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AmarilloRed
06-11-2008, 02:48 PM
Baker turns to Bruce to fill leadoff role
Cincinnati (31-35) vs. St. Louis (39-27), Wednesday, 7:10 p.m. ET
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com


CINCINNATI -- Reds manager Dusty Baker freely admitted that rookie Jay Bruce wasn't his first choice to serve as his leadoff hitter on Tuesday vs. the Cardinals.

Then again, there were no other options.

"By the process of elimination," Baker said.

The Reds' previous leadoff hitter, Jerry Hairston, will be out at least two weeks with a fractured left thumb. Another leadoff guy, Ryan Freel, suffered a partial tear of his right hamstring last week. And Corey Patterson has struggled from the leadoff spot all season, and there's no room for him in the outfield with Bruce, Adam Dunn and Ken Griffey Jr.

"Leadoff men are the hardest guys to find in sports -- baseball at least," Baker said. "Jerry was doing a hell of a job."

Bruce went 1-for-4 with a single in the No. 1 spot during the Reds' 7-2 loss vs. the Cardinals on Tuesday. He's a good bet to be there again on Wednesday.

"It's day-by-day until I get guys back," Baker said. "I talked to him about my experience with batting leadoff. Just hit the same. I know he's not your prototypical leadoff hitter, but neither is Hanley Ramirez, Bobby Bonds, Alfonso Soriano and the young man in Arizona, Chris Young."

Since he joined the Reds on May 27, Bruce is batting .390 with three home runs and 11 RBIs in 15 games

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080611&content_id=2889484&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

RedsManRick
06-11-2008, 02:59 PM
Barry Bonds lead off the first two years of his career as well. The trick now is getting Dusty to realize that Paul Janish is not his #2 guy.

Blitz Dorsey
06-11-2008, 03:02 PM
Janish batting second is the worst of many decisions Dusty has made with his lineup. OK, other than Corey Patterson batting leadoff.

"Hey, let's make the worst hitter on our roster the No. 2 hitter! My toofpick told me it was the right move."

gonelong
06-11-2008, 03:04 PM
"Leadoff men are the hardest guys to find in sports -- baseball at least," Baker said.

There easy to find if you are a Reds fan. <insert Baker leadoff hitter either in CF or SS here cliche here> :D

GL

nate
06-11-2008, 03:05 PM
Janish batting second is the worst of many decisions Dusty has made with his lineup. OK, other than Corey Patterson batting leadoff.

"Hey, let's make the worst hitter on our roster the No. 2 hitter! My toofpick told me it was the right move."

Corey Patterson batting leadoff sends greetings.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 03:10 PM
The Enquirer had a slightly different version.


LEADING OFF: With Hairston on the DL, Baker went with Jay Bruce in the leadoff position "through process of elimination."

"I just talked to him about my experience with batting leadoff, and just hit the same," Baker said. "I know he's not your prototypical leadoff hitter, but neither is Hanley Ramirez, Bobby Bonds, Alfonso Soriano ... Chris Young."

The Reds were 10-6 with Hairston batting leadoff.

"Boy, Jerry was doing a hell of a job," Baker said. "I'm going to have to get Corey (Patterson) in there sometime because he's starting to swing the bat good again. Made some adjustments. We'll see."

Bruce went 1-for-4.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20080611/SPT04/806110327/

flyer85
06-11-2008, 03:13 PM
The one thing that Dusty should do, especially against RHPs is put Bruce and Dunn together. Having them 1 and 5 gives a pitcher plenty of time to pitch to some low risk hitters and get out of an inning.

dougdirt
06-11-2008, 03:19 PM
Guy slugging over .600? Bat him leadoff, that will get the best use out of him.

Matt700wlw
06-11-2008, 03:20 PM
"I'm going to have to get Corey (Patterson) in there sometime because he's starting to swing the bat good again. Made some adjustments. We'll see."


No. He's not. Really.

flyer85
06-11-2008, 03:22 PM
Guy slugging over .600? Bat him leadoff, that will get the best use out of him.best hitter gets the most ABs, hard to argue against it. I remember a BP article awhile back about lineups and Bonds and the Giants runs scored were maximized when Bonds hit leadoff(athough it may have been because of the OBP).

I would not mind Bruce hitting leadoff and Dunn 2nd.

Batting Bruce 1st and Janish 2nd is just stupid.

BTW, Dusty can't help himself with Corey, too bad Walt just doesn't remove the temptation.

flyer85
06-11-2008, 03:28 PM
The problem that the Reds just can't get away from is that none of their RHBs are very good against RHPs

Phillips OPS of 680
EE OPS of 775
Kepp OPS of 665

RedsManRick
06-11-2008, 03:30 PM
Guy slugging over .600? Bat him leadoff, that will get the best use out of him.

Certainly better than burying him in the 6th or 7th hole like he's done to Votto.

dougdirt
06-11-2008, 03:32 PM
Certainly better than burying him in the 6th or 7th hole like he's done to Votto.

Which makes no sense still. Between Votto and Bruce, Votto makes a better option to leadoff than Bruce does. Dusty Baker is an idiot. Lets get Patterson back in the lineup. Lets bat one of our best power hitters leadoff. Lets bat one of our best hitters, if not the best hitter on the team currently 7th. I wish the stupidity would stop in this organization.

redsrule2500
06-11-2008, 03:32 PM
Dusty makes no sense. It's beyond confusing how he can create these ridiculous lineups and nobody close to him or the team says anything. what the crap.

flyer85
06-11-2008, 03:35 PM
Dusty makes no sense. It's beyond confusing how he can create these ridiculous lineups and nobody close to him or the team says anything. what the crap.it's the traditional lineup ... fastest runner hits leadoff and a empty BA slap hitter in the #2 hole. Dusty is completely comfortable.

dougdirt
06-11-2008, 03:36 PM
it's the traditional lineup ... fastest runner hits leadoff and a empty BA slap hitter in the #2 hole. Dusty is completely confused.

Fixed that for you.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 03:37 PM
Barry Bonds lead off the first two years of his career as well. The trick now is getting Dusty to realize that Paul Janish is not his #2 guy.

I question whether Bruce leading off with a Janish batting behind is in the best interest of Bruce and the team.

Jay Bruce if I remember correctly was reported as having volunteered in spring training to leadoff, which did not work out so very well for Bruce, granted it was somewhat early in spring training. Most of the excellent performance that we have witnessed early from Bruce has been with Ken Griffey Jr. batting behind him. I feel that it would have served Bruce and the team if that would have continued and that Phillips would have been the option left to leadoff after the injuries came into play in the Reds situation with Jay Bruce continuing to hit in the second slot behind Phillips followed by Adam Dunn until one of the fore mentioned injured players either Hairston or Keppinger can return.

I would like to see Baker convey a message of confidence in Bruce, Griffey, Dunn and Votto by not leading with his frequently voiced concerns over the left handed bat situation, and having them bat followed by each other as in Phillips, Bruce, Dunn, Griffey, Votto and so forth.

Either Baker has confidence and belief in these players and their abilities according to the backs of their baseball cards and demonstrates it, or he continues weakening the offense in fear of a what if that might not matter later in the game. It doesn’t seem reasonable to dismiss the facts that some of these left handed bats perform reasonably well against left handed pitching and that most of them have a good OBP against them.

I don't know of any substance that supports the automatic batting of CF and SS in an order regardless of their abilities or skills, which fly's in the face of concerns over batting lefy/righty etc. Somewhat of a contradiction in my eyes at this time.

Janish up in the order while taking away an AB or PA from a Dunn, Votto, or even a Griffey is questionable, and should not have even been available for discussion, Janish should bat where his experience and stats indicate that he has earned the right to bat, seventh or eight in the order.

Baker has had sufficient negative results and a proper sample to make the determination that Phillips who is having a problem with right handed pitching and hitting into the highest percentage of double plays on the team while swinging at some bad pitches is really not his best at the cleanup spot, and that perhaps that Phillips would be reined in a bit and use his abilities with the bat and speed in the leadoff spot as the lesser of two evils during a time that the Reds have players outstanding due to them being on the DL list.

Further I don’t think that having Dunn and Votto bat down in the lineup over the reduced experience of a Janish or an aging Griffey is productive either, as another choice might be of Phillips, Bruce, Dunn, Griffey, and Votto in succession. Baker himself has said that in the end a player will bat or do just about what he has always done on the year according to the back of his baseball card, being true then he should respect that result and place them in an order that makes it more difficult for the opposing team, increasing the percentage probability of the Reds getting more runners on base with which to score.

Go with your best, show and convey that they are your best by the manner in which you present them in that lineup.

flyer85
06-11-2008, 03:40 PM
the interesting thing about stacking the LHBs is that Dusty has not even tried it to see if it might work. It almost seems like he is afraid of the answer at this point.

One thing that is obvious is that the lineups Dusty has tried to this have NOT worked at all.

One thing I do know is that tonight Looper would not like to see the first 4 hitters being Bruce, Dunn, Jr and Votto.

BTW, Larussa had Ludwick(a power bat) in the #2 hole night. I doubt Dusty learned anything.

RedsManRick
06-11-2008, 03:43 PM
Which makes no sense still. Between Votto and Bruce, Votto makes a better option to leadoff than Bruce does. Dusty Baker is an idiot. Lets get Patterson back in the lineup. Lets bat one of our best power hitters leadoff. Lets bat one of our best hitters, if not the best hitter on the team currently 7th. I wish the stupidity would stop in this organization.

You won't get disagreement from me. The idea that Patterson not only "needs" to get back in the lineup but that he should be back in the leadoff only reinforces the notion that Dusty is clinically insane.

RedsManRick
06-11-2008, 03:45 PM
the interesting thing about stacking the LHBs is that Dusty has not even tried it to see if it might work. It almost seems like he is afraid of the answer at this point.

One thing that is obvious is that the lineups Dusty has tried to this have NOT worked at all.

One thing I do know is that tonight Looper would not like to see the first 4 hitters being Bruce, Dunn, Jr and Votto.

BTW, Larussa had Ludwick(a power bat) in the #2 hole night. I doubt Dusty learned anything.

Four lefties in a row? But what if he brings in Ron Villone? What THEN Flyer!?

flyer85
06-11-2008, 03:46 PM
reinforces the notion that Dusty is clinically insane.just goes to show you that someone can play the game and yet not really understand how it works.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 03:46 PM
The one thing that Dusty should do, especially against RHPs is put Bruce and Dunn together. Having them 1 and 5 gives a pitcher plenty of time to pitch to some low risk hitters and get out of an inning.

That is speaking to something that Baker can do, something that is within his power to do now and that does not take time for Jocketty to affect via trade or in the time that it takes for a young pitcher to find his niche.

flyer85
06-11-2008, 03:48 PM
Four lefties in a row? But what if he brings in Ron Villone? What THEN Flyer!?The funny part is that those four lefties might actually cause the Reds to be ahead by the 6th or 7th inning making Villone/Flores a moot point.

Dusty does not seem to plan for things that are going to happen yet does plan for things that may not happen. Oy vey.

REDREAD
06-11-2008, 03:49 PM
Guy slugging over .600? Bat him leadoff, that will get the best use out of him.

Well, at least it's better than batting Bruce #5 or #6...

I agree that Patterson #1 and Janish #2 is bad.

Problem is that this team now really doesn't have anyone suited for the top of the lineup.

Dunn could be a #2 hitter, but it's reasonable to use him at #3 or #4..

But beyond Dunn (who is also a high sluggling guy), there's really no one suitable for the top of the lineup. I actually think Bruce is the best choice, although Janish should bat #8 or #7.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 03:51 PM
The problem that the Reds just can't get away from is that none of their RHBs are very good against RHPs

Phillips OPS of 680
EE OPS of 775
Kepp OPS of 665

Baker then should face reality about the resources available to him at this time and make due with the best that he has according to the back of the baseball cards, implying the statistical history of his current players, he will have to scrap the past and play into the future and current.

flyer85
06-11-2008, 03:59 PM
Baker then should face reality about the resources available to him at this time and make due with the best that he has according to the back of the baseball cards, implying the statistical history of his current players, he will have to scrap the past and play into the future and current.
in splitting the LHBs against RHP all Dusty does is give pitchers an easy way to get out of innings.

There is a reason that the 2-4 hitters provided the scoring for the Cards last night, they happen to be their best three hitters placed consecutively, Dusty spaces his throughout the lineup.

RedsManRick
06-11-2008, 04:01 PM
Baker then should face reality about the resources available to him at this time and make due with the best that he has according to the back of the baseball cards, implying the statistical history of his current players, he will have to scrap the past and play into the future and current.

Dusty has never paid any attention to the back of the baseball except when it becomes necessary to defend a pre-conceived notions. And when he looks at that card, he looks at batting average, SB, and RBI. That, in short, is his problem. It isn't (just) in the application of information. He doesn't look at Patterson's sub .300 OBP and think that it's a good fit in the leadoff spot. He doesn't look at it at all.

RichRed
06-11-2008, 04:02 PM
You won't get disagreement from me. The idea that Patterson not only "needs" to get back in the lineup but that he should be back in the leadoff only reinforces the notion that Dusty is clinically insane.

Patterson did hit that homer on Sunday. Bat him cleanup, I say.

Good grief, Dusty, stop it already.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 04:03 PM
You won't get disagreement from me. The idea that Patterson not only "needs" to get back in the lineup but that he should be back in the leadoff only reinforces the notion that Dusty is clinically insane.

:D

And here you were busting my chops back in May for me wanting to make Juan Castro for Pedro in his prime trades unrealistically and called for me to write a ten page dissertation on why and how that was to be accomplished realistically.

:evil:

:lol:

Nex time be happy with my reality or you can have Dusty's reality all to yourself.

:lol:

Now I will take door number two, Valentin for Kemp, and Belisle straight up for Hammels.

:feedback:

flyer85
06-11-2008, 04:05 PM
He doesn't look at Patterson's sub .300 OBP and think that it's a good fit in the leadoff spot. He doesn't look at it at all.Dusty is just going with traditional wisdom.

Fast guy must bat leadoff, it never gets any farther than that. If Dusty was his manager Wade Boggs would have never batted first.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 04:14 PM
in splitting the LHBs against RHP all Dusty does is give pitchers an easy way to get out of innings.

There is a reason that the 2-4 hitters provided the scoring for the Cards last night, they happen to be their best three hitters placed consecutively, Dusty spaces his throughout the lineup.

Yes, St. Louis and even Sparky even though different era's.

I strongly agree with you, "in splitting the LHBs against RHP all Dusty does is give pitchers an easy way to get out of innings." He helps create the truth or illusion of inconsistency with his approach I think, and that he discounts or weakens what Votto or Dunn can bring to the table and now he has Bruce leading off and Janish batting behind him, going against what has worked in Bruce batting second and Griffey behind him.

Then Baker turns around and whines that a Harang cannot get run support even though Baker himself is contributing to creating that scenario.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 04:21 PM
Dusty has never paid any attention to the back of the baseball except when it becomes necessary to defend a pre-conceived notions. And when he looks at that card, he looks at batting average, SB, and RBI. That, in short, is his problem. It isn't (just) in the application of information. He doesn't look at Patterson's sub .300 OBP and think that it's a good fit in the leadoff spot. He doesn't look at it at all.

Sure, you're right.

Baker uses his own buzz word style to avoid hard cold facts that he doesn't want to own or explain. Baker can generalize and rationalize all he wants, but that does not make his choices productive, as we have witnessed in Patterson, who by the way, and we each know, might have been more productive batting down in the order, over leadoff, Baker never gave Patterson a chance down in the 6-7-8 spots. :dunno:

RedsManRick
06-11-2008, 04:23 PM
Dusty is just going with traditional wisdom.

Fast guy must bat leadoff, it never gets any farther than that. If Dusty was his manager Wade Boggs would have never batted first.

Traditional wisdom is a funny thing. Quite often, upon inspection, it turns out to be neither traditional, nor wise.

If Dusty were a little league coach, I guarantee you his son would pitch, play SS, and bat 3rd, all the while claiming that his inherent abilities justify the decision -- regardless of the outcome on the field.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 04:30 PM
Dusty is just going with traditional wisdom.

Fast guy must bat leadoff, it never gets any farther than that. If Dusty was his manager Wade Boggs would have never batted first.

Yes, but he is inconsistent. Phillips is the last fast man left to leadoff, in the Dusty world of thinking, but Baker denies Dusty on his speed theory over riding that with his Phillips is a cleanup batter against righties. :confused:
So that he can allegedly split up the left handed bats that actually hit right handed pitching better than a Phillips in the cleanup spot. :confused:

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 04:34 PM
If Dusty were a little league coach, I guarantee you his son would pitch, play SS, and bat 3rd, all the while claiming that his inherent abilities justify the decision -- regardless of the outcome on the field.

Then he is in denial and delusional .

Denial - refusal to acknowledge existence of something: a refusal to believe in something or admit that something exists

Delusional - a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence, mistaken notion: a false or mistaken belief or idea about something

Far East
06-11-2008, 05:08 PM
The problem that the Reds just can't get away from is that none of their RHBs are very good against RHPs

Phillips OPS of 680
EE OPS of 775
Kepp OPS of 665

Here are Reds' LHH sluggers vs LHP:

Bruce .853
Dunn .815
Votto .931
Griffey .670

Except for Griffey, no need to split them up.

Blitz Dorsey
06-11-2008, 05:14 PM
Corey Patterson batting leadoff sends greetings.

You were so close!

KronoRed
06-11-2008, 06:29 PM
I'd like to see EE bat leadoff.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 07:40 PM
I'd like to see EE bat leadoff.

That sounds interesting too.

Hows come teams when they are having tough seasons don't do some trial and error stuff like that just to see what shakes out? Sort of like a major extended spring training to ready for next year.
Ticket sales I guess.

dougdirt
06-11-2008, 07:42 PM
That sounds interesting too.

Hows come teams when they are having tough seasons don't do some trial and error stuff like that just to see what shakes out? Sort of like a major extended spring training to ready for next year.
Ticket sales I guess.

You hit the nail on the head. That would mean they are acknowledging, publicly, that they are throwing in the towel.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 11:28 PM
IP H R ER BB K HR Season ERA
B. Looper (W, 8-5) 9.0 3 0 0 0 4 0 4.34

Was this a career night for the pitcher along with the Reds only getting three hits?