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Reds Fanatic
06-13-2008, 02:54 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3441886


Replay is coming to Major League Baseball -- and supposedly sooner than previously thought.

Citing two high-ranking officials within the World Umpires Association, USA Today reported on its Web site Friday that MLB wants to equip itself with replay, for deciding disputed home run calls, by Aug. 1.

MLB presented the August date to umpires on Wednesday, for the purpose of using replay on "boundary calls" -- was a fence or wall cleared or was a ball fair or foul? -- for home runs.

The matter still must be bargained between MLB and WUA officials before replay's implementation.

"It's all premature," MLB spokesman Rich Levin told USA Today. "Nothing has been decided yet."

MLB has been making tentative plans to experiment with replay in the Arizona Fall League, a baseball official with knowledge of those discussions told ESPN.com recently. As recently as May 30, the time frame considered for launching replay at the major league level was next season.

The idea of replay has gained momentum after umpires botched several home run rulings on national TV in May.

At Yankee Stadium, umpires reversed their correct call and concluded a home run by the Mets' Carlos Delgado was foul.

The following night in Houston, umpires mistakenly ruled a ball off a center-field wall was in play, prompting a reconfiguration at Minute Maid Park the next day.

And, again at Yankee Stadium, a ball hit by Alex Rodriguez that struck a stairway beyond the outfield fence and bounced back into the outfield was ruled a double when it should have been a home run.

UKFlounder
06-14-2008, 09:27 AM
A more detailed story now.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3443088

In an instant replay plan currently being considered by Major League Baseball, video review of disputed calls would take place at a central location and would be the responsibility of the umpire crew chief at each game, according to an umpires' union memo obtained by ESPN The Magazine.


Umpires' Memo On
Instant Replay
The following is the text of a memo to Major League Baseball umpires from their union outlining how the instant replay system currently being considered by MLB might work:

Major League Baseball is proposing to roll out an instant replay system as early as this summer. Here is a summary of the system that is currently being considered by the league:

How soon does MLB want to implement instant replay?
August 1, 2008.

What calls would be subject to instant replay?
Whether possible homers are fair or foul. So-called "boundary" calls -- whether balls clear fences, leave playing fields, hit poles, or are affected by fan interference.

Is instant replay mandatory in these situations?
No, instant replay will be available for use at the sole discretion of the crew chief if there is uncertainty among the crew as to what happened.

What camera feeds will be available for instant replay?
Whatever feeds are available for each game  television broadcast feeds, home and visiting team feeds, and MLB.com feeds.

How will instant replay work?
MLB is in the process of setting up an instant replay video "war" room at MLB Advanced Media's offices. The war room will be staffed by a replay official (at this point, MLB is saying that there will be only one replay official on duty at any one time) and several video technicians. At least initially, and for an undetermined period of time thereafter, the eight current group supervisors will take turns serving as the replay official for one week every couple of months or so. Later, it is anticipated that there will be a transition to former umpires, who would be properly trained as replay officials.

In the event a crew chief decides to use instant replay, the crew chief would use a dedicated communications link that will be available in each ball park to contact the replay official. The replay official will tell the crew chief what the replay official sees on the video replay or replays. The replay official will only report what he sees on the replay video or videos, and will not offer any advice or recommendation as to what the call should be. Based on all the information available to the crew chief (including what the crew saw in real time, and what the replay official sees on video), the crew chief will decide whether there is "clear and convincing evidence" that the original call by the crew is correct or incorrect. The original call would be reversed only if the crew chief felt there was a "clear error" on the original call.

The effect of any overturned call (for example, the placement of runners and the batter) would be governed by all current rules, any new rules specifically developed in connection with instant replay, and the crew chief's judgment.

There would be no limit on the number of times that a crew chief could use instant replay in a game, but MLB believes that instant replay would be used only about 10 times per season.

A crew chief's decision to use or not use instant replay on a particular call would be final, and not subject to second-guessing by team or league personnel. Team personnel would not have any right to demand instant replay.

A crew chief's decision on a call after using instant replay would be final and not subject to further challenge or dispute by team personnel.

Major League Baseball is attempting to institute instant replay on home run calls before the end of this season, according to two sources familiar with those discussions. However, in order to accomplish that, MLB still needs to settle on a replay system that would satisfy everyone involved, from the umpires to commissioner Bud Selig.


An outline of how instant replay might work was detailed in the memo, sent to umpires by their union this week. On Friday, USA Today first reported that the umpires were advised that instant replay could be in use as soon as Aug. 1.



Major League Baseball officials said Friday that the details of the plan being discussed are still preliminary.



If the replay plan laid out in the memo is adopted, it will differ significantly than what is used in the National Football League, as major league managers would have no power to prompt a replay. In the NFL, head coaches initiate the use of replay, except in the last two minutes of each half, when league officials determine which calls should be reviewed.



According to the memo, the replay will not be done on-site at each ballpark, but in a replay war room at Major League Baseball's Advanced Media offices in New York. The chief of each umpiring crew would have means to communicate with the war room directly.



The memo lays out the following ground rules, according to the current proposal:



An umpire supervisor would serve as a replay coordinator, and would communicate with the crew chief.



The umpires would have access to all video feeds -- television broadcast feeds, home and visiting feeds, and MLB.com. This would allay concerns that a home team television producer would serve as a filter for what replays the umpires can see.



It is expected that retired umpires eventually will play some role in replay supervision.



Major League Baseball believes replay would be used only about 10 times each season.



According to the memo, the replay official would tell the crew chief what the replay official sees on the video replay or replays -- and would not offer any advice or recommendation as to what the call should be. The crew chief would then decide whether there is "clear and convincing evidence" that the original call by the crew is correct or incorrect. The original call would be reversed only if the crew chief felt there was a "clear error" on the original call.



Furthermore, the crew chief's decision to use or not use instant replay on a particular call would be final, and not subject to second-guessing by team or league personnel. Team personnel would not have any right to demand instant replay.



The crew chief's decision on a call after using instant replay would also be final.




As recently as a few weeks ago, baseball officials were still talking about experimenting with replay during the Arizona Fall League, the World Baseball Classic and spring training before implementing it in the big leagues. But so many people within the sport have reached the conclusion that replay is now inevitable, they're pushing to get it in place as soon as possible.



Their thinking, according to the same sources, is that if there no longer is any serious opposition to the principle of using replay to decide home run calls, it would be embarrassing to the sport to have a big game down the stretch, or in October, decided by a blown home run call. They're hoping to settle on specifics that would be acceptable to Selig, the umpires' union and the players' union.



However, a source told ESPN.com he believes the umpires are in favor of replay as long as it's done in a way that protects and supports them. And while Selig still hasn't given the go-ahead, it's believed he would support a system that would preserve the character of the sport and not delay games significantly.



The idea of replay has gained momentum after umpires botched several home run rulings on national TV in May.



At Yankee Stadium, umpires reversed their correct call and concluded a home run by the Mets' Carlos Delgado was foul.



The following night in Houston, umpires mistakenly ruled a ball off a center-field wall was in play, prompting a reconfiguration at Minute Maid Park the next day.



And, again at Yankee Stadium, a ball hit by Alex Rodriguez that struck a stairway beyond the outfield fence and bounced back into the outfield was ruled a double when it should have been a home run.



Last November, general managers voted 25-5 to try replay on boundary calls. At the time, Selig took the recommendation under advisement.



Selig, like many of the game's traditionalists, has always liked the human element of baseball, and that meant tolerating an occasional wrong call by an umpire. He also worried about further bogging down a sport that has been criticized for its slow pace.

Jpup
06-14-2008, 12:36 PM
how are you going to start something like this in the middle of a season. stupid.

Homer Bailey
06-14-2008, 12:44 PM
I think it's pretty clear this needs to be done. Those that watch on TV should never know more than the umpires on the field know. I think they probably are doing this midseason to make sure it's ready for the postseason. It's only a matter of time before they're using the replay for base calls as well though.

pahster
06-14-2008, 12:48 PM
how are you going to start something like this in the middle of a season. stupid.

Why? Watching a video replay doesn't require any kind of special training.

UKFlounder
06-14-2008, 12:49 PM
I think it's pretty clear this needs to be done. Those that watch on TV should never know more than the umpires on the field know.

Those watching on TV will still see more than the umpires - ball/strike calls, catches/traps in the field, fair or foul down the line, safe or out, balk or not, etc.

This system is just taking a very small percentage of plays to review, leaving the vast majority of calls unreviewed or unchallenged.

If that's what they want, so be it.

Homer Bailey
06-14-2008, 12:56 PM
Those watching on TV will still see more than the umpires - ball/strike calls, catches/traps in the field, fair or foul down the line, safe or out, balk or not, etc.

This system is just taking a very small percentage of plays to review, leaving the vast majority of calls unreviewed or unchallenged.

If that's what they want, so be it.

It's a start. The home run call is arguably the toughest for the umpires because they aren't close to the call like they are at the bases. The outfield trap/no trap might be the next to go under review. I doubt we see the base calls go under review any time soon.

AmarilloRed
06-14-2008, 02:10 PM
As long as the umpires play a part in the instant replay, I think the system can work. It has been the fear that they would not be a part of the process that has held up instant replay in baseball for so long, IMO. I hope instant replay on home runs is just the first step, and we will see a more complete system later on.

Unassisted
06-14-2008, 07:17 PM
how are you going to start something like this in the middle of a season. stupid.I don't see any reason not to. :confused:

Chip R
06-14-2008, 10:14 PM
10 times a season? Are they high?

Unassisted
08-20-2008, 03:45 PM
Looks like the umps are going to be kicking and screaming as they're dragged into this.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=3543435&type=story


Umps currently cool on replay, boycott conference call with MLB
Associated Press

NEW YORK -- Umpires want baseball to take another look at instant replay.

Umps said their governing board voted Tuesday to boycott a conference call with management intended to discuss implementing replay, angry that their concerns aren't being addressed.

Major League Baseball responded by saying it canceled the Wednesday call because it doesn't have a replay agreement with the union.

"A lot of the procedural issues necessary for instant replay to be implemented need to be worked out," World Umpires Association spokesman Lamell McMorris said. "Major League Baseball needs to step up to the plate and iron out these issues."

Umpires say they're unhappy that replay equipment is being installed away from the field in nearly all major league ballparks and say MLB wants to limit the number of umpires allowed to review replay monitors.

They also aren't pleased that MLB wants them to discuss the replays with umpire supervisors in New York before making a decision on whether to reverse a call. They claim MLB may not be able to provide replays for some rescheduled games.

"I'm not going to go through these one by one. I will tell you that on a number of them, the comments are simply not accurate," said Rob Manfred, MLB's executive vice president for labor relations. "For example, we've had an understanding with the WUA for some time that the crew chief and the crew chief only would be the one responsible for reviewing the video and making the decision on instant replay.

"There are other issues that remain to be worked out. It is my general policy that I don't comment when I'm trying to bargain but I remain confident that we're gong to be able to make a deal."

Baseball has started installing equipment in ballparks, hoping to get a replay system up and running this month. It would be used for boundary calls, such as determining whether balls cleared fences for home runs and whether potential homers near foul poles were fair.

McMorris said that other than at Chase Field in Phoenix, the equipment will cause umpires to leave the field.

"Thus, there will be a lack of transparency and obviousness for the public as to what is going on when instant replay is under way," he said.

McMorris said the procedures and limitations were proposed by Jimmie Lee Solomon, MLB's executive vice president for baseball operations.

"There may be situations where the umpires will have to leave the field in shifts so that everyone can view the video while leaving the requisite number of umpires on the field," McMorris said. "This could create a 'Laurel and Hardy' effect, and may cause delay-of-game problems."

McMorris said Solomon wants some umpires to remain on the field because "he doesn't trust the teams to behave themselves in their absence." McMorris also said MLB hasn't thought about where to place batters and runners after a changed call, or how crew chiefs will communicate decisions to the teams, official scorer, media and fans.

McMorris maintained Solomon originally wanted only an umpire supervisor to review replays, but that umpires objected and said they wanted to see the video for themselves. In addition, McMorris said MLB hasn't figured out how to secure the cabinets where the equipment is stored, claiming that in some ballparks the location is in public areas.

"The umpires raised concerns and brought potential problems to Solomon's attention at least six weeks ago," McMorris said.

Solomon did not return a call seeking comment and was en route to Beijing, MLB spokesman Rich Levin said.

REDREAD
08-20-2008, 04:23 PM
Looks like the umpires are going to get dragged kicking and screaming into this one.

This is downright silly


McMorris said Solomon wants some umpires to remain on the field because "he doesn't trust the teams to behave themselves in their absence."


What could the players possibly do while the umpires are gone? The idea that players need umpires to babysit them is silly.

Roy Tucker
08-20-2008, 04:29 PM
What could the players possibly do while the umpires are gone? The idea that players need umpires to babysit them is silly.

Rabbit fingers behind the umps heads? Shadow puppets on the Jumbotron? Hotfoots in the dugout?

KronoRed
08-20-2008, 10:06 PM
Anything the umpires hate is something I'm a fan of.

RFS62
08-20-2008, 10:08 PM
I can't wait for a questec type system to take over balls and strikes

RedFanAlways1966
08-20-2008, 10:30 PM
I am in no way defending the umpires, but I am against instant replay in baseball. I guess I am old-fashioned and just prefer it the way it has always been done. I agree with it being used in football and basketball, but I do not like it being involved in baseball. I know that it might correct a ruling, but there is something about the "human element in baseball" that I like. If umpires are consistently bad and/or make a lot of bad calls, then replace them. Same as would happen to most of us at our jobs if our performance was sub-par.

By reading above it seems most like it. I am not going to argue and I understand those who want everything to be called as close to perfect as possible. I just want some aspects of the game to stay the same as it was way back when the 1st Cooperstown enshrinees were playing.

RFS62
08-20-2008, 11:14 PM
I'm a traditionalist in many ways, but waxing philosophic over a history of bad calls isn't one of them.

It's not that the umps are inept. It's just too hard to be consistent across both leagues with all the different styles of umps. I'm talking more about balls and strikes now.

There's nothing warm and fuzzy about the strike zone the Braves pitchers used to get. It was a travesty.

Chip R
08-20-2008, 11:51 PM
Looks like the umps have OKed it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080821/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_instant_replay


Umpires, MLB sign agreement on instant replay
By RONALD BLUM,
AP Baseball Writer

Baseball umpires and management signed an agreement Wednesday that will allow the sport to start using instant replay to help determine calls on the field. Major League Baseball still hasn't determined when the use of replays will start.

Installation of equipment has been going on at ballparks, and officials have said they hoped to start using replay in August. Replays will be limited to boundary calls, such as determining whether fly balls were fair or foul, or whether they went over fences.

"I told our members that it's just another tool that we can use to get the play right, not to look at it as a negative, but a positive," World Umpires Association president John Hirschbeck said. "As hard as you try, as much as you hustle, sometimes with just the landscape of the ballparks nowadays, it's hard to tell. So if we can get it right, you know what, let's use it as a tool to get it right."

The deal was signed by management lawyer Dan Halem and WUA attorney Brian Lam one day after a WUA spokesman went public with complaints over negotiations.

After haggling over final details, the sides exchanged proposals Tuesday night.

"We reached an agreement. Final decision with respect to moving ahead has not been made yet, but we have an agreement with the umpires," said Rob Manfred, baseball's executive vice president of labor relations.

Finalization of the agreement was first reported by murraychass.com.

"We're going to move forward with the understanding the sides will come to the table later and iron out some of the remaining issues," said WUA spokesman Lamell McMorris, who criticized management on Tuesday. "Instant replay will be a work in progress."

Umpire crew chiefs will determine when replay will be used and will make the final decisions on calls. Up to three umpires will be able to look at the replays, which will be provided from a "war room" at Major League Baseball Advanced Media in New York. It's possible as many as five umps could review the replays during postseason.

Umpire supervisors at BAM may speak with the technicians but will not confer with the umpires about the calls, Hirschbeck said.

The WUA had decided to boycott a Wednesday conference call in which crew chiefs were to go over replay with MLB officials. Manfred had said Tuesday that MLB canceled the call.

"They'll be some form of training," McMorris said. "We'll just have to figure out when and how."

Hirschbeck said that as part of the final agreement, all umpires will be trained, not just crew chiefs.

Baseball officials have also been talking to the players' association about replay. MLB has maintained the legal position that an agreement with players isn't necessary.

"We're still in discussions with them," players' association general counsel Michael Weiner said.

Unassisted
08-27-2008, 09:16 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=3554357&type=story


MLB approves replay in series that start Thursday

NEW YORK -- Replay ball!

Umpires will be allowed to check video on home run calls starting Thursday after Major League Baseball, guardian of America's most traditional sport, reversed its decades-long opposition to instant replay.

"Like everything else in life, there are times that you have to make an adjustment," baseball commissioner Bud Selig said following Tuesday's announcement. "My opposition to unlimited instant replay is still very much in play. I really think that the game has prospered for well over a century now doing things the way we did it."

The 74-year-old Selig, who described himself as "old fashioned" and an admirer of baseball's "human element," softened his opposition following a rash of blown calls this year.

For now, video will be used only on so-called "boundary calls," such as determining whether fly balls went over the fence, whether potential home runs were fair or foul and whether there was fan interference on potential home runs.

"Any time you try to change something in baseball, it's both emotional and difficult," Selig said. "There's been some concern that, well, if you start here, look what it's going to lead to. Not as long as I'm the commissioner."

Replay will go into use with three series scheduled to open Thursday: Philadelphia at the Chicago Cubs, Minnesota at Oakland and Texas at the Los Angeles Angels. For other games, replays will be available to umpires starting Friday.

Cubs manager Lou Piniella wondered whether a team could challenge a call.

"I'd love to be able to throw a red hankie or a green hankie. Imagine being able to throw something on the field and not be ejected," he said. "I shouldn't say it's not going to work, but this could turn into a little bit of a fiasco initially."

The NFL first used replay to aid officials in 1986, the NHL in 1991 and the NBA in 2002. Even at stuffy old Wimbledon, technology has been used on line calls since 2006. Replay equipment to help determine calls was in place at this year's Little League World Series.

Fan interference has been a big issue in baseball, with almost constant debate since Jeffrey Maier reached over the wall and gave Derek Jeter a home run during the 1996 AL Championship Series. Many blown calls have occurred at newer ballparks, where fans are closer to the field have the ability to reach over fences.

"In this day and age, where all these ballparks are being built now where people can reach out over the outfield fence and catch balls, fan interference is becoming more and more of an issue," Atlanta Braves pitcher Tom Glavine said.

Detroit pitcher Kenny Rogers called the decision "a slap in the face of umpires that have been here for a long time" and said the decision might have been made because Alex Rodriguez lost a home run on a blown call May 21.

"It overshot the mark by far just because, what, in a Yankee game someone didn't get a homer? Please. It's happened thousands of times," Rogers said. "That's part of the game. It's the beauty of the game. Mistakes are made."

Baseball general managers voted 25-5 last November to recommend use the technology, and baseball's lawyers spent recent weeks finalizing agreements with the unions for umpires and for players.

"I find it very strange that, with 30 games to go in the season, that they would start it now. I find that very peculiar," Baltimore Orioles manager Dave Trembley said. "If they wanted it so bad, what took them so long to get it going and why wait until this particular point in time?"

Baseball officials wanted to avoid having a situation in the postseason where fans with access to televisions and viewers at home knew what the correct call was but the umpires on the field did not.

"Some people thought that we ought to wait until the postseason," Selig said. "I'd rather go into the postseason knowing that we've already used it."

Video from available broadcast feeds -- not every team televises every game -- will be collected at the office of Major League Baseball Advanced Media in New York, where it will be monitored by a technician and either an umpire supervisor or a retired umpire. If the crew chief at a game decides replay needs to be checked, umpires will leave the field, technicians at MLBAM will show umpires the video and the crew chief will make the call, overturning the original decision only if there is "clear and convincing evidence."

Leaving the dugout to argue a call following a replay will result in an automatic ejection. Replays of the boundary calls will not be shown on stadium video boards, MLB executive vice president for baseball operations Jimmie Lee Solomon said.

MLB said replay delays will be offset by fewer arguments.

"So if the game is held up for a couple of minutes a couple of times a year, I think that's OK," New York Yankees pitcher Mike Mussina said. "It's certainly not going to be seen as often as it is in the NFL."

Selig would consider refinements during the offseason but boldly said he never will allow replays to be used for other calls, such as determining whether a ball was caught or trapped. The use for safe/out calls hasn't been considered.

"I believe that because of the configuration of ballparks, both new and old, that calling home runs is really much more difficult than it once was," Selig said. "I don't believe in the use of instant replay for other things."

Players generally agreed.

"I just don't want it to open up Pandora's box, with calls at home and calls at the bases and eventually behind the plate," Tampa Bay third baseman Evan Longoria said.

The players' association agreed to replay for the balance of the season but retained the right, through Dec. 10, to ask for additional bargaining for future years. If players don't, the replay agreement will run through 2011.

Union head Donald Fehr doesn't anticipate an expansion of what calls replays can be used to determine.

"We haven't talked about that. I think that that's unlikely over the term of this agreement," he said. "What we'll obviously do is look at it after the World Series. We're hopeful that we're going to say it was great."

Umpire Gary Cederstrom said his crew had a training session Tuesday at Yankee Stadium.

"We talked to the technicians and he explained what they're going to be doing," he said. "We just basically did a dry run."

OnBaseMachine
09-23-2008, 10:18 PM
Instant replay is crap. Joey Votto got robbed of a two run home run tonight. The replays showed the ball clearly hit a seat behind the wall but the umps reviewed it and called it a single. What a joke. Instead of 4-1 Reds it's only 2-1. Looks like instant replay is going to be a big failure if they can't get the calls correct.

reds44
09-23-2008, 11:03 PM
It was one call. No system is perfect.

OnBaseMachine
09-23-2008, 11:09 PM
I know it was one call, but if they are going to hold the game up six minutes then they need to make sure they get the call right. They are lucky this wasn't a playoff game.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-23-2008, 11:13 PM
I know it was one call, but if they are going to hold the game up six minutes then they need to make sure they get the call right. They are lucky this wasn't a playoff game.

Exactly.

Highlifeman21
09-23-2008, 11:16 PM
I know it was one call, but if they are going to hold the game up six minutes then they need to make sure they get the call right. They are lucky this wasn't a playoff game.

Definitely frustrating if they have a new system in place to correct the old system, and the new system makes the same mistakes as the old system....

I have a feeling we'll see many tweaks of the replay system for MLB.

Tony Cloninger
09-23-2008, 11:16 PM
Said it in the game thread.....should have pasted it here......The human element of officials is something that does not appeal to me.
Bad balls and strikes calls from pitch to pitch....forget inning.....it's pitch to pitch. What is PI in football? Sometimes it is and sometimes it is not.....and then the phantom calls or non-calls in basketball.

The human element is the players.....not officials making bad calls. Only the players should determine the outcome...not an official/umpire/ref.

Superdude
09-23-2008, 11:18 PM
It was one call. No system is perfect.

If it's a slowed down, zoomed in replay, yes it should be perfect.

OnBaseMachine
09-23-2008, 11:34 PM
The AP agrees it was a homer:

In the seventh inning, umpires used the instant replay to verify a hit by Votto was not a home run.

Replays appeared to show the ball hit the top of the right-field fence, bounced into an empty seat and rebounded back on the field. But officials ruled it stayed in play for a single.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=280923118

KronoRed
09-23-2008, 11:42 PM
Replay ump protecting his guys on the field perhaps?

WVPacman
09-23-2008, 11:59 PM
Im really glad that instant replay is now in baseball b/c that was a great call by the umps. :thumbdown

RedsManRick
09-23-2008, 11:59 PM
With all the technology we have, there is absolutely no excuse for getting border calls wrong. Sure, we still need umps to administer the game and manage the people, but this sort of thing is just sad and embarrassing.

OnBaseMachine
09-24-2008, 12:39 AM
I just went back and watched the replay of the Votto hitand it was clearly a home run. The ball hit the top of the wall and bounced off a seat in the front row. I'm not sure how they missed that call. The boxscore says Votto went 2-for-4 with two singles but he should have been 3-for-4 with a single, triple, home run and 3 RBI.

LoganBuck
09-24-2008, 12:55 AM
A Cubs conspiracy! Soto fans are getting nervous, and MLB is trying to suppress Votto's numbers. Tonight would have made Votto and Soto's numbers much closer.

WVRedsFan
09-24-2008, 01:50 AM
I just went back and watched the replay of the Votto hitand it was clearly a home run. The ball hit the top of the wall and bounced off a seat in the front row. I'm not sure how they missed that call. The boxscore says Votto went 2-for-4 with two singles but he should have been 3-for-4 with a single, triple, home run and 3 RBI.

The error may be changed, but we saw the flaws in the replay system MLB has put into place tonight.

The horrible camera work that FSN does on games does not make the replay a viable option. If you watch NFL games (and I admit I've watched less than a dozen in the last 10 years), various camera angles are presented with stop motion and all that. tonight, there wasn't even a closeup. Simply horrible. The cheapness of Fox broadcasts will make this rule null and void. to be frank, I couldn't tell if it hit a seat or not from the angle they used which is inexcusable. The ball appeared (in the replay) to hit the top of the wall and then reichcet back onto the field (which after much replays using my DVR doesn't make any sense), but it was hard to tell. HD would have made a better case, but the regional networks who carrythe lion's share of game probably can't afford HD for every game. Until they do and put more cameras out there, this is what you get.

Votto is a beast who will be a big star for the Reds if the franchise doesn't get antsy and trade him for the coveted fifth starter. Yes, pitching is an important part of the game, but offense is a necessary component. Ignoring this means we have more 2-1 games which could go either way. I prefer 4-1 games or better. We had one tongiht if only they had a better camera angle.

RedsFan75
09-24-2008, 08:49 AM
Yeah, that replay was atrocious.... I can understand why it was 'inconclusive' but if they are going to use replay the MLB should set up a set of replay cameras watching the HR area, and forget what the broadcast guys show.

bucksfan2
09-24-2008, 10:41 AM
The error may be changed, but we saw the flaws in the replay system MLB has put into place tonight.

The horrible camera work that FSN does on games does not make the replay a viable option. If you watch NFL games (and I admit I've watched less than a dozen in the last 10 years), various camera angles are presented with stop motion and all that. tonight, there wasn't even a closeup. Simply horrible. The cheapness of Fox broadcasts will make this rule null and void. to be frank, I couldn't tell if it hit a seat or not from the angle they used which is inexcusable. The ball appeared (in the replay) to hit the top of the wall and then reichcet back onto the field (which after much replays using my DVR doesn't make any sense), but it was hard to tell. HD would have made a better case, but the regional networks who carrythe lion's share of game probably can't afford HD for every game. Until they do and put more cameras out there, this is what you get.

Votto is a beast who will be a big star for the Reds if the franchise doesn't get antsy and trade him for the coveted fifth starter. Yes, pitching is an important part of the game, but offense is a necessary component. Ignoring this means we have more 2-1 games which could go either way. I prefer 4-1 games or better. We had one tongiht if only they had a better camera angle.

The game on FSN for the Reds was in HD. These are my biggest complaint with replay. If you aren't going to get it right, then why use it? If you cant make a decision on all calls, then why use it?

Chip R
09-24-2008, 11:03 AM
And in the end, even though the technology showed the ball was a home run, the human element said different.

bucksfan
09-24-2008, 12:57 PM
With all the technology we have, there is absolutely no excuse for getting border calls wrong. Sure, we still need umps to administer the game and manage the people, but this sort of thing is just sad and embarrassing.

That's my view also. I thought it was a joke last night. If they are going to have instant replay then for goodness sakes we need a better camera shot than that! But even so, to me it seemed clearly a home run, so I cannot fathom how after viewing it in slow mo, even given the shots they had, they could not arrive at that. And for it to take that long before : a) they decided to view it (should be 15 second discussion) and b) they made their decision was laughable.

If that is how they are going to handle IR, then I change my mind - they should not have it. Because this is the exact type of play they need to be able to get right with it, and it was poorly done all around IMO.

OnBaseMachine
09-27-2008, 12:40 AM
Instant replay is looking like a huge failure at this point. As bad as the missed Votto homer call was on Tuesday, it doesn't come close to the awful call tonight in San Francisco. With the Dodgers winning 2-0 in the 6th inning, Benji Molina hit a flyball to deep right field. The ball hit at least a foot below the top of the wall and it was correctly ruled a double. The umps decided to get together anyway and replay it just to make sure. After looking at replay they overturned it and ruled it a home run, which tied the game at 2-2. Unreal. The replays clearly showed the ball hit at least a foot below the top of the wall and somehow they overturned it! Once again they are lucky this wasn't a playoff game.

mbgrayson
09-27-2008, 08:08 AM
Instant replay is looking like a huge failure at this point. As bad as the missed Votto homer call was on Tuesday, it doesn't come close to the awful call tonight in San Francisco. With the Dodgers winning 2-0 in the 6th inning, Benji Molina hit a flyball to deep right field. The ball hit at least a foot below the top of the wall and it was correctly ruled a double. The umps decided to get together anyway and replay it just to make sure. After looking at replay they overturned it and ruled it a home run, which tied the game at 2-2. Unreal. The replays clearly showed the ball hit at least a foot below the top of the wall and somehow they overturned it! Once again they are lucky this wasn't a playoff game.

And the really wild thing about this call was that the Giants had already put a pinch runner on base for Molina, Emmanuel Burriss, who replaced Molina before replay was considered. The umps then insisted that Burriss was 'used up' for the game and that Molina was out of the game(for the pinch runner). All that because it took them too long to look at the replay.

http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080927&content_id=3557322&vkey=news_sf&fext=.jsp&c_id=sf

Danny Serafini
09-27-2008, 04:02 PM
Instant replay is looking like a huge failure at this point. As bad as the missed Votto homer call was on Tuesday, it doesn't come close to the awful call tonight in San Francisco. With the Dodgers winning 2-0 in the 6th inning, Benji Molina hit a flyball to deep right field. The ball hit at least a foot below the top of the wall and it was correctly ruled a double. The umps decided to get together anyway and replay it just to make sure. After looking at replay they overturned it and ruled it a home run, which tied the game at 2-2. Unreal. The replays clearly showed the ball hit at least a foot below the top of the wall and somehow they overturned it! Once again they are lucky this wasn't a playoff game.

Afraid you're wrong on this one. From the link in mbgrayson's post:


We took a look and the ball clearly hit the green part of the wall, which is part of the ground rules that a ball hitting any part of the green thing [is] a home run

Replay got it right.

OnBaseMachine
09-27-2008, 04:13 PM
Afraid you're wrong on this one. From the link in mbgrayson's post:



Replay got it right.

The replays I saw shows the ball clearly hitting the brick wall. Even Jon Miller, who is a Giants announcer, commented that he thought the ball hit the brick wall. I just don't see how they found any evidence whatsoever to overturn the original call and rule it a homer. I do admit after seeing the play again, it was closer than I thought. When I first saw the replay it appeared the ball hit a foot below the green stuff but it's much closer than that.

kaldaniels
09-27-2008, 04:16 PM
Said it in the game thread.....should have pasted it here......The human element of officials is something that does not appeal to me.
Bad balls and strikes calls from pitch to pitch....forget inning.....it's pitch to pitch. What is PI in football? Sometimes it is and sometimes it is not.....and then the phantom calls or non-calls in basketball.

The human element is the players.....not officials making bad calls. Only the players should determine the outcome...not an official/umpire/ref.

What do you suggest to do about pass interference in football then? To me, home run calls and pass interference are apples and oranges. Just wondering what your take is.

kaldaniels
09-27-2008, 04:18 PM
The replays I saw shows the ball clearly hitting the brick wall. Even Jon Miller, who is a Giants announcer, commented that he thought the ball hit the brick wall. I just don't see how they found any evidence whatsoever to overturn the original call and rule it a homer. I do admit after seeing the play again, it was closer than I thought. When I first saw the replay it appeared the ball hit a foot below the green stuff but it's much closer than that.

I think they found green paint on the ball as well...that's some pretty good circumstantial evidence.