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klw
06-13-2008, 04:05 PM
1995 National League Most Valuable Player Award



1st Max | Season Results
Rk Name Team Place Points Points Share| AB H HR BA OPS SB| W-L IP ERA WHIP SO SV
+--+----------------+----+-----+------+------+-----+-----+---+--+-----+-----+---+------+---+-----+-----+---+--+
1 Barry Larkin CIN 11 281 392 0.72 | 496 158 15 .319 .886 51|
2 Dante Bichette COL 6 251 392 0.64 | 579 197 40 .340 .984 13|
3 Greg Maddux ATL 7 249 392 0.64 | 72 11 0 .153 .368 0| 19-2 210 1.63 0.81 181
4 Mike Piazza LAD 3 214 392 0.55 | 434 150 32 .346 1.006 1|
5 Eric Karros LAD 0 135 392 0.34 | 551 164 32 .298 .904 4|
6 Reggie Sanders CIN 0 120 392 0.31 | 484 148 28 .306 .976 36|
7 Larry Walker COL 0 88 392 0.22 | 494 151 36 .306 .988 16|
8 Sammy Sosa CHC 0 81 392 0.21 | 564 151 36 .268 .840 34|
9 Tony Gwynn SDP 0 72 392 0.18 | 535 197 9 .368 .888 17|
10 Craig Biggio HOU 0 58 392 0.15 | 553 167 22 .302 .889 33|
11 Ron Gant CIN 1 31 392 0.08 | 410 113 29 .276 .940 23|
12 Barry Bonds SFG 0 21 392 0.05 | 506 149 33 .294 1.008 31|
13 Mark Grace CHC 0 14 392 0.04 | 552 180 16 .326 .911 6|
14 Derek Bell HOU 0 12 392 0.03 | 452 151 8 .334 .827 27|
15 Jeff Bagwell HOU 0 5 392 0.01 | 448 130 21 .290 .895 12|
16 Andres Galarraga COL 0 4 392 0.01 | 554 155 31 .280 .842 12|
16 Charlie Hayes PHI 0 4 392 0.01 | 529 146 11 .276 .746 5|
18 Vinny Castilla COL 0 3 392 0.01 | 527 163 32 .309 .911 2|
18 Chipper Jones ATL 0 3 392 0.01 | 524 139 23 .265 .803 8|
20 Fred McGriff ATL 0 2 392 0.01 | 528 148 27 .280 .850 3|
20 Pete Schourek CIN 0 2 392 0.01 | 59 13 0 .220 .474 0| 18-7 190 3.22 1.07 160
22 Jeff Conine FLA 0 1 392 0.00 | 483 146 25 .302 .899 2|
22 Tom Henke STL 0 1 392 0.00 | 1 0 0 .000 .000 0| 1-1 54 1.82 1.10 48 36

Here are the results from the 1995 voting. I remember at the time there was discussion that Larkin won due to locker room presence, leadership etc. I am curious to see if people could construct statistical, sabermetric arguments either for or against his winning the MVP that year. I though people's approaches on this would be interesting to see.

Will M
06-13-2008, 04:12 PM
1995 National League Most Valuable Player Award



1st Max | Season Results
Rk Name Team Place Points Points Share| AB H HR BA OPS SB| W-L IP ERA WHIP SO SV
+--+----------------+----+-----+------+------+-----+-----+---+--+-----+-----+---+------+---+-----+-----+---+--+
1 Barry Larkin CIN 11 281 392 0.72 | 496 158 15 .319 .886 51|
2 Dante Bichette COL 6 251 392 0.64 | 579 197 40 .340 .984 13|
3 Greg Maddux ATL 7 249 392 0.64 | 72 11 0 .153 .368 0| 19-2 210 1.63 0.81 181
4 Mike Piazza LAD 3 214 392 0.55 | 434 150 32 .346 1.006 1|
5 Eric Karros LAD 0 135 392 0.34 | 551 164 32 .298 .904 4|
6 Reggie Sanders CIN 0 120 392 0.31 | 484 148 28 .306 .976 36|
7 Larry Walker COL 0 88 392 0.22 | 494 151 36 .306 .988 16|
8 Sammy Sosa CHC 0 81 392 0.21 | 564 151 36 .268 .840 34|
9 Tony Gwynn SDP 0 72 392 0.18 | 535 197 9 .368 .888 17|
10 Craig Biggio HOU 0 58 392 0.15 | 553 167 22 .302 .889 33|
11 Ron Gant CIN 1 31 392 0.08 | 410 113 29 .276 .940 23|
12 Barry Bonds SFG 0 21 392 0.05 | 506 149 33 .294 1.008 31|
13 Mark Grace CHC 0 14 392 0.04 | 552 180 16 .326 .911 6|
14 Derek Bell HOU 0 12 392 0.03 | 452 151 8 .334 .827 27|
15 Jeff Bagwell HOU 0 5 392 0.01 | 448 130 21 .290 .895 12|
16 Andres Galarraga COL 0 4 392 0.01 | 554 155 31 .280 .842 12|
16 Charlie Hayes PHI 0 4 392 0.01 | 529 146 11 .276 .746 5|
18 Vinny Castilla COL 0 3 392 0.01 | 527 163 32 .309 .911 2|
18 Chipper Jones ATL 0 3 392 0.01 | 524 139 23 .265 .803 8|
20 Fred McGriff ATL 0 2 392 0.01 | 528 148 27 .280 .850 3|
20 Pete Schourek CIN 0 2 392 0.01 | 59 13 0 .220 .474 0| 18-7 190 3.22 1.07 160
22 Jeff Conine FLA 0 1 392 0.00 | 483 146 25 .302 .899 2|
22 Tom Henke STL 0 1 392 0.00 | 1 0 0 .000 .000 0| 1-1 54 1.82 1.10 48 36

Here are the results from the 1995 voting. I remember at the time there was discussion that Larkin won due to locker room presence, leadership etc. I am curious to see if people could construct statistical, sabermetric arguments either for or against his winning the MVP that year. I though people's approaches on this would be interesting to see.

ok here goes:

1. OPS for position significantly higher than averge - likely 150 pts above

2. gold glove caliber defense

3. 51 stolen bases

bucksfan2
06-13-2008, 04:15 PM
Wasn't his 96 year better than 95?

Has anyone stolen 51 bases recently?

Chip R
06-13-2008, 04:15 PM
Good question.

I think that Barry got votes because he put up those stats and was clearly the best player on the team that won a division championship. Bichette put up his stats in the thin (pre-humidor) air of Denver and they only won the wild card.

redsrule2500
06-13-2008, 04:16 PM
I think Reggie Sanders had a stronger case for MVP honestly...

VR
06-13-2008, 04:17 PM
He 'out-OPSed' the third place finisher by 500 points. Case closed. :beerme:

Cyclone792
06-13-2008, 04:20 PM
Wasn't his 96 year better than 95?

Has anyone stolen 51 bases recently?

Larkin's '95 and '96 seasons are very close and could go either way. They were his two greatest seasons though, and if you compare those seasons amongst all-time great seasons by a shortstop, he's pretty far up the list with '95 and '96.

IIRC, Bonds led the NL in win shares in 1995. Piazza and Larkin were up there too, though. Of course, Larkin was playing gold glove caliber defense at shortstop whereas Bonds was a left fielder and Piazza was a subpar defensive catcher.

Larkin did have two "other stats" excluded from OPS that were very key for him as well:

1) 51 stolen bases and only five caught steals all season, good for a 91 percent success rate
2) Only 6 GDPs all season

Bill James has called Larkin one of the most complete players in baseball history. In 1995 and 1996, Larkin was at his peak of being one of the most complete players in baseball history.

FWIW, the average NL SS did only hit .256/.326/.370/.695 in 1995 too.

*BaseClogger*
06-13-2008, 04:21 PM
Help me out guys because I was only five years old, but why didn't Piazza win it? He was a better hitter at CATCHER. Was his defense that bad? Did his team finish poorly (:rolleyes: IMO)?

Big Klu
06-13-2008, 04:24 PM
Wasn't his 96 year better than 95?

Has anyone stolen 51 bases recently?

I also thought his '96 season was even better than '95.

Deion Sanders stole 56 bases for the Reds in 1997.

Cyclone792
06-13-2008, 04:27 PM
Help me out guys because I was only five years old, but why didn't Piazza win it? He was a better hitter at CATCHER. Was his defense that bad? Did his team finish poorly (:rolleyes: IMO)?

One likely reason was simply playing time. Larkin played in 131 games and tallied 567 plate appearances whereas Piazza only played in 112 games with 475 plate appearances.

The 1995 season was strike-shortened (season started late), but the schedule still was about 144 games. Piazza missed nearly one-fourth of his team's games.

klw
06-13-2008, 04:33 PM
for comparison

1996 National League Most Valuable Player Award



1st Max | Season Results
Rk Name Team Place Points Points Share| AB H HR BA OPS SB| W-L IP ERA WHIP SO SV
+--+----------------+----+-----+------+------+-----+-----+---+--+-----+-----+---+------+---+-----+-----+---+--+
1 Ken Caminiti SDP 28 392 392 1.00 | 546 178 40 .326 1.029 11|
2 Mike Piazza LAD 0 237 392 0.60 | 547 184 36 .336 .985 0|
3 Ellis Burks COL 0 186 392 0.47 | 613 211 40 .344 1.047 32|
4 Chipper Jones ATL 0 158 392 0.40 | 598 185 30 .309 .923 14|
5 Barry Bonds SFG 0 132 392 0.34 | 517 159 42 .308 1.076 40|
6 Andres Galarraga COL 0 112 392 0.29 | 626 190 47 .304 .958 18|
6 Gary Sheffield FLA 0 112 392 0.29 | 519 163 42 .314 1.089 16|
8 Brian Jordan STL 0 69 392 0.18 | 513 159 17 .310 .832 22|
9 Jeff Bagwell HOU 0 59 392 0.15 | 568 179 31 .315 1.021 21|
10 Steve Finley SDP 0 38 392 0.10 | 655 195 30 .298 .885 22|
11 John Smoltz ATL 0 33 392 0.08 | 78 17 1 .218 .548 0| 24-8 254 2.94 1.00 276
12 Barry Larkin CIN 0 29 392 0.07 | 517 154 33 .298 .977 36|
13 Marquis Grissom ATL 0 23 392 0.06 | 671 207 23 .308 .838 28|
14 Bernard Gilkey NYM 0 13 392 0.03 | 571 181 30 .317 .955 17|
15 Sammy Sosa CHC 0 12 392 0.03 | 498 136 40 .273 .887 18|
16 Eric Karros LAD 0 10 392 0.03 | 608 158 34 .260 .795 8|
17 Henry Rodriguez MON 0 9 392 0.02 | 532 147 36 .276 .887 2|
18 Todd Hundley NYM 0 7 392 0.02 | 540 140 41 .259 .906 1|
18 Lance Johnson NYM 0 7 392 0.02 | 682 227 9 .333 .841 50|
20 Dante Bichette COL 0 6 392 0.02 | 633 198 31 .313 .890 31|
21 Todd Worrell LAD 0 3 392 0.01 | | 4-6 65 3.03 1.30 66 44
22 Kevin Brown FLA 0 2 392 0.01 | 75 9 0 .120 .318 0| 17-11 233 1.89 0.94 159
22 Trevor Hoffman SDP 0 2 392 0.01 | 8 0 0 .000 .000 0| 9-5 88 2.25 0.92 111 42
24 Moises Alou MON 0 1 392 0.00 | 540 152 21 .281 .796 9|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*BaseClogger*
06-13-2008, 04:36 PM
One likely reason was simply playing time. Larkin played in 131 games and tallied 567 plate appearances whereas Piazza only played in 112 games with 475 plate appearances.

The 1995 season was strike-shortened (season started late), but the schedule still was about 144 games. Piazza missed nearly one-fourth of his team's games.

Yeah, upon further examination his walk rate was much lower in 1995 (every 12.2 PA) than his career norm (every 10.2 PA) and only AB were listed in this thread. However, Piazza had a higher OBP and outslugged Larkin by more than 100 points. The difference in OPS makes up for the defense and base running IMO, so it really comes down to the positional difference and whether or not that makes up for Piazza's less playing time...

fearofpopvol1
06-13-2008, 04:39 PM
1995 National League Most Valuable Player Award



1st Max | Season Results
Rk Name Team Place Points Points Share| AB H HR BA OPS SB| W-L IP ERA WHIP SO SV
+--+----------------+----+-----+------+------+-----+-----+---+--+-----+-----+---+------+---+-----+-----+---+--+
1 Barry Larkin CIN 11 281 392 0.72 | 496 158 15 .319 .886 51|
2 Dante Bichette COL 6 251 392 0.64 | 579 197 40 .340 .984 13|
3 Greg Maddux ATL 7 249 392 0.64 | 72 11 0 .153 .368 0| 19-2 210 1.63 0.81 181
4 Mike Piazza LAD 3 214 392 0.55 | 434 150 32 .346 1.006 1|
5 Eric Karros LAD 0 135 392 0.34 | 551 164 32 .298 .904 4|
6 Reggie Sanders CIN 0 120 392 0.31 | 484 148 28 .306 .976 36|
7 Larry Walker COL 0 88 392 0.22 | 494 151 36 .306 .988 16|
8 Sammy Sosa CHC 0 81 392 0.21 | 564 151 36 .268 .840 34|
9 Tony Gwynn SDP 0 72 392 0.18 | 535 197 9 .368 .888 17|
10 Craig Biggio HOU 0 58 392 0.15 | 553 167 22 .302 .889 33|
11 Ron Gant CIN 1 31 392 0.08 | 410 113 29 .276 .940 23|
12 Barry Bonds SFG 0 21 392 0.05 | 506 149 33 .294 1.008 31|
13 Mark Grace CHC 0 14 392 0.04 | 552 180 16 .326 .911 6|
14 Derek Bell HOU 0 12 392 0.03 | 452 151 8 .334 .827 27|
15 Jeff Bagwell HOU 0 5 392 0.01 | 448 130 21 .290 .895 12|
16 Andres Galarraga COL 0 4 392 0.01 | 554 155 31 .280 .842 12|
16 Charlie Hayes PHI 0 4 392 0.01 | 529 146 11 .276 .746 5|
18 Vinny Castilla COL 0 3 392 0.01 | 527 163 32 .309 .911 2|
18 Chipper Jones ATL 0 3 392 0.01 | 524 139 23 .265 .803 8|
20 Fred McGriff ATL 0 2 392 0.01 | 528 148 27 .280 .850 3|
20 Pete Schourek CIN 0 2 392 0.01 | 59 13 0 .220 .474 0| 18-7 190 3.22 1.07 160
22 Jeff Conine FLA 0 1 392 0.00 | 483 146 25 .302 .899 2|
22 Tom Henke STL 0 1 392 0.00 | 1 0 0 .000 .000 0| 1-1 54 1.82 1.10 48 36

Here are the results from the 1995 voting. I remember at the time there was discussion that Larkin won due to locker room presence, leadership etc. I am curious to see if people could construct statistical, sabermetric arguments either for or against his winning the MVP that year. I though people's approaches on this would be interesting to see.

How Maddux didn't win it is beyond me. Those numbers are flat out dominant in every sense of the word. As great as Larkin's season was (especially relative to his position), Maddux had the more impressive season IMO.

westofyou
06-13-2008, 04:44 PM
best thing about 95 was sweeping the Dodgers in the 1st round, I was camping with a Dodger fan in Sequoia, listening to it on the radio.


SEASON
1995
RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
OPS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

TOTAL AVERAGE DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE RC/G OPS
1 Edgar Martinez .491 1.300 .809 6.33 .276
2 Albert Belle .399 1.150 .751 4.22 .315
3 Barry Bonds .395 1.156 .761 3.86 .208
4 John Valentin .390 1.016 .625 4.12 .231
5 Barry Larkin .382 1.014 .632 4.09 .191
6 Frank Thomas .375 1.238 .863 3.84 .193
7 Mike Piazza .367 1.034 .667 4.80 .274
8 Jim Thome .360 1.106 .746 4.29 .211
9 Tim Salmon .344 1.112 .769 4.45 .216
10 Chuck Knoblauch .307 .964 .657 3.36 .198

alexad
06-13-2008, 04:48 PM
How Maddux didn't win it is beyond me. Those numbers are flat out dominant in every sense of the word. As great as Larkin's season was (especially relative to his position), Maddux had the more impressive season IMO.


Maddux won the Cy didn't he. I thought the year Barry hit 30 homeruns was an MVP year.

What about Pete Schourek that year. He had a great year also.18-7 was a great season.

I did not realize Reggie finished 6th that year. Ron Gant was 11th. What a team that was.....

Sometimes when you have two good players like that they split the votes. Larry Walker actually stole votes from Bichette costing him the MVP.

ON another note:

I think a pitcher should have the Cy and the fielders/batters should have the MVP. Or name it something different and then also have the MVP, because yes a pitcher can be the MVP of your team.

I of course always wondered how Hernandez of Detroit won the MVP and Cy in 84?? I do not believe a relief pitcher should be the MVP of a team.

Patrick Bateman
06-13-2008, 05:04 PM
Did Charlie Hayes really get a vote?

cincinnati chili
06-13-2008, 05:11 PM
Help me out guys because I was only five years old, but why didn't Piazza win it? He was a better hitter at CATCHER. Was his defense that bad? Did his team finish poorly (:rolleyes: IMO)?

He would have been my pick that year. But the voters have been much MORE wrong in other years. Larkin deserved it a lot more that year than Rollins did last year.

fearofpopvol1
06-13-2008, 05:12 PM
Maddux won the Cy didn't he. I thought the year Barry hit 30 homeruns was an MVP year.

What about Pete Schourek that year. He had a great year also.18-7 was a great season.

I did not realize Reggie finished 6th that year. Ron Gant was 11th. What a team that was.....

Sometimes when you have two good players like that they split the votes. Larry Walker actually stole votes from Bichette costing him the MVP.

ON another note:

I think a pitcher should have the Cy and the fielders/batters should have the MVP. Or name it something different and then also have the MVP, because yes a pitcher can be the MVP of your team.

I of course always wondered how Hernandez of Detroit won the MVP and Cy in 84?? I do not believe a relief pitcher should be the MVP of a team.

Yeah, he did. But still, I mean pitchers can be considered for the MVP and when you put up numbers like Maddux's, you should be the MVP.

RedsManRick
06-13-2008, 05:35 PM
The pitcher's for MVP thing is almost entirely due to the lack of a definitive position player's only award. It would be nice to see MLB really take the reins on the award process and create a structure which doesn't cause such confusion -- not that I have much faith in their ability to do so.

RedsManRick
06-13-2008, 05:47 PM
The 1996 award voting is even more interesting to me. I think it's pretty clear that Larkin was a more productive player in '96, but then you look at the list of guys who finished above him:

1. Ken Caminiti: Steroid Enhanced
2. Mike Piazza
3. Ellis Burks: Coors Enhanced
4. Chipper Jones
5. Barry Bonds
6. Andres Galarraga: Coors Enhanced
6. Gary Sheffield
8. Brian Jordan
9. Jeff Bagwell
10. Steve Finley
11. John Smoltz

You've got 3 guys who had significant enhancers to their performance, without question. On a flat comparison, Larkin outproduced Finley and Jordan, and arguably Chipper. If you bring defensive value and/or position adjustment for offense in the picture, and he clearly beats Chipper. Throw out Smoltz just for the sake of apples to apples. That leaves you Piazza (poor defender), Bonds (LF, Roids?), Sheffield (RF, Roids?), and Bagwell (1B) in the discussion.

I probably would've gone Bonds, Larkin, Sheffield, Bagwell, Piazza. Larkin just didn't get enough appreciation for providing that offense while also being a GG SS.

westofyou
06-13-2008, 05:53 PM
Pitchers win MVP awards when pitching dominates the games, McLain or Gibby... Ed Walsh sort of seasons when pitching is the most important arrow in your quiver should get the pitcher a MVP, but when runs are plentiful their worth even when they are otherworldy loses some of its luster.

For voters it's hard to turn you back on the everyday player with 40 Knocks 125 RBI's and 150 games. Now when they have a .298 BA and 20 HR's and 92 RBI's it's a whole lot easier.

RedsManRick
06-13-2008, 06:07 PM
Pitchers win MVP awards when pitching dominates the games, McLain or Gibby... Ed Walsh sort of seasons when pitching is the most important arrow in your quiver should get the pitcher a MVP, but when runs are plentiful their worth even when they are otherworldy loses some of its luster.

For voters it's hard to turn you back on the everyday player with 40 Knocks 125 RBI's and 150 games. Now when they have a .298 BA and 20 HR's and 92 RBI's it's a whole lot easier.

One could argue that the more runs scored across the league, the more important/impressive the elite pitchers are. Greg Maddux's '94 and '95 seasons (among others), are the more impressive. I love Barry, but I think it's hard to argue that he was more valuable than Maddux in '95.

westofyou
06-13-2008, 06:19 PM
One could argue that the more runs scored across the league, the more important/impressive the elite pitchers are. Greg Maddux's '94 and '95 seasons (among others), are the more impressive. I love Barry, but I think it's hard to argue that he was more valuable than Maddux in '95.

Sure... and it's a valid argument.

My point is that the gaudy numbers of the many create noise that make that sort of decision harder to make.

But mostly because they see more of his feats daily throughout the season (hence relief pitchers garnering more MVP support when they became bigger players about 30 years ago) and most of all because the world loves the Babe more than the Big Train.

cincinnati chili
06-13-2008, 07:39 PM
The 1996 award voting is even more interesting to me. I think it's pretty clear that Larkin was a more productive player in '96, but then you look at the list of guys who finished above him:

1. Ken Caminiti: Steroid Enhanced
2. Mike Piazza
3. Ellis Burks: Coors Enhanced
4. Chipper Jones
5. Barry Bonds
6. Andres Galarraga: Coors Enhanced
6. Gary Sheffield
8. Brian Jordan
9. Jeff Bagwell
10. Steve Finley
11. John Smoltz

You've got 3 guys who had significant enhancers to their performance, without question. On a flat comparison, Larkin outproduced Finley and Jordan, and arguably Chipper. If you bring defensive value and/or position adjustment for offense in the picture, and he clearly beats Chipper. Throw out Smoltz just for the sake of apples to apples. That leaves you Piazza (poor defender), Bonds (LF, Roids?), Sheffield (RF, Roids?), and Bagwell (1B) in the discussion.

I probably would've gone Bonds, Larkin, Sheffield, Bagwell, Piazza. Larkin just didn't get enough appreciation for providing that offense while also being a GG SS.

Burks may have deserved to be at least where he finished, notiwithstanding the Coors factor. He OPS'ed over .900 on the road. Not as high as the guys you mentioned - who were in the 1.000 range - but very high.

Excellent road numbers plus ungodly home numbers likely equal MVP:

Ellis Burks appeared in 81 games at home, had 331 at-bats, drove in 79 runs, scored 96 times, had 129 hits (31 doubles / 6 triples / 23 home runs), walked 30 times (2 intentional), struck out 62 times, was hit by a pitcher 3 times, sacrificed 3 times (1 hits & 2 flies), stole 5 bases, was caught stealing 4 times, ground into 5 double plays, and finished at home with a .389 batting average, .442 on base percentage and .728 slugging average?

On the road, Ellis Burks appeared in 75 games, had 282 at-bats, drove in 49 runs, scored 46 times, had 82 hits (14 doubles / 2 triples / 17 home runs), walked 31 times (0 intentional), struck out 52 times, was hit by a pitcher 3 times, sacrificed 2 times (2 hits & 0 flies), stole 5 bases, was caught stealing 4 times, ground into 5 double plays, and finished at home with a .290 batting average, .367 on base percentage and .535 slugging average

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/hittinglogs.php?p=burksel01&y=1996