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WVRed
06-13-2008, 08:50 AM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=7


• Whither Junior: Now that that pesky 600-Homer Watch is out of the way, the Reds can listen to offers on Junior Griffey. But unless he relaxes and starts swinging the bat dramatically better, scouts we've surveyed say they wouldn't recommend him as a thumper worth trading for.

"You're talking about a guy who can't catch up to a good fastball anymore," said one scout, "unless it's guess-guess, cheat-cheat. I hate to say it, but it was no accident that 600th homer came on a breaking ball."

Meanwhile, a friend of Griffey's says to forget, once and for all, the idea of Junior returning to that mess in Seattle -- because "what's the draw? Playing for a mediocre club a half-continent away from home? I don't think so."


• Whither Junior, 2009 edition: But if you're looking for a destination Griffey could land in next year, once there are no worries about surrendering prospects or picking up a $16-million contract, here's a club we've started to hear some guesswork about: Tampa Bay.

The Trop is an easy commute from Griffey's home in Orlando. It's a fun team on the rise, with a chance to win. And it's an AL team that could mix in some DH-ing opportunities. So why not?

"If I were them, I think it would be a great move," said one veteran baseball man. "You run him out there with his big smile and his sweet swing, and it's a drawing card. And even if he's slipped, you're putting another left-handed bat in the middle of that lineup. Could be scary."

I hadn't thought about Tampa, but that does make a lot of sense.

redsmetz
06-13-2008, 09:59 AM
[QUOTE=WVRed;1665009I hadn't thought about Tampa, but that does make a lot of sense.[/QUOTE]

Tampa Bay has crossed my mind alot, particularly with the cylinders are starting to click. Heavens, he could be home every night! And they've got some decent players available, from what I hear from you all.

RedlegJake
06-13-2008, 10:13 AM
Junior might well end up in Tampa but it likely would be after the Reds decline his option. There is just no reason why the Rays would part with any of their talent to get him there - they can have have him for the negotiation of a FA contract after the season's over. My bet is Junior is here for the rest of the year.

Degenerate39
06-13-2008, 10:48 AM
I would like to see Griff go to Tampa Bay and provide the veteran leadership. He would be at home and be on a contender.

Heath
06-13-2008, 12:34 PM
Junior might well end up in Tampa but it likely would be after the Reds decline his option. There is just no reason why the Rays would part with any of their talent to get him there - they can have have him for the negotiation of a FA contract after the season's over. My bet is Junior is here for the rest of the year.

Could a bat like Junior's carry them in September, when the inevitable injury occurs to Cliff Floyd?

That's the $64,000 question.

Roy Tucker
06-13-2008, 12:56 PM
From SI... Didn't think about he might have wanted to hit #600 in FLorida close to home.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/06/13/heyman.griffeyrays/index.html



Would Griffey consider being dealt to surprising Rays?


Those who know Ken Griffey Jr. know that nothing is more important than family to the newest member of baseball's 600-home run club. Now Griffey, a longtime resident of the Orlando, Fla. area, is telling friends he's monitoring the surprising Tampa Bay Rays as a possible destination for him, should the Reds decide to deal him.

Griffey, 39, has a no-trade clause but has told intimates that if the Rays stay in the race, he'd consider waiving his veto power to go home. Or close to home, anyway. Tampa is much nearer his Orlando area residence than any other big-league city. Griffey's tony Isleworth community is about an hour from St. Petersburg, where the Rays play.

Griffey's love for his family was on display once again in recent days when he had his wife and kids join him for home run No. 600, hit four hours to the south of Orlando in Miami. Griffey plainly wanted to make history in the state he resides. He didn't start the previous series at Philadelphia due to what was termed "general soreness'' that curiously wasn't such an impediment once the Reds got to Florida.

After breaking the record, Griffey (.256 7 HRs, 30 RBI) pointed out he did take four swings as a pinch hitter in Philly but sounded thrilled that he didn't happen to hit one out there since his family wasn't there. He's such a natural and still so good you almost wonder if he can homer on call.

His trade to the Reds nine years ago was originally seen as a homecoming for Griffey, who grew up in Cincinnati. However, back then his first choice was actually Atlanta, which was the big-league city closest to Orlando at the time.

Baseball insiders expect the rookie-heavy Reds, who appear at least a year away from contention, to explore trading the future Hall of Famer. But there's no evidence there are yet serious trade talks involving Griffey, and one intimate said, in fact, that "nothing's imminent.'

Griffey is believed likely to prefer waiting to be traded until after the All-Star Game, anyway; he's running third in balloting for NL outfielders. He's thought by friends to be interested in playing the final All-Star Game at Yankee Stadium, where he has often told of how once felt slighted by Billy Martin as a kid running around the clubhouse when his father, Ken Sr, played in the Bronx.

As fortune has it, the improving Rays, who at 38-28 are currently leading the wild-card race by three games, may have a spot for Griffey, provided they don't have to surrender one of their very top prospects or pay exorbitantly. Griffey makes $12 million this year but remains productive and imposing enough to justify that salary, especially on a pro-rated basis over a half year. The bigger question for any acquiring team would be the $16.5-million option for 2009 that Griffey might request be exercised in the event he's traded. That's quite a bit high for an aging player on the precipice of DH duties.

Rays general manager Andrew Friedman said, "We have a lot of confidence in the 25 guys we have. That said, if we have the opportunity to upgrade our roster and it is something that makes sense in terms of the acquisition cost, we'd be aggressive to make a move. But short of that, we have confidence in the guys we have here.''

The Rays don't have a set starting right fielder, but the lefthanded-hitting Eric Hinske (11 home runs, 31 RBI) has done a nice job as part of a rotation, and a righthanded hitter might actually be a better fit. Veteran Cliff Floyd (.250, 5 HRs) has been solid serving as the lefthanded DH for the Rays but is injury prone and has been held out of the lineup in recent days. Floyd said earlier this year he's pretty sure this will be his last season.

Reportedly, the Rays briefly considered Barry Bonds this spring before deciding he wouldn't be the right person to add to their young clubhouse. Those concerns wouldn't affect a run at Griffey, whose clubhouse reputation is solid.

Meantime, Griffey, whose so-so start has been attributed to anxiety over his chase for No. 600, will be keeping an eye on the Rays. If they remain in the race, they are believed to be his first option. There was speculation a few weeks ago that the Mariners might be interested in Griffey. But it would be hard to imagine him waiving his no-trade clause to leave a decent young team like the Reds to go to Seattle, where the team is brutal and insiders say that clubhouse atmosphere is stale.

gonelong
06-13-2008, 01:05 PM
Griffey to the Rays is one of the few situations I'd feel good about as a Reds fan and as a fan of KGJ.

GL

MartyFan
06-13-2008, 01:07 PM
I think the Rays would be a great fit for Junior...so, he would move from my favorite team to my second favorite team...I'm ok with that.

RedsManRick
06-13-2008, 01:08 PM
A nice pre-ASB hot streak could be the best thing for both the Reds and Junior. I would only hope that he doesn't demand his extension be picked up, as that would likely nix any potential deal.

redsfan4445
06-13-2008, 01:09 PM
per mlb traderumours;and SI

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/06/13/heyman.griffeyrays/index.html

"Ken Griffey Jr. is reportedly telling friends that the Rays are his preference if he is to be traded. He'd be close to his Orlando home, always a major consideration for him. Heyman says Junior would prefer to be dealt after the All-Star game. It's not known whether the Rays have interest in Griffey, though.":

Blitz Dorsey
06-13-2008, 01:15 PM
I love how the story quotes a scout saying "Junior can't catch up with a fastball anymore unless he guesses" ... and then the same story quotes another guy saying "It could be scary if you put Junior's bat in the middle of Tampa Bay's lineup."

That is just too good. Very high on the unintentional comedy scale.

(For the record, I agree with the first statement a lot more than the second. The scout is exactly right that Griffey can't catch up with a fastball anymore.)

Chip R
06-13-2008, 01:52 PM
per mlb traderumours;and SI

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/06/13/heyman.griffeyrays/index.html

"Ken Griffey Jr. is reportedly telling friends that the Rays are his preference if he is to be traded...":


That's something you don't hear every day.

OnBaseMachine
06-13-2008, 01:59 PM
The Rays would be a great fit for Griffey and a great trading partner for the Reds. The Rays would never give up one of their stud pitching prospects like Wade Davis or Jacob McGee but a second tier prospect like Jeff Niemann or a lower level prospect like Desmond Jennings would be a nice return for Griffey.

Wheelhouse
06-13-2008, 02:01 PM
Junior might well end up in Tampa but it likely would be after the Reds decline his option. There is just no reason why the Rays would part with any of their talent to get him there - they can have have him for the negotiation of a FA contract after the season's over. My bet is Junior is here for the rest of the year.

???? The reason is a pennant race...

GAC
06-13-2008, 02:15 PM
Would I love to see it? Yeah

Would it be a good fit for Jr? Yeah

But the 64,000 question is... would it be a good fit for the Rays?

Why in the world would the Rays want KGJr? Convince me.

A pennant race? Again... how is he going to contribute to any chance the Rays may have when scouting reports say what we all already see as the obvious, and "they wouldn't recommend him as a thumper worth trading for"?

Sure, after the season, and when we pay him that 4 mil option and his ties to Cincy are severed, he may take a huge pay cut (if the Rays are willing to offer it) to be near home.

I hate to say it (and I wish Jr all the luck in the world); but he is going to have a very hard time finding a job for '09 IMO. Especially one close to home, as he would like. The two teams in Florida have the two lowest payrolls in MLB for a reason. ;)

Players that no longer are in demand due to age, injury, and decreasing skills don't write their own ticket anymore.

MrCinatit
06-13-2008, 02:34 PM
For a long time, friends and I would refer to Tampa Bay as "Baseball's Retirement Home", as it seemed many retired shortly after playing with the Rays (Boggs comes to mind). Hmmm.

I would be all for it, especially if the Rays continue their dream race towards at least a wild-card spot. I for one would be thrilled to see Junior get at least one ring.

letsgojunior
06-13-2008, 03:11 PM
The Heyman piece is so full of inaccuracies and conjecture that it is almost mind-boggling.

First of all, Junior is 38, not 39. Second, his current salary has been reported at $8.2 million, due to his deferred compensation, by ESPN. Third, Junior took a lot more than "4 swings" in Philadelphia. He has *6* plate appearances, including starting the last game of the series, and had two balls miss going out by about a foot combined. Fourth, the notion that the "general soreness" was nothing is completely inconsistent with reports that he had 50 cc's of fluid drained from his knee, as well as two cortisone shots on Memorial Day. Finally, the suggestion that the "general soreness" mysteriously disappeared as soon as he hit Florida is spurious as well. Dusty originally had him benched for the Monday series finale, and he was promptly removed from *3* of the 4 games when the score was in hand.

I have nothing more to contribute to the thread, really, as I don't have many thoughts on trade scenarios. Nevertheless, part of me hates the current atmosphere of sports reporting and reporting in general which permits reporters to essentially write anything they want with minimal fact checking. This is especially bothersome when reporters allege that an injury was fake.

Highlifeman21
06-13-2008, 03:49 PM
For a long time, friends and I would refer to Tampa Bay as "Baseball's Retirement Home", as it seemed many retired shortly after playing with the Rays (Boggs comes to mind). Hmmm.

I would be all for it, especially if the Rays continue their dream race towards at least a wild-card spot. I for one would be thrilled to see Junior get at least one ring.

Fred McGriff, Jose Canseco IIRC.

Griffey can ride off into the sunset of God's Waiting Room playing for the Rays. It'll be great for the Rays, and great for the Reds.

The true definiton of a "win-win".

Spring~Fields
06-13-2008, 03:52 PM
Fred McGriff, Jose Canseco IIRC.

Griffey can ride off into the sunset of God's Waiting Room playing for the Rays. It'll be great for the Rays, and great for the Reds.

The true definiton of a "win-win".

I must first admit that I don't know the Rays team.

Do the Rays have a need for Griffey in right or left, or DH ? Would his salary be appropriate for him as a bench player considering his knee problem this year and history of injury issues?

Degenerate39
06-13-2008, 03:56 PM
I must first admit that I don't know the Rays team.

Do the Rays have a need for Griffey in right or left, or DH ? Would his salary be appropriate for him as a bench player considering his knee problem this year and history of injury issues?

They could use a rightfielder and DH. Leftfield is occupied by Crawford so they could put Griffey in right.

Spring~Fields
06-13-2008, 03:57 PM
I have nothing more to contribute to the thread, really, as I don't have many thoughts on trade scenarios. Nevertheless, part of me hates the current atmosphere of sports reporting and reporting in general which permits reporters to essentially write anything they want with minimal fact checking. This is especially bothersome when reporters allege that an injury was fake.

Yes, I agree, someones credibility is not what it should be, either the writers or the informers. This year alone with the Reds, Fay/Baker interviews have inconsistencies, a lack of norms or common sense, and in a very short time seem to be contradicted. The common practice of asking ones self "so what is the truth", I have just set aside with Fay and Baker, I have had no choice and must just wait for time to indicate the facts.

Will M
06-13-2008, 03:59 PM
The Reds should ask Griffey want he wants to do. if he wants to go to an AL team that is winning and play some OF and some DH then the Reds should get a list from him and trade him for the best return. we aren't winning and he won't be a Red in 2009 so why stay here for the rest of the year? only reason is if he wants to finish his career as a Red.

Spring~Fields
06-13-2008, 04:08 PM
The Reds should ask Griffey want he wants to do. if he wants to go to an AL team that is winning and play some OF and some DH then the Reds should get a list from him and trade him for the best return. we aren't winning and he won't be a Red in 2009 so why stay here for the rest of the year? only reason is if he wants to finish his career as a Red.


That would be a normal course of action if one has a plan to move Griffey.

To ask him where he would want to be traded while informing him that the Reds are planning on letting him go at the end of the season if that is indeed their plan, and that they would like to move him in the near present to another team if possible.

Personally I think that the Reds are going to let Griffey finish out the season in Cincinnati and at the end allow him to ride off into the sunset of his career by paying off their contract liabilities to him vs. accepting the option for him to play in Cincinnati next year. To date as fans anything is speculation on our part.

pahster
06-13-2008, 04:16 PM
Why in the world would the Rays want KGJr? Convince me.


Cliff Floyd is their DH and Griffey might actually draw more fans to the park.

fearofpopvol1
06-13-2008, 04:19 PM
Cliff Floyd is their DH and Griffey might actually draw more fans to the park.

Yep...you took the words right out of my mouth (again)!

Really, I think it boils down to financials more than anything.

Highlifeman21
06-13-2008, 04:31 PM
I must first admit that I don't know the Rays team.

Do the Rays have a need for Griffey in right or left, or DH ? Would his salary be appropriate for him as a bench player considering his knee problem this year and history of injury issues?

With the Rays, Carl Crawford starts in LF, BJ Upton in CF, and then in RF you have guys like Gabe Gross (that's right, I said Gabe Gross), Eric Hinske, Johnny Gomes, and Cliff Floyd seeing time. For DH, you usually see either Gomes, Floyd or Iwamura. Floyd and Hinske have been seeing plenty of time @ 1B recently with Pena on the DL, and you'll see Hinske occasionally over @ 3B. You'll see Aybar @ either 3B or 2B. Bartlett's the everyday SS.

So, IMO, Griffey would be an offensive upgrade over Gross easily, and then he might be equal to Hinske, Gomes or Floyd. I think Iwamura is better offensively than Griffey.

Do the Rays have a need for Griffey? Not necessarily, but he would make them a better and deeper team. Defensively, he's probably equal to Hinske in RF, and possibly Gomes. Floyd and Gross are better than him defensively.

I think the Rays could afford him, and by trading for him (and assumingly not having to give up much) it would send a great message to the fan base that they are serious about trying to make moves for a postseason push. Call it a PR stunt by the Rays (and that might be accurate), but it might be exactly what that franchise needs to take things to the next step.

Once Pena is healthy, I don't know that they need Griffey, but IMO he's better than Gabe Gross, and as I previously said, adding Griffey would make the Rays deeper and better overall.

redsmetz
06-13-2008, 04:41 PM
I went to Marc Lancaster's blog to see if he had anything along these lines, but there was nothing. I sent him an email and will let you know what he says.

Spring~Fields
06-13-2008, 05:05 PM
Okay thanks, Highlifeman21 and Degenerate39.

It does sound like there is a possible match there that would help out both teams and player.

Krusty
06-13-2008, 05:11 PM
Griffey to Tampa Bay makes sense for everyone. If the Reds agree to send $4 million (the cost of his buyout) then the Rays would only be responsible for $12 million of the $16 million owed to Griffey in 2009.

jojo
06-13-2008, 07:28 PM
The Rays would be a great fit for Griffey and a great trading partner for the Reds. The Rays would never give up one of their stud pitching prospects like Wade Davis or Jacob McGee but a second tier prospect like Jeff Niemann or a lower level prospect like Desmond Jennings would be a nice return for Griffey.

Jr for Niemann was an absolutely obvious avenue to pursue before the season started while there was still the potential that another year wasn't catching up to him.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1511320&postcount=92

Now Jr to Tampa is a much harder sell especially since he's not an upgrade-though he's more expensive.

Jr to Tampa makes sense for Jr and his family. I don't think it makes a ton of sense for the Rays.

hebroncougar
06-13-2008, 09:33 PM
The Rays certainly need someone to energize that fan base. They've been my second favorite team ever since 2000, when I started working at the Little League Summer Camp in St. Pete. Weekend games at the Trop were a blast for me, even though they weren't very good.

Unassisted
06-13-2008, 09:33 PM
Jr to Tampa makes sense for Jr and his family. I don't think it makes a ton of sense for the Rays.I think so too. The reasons given why the Rays should do it seem too much like wishful thinking.

oregonred
06-13-2008, 09:43 PM
From SI... Didn't think about he might have wanted to hit #600 in FLorida close to home.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/06/13/heyman.griffeyrays/index.html

"His trade to the Reds nine years ago was originally seen as a homecoming for Griffey, who grew up in Cincinnati. However, back then his first choice was actually Atlanta, which was the big-league city closest to Orlando at the time."

Well, except the Rays were then playing hour away and the Marlins 3.5 hours South. Unless the Marlins WS Win in 1997 was before their entrance into the big-leagues. But don't let the facts stop a good rewrite of history.

KGJ to Tampa makes a ton of sense. For the Rays it means $$$ and publicity and seems the most logical place for KGJ to end his career as a DH and occassional RF.

KronoRed
06-13-2008, 09:53 PM
Well, except the Rays were then playing hour away and the Marlins 3.5 hours South. Unless the Marlins WS Win in 1997 was before their entrance into the big-leagues. But don't let the facts stop a good rewrite of history.


Well technically they were both MLB teams at the time, but the 99 season was not kind to either team with a combined 191 losses that year.

11larkin11
06-13-2008, 09:59 PM
Why would TB want KGJ?

Go look at their attendance.

jojo
06-13-2008, 10:19 PM
Why would TB want KGJ?

Go look at their attendance.

I'm not sure why it's always assumed Jr is a big draw at the gate at this point. Go look at the Reds attendance....

KronoRed
06-13-2008, 10:21 PM
I don't think anything short of a world series will draw people to St.Petersburg land.

Spring~Fields
06-13-2008, 10:38 PM
I'm not sure why it's always assumed Jr is a big draw at the gate at this point. Go look at the Reds attendance....

After tonight I would have to ask Griffey if Boston and a chance at a ring was close enough to home, I liked that Masterson kid, I suppose Griffey and Arroyo to Boston would be out of the question in exchange for Masterson.

OnBaseMachine
06-13-2008, 11:05 PM
3. How much would it take to make the deal?
Here’s the crux of the problem. The Rays are loaded with prospects and have high level talent in pre-arb periods. Some of those are going to be blocked and a deal that helps the team now in return for shaking some things loose is actually a plus. The Reds need pitching and the Rays have this in spades. A package could be built around Jeff Niemann, perhaps, but not Andy Sonnanstine or Edwin Jackson, I’m told. The premium arms in the system are mostly untouchable (Davis, McGee, Price) but there’s enough secondary talent to put something together. The Reds will definitely need some sort of Major League “show something” talent back, which could be what the Rays don’t have, at least in the right spots.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=905

fearofpopvol1
06-13-2008, 11:16 PM
Jr for Niemann was an absolutely obvious avenue to pursue before the season started while there was still the potential that another year wasn't catching up to him.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1511320&postcount=92

Now Jr to Tampa is a much harder sell especially since he's not an upgrade-though he's more expensive.

Jr to Tampa makes sense for Jr and his family. I don't think it makes a ton of sense for the Rays.

I think if the Reds tossed in some money, it would help. While Griffey doesn't draw extra fans in Cincy at this point, I think in a fresh setting, that could change. Especially with the Rays in the thick of things.

jojo
06-13-2008, 11:20 PM
3. How much would it take to make the deal?
Here’s the crux of the problem. The Rays are loaded with prospects and have high level talent in pre-arb periods. Some of those are going to be blocked and a deal that helps the team now in return for shaking some things loose is actually a plus. The Reds need pitching and the Rays have this in spades. A package could be built around Jeff Niemann, perhaps, but not Andy Sonnanstine or Edwin Jackson, I’m told. The premium arms in the system are mostly untouchable (Davis, McGee, Price) but there’s enough secondary talent to put something together. The Reds will definitely need some sort of Major League “show something” talent back, which could be what the Rays don’t have, at least in the right spots.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=905

Of course the biggest factor would be that the Rays would have to actually want Jr.

oregonred
06-13-2008, 11:29 PM
I really don't think KGJ will draw fans to St Pete, but Rays management might get taken in by the possibility.

I actually think the Rays will start drawing some decent crowds next season (2M might be a remote possibility) once the casual Tampa/Orlando sports fan wakes up and realizes the team's incredible talent being assembled isn't a fluke. The Tampa market, unlike the fragmented, uninterested and hopelessly spread out South Florida baseball market, can probably make MLB work. It will never be a top half attendance base, but landing solidly in the 16-20 list wouldn't be too unrealistic.

One factor that may hold the Rays back is that Florida is in a major recession right now, as it is ground zero of the housing collapse which likely will impact the state for years. The economy has largely been built on tourism and buying and selling land, houses and stripmalls back and forth to the next highest bidder (think of California, but without the high paying technology, corporate finance, biotech and digital media job base)

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/baseball/rays/article530144.ece

GAC
06-14-2008, 08:07 AM
Personally, I don't think Tampa Bay (and Marlins) will ever draw great crowds. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always perceived Floridians as ones whose preference is far more geared towards college sports. There are far more other "distractions" during the summer months in Florida that draws crowds away from professional baseball.


Of course the biggest factor would be that the Rays would have to actually want Jr.

Exactly. Jr right now, regardless of who he is, is just not that appealing to any team right now.

blumj
06-14-2008, 08:17 AM
After tonight I would have to ask Griffey if Boston and a chance at a ring was close enough to home, I liked that Masterson kid, I suppose Griffey and Arroyo to Boston would be out of the question in exchange for Masterson.
No offense, but I would really hope so.

IslandRed
06-14-2008, 11:28 AM
Personally, I don't think Tampa Bay (and Marlins) will ever draw great crowds. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always perceived Floridians as ones whose preference is far more geared towards college sports. There are far more other "distractions" during the summer months in Florida that draws crowds away from professional baseball.

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- those are decent markets but both franchises got it wrong from the beginning. Bad teams (for the most part), bad ballparks, bad locations. Admittedly, warm-weather markets tend to be more fickle in their support; like you said, there are other distractions and the casual fans quickly drift away when the team's not good.

The Rays have a chance. I think a good comp for the Rays is the Buccaneers. That franchise was a joke for a long time, so bad for so long you couldn't give away tickets. Then they got a new owner and a new stadium and a uniform makeover and a winning streak, and suddenly everyone in Tampa loved the Bucs. The Rays have those same elements either happening or about to happen. The new stadium is still going to be on the wrong side of the bridge, though.

I think Miami has a chance, too, when the new ballpark is finished. That's a market that should have worked from day one.

Spring~Fields
06-14-2008, 12:37 PM
No offense, but I would really hope so.

Oh none taken, I was just thinking that Jr. was probably going to make a career/location move at the end of the season. I, like any fan, I like to play with trade ideas, holdover from younger days, of course trade ideas are mostly exercises in futility.

IslandRed
06-14-2008, 07:44 PM
Griffey to Tampa Bay makes sense for everyone. If the Reds agree to send $4 million (the cost of his buyout) then the Rays would only be responsible for $12 million of the $16 million owed to Griffey in 2009.

I'm assuming you were trying to say that if the Reds kicked in $4 million, then the Rays' net cost to pick up the option if they wanted to would be $12 million. But Griffey isn't owed $16 million for 2009 until or unless a team picks up that option. The $4 million is what he gets if they don't.

Yachtzee
06-14-2008, 08:00 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again -- those are decent markets but both franchises got it wrong from the beginning. Bad teams (for the most part), bad ballparks, bad locations. Admittedly, warm-weather markets tend to be more fickle in their support; like you said, there are other distractions and the casual fans quickly drift away when the team's not good.

The Rays have a chance. I think a good comp for the Rays is the Buccaneers. That franchise was a joke for a long time, so bad for so long you couldn't give away tickets. Then they got a new owner and a new stadium and a uniform makeover and a winning streak, and suddenly everyone in Tampa loved the Bucs. The Rays have those same elements either happening or about to happen. The new stadium is still going to be on the wrong side of the bridge, though.

I think Miami has a chance, too, when the new ballpark is finished. That's a market that should have worked from day one.

Miami does like baseball. I think I saw a Miami Hurricanes game on TV that had a better attendance than the Marlins game going on that same evening. Part of the problem is that Loria is a real piece of work. However, it should be interesting if they get the new park built. From what I saw, the deal requires the team to change its name to the Miami Marlins. I think it would also be good if they get rid of the black from their uniforms. I've never understood that choice for the Marlins. Black absorbs heat. If you want to attract fans and get them to buy your merchandise, you need to design the uniforms and associated fan apparel so that fans will wear them in and they are appropriate for the weather. Black makes sense for the Rockies, even if it looks bad with purple, because the Rockies play early and late season games in cooler weather. For the Marlins I would almost recommend white hats at home.

The Rays' new ballpark looks sweet. I wouldn't mind seeming them do well, especially if it breaks up the Yankees-Red Sox hegemony.

Big Klu
06-14-2008, 08:49 PM
Miami does like baseball. I think I saw a Miami Hurricanes game on TV that had a better attendance than the Marlins game going on that same evening. Part of the problem is that Loria is a real piece of work. However, it should be interesting if they get the new park built. From what I saw, the deal requires the team to change its name to the Miami Marlins. I think it would also be good if they get rid of the black from their uniforms. I've never understood that choice for the Marlins. Black absorbs heat. If you want to attract fans and get them to buy your merchandise, you need to design the uniforms and associated fan apparel so that fans will wear them in and they are appropriate for the weather. Black makes sense for the Rockies, even if it looks bad with purple, because the Rockies play early and late season games in cooler weather. For the Marlins I would almost recommend white hats at home.

The Rays' new ballpark looks sweet. I wouldn't mind seeming them do well, especially if it breaks up the Yankees-Red Sox hegemony.


I always liked the teal caps that the Marlins wore in their first couple of seasons of existence.

oregonred
06-15-2008, 12:49 AM
Hopefully the Rays management didn't see KGJ's awful series of ABs in the game today. Horrible AB's vs. Wakefield (from the one guy who should have really been tatooing Wake) and the 8th inning letdown. His slugging % is simply abysmal this season.

klw
06-15-2008, 03:10 PM
rumors of TB deal are untrue per KG Jr's agent
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080615&content_id=2933352&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

HokieRed
06-15-2008, 03:17 PM
It's beyond me to see how any team would be interested in Griffey at this point. Who needs a 3 hitter with bat speed enough to hit fastballs on the ground to the second baseman? Any thought that we are going to be able to move Griffey has to be purely a pipe dream, IMHO.

RedRoser
06-15-2008, 04:24 PM
The Sun Deck mentions this "breaking news" from ESPN.
The link from their website is below.

Does anyone have ESPN Insider access to let us know what the article says?:eek:

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors?&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fmlb %2ffeatures%2frumors

Matt700wlw
06-15-2008, 04:32 PM
Griffey's agent denies the reports

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080615&content_id=2933352&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Mario-Rijo
06-15-2008, 04:39 PM
The Sun Deck mentions this "breaking news" from ESPN.
The link from their website is below.

Does anyone have ESPN Insider access to let us know what the article says?:eek:

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors?&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fmlb %2ffeatures%2frumors


Griffey would consider trade to Rays

That's the headline, which has already been refuted. But he (Jr/agent) has refuted rumors before and I heard was actually in talks with other teams for extensions before ok'ing the deals and they fell through because Jr wanted too much money/years. Last year for sure.

paulrichjr
06-15-2008, 05:06 PM
The Sun Deck mentions this "breaking news" from ESPN.
The link from their website is below.

Does anyone have ESPN Insider access to let us know what the article says?:eek:

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors?&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fmlb %2ffeatures%2frumors

Griffey would consider trade to Rays
Ken Griffey Jr. | Reds | Interested: Rays?
Ken Griffey Jr., a longtime resident of the Orlando, Fla., area, has told friends he's monitoring the surprising Tampa Bay Rays as a possible destination for him, should the Reds decide to trade him, according to a report on SI.com.

Griffey, 39, has a no-trade clause but has told friends that if the Rays stay in the playoff race, he'd consider waiving his veto power to play for Tampa Bay.

Krusty
06-15-2008, 06:46 PM
How about a Griffey for Rocco Baldelli deal? The Reds send 4 million (cost of the buyout) to help cover Griffey's contract of 16 million for 2009. Baldelli can be a free agent at the end of the season but if he shows he is capable of playing again, then the Reds could have another gem in a buy low case.

I love another Josh Hamilton sequel.

HokieRed
06-15-2008, 07:16 PM
There is no Josh Hamilton sequel. You had him and you let him get away.

OnBaseMachine
06-15-2008, 07:17 PM
There is no Josh Hamilton sequel. You had him and you let him get away.

They didn't let him get away. They got the best pitcher in baseball in return for him, plus Danny Ray Herrera.

jojo
06-15-2008, 07:20 PM
How about a Griffey for Rocco Baldelli deal? The Reds send 4 million (cost of the buyout) to help cover Griffey's contract of 16 million for 2009. Baldelli can be a free agent at the end of the season but if he shows he is capable of playing again, then the Reds could have another gem in a buy low case.

I love another Josh Hamilton sequel.

Baldelli may never play again and if he does, it certainly wouldn't be CF. He'd basically be a DH.

There is absolutely NO WAY the Rays carry Jr in '09 for $16M.

jojo
06-15-2008, 07:22 PM
They didn't let him get away. They got the best pitcher in baseball in return for him, plus Danny Ray Herrera.

They got a good pitcher having a great run in the NL plus Herrera.

OnBaseMachine
06-15-2008, 07:24 PM
They got a good pitcher having a great run in the NL plus Herrera.

Who is pitching like the best pitcher in baseball.

jojo
06-15-2008, 07:29 PM
Who is pitching like the best pitcher in baseball.

If you assume that what Volquez has done so far is his true talent level and is what should be expected of Volquez going forward than you weren't using hyperbole. You probably weren't evaluating him correctly either.

If you were only talking about what he's done so far, then really my comment isn't inconsistent with yours.

OnBaseMachine
06-15-2008, 07:32 PM
If you assume that what Volquez has done so far is his true talent level and is what should be expected of Volquez going forward than you weren't using hyperbole. You probably weren't evaluating him correctly either.

If you were only talking about what he's done so far, then really my comment isn't inconsistent with yours.

I was talking about what he's doing right now but I also believe he is going to be the ace he is pitching like right now. Of course I don't think he will continue to post a 1.65 ERA but I do think he's going to be one of the best pitchers in baseball for a long time. He's got two electric pitches and his curveball is getting better each time out. He's going to be a top-of-rotation starter for a long time IMO.

membengal
06-15-2008, 10:40 PM
If you assume that what Volquez has done so far is his true talent level and is what should be expected of Volquez going forward than you weren't using hyperbole. You probably weren't evaluating him correctly either.

If you were only talking about what he's done so far, then really my comment isn't inconsistent with yours.

Best. pitcher. in. baseball.

Given how hard it is to find pitching, I don't care what Hamilton accoplishes at this point (and I hope he gets the triple crown), the Reds performed a big-time heist in that deal.

red-in-la
06-16-2008, 04:12 AM
Volquez could still turn into a pumkin that greatly resembles Milt Pappas.

membengal
06-16-2008, 06:13 AM
Hamilton could still tear a hamstring and be the player-that-might-have-been.

And, remind me, did Pappas lay down a first half remotely like what Volquez has? And did his age dial back to 24 when did?

WVRed
06-16-2008, 11:10 AM
How about a Griffey for Rocco Baldelli deal? The Reds send 4 million (cost of the buyout) to help cover Griffey's contract of 16 million for 2009. Baldelli can be a free agent at the end of the season but if he shows he is capable of playing again, then the Reds could have another gem in a buy low case.

I love another Josh Hamilton sequel.

No thanks.

My guess is the return is going to hinge on how much money we send Tampa. If it is little, we might get a Desmond Jennings type. If we send a lot, maybe (holds breath), Jake McGee or Wade Davis.

OnBaseMachine
06-16-2008, 11:22 AM
Volquez could still turn into a pumkin that greatly resembles Milt Pappas.

Yep, and Josh Hamilton could relapse and get kicked out of baseball.

PuffyPig
06-16-2008, 12:23 PM
Volquez could still turn into a pumkin that greatly resembles Milt Pappas.

Couldn't any player?

And people forget that Milt Pappas pitched in the major leagues for 17 years, posting a 209-164 , 3.40 record.

reds44
06-16-2008, 01:58 PM
From Rosenthal:



What if the Reds wanted to trade Ken Griffey Jr. and no one bit?

The notion seems inconceivable, considering that Griffey just hit his 600th home run. But Griffey, 38, has a lower OPS this season than Cristian Guzman, Skip Schumaker and 56 other qualifiers for the National League statistical leaders — all for a salary of $12.5 million.

Those close to Griffey say he wants to play for a contender with the goal of appearing in his first World Series. The Reds currently are in last place in the NL Central, 11½ games behind the Cubs and eight behind the Cardinals in the wild-card race. But with the non-waiver trade deadline nearly seven weeks away, it's too early for Cincinnati to concede.

Griffey possesses a full no-trade clause, effectively giving him the right to choose his next club. He would not necessarily require a team to exercise his $16.5 million option for 2009 as a condition of a deal, sources say. He also is open to a greater number of teams than in the past, when his children were younger and being closer to his home in Orlando was a priority.

His most obvious fit was with his original team, the Seattle Mariners. But the Mariners, who own the worst record in the AL, are extremely unlikely to be buyers.

Which club, then?

Griffey has started 61 of the Reds' 68 games in right field, but most of the NL contenders are set at that position. He also could serve as a designated hitter in the AL, but not as a cost-effective solution.

At the moment, struggling AL teams such as the Cleveland Indians and Toronto Blue Jays aren't sure whether they will buy or sell — and Griffey might be too expensive for either of those mid-market clubs, unless the Reds were willing to assume part of his salary.

The Tampa Bay Rays, in theory, could use Griffey, but their greater need is pitching. The Rays already are getting better right-field production than the Reds — and Griffey, at best, would be only a marginal upgrade over Cliff Floyd and Eric Hinske as a left-handed DH.

Much can change over the next seven weeks, and the Reds might prefer to wait until after the All-Star Game to make any move. Griffey currently ranks third among NL outfielders in the fan balloting. If no trade is made, he would appear in the game in a Cincinnati uniform.

The Reds would save approximately $4 million if they traded Griffey at the deadline, and perhaps receive a mid-level prospect or two in return. Their other option would be to keep Griffey for the rest of the season. Then they could re-sign him at a lower salary or possibly collect two draft picks if he departed as a free agent.

However, to gain draft-pick compensation, the Reds would need to decline Griffey's option, pay him a $4 million buyout and then offer him salary arbitration — a process they almost certainly would prefer to avoid. The Reds could also get the picks if a team signed Griffey before the deadline to offer him arbitration. But such a scenario is unlikely.

It all gets rather complicated, but the bottom line is this: If Griffey wants to play for a contender, the Reds should do everything possible to make it happen.


— Ken Rosenthal

LoganBuck
06-16-2008, 01:59 PM
Couldn't any player?

And people forget that Milt Pappas pitched in the major leagues for 17 years, posting a 209-164 , 3.40 record.

Today that is a $12-15 Million pitcher.

LoganBuck
06-16-2008, 02:02 PM
Draft pick compensation for Griffey? I can't imagine that would happen. His current performance won't warrant much even averaged with his decent season last year.

lollipopcurve
06-16-2008, 02:03 PM
If Griffey wants to play for a contender, the Reds should do everything possible to make it happen.

What does this mean? The Reds should release him and allow him to go to whatever contender he chooses, meanwhile paying his salary in full?

As the national media so often does, Rosenthal positions the Reds as a franchise whose purpose is to supply the franchises that matter (big markets and contenders) with their talent, gratis.

PuffyPig
06-16-2008, 02:15 PM
Draft pick compensation????

How do these writers get jobs?????

You'd have to over Griffey arbitration to get draft picks, which would guarantee him a huge salary.

Zero chance anyone would ever offer Griffey arbitration.

CrackerJack
06-16-2008, 07:40 PM
Draft pick compensation????

How do these writers get jobs?????

You'd have to over Griffey arbitration to get draft picks, which would guarantee him a huge salary.

Zero chance anyone would ever offer Griffey arbitration.

I don't know about zero chance. With the lack of #'s he's putting up this year, how much could he stand to make at his age? Or am I severely under-estimating the illogical nature of MLB arbitration?

But I agree it's highly unlikely at this point. The writer should've included that.

Highlifeman21
06-16-2008, 08:59 PM
How about a Griffey for Rocco Baldelli deal? The Reds send 4 million (cost of the buyout) to help cover Griffey's contract of 16 million for 2009. Baldelli can be a free agent at the end of the season but if he shows he is capable of playing again, then the Reds could have another gem in a buy low case.

I love another Josh Hamilton sequel.

The same Rocco Baldelli that is done for the year with a mysterious fatigue illness?

reds44
06-16-2008, 09:44 PM
The same Rocco Baldelli that is done for the year with a mysterious fatigue illness?
Rocco is done for the year? Somebody better tell him.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080614&content_id=417059&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp



Rocco Baldelli will begin a rehab assignment at Class A Advanced Vero Beach on Monday.

He will be in the designated hitter role on Monday, Wednesday and Friday this week.

"Anything after that is going to be fluid and we're going to work together and try to decide where we go from there," Baldelli said.

Baldelli is on the 60-day disabled list with a mitochondrial disorder, an abnormality that has kept him in a constant stage of fatigue.

Baldelli going to Vero Beach is "an ongoing part of the process," said Andrew Friedman, the Rays' executive vice president of baseball operations. "I wouldn't say at this point there have been any great revelations. But the important thing right now is that he feels good. So right now, we're going to be smart about this thing. And it's a cliche, but we're going to take it one day at a time because, as we've seen in the past, things can change pretty quickly. It's hard to say with any great confidence about what's going to happen here in the next couple of weeks."

Friedman said how Baldelli's body feels after those initial three games and the manner in which he bounces back will dictate what the Rays will do going forward.

"But it's atypical for a rehab assignment," Friedman said. "Usually at the beginning, you can lay out the exact schedule of what someone is going to do, the expectations for getting them back to the Major League level. But this obviously is a different situation and we're going to treat it as such and continue to monitor it very closely. It's certainly a positive development.

"That said, it's one step closer, but we still have a lot of work to do to get him back and helping the team win games."

According to the Collective Bargaining Agreement, the rehab assignment for position players is 20 days, but Friedman said he doesn't know if 20 days will be enough time -- which prompted a followup question regarding whether the Rays were hoping to find some flexibility in the rule.

"I don't know yet, because it's fairly unusual to have a guy go much longer than that," Friedman said. "It's our sense that if we need more time -- and at this point we have no idea of whether we will or won't -- that there will be ways to figure it out within the rules."

Baldelli is optimistic about the prospect of being ready in the prescribed amount of time, but manager Joe Maddon cautioned that it's not just about Baldelli being ready to play.

"Part of it will be performance-oriented, that he's playing and he's playing well," Maddon said. "We've got something good going on right now. When a guy like him is ready to come back, which we really want to happen, he has to be playing well, too."

Baldelli has not played since May 15, 2007. Under terms of the long-term contract he signed after the 2005 season, the Rays had until April 1 to decide whether to pick up his $6 million option for the 2009 season, and they did not. By declining the option, Tampa Bay must pay him $4 million and Baldelli will become a free agent at the end of the season. Had the Rays exercised the option, the team would have had to face the same question of whether to renew him for 2010 and 2011 at a cost of $17 million or buy him out at $2 million.

Baldelli, 26, has a .282 career average in four Major League seasons with 48 home runs and 221 RBIs. He hit just .204 with five homers and 12 RBIs in 35 games in 2007.



He's 1-2 with a walk and 2 RBIs tonight.

Highlifeman21
06-16-2008, 09:52 PM
I hadn't kept up with Rocco Baldelli after listening to Olney and Kurkjean say that he had a mystery fatigue illness and was done for the year.

Good for him if he makes it back from whatever it was he had.

4256 Hits
06-16-2008, 10:42 PM
I don't know about zero chance. With the lack of #'s he's putting up this year, how much could he stand to make at his age? Or am I severely under-estimating the illogical nature of MLB arbitration?

But I agree it's highly unlikely at this point. The writer should've included that.

It is zero! The most they could cut his salary in arbitration is 20%. There is no way the Reds are going to pay him 10 mil next year plus the 4 mil buy out.

oregonred
06-16-2008, 11:33 PM
SLG% dropoff is alarming this season in nearly 250 AB.

2008: .392

Career avg = .549 and in aggregate KGJ has been pretty consistently close to that number since joining the Reds in 2000.

Where has the power gone in 2008?

red-in-la
06-17-2008, 12:41 AM
Hamilton could still tear a hamstring and be the player-that-might-have-been.

And, remind me, did Pappas lay down a first half remotely like what Volquez has? And did his age dial back to 24 when did?

No, in some ways he might have been better.......since you guys don't respect win-loss, how about 209 innings followed by 217 innings? 33 and 34 starts his first two years with the Reds. But alas, he tanked in 68 and got traded where he found himself again almost immeadiately and returned to continue a fine career.

Of course, the guy he was traded for was doing things like DOMINATING the AL league......

Frank Robinson might have come apart and made it a lose-lose deal also, but he didn't and the worst trade in Reds history was history.

Question remains as it was when I agued it back in April......what does Volquez have to accomplish to make it a win-win trade? Hamilton is doing pretty much what I said he would do.

WVRedsFan
06-17-2008, 01:53 AM
No, in some ways he might have been better.......since you guys don't respect win-loss, how about 209 innings followed by 217 innings? 33 and 34 starts his first two years with the Reds. But alas, he tanked in 68 and got traded where he found himself again almost immeadiately and returned to continue a fine career.

Of course, the guy he was traded for was doing things like DOMINATING the AL league......

Frank Robinson might have come apart and made it a lose-lose deal also, but he didn't and the worst trade in Reds history was history.

Question remains as it was when I agued it back in April......what does Volquez have to accomplish to make it a win-win trade? Hamilton is doing pretty much what I said he would do.
Totally agree and here's why. Given Hamilton's statistics this year, assuming that he would have done as well in Cincy, how many more games would the Reds have won with the added offense, something they've struggled with this year? Who knows, but I bet we'd have a couple more wins-like 35-35 now.

One thing in valuing pitching is that you can go 9 innings and allow only 3 runs, but if you don't score 4, you still lose. The offensive makeup of this team is the worst we've seen since forever. That said, it doesn't mean I'm still rednecked about the trade, i'm just saying that pitching is wonderful, but not the whole ballgame, regardless of what everyone says. We;ve seen the hittter not hit this year and with improved pitching we still stand with a losing record. It's time to make some changes and it starts with offense.

OnBaseMachine
06-17-2008, 01:55 AM
And how bad would this pitching be if Matt Belisle and Josh Fogg were pitching every 5th day instead of Edinson Volquez? Give me Edinson Volquez over Josh Hamilton anyday.

fearofpopvol1
06-17-2008, 01:58 AM
No, in some ways he might have been better.......since you guys don't respect win-loss, how about 209 innings followed by 217 innings? 33 and 34 starts his first two years with the Reds. But alas, he tanked in 68 and got traded where he found himself again almost immeadiately and returned to continue a fine career.

Of course, the guy he was traded for was doing things like DOMINATING the AL league......

Frank Robinson might have come apart and made it a lose-lose deal also, but he didn't and the worst trade in Reds history was history.

Question remains as it was when I agued it back in April......what does Volquez have to accomplish to make it a win-win trade? Hamilton is doing pretty much what I said he would do.

And Volquez has pretty much been doing what you said he wasn't going to do too. As an added bonus, it looks like Herrera is going to be a servicable reliever as well. Volquez, as of now, is worth more wins than Hamilton is, if you're looking at the numbers.

Krusty
06-18-2008, 05:54 PM
I don't know why everyone is upset over Hamilton being dealt for Volquez. Bottom line is it was a great deal for both sides.

Now you trade Griffey for Baldelli and Dunn for Matt Kemp and it would be interesting to see what a Kemp, Baldelli and Bruce outfield would be like.