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View Full Version : Time to blow it up? what is the 'blow it up' scenario?



Will M
06-12-2008, 05:08 PM
From what I have read Dunn and the Reds have had no talks regarding a LTC.
I suspect he will hit the market and get more than the Reds want to pay.
Carlos Lee got 6/$100M two years ago and is a big stick DH in left field like Dunn. With no Dunn the Reds have holes in LF, CF/RF & catcher.
We also have below average defense at SS with Kep, an enigma at 3B in EE, holes in the pitching staff and other issues. I have been thinking how Jocketty would go about 'blowing it up' if he chose to:

1. Dunn is shopped for a return better than the draft picks we will get. If the offers are poor we offer him a reasonable contract in the offseason and take the picks if he walks.

2. Junior. Most realize he is a goner after 2008. If he wants to play for a ring find a match in the AL where he can DH and get whatever we can for him.
He really needs to be a DH.

3. Weathers won't be back. if we can get anything for him do it.

4. Arroyo. should go in the rebuilding plan but not for a 'fire sale' return. A rotation of Harang plus the kids could use another innings eating veteran so Arroyo's 200+ IP has value. That being said if he pitches well he could have real value at the deadline and we could try to sign a cheap vet this offseason.

5. Affeldt. he is 29 yrs old and has piched decently. i would try to work out a reasonable extention if he continues to do well this year

6. Cordero has a no trade clause for 2008/2009 so he isn't going anywhere unless he wants to. a closer is a luxury for a rebuilding team but losing too much becomes a habit so it is nice to win the games where you are leading late. he stays for now unless he wants to go

7. Certain guys won't be back and have no trade value - Javy, Patterson, Merker, etc

8. Gonzales could go but needs to prove he is healthy first

9. Freel goes if healthy and anyone wants him.

10. Hairston could be reupped if he continues his 2008 play. again do it reasonably not 'krivsky style'


Keepers:
Bruce
EE - Kep/Janish - Phillips - Votto
Harang & the young starters.
Cordero - Burton -Bray - maybe Affeldt.
Bench guys like - maybe Hairston, likely Freel, Gonzo if we can't deal him, some backup catcher.


Needs:
1. young catcher
2. one young outfielder who plays CF or RF ( preferrably a CF )
3. another outfielder ( LF ) or a 1B with Votto moving to LF. this could be a fill in vet for a year or so
4. talent :)

Looking at what we have to trade it isn't much.
What Walt could get for Dunn or Arroyo at the deadline is crucial to the 'blow it up' plan. Most of the Reds non pitching prospects are in A/A+ which means they are a 2-3 years away. If Dunn goes for draft picks then those picks are also years away. it would be nice to see walt be able to trade for a catcher and centerfielder who are in AA/AAA. that would speed up the rebuiling process.


Thoughts?

RedsManRick
06-12-2008, 05:28 PM
Two quick, related points:

1.) The Oakland scenario. They "blew it up" this year, trading their best pitcher and best position player for prospects. They are 5 games above .500 and have a better pythagorean record than the division leading Angels.

2.) The housing crisis / credit crunch: Both of these related economic issues are predicated on the same sort of cycles we see in baseball. Good fundamentals can lead to speculation, which leads to unrealistic expectations, which leads to inappropriate risks, which leads to an eventual bursting bubble, which leads to a recession as the fundamentals take time to solidify again.

These are quite related. Done well, the rebuilding cycle can be extremely quick. Cut off your push the moment you realize it is in vein and start rebuilding. The earlier you do it, the more value you get in return, the stronger your actual base still is, and the shorter the recovery period. Done excellently, there is no such thing as a cycle -- you are always rebuilding, and always winning.

The Reds are past the point when they should have rebuilt. Actually an argument can be made that they have never realized that the 2000 push was a failure and have been in perpetual need of a rebuild since. Instead, they've tried to walk a tightrope unsuccessfully. Luckily, the fundamentals are fairly solid right now. While we don't have a ton of assets to move, a few shrewd moves and another year of maturation from our youth could put us in a fairly strong position for 2009.

REDREAD
06-12-2008, 05:28 PM
I think it would be almost impossible just to get anyone to take Freel or AGon off our hands. They are both hurt. Freel had a little spurt of playing well, but it's going to be hard to convince anyone that he's an everyday player. The price for bench players has fallen to earth last winter. Both are going to be grossly overpaid next season.

If we don't resign Dunn, I think we need to trade for a big bat, even if that means giving up prospects. Ideally, Walt pulls another Edmunds type deal :)

If Dunn is removed from this lineup next year and not replaced with a comparable bat(s), this team is truly going to be awful next year.

Will M
06-12-2008, 06:01 PM
I think it would be almost impossible just to get anyone to take Freel or AGon off our hands. They are both hurt.


agree


If we don't resign Dunn, I think we need to trade for a big bat, even if that means giving up prospects. Ideally, Walt pulls another Edmunds type deal :)

If Dunn is removed from this lineup next year and not replaced with a comparable bat(s), this team is truly going to be awful next year.

that isn't the 'blow it up plan' , that is the 'we can contend with some moves' plan.

i would prefer the blow it up plan because i feel that we are too far away from being a real contender. a team that can win 85+ games yearly and make the playoffs a lot. think of the 1987-1995 team or the 1995-2006 Cards. we can trade some prospects for need when we are closer to being a team that can win more than we lose each year

Joseph
06-12-2008, 06:15 PM
I hear often enough that veteran managers like Freels hustle and spunk. You won't get major value, but I think someone would give you something just for his 'intensity'.

Dunn reportedly told the Reds he'd be open to LTC in Spring Training and they didn't broach the topic. Its not clear if he wanted it done in ST and won't discuss it now, but that sounded like what was being said when you listened between the lines.

This team doesn't need 'blown up'.

This team needs to put its best players out there and maybe make one real trade, one big trade. That may even mean Dunn, but its not necessary.

Scrap Irony
06-12-2008, 06:33 PM
How to Blow it Up, C. 2008:

1. Trade Aaron Harang, David Weathers, SS Jeff Keppinger, 3B Edwin Encarnacion, and Adam Dunn to the Los Angeles Dodgers for 3B Adam LaRoche, OF Matt Kemp, P Clayton Kershaw, RP Jonathan Broxton, P Jon Meloan, and High A C Carlos Santana.
Reds get rid of roughly $25 million salary and get back a high-octane bullpen (in Meloan and Broxton), two sluggers ready right now for the bigs (CF Kemp and 3B LaRoche), and a stud catching prospect (Santana) and pitching prospect (Kershaw). Dodgers grab a starting 3B, SS, LF, and an ace to go along with a veteran reliever for now.

Will M
06-12-2008, 06:36 PM
How to Blow it Up, C. 2008:

1. Trade Aaron Harang, David Weathers, SS Jeff Keppinger, 3B Edwin Encarnacion, and Adam Dunn to the Los Angeles Dodgers for 3B Adam LaRoche, OF Matt Kemp, P Clayton Kershaw, RP Jonathan Broxton, P Jon Meloan, and High A C Carlos Santana.
Reds get rid of roughly $25 million salary and get back a high-octane bullpen (in Meloan and Broxton), two sluggers ready right now for the bigs (CF Kemp and 3B LaRoche), and a stud catching prospect (Santana) and pitching prospect (Kershaw). Dodgers grab a starting 3B, SS, LF, and an ace to go along with a veteran reliever for now.

this kind of trade would be a great one for the Reds. it is the kind of overwhelming offer we would need to trade Harang.

red-in-la
06-12-2008, 11:35 PM
"He blowed up, he blowed up real good"

The idea of building a winning team means that at some point you have some good players and some bad ones on your way to replacing the bad ones with more good ones. I am not sure I would call blowing it up.

Bailey should be working on his pitching in AAA (he may make that possible soon). The Reds need another #1 starter and have to figure out how to get one. They need a LF and a CF and maybe a catcher. Two more BP arms, one to replace Weathers and another to help Burton and Bray get to Cordero.

They need a bench.

GAC
06-12-2008, 11:36 PM
that isn't the 'blow it up plan', that is the 'we can contend with some moves' plan.

And that is what Walt needs to do. And the direction he will take IMHO. To blow something up means to obliterate everything, and there are some very sound pieces on this team IMHO.

The bad pieces are dragging down the good pieces. And those bad pieces, for the most part, will be gone due to contracts/obligations ending at this season's conclusion. Guys like Jr, Weathers, Fogg, Mercker, Patterson, Belisle, Valentin, as well as some others, will be gone. You also complete your obligations to guys like Hatteberg, Stanton, and Castro.

Clear out the dead wood, free up the money needed to go into that market, and identify/address those glaring needs. But there is no need to blow it up.

But it has to be done (addressed) in an incremental sense IMO. Some very positive steps forward can be made going into the '09 season.

The main thing for Walt..... minimize the bad moves. ;)

Some ideas I've pondered on?

Move Phillips to SS in the off-season. Or if they are going to write the 08 season off, then do it when Kepp comes back and move him to his natural position of 2B.

You can then make a decision on Gonzo. If you can trade him, then trade him. If not, he'll be on the last year of his contract next season. Use him off the bench while dangling him out there.

3B? EE has shown improved defense. His bat is very erratic/streaky. I don't see where this as pressing a need as other areas right now.

Continue to show patience throughout this season with kids like Cueto and Bailey. Let them pitch. Not only to gain the invaluable experience; but in Bailey's case to see what you have. It's time for him to step up and show us he has what it takes (or not). Demoting him isn't going to help anything IMO. If he ain't got it, or isn't the answer, then lets find out.

How about trying to acquire Bedard, who I hear Seattle is going to try and deal by the deadline?

I don't have any idea what direction this FO is taking with Adam Dunn. But if they are thinking of letting him walk and simply getting the draft picks, or entertaining trading him for the right deal, then why not dangle him before Seattle for Bedard? I know they are fed up with Sexson.

I would then listen to offers for Arroyo. People are always looking for pitching.

Make a decision on where Bruce is going to play. If it's RF, then you have to go into the market and get that CFer. And if you're letting Dunn walk, as well as Jr, then you should have the money to do so.

And if you move Votto to LF, then you have to find a 1bman. This Alonso kid hasn't proven anything yet at the ML level, and is 2 years away if anything. So he's not even part of the equation right now. But how about moving EE to 1B with Gonzo at 3rd? Or maybe even Gonzo at 1B till we find other options or Alonso shows us something? You want a sound glove/defense at 1B.

The catching position. It seems to have become a lean position, for the most part, throughout MLB where teams are platooning. We don't need three catchers on this team, and I don't know what there is in the market. If anything. No, I'm not happy with Ross, Valentin, and Bako. Valentin should be gone at season's end. But I'd exercise the team option on Ross for '09 (3.5 mil), and if not Bako, then look to find that viable replacement somewhere. Again - I just don't see many immediate catching solutions popping up in the market.

There are some sound pieces shaping up in this rotation and bullpen. Guys like Weathers, Mercker, and Lincoln will be gone. I'd retain guys like Burton, Affeldt, Bray, and even Majewski. But I'd still be out there looking for even more serviceable parts in the market in this area.

REDREAD
06-12-2008, 11:44 PM
that isn't the 'blow it up plan' , that is the 'we can contend with some moves' plan.

I see.. so you're thinking of basically trading everyone but Volquez, Bruce, and Ceuto..

That could work.. but the risk is always that you get less in return and you have to wait 2-5 years for it to arrive..

Scrap Irony
06-12-2008, 11:48 PM
All Star Level Talent:
Jay Bruce
Edinson Volquez
Johnny Cueto
Adam Dunn
Brandon Phillips
Aaron Harang
Coco Codero

Above Replacement Level Talent
Jeff Keppinger
Jared Burton
Joey Votto
Affeldt
Bill Bray

Questionable Talent Level
Edwin Encarnacion
Ken Griffey, Jr. (at this point)
Alex Gonzalez
Gary Majewski
David Ross
Homer Bailey

Possible Help
Darryl Thompson RHSP
Matt Maloney LHSP
Shaun Cumberland CF/OF
Chris Valaika SS
Adam Rosales IF

WVRedsFan
06-13-2008, 12:23 AM
Keepers:
Bruce
EE - Kep/Janish - Phillips - Votto
Harang & the young starters.
Cordero - Burton -Bray - maybe Affeldt.
Bench guys like - maybe Hairston, likely Freel, Gonzo if we can't deal him, some backup catcher.


Needs:
1. young catcher
2. one young outfielder who plays CF or RF ( preferrably a CF )
3. another outfielder ( LF ) or a 1B with Votto moving to LF. this could be a fill in vet for a year or so
4. talent

Like others have said, that's not blowing it up. Keppinger, Bruce, Phillips, Votto, I agree with. I also keep Harang, Volquez and Cueto. As far as pitchers go, I keep Cordero because no one will take that contract, but only Burton stays. Bench players? There is no purpose in keeping Freel and Hairston. One has to go. Ross, Valentin, Dunn (like EE, I've soured on him lately), Griffey (unless you can sign him for a bargain), EdE, Gonzo--all should go. I'd add Freel to the list. He gets hurt every year and then fades from sight. Bray still hasn't proven a lot to me (wild and can't pitch on consecutive days) and Affeldt is showing why he can only pitch to a couple of batters. Plus, he's going to demand big money next year and he just isn't worth it.

I'd look for suitors for Homer and give away Belisle, Fogg (who won't be back anyway), Patterson, and Hopper.

That said, none of this will happen, because like GAC said, there will be some moves, but nothing as drastic as this.

As far as needs go, I agree on Nos. 1 and 2, but we desparately need another first baseman (right handed please) and a right-handed power bat.

Caveat Emperor
06-13-2008, 12:54 AM
This team doesn't need to be blown up, for once.

When you blow a team up, you look to create a young core. The young core is there: Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Volquez, Phillips, Burton, Bray, and Janish. Throw in your steady vets Harang (who will bounce back, I have no doubt) and Cordero, re-sign Dunn and suddenly you're really in business.

The team should be looking to add complementary talent (talent being they key word) by signing contributing (not necessarily superstar) free agents, looking for undervalued players (ala Jim Edmonds years ago) to acquire for prospects or players not figuring into longterm plans (guys like Drew Subbs and Eddie Encarnacion), and aggressively promoting real talent in the system.

Blow it up is a bad idea, IMO. The trick is to shed dead weight, identify and sort prospects (trade the bad, keep the good), and improve the talent level on the team.

IslandRed
06-13-2008, 03:01 AM
This team doesn't need to be blown up, for once.

I agree. A full-scale blow-up is for aging teams whose window of contention has closed. This club already looks like one that's gone through a blow-up and is on the way back up.

The Reds have some areas that can use retooling, though. I thought Jocketty was pretty good in St. Louis at scrounging complementary talent and there's plenty of room for improvement here.

jojo
06-13-2008, 07:59 AM
He's just an observation from last night's game.........

Freeze the game after Votto's spot in the line up (he batted 7th).

Here's what the next five guys looked like (OPS):
.669
.347
.599
.566
.776 (it's below league average for a RFer but it looks HOF in the context of the Reds line up).

Seriously, is that a "what the F?" moment or what???????

SMcGavin
06-13-2008, 12:55 PM
He's just an observation from last night's game.........

Freeze the game after Votto's spot in the line up (he batted 7th).

Here's what the next five guys looked like (OPS):
.669
.347
.599
.566
.776 (it's below league average for a RFer but it looks HOF in the context of the Reds line up).

Seriously, is that a "what the F?" moment or what???????

Last night made me realize how sad it is to be a sports fan sometimes. We spend hours upon hours on Redszone debating about what moves the Reds need to make, and then you turn on the game and Patterson and Janish are batting one-two. I am generally an optimist when it comes to the Reds, but how much clearer can your organization say "we have no idea what we are doing" than by hitting your worst two hitters first?

Will M
06-13-2008, 01:14 PM
keeping Bruce, EE, Kep, Janish, Phillips, Votto, Harang, the young starters, Cordero, Burton, Bray & maybe Affeldt is basically keeping the youth plus Cordero ( no trade clause ) plus Harang ( need to be overwhelmed with an offer ).

most of us would like Dunn back simply because we need his offense. however the 'tea leaves' suggest he will go elsewhere.

the remaining refuse we have won't give us much in return ( except for possibly Arroyo ).

i just wonder where walt is going to get enough talent to make us winners in the near term. lets say we try to tweek by keeping the above players, Dunn goes for draft picks & Arroyo stays unless we can get one A or two B prospects for him. a lot of money comes off the books but i don't see a lot out there this offseason to spend it on. maybe Bob C and Walt blow our minds by moving Dunn for a young catcher or CF & then spending $$$ to get Texiera ( with Votto going to LF ). i doubt this as Boras clients go for the highest bidder. so imo the tweek is going to leave us short of talent again in the near term. right now if Dunn goes for draft picks we are short a CF, catcher and 1B/LF. maybe the answer is the marketing of Harang ( blasphemy i know ) and moving Cordero to a contender. this would be a full scale blow up but might get us the talent we need to fill a 25 man roster with real major league talent

Kc61
06-13-2008, 01:21 PM
This team doesn't need to be blown up, for once.

When you blow a team up, you look to create a young core. The young core is there: Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Volquez, Phillips, Burton, Bray, and Janish. Throw in your steady vets Harang (who will bounce back, I have no doubt) and Cordero, re-sign Dunn and suddenly you're really in business.

The team should be looking to add complementary talent (talent being they key word) by signing contributing (not necessarily superstar) free agents, looking for undervalued players (ala Jim Edmonds years ago) to acquire for prospects or players not figuring into longterm plans (guys like Drew Subbs and Eddie Encarnacion), and aggressively promoting real talent in the system.

Blow it up is a bad idea, IMO. The trick is to shed dead weight, identify and sort prospects (trade the bad, keep the good), and improve the talent level on the team.


Post indicates, I think, that Reds core is good and it should focus on complimentary players.

Except they are in last place.

There still need to be major changes and there will be. A blow up usually means dumping long-standing highly paid vets. The Reds don't have many, and some will soon be free agents, so that termmay not apply here. But substantial changes will happen.

Griffey will either be gone after this year or will be re-signed for a far more limited role. Probably gone.

Whether the Reds will decide to pay Dunn $75 million for five years is very much an open question.

Walt and co. may have different views as to the prospects for some of the younger players. Don't think he's necessarily wedded to EE, Phillips, Cueto, Votto, Bailey. He may or may not be, but he's undoubtedly re-evaluating. (Pretty sure he'll keep Bruce and Volquez.)

Walt may feel that Reds are better off cashing in Arroyo and/or Harang.

Gonzo, Keppinger, Hairston, and Janish can all play shortstop, but I'm not sure Walt would be satisfied with any of them. Just don't know.

Other than Bruce and Volquez, I don't think fans can assume that anyone is a lock to stay with this team. Again, it has some good talent but is in last place.

HokieRed
06-13-2008, 01:32 PM
I'm close to KC on this, though I'd add Cueto to the untouchable list. Cueto, Bruce, Volquez. Everybody else is on the block for the right price. Price would be substantial for Harang, Phillips or Votto, but that's how you build a better team. Junior will be gone and I believe Dunn will be too, as it's just too much money to spend on solving one problem and I think there's a way in which the team must get beyond the Griffey-Dunn era. I think we'll see a significantly different team next year with EE gone and somebody different installed at either third or SS, Kepp playing the other one. Valaika may be the 2nd baseman with Phillips having gone to address one of the bigger needs: CF, C, infield left side, LF after Dunn's exit. I think Votto will still be here in LF or at 1b. There's a good chance Arroyo and/or Bailey will be gone. If I had to guess, I'd say next year's centerfielder, left fielder, third baseman, and catcher are not in the organization as of now.

RedsManRick
06-13-2008, 01:40 PM
Post indicates, I think, that Reds core is good and it should focus on complimentary players.

Except they are in last place.

There still need to be major changes and there will be. A blow up usually means dumping long-standing highly paid vets. The Reds don't have many, and some will soon be free agents, so that term may not apply here. But substantial changes will happen.

Cyclone touched on this in another thread, but it's appropriate here as well. Quite often, what separates the great teams from the poor ones isn't how many great players they have, but rather how few poor ones.

As he pointed out, if you took our below average players and replaced them with average players, leaving everybody else alone, the W/L record of this team is reversed.

That's not to say that the core couldn't be improved -- it always can. But when you consider our available resources, the youth and cost effectiveness of that core, and the substantial gains to be had simply by upgrading our big weak spots, I think it's a pretty tough argument to suggest that a "blow it up" strategy is the right one to take right now.

There are few teams in baseball as well positioned to succeed in the 2009-2011 window than are the Reds. The trick is taking advantage of it by eliminating all the negatives that currently offset the positive contributions. Fortunately, we have a GM who's particular strength is leveraging good opportunities. Let's hope that remains the case.

Spring~Fields
06-13-2008, 03:43 PM
Post indicates, I think, that Reds core is good and it should focus on complimentary players.

Except they are in last place.

There still need to be major changes and there will be. A blow up usually means dumping long-standing highly paid vets. The Reds don't have many, and some will soon be free agents, so that termmay not apply here. But substantial changes will happen.

Griffey will either be gone after this year or will be re-signed for a far more limited role. Probably gone.

Whether the Reds will decide to pay Dunn $75 million for five years is very much an open question.

Walt and co. may have different views as to the prospects for some of the younger players. Don't think he's necessarily wedded to EE, Phillips, Cueto, Votto, Bailey. He may or may not be, but he's undoubtedly re-evaluating. (Pretty sure he'll keep Bruce and Volquez.)

Walt may feel that Reds are better off cashing in Arroyo and/or Harang.

Gonzo, Keppinger, Hairston, and Janish can all play shortstop, but I'm not sure Walt would be satisfied with any of them. Just don't know.

Other than Bruce and Volquez, I don't think fans can assume that anyone is a lock to stay with this team. Again, it has some good talent but is in last place.

I think that I have to agree with you because of resource value that will be dictated by other clubs on the market for a trade to improve their present and future. We naturally are safe to assume that other teams won't be trolling for the Reds castoffs, i.e. players that the Reds and fans don't want back.

I think that if I tried to be sober minded while staying with a conservatism type of thinking that I would have to believe that the parts that are young, good, less expensive coupled with solid growth potential, players that we would like to see the Reds keep, are probably the parts that other teams would want in a given trade.

Players such as Bruce, Votto, Cueto, Volquez, Thompson, Phillips and Keppinger may be the primary targets along with the veteran pitching of Harang, Arroyo and Cordero for other teams, then to secondary targets for teams looking to trade, Maloney, Jukich, Valaika, Roenicke.

A consistency factor coupled with cost vs benefit might preclude the other players within the Reds organization from being in demand or causing teams to lack any genuine interest and to shy away from. The fact that a Griffey or a Dunn being with the Reds for a considerable time now may be a strong indicator in a lack of interest or demand from other teams leaving the Reds unable to move them then and now.

I somehow think and I don’t know why, but I think that Jocketty and Baker will want a more proven, veteran presence to be the core of the Cincinnati Reds. Maybe it was from the past watching a St. Louis, San Francisco or a Chicago, I am not certain, but those teams seemed to have more veteran and not a lot of youth manning their key positions on the field and in the pitching department. So I speculate that, that may be the way that Jocketty and Baker builds.

SMcGavin
06-13-2008, 04:34 PM
There are few teams in baseball as well positioned to succeed in the 2009-2011 window than are the Reds. The trick is taking advantage of it by eliminating all the negatives that currently offset the positive contributions. Fortunately, we have a GM who's particular strength is leveraging good opportunities. Let's hope that remains the case.

Good stuff here. And as someone who thought Krivsky got a raw deal, I'll admit that he showed his strength to be building a core. He was completely unproven at assembling the complementary parts that a winning team needs, and we will never know whether he could have done it or not. Jocketty has proven in the past he can assemble a winner. Not trying to start up the "should WK have been fired" debate again, just pointing out that building a core and assembling the complementary pieces around it are two distinctly different tasks. IMO the Reds have succeeded in doing the first, whether or not they can do the second will determine if this is a playoff team going forward.

Spring~Fields
06-13-2008, 04:41 PM
The bad pieces are dragging down the good pieces.

Clear out the dead wood, free up the money needed to go into that market, and identify/address those glaring needs.

But it has to be done (addressed) in an incremental sense IMO. Some very positive steps forward can be made going into the '09 season.

The main thing for Walt..... minimize the bad moves. ;)

Some ideas I've pondered on?

Move Phillips to SS in the off-season. Or if they are going to write the 08 season off, then do it when Kepp comes back and move him to his natural position of 2B.

You can then make a decision on Gonzo. If you can trade him, then trade him. If not, he'll be on the last year of his contract next season. Use him off the bench while dangling him out there.

3B? EE has shown improved defense. His bat is very erratic/streaky. I don't see where this as pressing a need as other areas right now.


Make a decision on where Bruce is going to play. If it's RF, then you have to go into the market and get that CFer. And if you're letting Dunn walk, as well as Jr, then you should have the money to do so.

And if you move Votto to LF, then you have to find a 1bman. This Alonso kid hasn't proven anything yet at the ML level, and is 2 years away if anything. So he's not even part of the equation right now. But how about moving EE to 1B with Gonzo at 3rd? Or maybe even Gonzo at 1B till we find other options or Alonso shows us something? You want a sound glove/defense at 1B.



Errors - Votto 8 Encarncion 9 Dunn 4 Griffey 4 Bako 3 Ross 2 Keppinger 1 Phillips 1

If the players that have made the most errors are any indication of the weakest defensive positions on the Reds team then I think that your suggestions of moving the infield around might be of some significant benefit to the Reds and their infield defense while giving needed support to the Reds pitching and reducing runs allowed.

Such as, moving Phillips to short, Gonzalez to third, Keppinger to second and Encarncion to first, would probably eliminate many if not most of the current Reds infield errors, improving the defense, reducing runs allowed to other teams. While at the same time if a Jocketty wanted to back up the wagon and regain some payroll flexibility keeping in mind that Cincinnati is not St. Louis in Jocketty’s case or San Francisco and Chicago in Bakers case with much greater revenues to fabricate an end product with.

Jocketty may find it comfortable to unload present/future cost related to a Dunn or Griffey so that he can bring the liquidity made available to the market, to shop for players more fitting his plan. During such a time Jocketty may feel that moving a Votto to left and a Bruce to right while holding on to a Patterson for a fourth out fielder and picking up a centerfielder to complete his immediate task and plan workable.

Though I think that Jocketty with his first moves to move individual minor league talent up, and to play his youthful players also at the big league level is not only to show him, or to see what he has, but to also showcase them for future trades. Most veteran position players that the Reds have will not make an impact on another team, so those teams will be wanting the young, productive and cheap in position players, and the sound and stable in the pitching departments.

Though it would work from a strictly defensive position, I think that the multiple infield moves will be to exotic for the traditionally challenged baseball minds of Jocketty and Baker, and that they would readily dismiss the ideas. I believe that they will want to go outside to find the fits and or keep each where they already are.