to keep Dunn on one player, particularly one playing a position whose offense should be relatively easy to approach (not replace, just approach.) I predict by 2010 we will see Yonder Alonso at first, Joey Votto in left, and Jay Bruce in right.

This team is already 150 runs behind where they need to be to win. But people want to subtract Dunn while still finding a window to compete in 2009-11.

Good luck with that.

edabbs44
06-11-2008, 10:43 PM
Wanting to trade Adam Dunn is not just simply something the "common" Reds fan wants to do. On a team with as many problems as this one, it seems unwise to spend the kind of money it will require to keep Dunn on one player, particularly one playing a position whose offense should be relatively easy to approach (not replace, just approach.) I predict by 2010 we will see Yonder Alonso at first, Joey Votto in left, and Jay Bruce in right.

If the team doesn't figure out what their goal is, Dunn could be signed to a monster extension and then he and Cordero can eat caviar and drink Cristal all they want while the team continues to blow.

If they are serious about improving the entire product in the near term, then sign Dunn and add a few other players to the mix. If they are more focused on 3-5 years from now, then there is zero point in re-signing him. Dump him and get some salary relief and young talent. If they don't give a damn about either scenario, then it doesn't really matter.

I said the same thing about Cordero and the same thing goes for Dunn.

edabbs44
06-11-2008, 10:45 PM
This team is already 150 runs behind where they need to be to win. But people want to subtract Dunn while still finding a window to compete in 2009-11.

Good luck with that.

Trade the player due to make a lot of money, add young, cheap talent and use the savings to continue to improve.

It can be done.

reds44
06-11-2008, 10:45 PM
What's wrong with a baseball team is usually very simple: the talent is not as good as other teams have. I do not consider this team any better than those of the last two years. Here are some statistics that tell you what's wrong: Jorge Cantu: .293/14/39/.873; Cody Ross 11/25/.816; Josh H. 17/70/.948; even Jose Guillen (who was the best player on the team the year he was traded) .275/11/49/.794. Consistently bad player decisions will produce a bad team. The decisions for which Krivsky has been lauded are starting to look pretty ordinary too: Phillips, Arroyo. Phillips is a slightly above average second baseman, not an All-star--still a nice pickup. Arroyo is a vastly overpaid guy who could not make the rotation on the good team he played for. We might have been equally well served by keeping Phil Dumatrait, not to mention Kyle Lohse. Burton was a good pickup, the book's still out on Bray and Maj, Volquez is great to have but K paid too much, IMHO. If you count in passing on Lincecum to take Drew Stubbs, the overall record is way in the loss column, as I see it. The encouraging signs I see, then, are that Castellini did what needed doing and some of the overrated talent in the organization is now exposing itself while we have a GM who has at least the experience--we'll see if he has the toughness--to say that success is still a lot farther out than we have been led to believe and will not be achieved without some major deals.
Trading Jose Guillen and Josh Hamilton netted the Reds Aaron Harang and Edinson Volquez. Despite Harang's 2-9 start, I am doing both of those trades 100 times out of 100.

MikeS21
06-11-2008, 11:04 PM
To me the problem boils down to one word: execution. The Reds just can't do it.

Other teams have managers who make dumb decisions and draw up silly batting orders. Other teams have quirky owners. Other teams appear to have no organizational "plans." Other teams have horrible players. Other teams have terrible pitchers. Other teams have young players who make rookie mistakes. Other teams go through "growing pains." Other teams have streaky players, injured players, and frustrating players.

The difference is that other teams seem to find a way to win in spite of all the adversities. The Reds just cannot seem to execute.

It has already been pointed out that the Cardinals have about as bad of a roster as can be. Yet they win. I honestly don't think Tommy LaRussa is that great of a tactical mind. The difference is that his players execute whatever he tells them to do.

I don't have too much problem with any of Duty's decisions. These are major league players who are paid to execute on the field. If they can't execute, then they really have no business in the major leagues. And right now, I'm having problems coming up with five players who actually are earning their paycheck.

I doubt there is a manager anywhere who could win with this team right now.

MWM
06-11-2008, 11:13 PM
add young, cheap talent

Just "add" it? It's that simple?

Cyclone792
06-11-2008, 11:22 PM
Just "add" it? It's that simple?

Yup, it must be. It's so simple that it's been the Reds' motto during the entire lost decade. And that motto has gotten us all the way to last place currently in 2008.

Let the winning commence!

KronoRed
06-11-2008, 11:24 PM
Just "add" it? It's that simple?

We just need to go shopping :thumbup:

Stormy
06-11-2008, 11:43 PM
What's wrong? Our Owner compelled our former General Manager to shelve the rebuilding process multiple times, in favor of completely futile and absurdly timed bids to immediately contend. Our owner hired a dreadfully miscast 'win now' name manager, and prematurely removed our GM a month into a new season, both by virtue of the assertion that he intends to win immediately.

How does he now go about spinning the concept of a returning to a rebuilding phase, given his obtuse bluster about winning now, without any regard for the facts on the ground? How do you go about enacting that rebuild with a Dusty Baker presiding, and a GM in Jocketty who is more accustomed to putting contenders over the top than in redesigning last place teams whose future core is mostly below 26 years of age? How do we know that the Owner can stay out of the way long enough for any renovations to take place, even if the aforementioned leadership can start moving the roster in the right direction?

This team is youthful, but there is plenty of talent present. They need some patience, proper utilization, proper development, and for the right acquisitions and subtractions to be made in building a more coherent roster between now and 2009. Do we have the right owner, GM, or coaching staff to provide any of those qualities?

The only one I have any faith in is Walt, but even he seems better suited for a different manner of General Management. Given the way this team is playing, he might need to start making some major moves sooner rather than later.

IslandRed
06-11-2008, 11:51 PM
This team is already 150 runs behind where they need to be to win. But people want to subtract Dunn while still finding a window to compete in 2009-11.

Good luck with that.

Playing devil's advocate for a second... paying Dunn more money next year for likely the same production doesn't advance the team forward an inch. That's just maintaining status quo at best.

There is a good chance the team could be worse, if that money (whatever the number is) is spent on less productive players.

But, if you have any faith in Jocketty as a GM, you have to at least allow the possibility that he can find a more productive (or, if you prefer Moneyball lingo, efficient) way to spend that dough, even if it's not contained in a single transaction. Maybe he will, maybe he won't, but I have a feeling he's going to try.

WVRedsFan
06-12-2008, 12:03 AM
Remember the 2005 Reds. You know, the bunch that scored 820 runs? What's the difference?

Well, the 2005 Reds scored a lot of runs, but the pitchers gave up a lot of runs. they averaged scoring over 5 runs a game, but gave up about 5.5 runs a game. They won 75 games.

As I mentioned in tonight's game thread, the Reds are on track to score 725 runs this year. The pitching's better by nearly a run a game, but the Reds are scoring less. The result is the same. They are on track to win 75 games.

Look at the two lineups showing hits, avg., and OBP. I multiplied the 2008 stats by 2.41 to show a full season:


2005 2008
1B - Casey - 165H .312 .371 1B - Votto - 137H 27 HR .275 .349
2B - Aurila - 120H .282 .338 2B - Phillips -166H 29HR .268 .315
3B - Randa- 96H .289 .356 3B - EdE - 130H 24HR .241 .327
SS - Lopez - 169H .291 .352 SS - Kepp - 119H 8HR .324 .373
LF - Dunn - 134H .247 .387 LF - Dunn - 110H 39HR .235 .405
CF - Junior - 148H .304 .369 CF - Bruce - 164H 21HR .387 .479
RF - Kearns- 93H .240 .333 RF - Junior - 140H 17HR .258 .363
C - LaRue - 93H .260 .355 C - Bako - 122H 17HR .238 .320

The difference can be seen at first base (though I think Votto will surpass Casey soon), LF (Dunn is just not having a very good year), SS (Lopez had a monster year, but Keppinger could too without the punch), and C (before the fall of Larue, he was a pretty good hitter).

For this team to finish above .500, Dunn, Griffey, Edwin, and the catching position must start hitting the ball. If we could combine 2005's hitting with 2008's pitching, well, then we'd have something.

Will M
06-12-2008, 12:05 AM
What's wrong? Our Owner compelled our former General Manager to shelve the rebuilding process multiple times, in favor of completely futile and absurdly timed bids to immediately contend. Our owner hired a dreadfully miscast 'win now' name manager, and prematurely removed our GM a month into a new season, both by virtue of the assertion that he intends to win immediately.

How does he now go about spinning the concept of a returning to a rebuilding phase, given his obtuse bluster about winning now, without any regard for the facts on the ground? How do you go about enacting that rebuild with a Dusty Baker presiding, and a GM in Jocketty who is more accustomed to putting contenders over the top than in redesigning last place teams whose future core is mostly below 26 years of age? How do we know that the Owner can stay out of the way long enough for any renovations to take place, even if the aforementioned leadership can start moving the roster in the right direction?

This team is youthful, but there is plenty of talent present. They need some patience, proper utilization, proper development, and for the right acquisitions and subtractions to be made in building a more coherent roster between now and 2009. Do we have the right owner, GM, or coaching staff to provide any of those qualities?

The only one I have any faith in is Walt, but even he seems better suited for a different manner of General Management. Given the way this team is playing, he might need to start making some major moves sooner rather than later.

well said.

in 2006 the reds were in the division race despite a .500 record. this fooled a lot of people into thinking we were contenders. the cards won the division that year with 83 wins. this was a fluke. for the reds to be real contenders they have to build a team that can wins 90+ games. we are far far from that.
plus the high minors are still fairly devoid of help except for a couple pitchers.
the big league team has a lot of holes. imo the reds would be served to really rebuild. keep the youth plus harang ( unless overwhelmed ) and trade off the other vets.

WVRedsFan
06-12-2008, 12:08 AM
The only one I have any faith in is Walt, but even he seems better suited for a different manner of General Management. Given the way this team is playing, he might need to start making some major moves sooner rather than later.

I'm with you on this. Moves must be made and soon. I'd acquire some real MLB players for the bench and then I'd try to find me a catcher--one that bats right-handed (no offense, but Ross is not and never has been the answer).

WVRedsFan
06-12-2008, 12:11 AM
n 2006 the reds were in the division race despite a .500 record. this fooled a lot of people into thinking we were contenders. the cards won the division that year with 83 wins. this was a fluke. for the reds to be real contenders they have to build a team that can wins 90+ games. we are far far from that.
plus the high minors are still fairly devoid of help except for a couple pitchers.
the big league team has a lot of holes. imo the reds would be served to really rebuild. keep the youth plus harang ( unless overwhelmed ) and trade off the other vets.

Good point. It never realy fooled me, but it sure did the GM and owner who extended the manager and lots of players while I gagged over the commode. It was (as Bobby Huggins says) "fool's gold" to think we were contenders. I love Adam Dunn and Junior and Edwin, but replacements are needed. And a catcher. Can I say that too often?

HokieRed
06-12-2008, 12:50 AM
Re my earlier posts regarding Guillen and Hamilton: the message seems to be that if you're the best player on the Reds what you can clearly expect is to be traded. Is that it? Does that sound like a formula for winning?

HokieRed
06-12-2008, 12:52 AM
Clearly the rotation needs at least one more pitcher: should we move Bruce?

cincrazy
06-12-2008, 12:54 AM
Re my earlier posts regarding Guillen and Hamilton: the message seems to be that if you're the best player on the Reds what you can clearly expect is to be traded. Is that it? Does that sound like a formula for winning?

Well if those trades result in Harang and Volquez, then yes, that does sound like a winning formula :thumbup:

fearofpopvol1
06-12-2008, 01:04 AM
The Reds are far too dependent on the home run ball. They have won a grand total (I believe--last I checked) of 2 games this season where they haven't had a home run. 2!!

SteelSD
06-12-2008, 01:05 AM
What's wrong? The pitching and the Manager. This hasn't somehow changed from the beginning of the season.

Gainesville Red
06-12-2008, 02:19 AM
What's wrong? The pitching and the Manager. This hasn't somehow changed from the beginning of the season.

I think it's been longer than that.

edabbs44
06-12-2008, 06:11 AM
Just "add" it? It's that simple?

By trading Dunn? I hope they can add young, cheap talent through trading him.

If they can't, then they are in bigger trouble than I thought.

bucksfan2
06-12-2008, 08:45 AM
Managers have come and gone yet the team has still played the same frustrating type of baseball. I wonder if the problem lies with the leadership of the club. I wonder if the problem lies with Dunn and Jr. I don't even mean to call them out but they are what they are. They are not fiery locker room leaders. They are two guys who look content just going out there and playing baseball day in day out whether they win or lose. There is nothing wrong with that, but when players look up to you as the leaders of the clubhouse there is where a problem can develop.

When you watch this version of the Reds you see a team that plays with no intensity. You see the same mistakes being made and of what you can see its like the team just recognizes the mistake and says "go get em next time tiger". I can't remember the last time you saw a mistake being made and it looked like the Reds gave a damn. Cueto had a rough outing out there last night but I give the kid credit. He didn't have his stuff and after the 1st inning he gutted out 4 more innings of one run ball. After the 5 run first did the offense go up to Cueto and say "don't worry about it we will get them back" nope the offense went out there and got 3 hits in 9 innings off a pitcher who averages <6 innings and gives up more than a hit an inning.

I am not advising someone taking a bat to a water cooler or going balistic on the field but it sure would be nice to see some emotion out there on the field. My fear is that when you see this lackluster game being played year after year after year your players begin to accept that as the norm. The worst thing that could happen to this club is for Bruce, Votto, Cueto, Bailey, etc. to accept and embrace that method of baseball. I really think this team needs to start anew. I think Jr, Dunn, and even EE need to be moved and to start over. I think its time to change the atmosphere and face of Reds baseball.

MWM
06-12-2008, 09:13 AM
bucksfan, you're complicating things. When a team has been as bad as the Reds for as many years as the Reds, it's not about "clubhouse leadership." It's about talent, plain and simple. No amount of fiery clubhouse guys is going to change the fact that the roster just isn't that good.

bucksfan2
06-12-2008, 09:45 AM
bucksfan, you're complicating things. When a team has been as bad as the Reds for as many years as the Reds, it's not about "clubhouse leadership." It's about talent, plain and simple. No amount of fiery clubhouse guys is going to change the fact that the roster just isn't that good.

I don't think I am complicating things. I don't think the talent is all that different from the Reds and Cards or the Reds and Marlins or the Reds and anyone with the exceptoin of maybe Philly and Chicago.

Here is what has happened in 3 of the past 4 games. They Reds have been shut down by a rookie pitcher called up from AA, a rookie pitcher with control problems, and Braden Looper a pitcher who gives up more hits than innings pitched. In each game it seemed like the entire team went up to the plate without an approach. The approach they had was see the ball hit the ball. Conversly look at what the Cards did to Bailey. They worked the count. They made him throw pitches, the Reds swung aimlessly at Boggs.

We have seen this same horriable baseball no for about 7 straight years. Seen players go out there looking like they didn't care and if they had a game plan they didn't execute. Yet when the red go into these swoons you don't hear a single player take accountability. You don't hear the leaders come out and say the way we are playing is unacceptable. You don't hear anything all you see is the same players taking the field every day and playing the same lackluster baseball.

REDREAD
06-12-2008, 10:28 AM
league team has a lot of holes. imo the reds would be served to really rebuild. keep the youth plus harang ( unless overwhelmed ) and trade off the other vets.

The problem is that there's not a whole lot of marketable vets to trade.

Dunn and Jr have no trade issues.

Arroyo could probably be traded (although he's probably back on the keeper list).

Who else? EdE perhaps (although he's young).

The team is so thin that they really don't have a surplus to trade, other than some pitching prospects in the minors.

My guess is that there's going to be some teeth gnashing when Walt decides to remold this team, because there's no excess Wily Mos to trade. Whoever Walt trades is going to cause another hole (other than pitching prospects, but folks will probably be up in arms about that too).

HokieRed
06-12-2008, 11:38 AM
If Valaika can hit and play 2b, I'd strongly consider trading Phillips. I'd also have no hesitation in trading Arroyo, EE, Keppinger, and, in the right deals, Harang, Votto, and Bailey. Only Volquez, Cueto, and Bruce would be on an untouchable list.

wheels
06-12-2008, 01:12 PM
This team is youthful, but there is plenty of talent present. They need some patience, proper utilization, proper development, and for the right acquisitions and subtractions to be made in building a more coherent roster between now and 2009. Do we have the right owner, GM, or coaching staff to provide any of those qualities?

The only one I have any faith in is Walt, but even he seems better suited for a different manner of General Management. Given the way this team is playing, he might need to start making some major moves sooner rather than later.


I dig what you're saying, but weren't those Oakland clubs of the 80's and 90's built under Alderson/Jocketty? Those A's teams were always pretty good at restocking the shelves even before Beane took over (he had to learn somewhere, right?), and it really didn't seem like it was done with just veteran accquisitions.

I also don't think the Cards were any great shakes in '96 (?) when Jocketty took over. Unless my memory fails me (and it DOES), that Cardinal franchise was kinda bad for a few years prior to Jocketty's arrival (once again, the nineties are kind of a lost decade for me in the memory department if you catch my drift).

Point is, I really think Jocketty IS the guy, and the notion that he's not adept at rebuilding, or bringing a young group along might be a product of a different situation with a different salary structure and parameters. Simply put, I think he can adapt to pretty much any situation, and he's got an owner that's comfortable with him. I think it's gonna work.

.....But that manager and that pitching coach are huge problem.

Chip R
06-12-2008, 01:51 PM
Re my earlier posts regarding Guillen and Hamilton: the message seems to be that if you're the best player on the Reds what you can clearly expect is to be traded. Is that it? Does that sound like a formula for winning?


Neither one were the best players on their teams at the time they were traded.

westofyou
06-12-2008, 01:55 PM
Neither one were the best players on their teams at the time they were traded.

Jose Guillen... we miss you and your .308 OB% (career .325)

MWM
06-12-2008, 03:01 PM
I don't think I am complicating things. I don't think the talent is all that different from the Reds and Cards or the Reds and Marlins or the Reds and anyone with the exceptoin of maybe Philly and Chicago.

Here is what has happened in 3 of the past 4 games. They Reds have been shut down by a rookie pitcher called up from AA, a rookie pitcher with control problems, and Braden Looper a pitcher who gives up more hits than innings pitched. In each game it seemed like the entire team went up to the plate without an approach. The approach they had was see the ball hit the ball. Conversly look at what the Cards did to Bailey. They worked the count. They made him throw pitches, the Reds swung aimlessly at Boggs.

We have seen this same horriable baseball no for about 7 straight years. Seen players go out there looking like they didn't care and if they had a game plan they didn't execute. Yet when the red go into these swoons you don't hear a single player take accountability. You don't hear the leaders come out and say the way we are playing is unacceptable. You don't hear anything all you see is the same players taking the field every day and playing the same lackluster baseball.

Nah, it's the talent. It's that simple.

wheels
06-12-2008, 03:23 PM
I don't think I am complicating things. I don't think the talent is all that different from the Reds and Cards or the Reds and Marlins or the Reds and anyone with the exceptoin of maybe Philly and Chicago.

Here is what has happened in 3 of the past 4 games. They Reds have been shut down by a rookie pitcher called up from AA, a rookie pitcher with control problems, and Braden Looper a pitcher who gives up more hits than innings pitched. In each game it seemed like the entire team went up to the plate without an approach. The approach they had was see the ball hit the ball. Conversly look at what the Cards did to Bailey. They worked the count. They made him throw pitches, the Reds swung aimlessly at Boggs.

We have seen this same horriable baseball no for about 7 straight years. Seen players go out there looking like they didn't care and if they had a game plan they didn't execute. Yet when the red go into these swoons you don't hear a single player take accountability. You don't hear the leaders come out and say the way we are playing is unacceptable. You don't hear anything all you see is the same players taking the field every day and playing the same lackluster baseball.


C'mon. What do you want guys to do when they make outs and give up runs?

Do you want Paul O'neill-esque temper tantrums every single time?

We are fans. We watch the game when it's convenient as an escape from our every day grind. These guys do this every single game while failing a lion's share of the time. How can you expect them to be so angry at something happens so often? Baseball is a game of failure, and dealing with that failure is part of being successful. I'd be more put off if they were a team of boorish hot heads like Rob Dibble.

westofyou
06-12-2008, 03:29 PM
Do you want Paul O'neill-esque temper tantrums every single time?

In Knothole there was a kid from Indian Hill that would pound the bat on his helmet (while it was on) after he struck out.

He never improved because of that act... and always looked foolish whilst doing it as well.

MWM
06-12-2008, 03:31 PM
In Knothole there was a kid from Indian Hill that would pound the bat on his helmet (while it was on) after he struck out.

He never improved because of that act... and always looked foolish whilst doing it as well.

But did he focus that anger towards winning? :evil:

M2
06-12-2008, 03:31 PM
All sorts of things are wrong with the Reds. For instance, the team is still way too thin on players who can hit and defend. The defense has improved, fairly significantly, since Jeff Keppinger got injured, but the offense could use his bat. Not hitting Adam Dunn and Joey Votto higher was, is and unfortunately will continue to be dumb management.

Some of what ails the Reds is the team is still discovering itself. This club has more talent than previous versions, but the gaps in that talent have caused acute pain and clearly the talent on hand hasn't found a way to combine for winning baseball.

Not getting more from Harang and Arroyo is really killing the team (obviously Arroyo is the greater pain point).

*BaseClogger*
06-12-2008, 03:38 PM
If Valaika can hit and play 2b, I'd strongly consider trading Phillips. I'd also have no hesitation in trading Arroyo, EE, Keppinger, and, in the right deals, Harang, Votto, and Bailey. Only Volquez, Cueto, and Bruce would be on an untouchable list.

Trading the overrated Phillips could open a spot for Keppinger as well if Valaika doesn't pan out. Now might be a great time to move him for pieces that could help fill the team's holes (CF, C, SS, arms)...

oregonred
06-12-2008, 03:43 PM
Not getting more from Harang and Arroyo is really killing the team (obviously Arroyo is the greater pain point).

Bingo. More Arroyo then Harang, although we seem to lose everytime Harang starts. If we were getting 2006-2007 numbers from our two veteran anchors, the team is almost certainly .500 or better. Add in KGJ's anemic power production and lack of range in RF and we find its the well paid veterans that are more inconsistent and underperforiming vs. the young kids.

RichRed
06-12-2008, 03:46 PM
What's wrong? The pitching and the Manager. This hasn't somehow changed from the beginning of the season.

I just caught a glimpse of tonight's lineup on Fay's blog. Let's just say it's Dustastic.

M2
06-12-2008, 03:50 PM
Trading the overrated Phillips could open a spot for Keppinger as well if Valaika doesn't pan out. Now might be a great time to move him for pieces that could help fill the team's holes (CF, C, SS, arms)...

Phillips is a top-10 bat at 2B (going by RARP), he might very well be the best defender in the game at 2B, he's great on the bases and he's got the sort of high motor this often listless squad needs more of.

Frankly, I don't think you could get back a better player for Brandon Phillips than Brandon Phillips. If you got equal value, then you're no better off and if you miss on that deal then you're digging this franchise into a deeper hole.

Plus, Phillips is pretty much the only reason I watch Reds games these days. Without him this would be a soul-crushingly boring team.

MWM
06-12-2008, 03:54 PM
Phillips is a top-10 bat at 2B (going by RARP), he might very well be the best defender in the game at 2B, he's great on the bases and he's got the sort of high motor this often listless squad needs more of.

Frankly, I don't think you could get back a better player for Brandon Phillips than Brandon Phillips. If you got equal value, then you're no better off and if you miss on that deal then you're digging this franchise into a deeper hole.

Plus, Phillips is pretty much the only reason I watch Reds games these days. Without him this would be a soul-crushingly boring team.

Agree on Phillips. At his price tag and with his defense, he'd be one of the only guys I'd pretty much not trade unless bowled over. But I would take him out of the 4th spot in the lineup.

BRM
06-12-2008, 03:55 PM
I just caught a glimpse of tonight's lineup on Fay's blog. Let's just say it's Dustastic.

It shouldn't surprise anyone, that's for sure.

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 03:56 PM
If Valaika can hit and play 2b, I'd strongly consider trading Phillips. I'd also have no hesitation in trading Arroyo, EE, Keppinger, and, in the right deals, Harang, Votto, and Bailey. Only Volquez, Cueto, and Bruce would be on an untouchable list.

Isn’t true that any member or members of a team can be traded if the GM were to get more in the return to solve his teams problems.

I wonder also because,
I don’t think that it is that easy to trade off good fielding second basemen, shortstops, centerfielders or catchers, that can also hit, and to be able to get equal or greater value in return at that position and to at the same time fill other positions from the residuals of those trades. How would you replace the bat and glove of Phillips, when the Reds are short at SS, CF, and C defensively, not to mention some other positions defensively already? Especially knowing that the defense has contributed to a part of the pitching problems?

As far as just trades, I don't care if Jocketty were to eventually move every player that the Reds have now, "If" he could get greater in return, to me and probably to Jocketty, they are all a resource pool to attempt to derive from a greater return to help his team.

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 04:05 PM
I just caught a glimpse of tonight's lineup on Fay's blog. Let's just say it's Dustastic.

If he hits Bingo with that lineup we are in trouble, we will never see the end of it.

Corey Patterson cf
Paul Janish ss

:angry:

reds44
06-12-2008, 04:07 PM
Corey has been swinging the bat better lately, dude.

RichRed
06-12-2008, 04:13 PM
I could almost be banned just for what I'm thinking about our illustrious manager right now.

Highlifeman21
06-12-2008, 04:13 PM
Corey has been swinging the bat better lately, dude.

He certainly couldn't have swung it any worse.

Highlifeman21
06-12-2008, 04:15 PM
Bingo. More Arroyo then Harang, although we seem to lose everytime Harang starts. If we were getting 2006-2007 numbers from our two veteran anchors, the team is almost certainly .500 or better. Add in KGJ's anemic power production and lack of range in RF and we find its the well paid veterans that are more inconsistent and underperforiming vs. the young kids.

Anyone wanna convince me that Harang and Arroyo aren't feeling the lingering abuse from Jerry Narron?

I know it's easy to just blame Narron, but there's plenty of factual support for that claim.

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 04:24 PM
I did not post this lineup moderators to discuss lineups, I posted it as an illustration to the question or topic of the thread, “What’s Wrong”

When the thread asks “what’s wrong”, the lineups that produce fewer hits, fewer at bats or PA for the teams better hitters, fewer men on base, and fewer runs, runs are a part of what is wrong, leaving men on base, lack of run support for the pitching, adding additional pressures to the Reds pitchers to be too perfect and even pressure on the defense, while making it easier for the oppositions pitchers and defense, I don’t see how it cannot combine to contribute to “what’s wrong”.

Corey Patterson cf .238 .361 .599

Paul Janish ss .304 .262 .566

Ken Griffey Jr. rf .363 .413 .777

Brandon Phillips 2b .291 .397 .688 against right handed pitchers.

Adam Dunn lf .403 .518 .921

Edwin Encarnacion 3b .325 .436 .761

Joey Votto 1b .348 .490 .838

David Ross c .352 .317 .669

Bronson Arroyo p .222 .125 .347

How many one or two runs games have the Reds lost because something like above, I don't know.

Baseball Musings Lineup Analysis
Based on work by Cyril Morong, Ken Arneson and Ryan Armbrust
Fill in nine players, OBA and Slugging Percentage

http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-bin/LineupAnalysis.py

Runs per game for above lineup: 3.930. X 162 = 636.66 Runs Scored Projection

The comparison belows is 4.244 runs per game 4.244 x 162 687.528 Run differentiation +51

Here I am not interested in the lineup that it created, but for illustration it shows a lineup can make a difference in RS runs scored.

Runs per Game 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
4.244 Ross Dunn Encarncion Griffey Votto Phillips Janish Patterson Arroyo
4.243 Ross Dunn Encarncion Griffey Votto Patterson Janish Phillips Arroyo
4.241 Ross Dunn Encarncion Votto Griffey Phillips Janish Patterson Arroyo
4.241 Ross Dunn Votto Griffey Encarncion Phillips Janish Patterson Arroyo
4.240 Ross Dunn Encarncion Votto Griffey Patterson Janish Phillips Arroyo

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 04:43 PM
RK TEAM RunsScored BA OBP SLG OPS
1 Chicago Cubs 369 .284 .362 .447 .809
2 Philadelphia 350 .261 .339 .451 .790
3 Florida 324 .259 .325 .459 .783
4 St. Louis 320 .274 .357 .419 .776
5 Pittsburgh 318 .259 .327 .405 .732
6 Arizona 318 .251 .330 .429 .759
7 Atlanta 305 .273 .350 .425 .774
8 Cincinnati 301 .251 .329 .410 .739
9 Houston 300 .265 .322 .421 .743
10 NY Mets 300 .253 .330 .390 .719
11 Milwaukee 289 .252 .323 .418 .741
12 LA Dodgers 281 .264 .332 .382 .714
13 Colorado 273 .256 .327 .394 .722
14 San Francisco267 .262 .325 .402 .727
15 San Diego 244 .243 .316 .370 .686
16 Washington 243 .234 .310 .356 .666

jojo
06-12-2008, 04:51 PM
Frankly, I don't think you could get back a better player for Brandon Phillips than Brandon Phillips. If you got equal value, then you're no better off and if you miss on that deal then you're digging this franchise into a deeper hole.

Ya, while he has flaws, the Reds probably don't want to trade Phillips.

IslandRed
06-12-2008, 04:52 PM
For instance, the team is still way too thin on players who can hit and defend.


Phillips is a top-10 bat at 2B (going by RARP), he might very well be the best defender in the game at 2B, he's great on the bases and he's got the sort of high motor this often listless squad needs more of.

Yep. The Reds have had a bunch of "or" players in recent years, but "and" players have been few and far between. Phillips is one. Now that Bruce is here, we have two. Not enough.

Actually, I'd settle for more players who, if not above-average in both respects, at least weren't a glaring minus in one or the other.

GAC
06-12-2008, 08:08 PM
I know it's easy to just blame Narron, but there's plenty of factual support for that claim.

I'm a very open-minded person. Please show that factual support other then subjectiveness based solely on pitch count. :p:

*BaseClogger*
06-12-2008, 08:37 PM
Phillips is a top-10 bat at 2B (going by RARP), he might very well be the best defender in the game at 2B, he's great on the bases and he's got the sort of high motor this often listless squad needs more of.

Frankly, I don't think you could get back a better player for Brandon Phillips than Brandon Phillips. If you got equal value, then you're no better off and if you miss on that deal then you're digging this franchise into a deeper hole.

Plus, Phillips is pretty much the only reason I watch Reds games these days. Without him this would be a soul-crushingly boring team.

I agree that Brandon Phillips is a very good 2B. However, I feel that some GM's might overrate his abilities, willing to give up more talent than he is worth in return. I also think that trading Phillips could potentially fill several holes at once while replacing Phillips with Kepp.

For example, would you prefer Lineup A or Lineup B for 2009?

A
C-??
1B-Votto
2B-Phillips
SS-Keppinger
3B-EE
LF-Dunn
CF-??
RF-Bruce

B
C-Filled w/Phillips trade
1B-Votto
2B-Keppinger
SS-AGon/Janish
3B-EE
LF-Dunn
CF-Filled w/Phillips trade
RF-Bruce

I strive for a winning team, not an exciting one...


I wonder also because,
I donít think that it is that easy to trade off good fielding second basemen, shortstops, centerfielders or catchers, that can also hit, and to be able to get equal or greater value in return at that position and to at the same time fill other positions from the residuals of those trades. How would you replace the bat and glove of Phillips, when the Reds are short at SS, CF, and C defensively, not to mention some other positions defensively already? Especially knowing that the defense has contributed to a part of the pitching problems?

That is why it depends greatly on the return for Phillips. I believe that other GM's would value him highly and that the Reds could get a hefty return for him, potentially filling multiple holes (CF, C, SS, arms) while replacing Phillips with Keppinger, who offers similar production...


Yep. The Reds have had a bunch of "or" players in recent years, but "and" players have been few and far between. Phillips is one. Now that Bruce is here, we have two. Not enough.

Actually, I'd settle for more players who, if not above-average in both respects, at least weren't a glaring minus in one or the other.

Like Jeff Keppinger? He is just as productive a hitter as Brandon Phillips, and would not be very far behind in overall production since he is a better defender at 2B than he is at SS...

GAC
06-12-2008, 08:48 PM
How about moving Phillips to SS, and then Keppinger to his more natural position of 2B? ;)

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 10:28 PM
How about moving Phillips to SS, and then Keppinger to his more natural position of 2B? ;)

Won't work, Phillips is a cleanup hitter, and SS have to bat second. ;) And second basemen bat cleanup, and Keppinger is the number two hitter on this team, if not seventh.

Stormy
06-12-2008, 11:32 PM
I dig what you're saying, but weren't those Oakland clubs of the 80's and 90's built under Alderson/Jocketty? Those A's teams were always pretty good at restocking the shelves even before Beane took over (he had to learn somewhere, right?), and it really didn't seem like it was done with just veteran accquisitions.

I also don't think the Cards were any great shakes in '96 (?) when Jocketty took over. Unless my memory fails me (and it DOES), that Cardinal franchise was kinda bad for a few years prior to Jocketty's arrival (once again, the nineties are kind of a lost decade for me in the memory department if you catch my drift).

Point is, I really think Jocketty IS the guy, and the notion that he's not adept at rebuilding, or bringing a young group along might be a product of a different situation with a different salary structure and parameters. Simply put, I think he can adapt to pretty much any situation, and he's got an owner that's comfortable with him. I think it's gonna work.

.....But that manager and that pitching coach are huge problem.

I hate to not respond with substantive data, but the '90s were a largely lost decade for me as well. ;)

Highlifeman21
06-13-2008, 07:40 AM
I'm a very open-minded person. Please show that factual support other then subjectiveness based solely on pitch count. :p:

PAP points and rankings, numerous pitch counts over 110, numerous consecutive pitch counts over 100...

I'll do some more in-depth research Sunday-ish. Got a lot goin' on between now and then.

edabbs44
06-13-2008, 07:52 AM
Anyone wanna convince me that Harang and Arroyo aren't feeling the lingering abuse from Jerry Narron?

I know it's easy to just blame Narron, but there's plenty of factual support for that claim.

I think it is a convenient excuse, but one that is hard to prove.

I would think that, if Harang's struggles are directly linked to Narron's usage of him, then we would have seen struggles a little bit earlier than the end of May 2008.

Also, Arroyo has thrown 7 games with 2 ERs or less allowed this season. Maybe he isn't hurt or worn out. Maybe he is just flat out inconsistent.

If they both suddenly collapsed or went down with injuries at the end of last year or right at the beginning of this year, then maybe I would be on board. But I remember when many people were calling out Dusty last year when Zambrano was struggling, predicting his inevitable date with Drs. Jobe or Andrews. I think they were wrong as well.

OnBaseMachine
06-14-2008, 06:26 PM
Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread, but one of the biggest problems with this team is the awful atbats some of these guys have. I have never seen a team have so many awful atbats night in and night out like this team does. Griffey just had one of the absolute worst atbats I have seen. The Reds were down a run and had runners on the corners for Griffey. The pitcher hadn't come close to throwing a strike the first three pitches, so what does Griffey do?!? He swings at a 3-0 pitch and jams himself into a double play, possibly costing the Reds the game. This offense is just so painful to watch.

Will M
06-16-2008, 12:23 PM
Team stats:

Pitching ERA 4.50 (13th)
Runs 314 (9th)
Errors 54 (15th or next to last)

the offensive stats are likely at little generous due to playing half our games at GABP. A back of the envelope estimate by knocking 5% off the total due to our park would place us 11th/16.

doing the reverse for pitching places us 11th/16. ( this MAY be an underestimate due to the poor defense. earned runs that shouldn't have been is a tough stat to monitor. )

So our offense and pitching are both below league average and our fielding is terrible. we can quibble about the individual players but imo the biggest problem we have is so many players on the roster who have no business in a major league uniform. we have serious talent deficit.