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View Full Version : Walt wants to clean house!!



redhawk61
06-15-2008, 12:24 PM
New Reds GM Walt Jocketty has told counterparts he wants to clean house, notably of free-agent-to-be outfielders Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn, plus Ryan Freel and - in the right deal -starter Bronson Arroyo.

www.nypost.com/seven/06152008/sports/yankees/yankees_monitor_c_c__sweepstakes_115507.htm

don't know how much truth there is to it, but if it is , it should be an exciting next 6 weeks.

mole44
06-15-2008, 12:47 PM
How about Dunn and Arroyo to the Cubs for Jim Edmonds? Thats what I picture when I hear "clean house" with this Reds regime. More like a scary six weeks if you ask me.

Blue
06-15-2008, 01:04 PM
Stuff like this makes me really, really nervous. It may be necessary, but it makes me nervous.

dmoe
06-15-2008, 01:49 PM
Stuff like this makes me really, really nervous. It may be necessary, but it makes me nervous.

my sentiments exactly...how clean of a house are we talking here, Walt?

Trackman20
06-15-2008, 02:39 PM
Well..here is to hoping that "cleaning house" means dealing Homer Bailey while he still has a little bit of value left in him!

Blue
06-15-2008, 02:44 PM
People are being awfully hard on the kid.

I hope cleaning house means cleaning out the manager, hitting coach, and pitching coach. That's a guaranteed improvement.

Trackman20
06-15-2008, 02:46 PM
How can we not be hard on the kid?

Have you not been watching him pitch??!?!?

captainmorgan07
06-15-2008, 02:50 PM
Im a big Jr. and Dunn fan but in the last seven years of losing who are the only two that have been around for almost all of um. You guessed it Dunn and Griffey. Time to move on give the team to Bruce, Phillips, Votto, Volquez. On homer he wasn't ready for his call up but the reds had to try something.

BEETTLEBUG
06-15-2008, 02:51 PM
Leave Affedlt in game a few more innings stretch him out and put Bailey in pen.

Blue
06-15-2008, 02:54 PM
How can we not be hard on the kid?

Have you not been watching him pitch??!?!?

I feel sorry for him because he has taken a lot of garbage in the local media, because he takes everything hard, and because he has been tinkered with by Dick Pole. Its always sad when someone is tinkered by Dick Pole.

I want him to stay in Cincinnati, because he is obviously talented, and needs to be in a place where someone in the front office can ascertain exactly what kind of instruction he is not getting, and make sure he gets it.

Blue
06-15-2008, 02:55 PM
Leave Affedlt in game a few more innings stretch him out and put Bailey in pen.

I would be in favor of this.

BEETTLEBUG
06-15-2008, 03:13 PM
Well maybe he is not a starter after all.

Shawn_RedsFan
06-15-2008, 03:24 PM
I still have alot of faith in Homer and I'm suprised everyone one is giving up on him so easily, but I am a little confused as to why he only throwing 90 this year, when he was throwing 95 last year??

foxfire123
06-15-2008, 03:28 PM
Well..here is to hoping that "cleaning house" means dealing Homer Bailey while he still has a little bit of value left in him!

I'm more and more thinking this kid is one of those Minor League Wonders who tears it up down there, but can't actually cut it in the Majors.

Shawn_RedsFan
06-15-2008, 03:34 PM
I'm more and more thinking this kid is one of those Minor League Wonders who tears it up down there, but can't actually cut it in the Majors.

I don't agree with that assumption either because he had some good starts in his 9 game stint with the reds last year, but in those 9 starts he only gave up 3 hr's, I am still confused why his velocity is down.

foxfire123
06-15-2008, 03:45 PM
I'm hoping he proves me wrong Shawn_RF, actually *praying* that, but seriously, he ain't looking good lately.... Whether it's a mind thing or health or whatever, he needs to figure it out.

And I agree we need a pitching coach who is capable of helping him figure it out.

Shawn_RedsFan
06-15-2008, 03:48 PM
Yea the thing that has me really worried this year are his numbers in AAA.

Maldez
06-15-2008, 03:55 PM
Homer's ERA is up to 8.76. Numbers don't lie.

Crowther
06-15-2008, 03:59 PM
If Walt feels the need to clean house then I think we should have confidence it what he will do. Would you rather have the Reds last seven years or the Cardinals last thirteen? The man puts a contender on the field virtually every year. Of course, I believe, LaRussa had a lot to do with how he used the tools Jocketty gave him. So maybe "cleaning house"covers the whole nine yards. But I ssure don't want to roll out another seven years like we have just been through.

Trackman20
06-15-2008, 04:02 PM
So his ERA is about double what his AAA #'s are.

Jr's Boy
06-15-2008, 04:54 PM
Castellini was in booth with Marty and Cowboy and said that is untrue about this ''clean house'' talk and said Jockety has said nothing of the sort.Espn hyperbole.Though JR is a goner.

Hondo
06-15-2008, 04:56 PM
Castellini was in booth with Marty and Cowboy and said that is untrue about this ''clean house'' talk and said Jockety has said nothing of the sort.Espn hyperbole.Though JR is a goner.

Thats good! I want to compete and contend! ADD, not subtract... unless you're subtracting Patterson, Ross, Valentin, Phillips, Bako, etc...

FlyerFanatic
06-15-2008, 05:00 PM
Thats good! I want to compete and contend! ADD, not subtract... unless you're subtracting Patterson, Ross, Valentin, Phillips, Bako, etc...

what exactly are we going to add? we have no money to add anything...i dont see even if we bring up minor league guys how it will help us contend this year. we need to just firesale a bunch and look towards the future.

redsfanmia
06-15-2008, 05:15 PM
Dump every vet with any value and then just flat out go young.

redhawk61
06-15-2008, 05:18 PM
Thats good! I want to compete and contend! ADD, not subtract... unless you're subtracting Patterson, Ross, Valentin, Phillips, Bako, etc...

you have to give up something to get something like the Volquez deal....though we still wouldn't be giving up anything with Griff and Dunn...People some how think other teams would want our garbage, plus giving us something to help us win for them. PEOPLE WE ARE 12.5 GAMES BACK!!! Its over, waiting too long to make a change is what gets teams into trouble. Get what you can for Dunn and Griff, and build around Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Burton, Cueto, Volquez, Harang, Cordero, Kepp

Hondo
06-15-2008, 05:21 PM
you have to give up something to get something like the Volquez deal....though we still wouldn't be giving up anything with Griff and Dunn...People some how think other teams would want our garbage, plus giving us something to help us win for them. PEOPLE WE ARE 12.5 GAMES BACK!!! Its over, waiting too long to make a change is what gets teams into trouble. Get what you can for Dunn and Griff, and build around Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Burton, Cueto, Volquez, Harang, Cordero, Kepp


I didn't say Trade them, DFA them...

Blue
06-15-2008, 05:21 PM
This is the worst offense it baseball without Dunn. He's the best offensive player on the team and its not even close. I know you're deeply committed to denying that, and are invested in him not being good, but you're wrong.

GoReds33
06-15-2008, 05:35 PM
I would be in favor of this.Me too. I would be interested in seeing if Bailey could throw hard out of the bullpen. Maybe he could pitch somewhere around the 96 that he usto.

757690
06-15-2008, 05:50 PM
This is the worst offense it baseball without Dunn. He's the best offensive player on the team and its not even close. I know you're deeply committed to denying that, and are invested in him not being good, but you're wrong.

This is one of the worst offenses with Dunn. Last place with him, can't do worse without him.

I think this is similar to the Phillies trading Bobby Abreu. He was the team's most productive hitter at the time, but he cost too much, and didn't fit into the offense well. They actually started to play much better once they traded him, even though they got next to nothing for him.

Dunn and Abreu are great players, but I don't want a team of great players, I want a great team. Dumping Dunn will not necessarily make the Reds a better team, but if Jocketty has a plan than includes replacing Dunn with a player that better fits his idea of a winning team, than I am all for that.

Shawn_RedsFan
06-15-2008, 06:00 PM
What are the chances that Homer makes another start? I would like to see him make at least one more start but Daryl is knocking on the door in AAA.

bgwilly31
06-15-2008, 07:00 PM
I'm more and more thinking this kid is one of those Minor League Wonders who tears it up down there, but can't actually cut it in the Majors.

the problem with that is he really didnt tear anything up in the minors either.:/

ChatterRed
06-15-2008, 07:11 PM
I feel sorry for him because he has taken a lot of garbage in the local media, because he takes everything hard, and because he has been tinkered with by Dick Pole. Its always sad when someone is tinkered by Dick Pole.

I want him to stay in Cincinnati, because he is obviously talented, and needs to be in a place where someone in the front office can ascertain exactly what kind of instruction he is not getting, and make sure he gets it.

This is the biggest bunch of BS I've read on this board. ALL WE'VE HEARD IS HOW HOMER WON'T TAKE INSTRUCTION FROM THE PITCHING COACHES, SO HOW IN THE YOU KNOW WHAT HAS ANY PITCHING COACH SCREWED HOMER UP????????? THAT IS SUCH A LOAD OF BALONEY, AND YOU KNOW IT. HOMER HAS SCREWED HIMSELF BECAUSE HE WON'T LISTEN TO THE PITCHING COACHES.

FACE IT. IT'S HOMER'S FAULT AND NOBODY'S ELSE'S. BLAME IT ON THE KID.

ChatterRed
06-15-2008, 07:13 PM
the problem with that is he really didnt tear anything up in the minors either.:/

Well said. You are one of the few who realizes this.

Why promote someone that isn't ready? Oh yeah, because so many fans believe the hype but can't comprehend minor league pitching stats such as Homer having an e.r.a over 6.00 in the month of May. Or basically walking as many as he strikes out.........oh yeah, but that is more than enough reason to promote him to the big leagues. :rolleyes:

Shawn_RedsFan
06-15-2008, 07:14 PM
Im trying to find something myself, but I'm looking for a video or picture comparing Homer's delivery from last year and compare it to this years'. If someone could find something it would be greatly appreciated.

ChatterRed
06-15-2008, 07:19 PM
I still have alot of faith in Homer and I'm suprised everyone one is giving up on him so easily, but I am a little confused as to why he only throwing 90 this year, when he was throwing 95 last year??

Who is giving up on him?

All I ever hear is how hard we are on this poor 21 year old kid and that he has a bright future ahead of him.

If you listen to Homer, he thinks he's already arrived as a major league pitchere and has nothing left to learn in the minor leagues.

If you listen to people in the know within the Reds Organization, they say Homer does not take instruction well, does not chart pitches, reads magazines instead, and basically thinks he has nothing left to learn and is ready now.

The truth is.......there is no reason to give up on him. He has alot of talent. He is only 21. BUT.............He obviously is stuck at a point of not making strides at this point........why is that? Is it him? Is it his attitude? Is it the organization messing with him? How could it be if he won't take instruction? The fans are pushing for his promotion...........yet he hasn't done anything to deserve it.

Frankly, we have a 21 year old pitcher with some talent that has hit a wall. Why? I don't know. Either he is overrated, or his mental approach to the game does not match his pitching talents, or he just isn't willing to improve his game from this point on.

redsfanmia
06-15-2008, 07:23 PM
This is the biggest bunch of BS I've read on this board. ALL WE'VE HEARD IS HOW HOMER WON'T TAKE INSTRUCTION FROM THE PITCHING COACHES, SO HOW IN THE YOU KNOW WHAT HAS ANY PITCHING COACH SCREWED HOMER UP????????? THAT IS SUCH A LOAD OF BALONEY, AND YOU KNOW IT. HOMER HAS SCREWED HIMSELF BECAUSE HE WON'T LISTEN TO THE PITCHING COACHES.

FACE IT. IT'S HOMER'S FAULT AND NOBODY'S ELSE'S. BLAME IT ON THE KID.

Are you a coach with the Reds? Do you know what is going on in the lockerroom or on the field? You dont know what Homer is like and you dont know that he wont listen to the pitching coaches.

SarasotaFan
06-15-2008, 07:23 PM
I don't agree with that assumption either because he had some good starts in his 9 game stint with the reds last year, but in those 9 starts he only gave up 3 hr's, I am still confused why his velocity is down.
so did Belisle but you probably gave up on him .....

SarasotaFan
06-15-2008, 07:24 PM
Me too. I would be interested in seeing if Bailey could throw hard out of the bullpen. Maybe he could pitch somewhere around the 96 that he usto.if you come out of the bullpen you gotta throw stirkes....

ChatterRed
06-15-2008, 07:29 PM
Are you a coach with the Reds? Do you know what is going on in the lockerroom or on the field? You dont know what Homer is like and you dont know that he wont listen to the pitching coaches.

I guess you just crawled out from under a rock. It's been well publicized that the Reds Organization is upset with Homer for not taking proper instruction in the minor leagues.

gedred69
06-15-2008, 09:08 PM
Knock on Homer was inability to consistently throw strikes. He throws more strikes now, but his velocity is down. Hmmm. I saw him pitch in ST against the Bosox in Ft. Myers, and his mix of 93-94 mph FB with his off-speed pitch had the Sox out in front or way late, to the point Sox fans were asking me if he really threw that hard, or was he keeping them off-balance? He's screwed up now, and he may or may not ever get out of the funk. I hope he doesn't turn out to be another Tomko. (He too was considered difficult to coach as well by the way).

redsfan1966
06-15-2008, 10:14 PM
first of all---no way Dusty gets bagged---too much money involved, Pole and Jacoby however could be fall guys for this travesty. As far as players, good, blow em out of here---we are last with Dunn, Griffey, Encarnacion, etc., we can be last without em.
I did find the Castellini impromtu visit in the radio booth very interesting...seemed like he wanted to squash the NY Post rumors, but kind of ran out of gas and Marty tried to steer him in other directions (HOF dinner, KGJ nite)...

Old NDN
06-15-2008, 10:17 PM
I think Homer has brought some of this on himself with his "reported" attitude. However, he has been matched up against Hamels and Beckett in his last 2 starts, and two of MLB's top teams. Which just adds to the pressure to perform. I'm not making excuses for him. He still has to do the job if he is gonna stay up. Just saying, he's had some tough teams to go against.

SarasotaFan
06-15-2008, 10:23 PM
I think Homer has brought some of this on himself with his "reported" attitude. However, he has been matched up against Hamels and Beckett in his last 2 starts, and two of MLB's top teams. Which just adds to the pressure to perform. I'm not making excuses for him. He still has to do the job if he is gonna stay up. Just saying, he's had some tough teams to go against.

who cares about the opposing pitcher - that's just for wins / losses. wins and losses don't mean that much - it's an ERA that i'd worry about. the guy could go 0-14 for all i care, but if his ERA was a 2.07 i wouldn't complain one bit - that's the offense's fault to not produce any runs to actually get him in line for a win. it's kinda hard when the offense has to produce at least 5 runs just to keep him in line for a no decision.

granted he has faced some tough line-ups - quite possibly the best 2 in baseball right now - but like you said, he's still gotta go out, throw strikes (first and foremost) and get the job done.

Shawn_RedsFan
06-15-2008, 11:39 PM
so did Belisle but you probably gave up on him .....


I've took alot of criticism from my buddies because I thought Belisle did an alright job as the 5th starter, he wasn't dominate but he could get big league hitters out something homer is not doing. I'm not the one giving up on anyone btw ( I've been defending Dusty when people are saying he should be fired, but wait I guess he should be fired and someone on here should take over, they shoud be able to do a better job).

_Sir_Charles_
06-16-2008, 12:10 AM
I guess you just crawled out from under a rock. It's been well publicized that the Reds Organization is upset with Homer for not taking proper instruction in the minor leagues.

Yes, that was publicized LAST year. This year, Dusty himself clearly stated that he saw the exact opposite in spring training. He was doing everything they asked of him and he was eager to learn. He went to AAA with the goal of learning a cut fastball (which is considerably slower than his normal fastball by the way) and to work on his changeup and breaking balls.

I'm not trying to defend Homer, just clear up a misconception. And if anybody here was expecting him to come in and throw lights out against the Phillies and the Red Sox...you're just kidding yourself. So far, his three starts have been against 2 first place teams and a second place team. I don't think anybody should've been expecting great things against those teams. Personally, I was pleasantly surprised by his 4 hit / 2 earned run outing against the Phillies. In the St. Louis game, he had one poor inning where Puljols & Ankiel went deep and he gave up 4 runs. So far, that's 2 mostly decent starts from a rookie including one poor inning. Today however, he just got mugged by a great team. Any mistake you make against the Sox just gets capitalized on immediately. Look at that first inning. Single, 2 stolen bases and a sac fly. That was a solid inning of pitching but they still managed to work a run out of it. A few poor starts (and I've really only seen 1 1/2 poor starts so far) and people are ready to give up on him. He's a rookie. How come nobody has been blasting Cueto here on the Sun Deck? I haven't seen anybody wanting us to trade away him. How come? After that first start of his, he went on a total suckfest tear. But they stuck with him and he's coming back to form. Homer deserves the same kind of opportunity.

Personally, I think people are quick to want to dismiss him because of his "surly" reputation with the media. Who the heck cares?!? There were lots of players who completely ignored the media because they looked at them like they were blood-sucking parasites (which many of them are). IIRC, Schmidt and Carlton were both that way with the media. I say we give him a break and let him take his lumps along the way. 90 mph or 97 mph...he's got the stuff to be VERY successful in the bigs. He's just got to be given the chance to learn HOW to be successful here. Patience...that goes for Homer, Cueto, Edinson, Joey, Jay, etc, etc, etc. They're all going to go through stretches where they're horrible. Talent usually wins out though.


~~~~~
I found that comment from Dusty I just mentioned, I thought I'd add it here for clarification. This was just prior to his spring debut this year.
~~~~~
“I think he’s in better position because his mechanics are better, allowing him to throw better strikes," Baker said. "From what I hear, he was all arms and legs last year."

There were whispers last year that Bailey wasn't very coachable. Baker hasn't seen that.

“Sometimes you need to fail to really listen," Baker said. "He’s been all ears basically, which you like in a young player. But sometimes they have to fail before they listen.”

BurgervilleBuck
06-16-2008, 03:54 AM
All I ever hear is how hard we are on this poor 21 year old kid and that he has a bright future ahead of him.

If you listen to Homer, he thinks he's already arrived as a major league pitchere and has nothing left to learn in the minor leagues.

If you listen to people in the know within the Reds Organization, they say Homer does not take instruction well, does not chart pitches, reads magazines instead, and basically thinks he has nothing left to learn and is ready now.
I've read the same things, too. Maybe a horrendous start and being booed off the field will readjust his thinking.

BurgervilleBuck
06-16-2008, 03:57 AM
I think Homer has brought some of this on himself with his "reported" attitude. However, he has been matched up against Hamels and Beckett in his last 2 starts, and two of MLB's top teams. Which just adds to the pressure to perform. I'm not making excuses for him. He still has to do the job if he is gonna stay up. Just saying, he's had some tough teams to go against.
Gee, it sure does stink that we'd expect a major league pitcher to do his job.

I don't understand why folks are so quick to coddle athletes.

bounty37h
06-16-2008, 12:45 PM
Good, clean house, this s-dump is starting to stink. I would be open to conversation about nearly every player on the roster-doesn't mean of course trade any and every one of em, but listen to what comes in on them all.

Hondo
06-16-2008, 01:29 PM
so did Belisle but you probably gave up on him .....

Belisle stuff and make up make him a viable Long man out of the Bullpen... I gave up on him as a Starter...

I am all for Homer staying in the Rotation all year long... Does anybody realize the teams he has faced and got rocked by? It is not like they are light hitting teams here... I like the idea of seeing what Homer can do the rest of the year... If he stinks it up the whole year, so be it... then atleast we know he is not the second coming...

I don't want Josh Fogg taking away start from Homer because you know 2 things... He isn't going to be any better than what Homer has shown, and he isn't going to be here next year...

Back to Belisle. Nice guy, but he doesn't have the potential that Homer has...

Stick with Homer... as painfull as his starts have been... Ride the guy and see what he does...

dmoe
06-16-2008, 02:27 PM
did any of you hear homer's post game interview yesterday? i'd say he knows that he has work to do. he admitted that he was frustrated and intimidated on the mound and openly said that he wasn't getting the job done.

sounds like someone who's able to swallow his pride and admit faults to me. he's knows he's got some growing to do...i hope he's able to do it his way.

HeatherC1212
06-16-2008, 02:41 PM
John Fay's blog today doesn't sound like there's going to be a housecleaning by Walt Jocketty.

http://beta.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3ae4babb0a-8116-4134-829f-51e0faf81f61&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

bounty37h
06-16-2008, 03:41 PM
^or maybe a cover since it "got out", so teams dont know we are desperate and willing? Clean up this mess!!! We gave up half (2) of Coco Crisps homer total for the season (4) in 2 days, just one of many, many things gone wrong!!!!!!

SarasotaFan
06-17-2008, 09:04 AM
did any of you hear homer's post game interview yesterday? i'd say he knows that he has work to do. he admitted that he was frustrated and intimidated on the mound and openly said that he wasn't getting the job done.

sounds like someone who's able to swallow his pride and admit faults to me. he's knows he's got some growing to do...i hope he's able to do it his way.
did you really think he would come out to the media and say "i threw my best, i don't see what went wrong. i dominated those guys and they hit my good stuff. i wasn't scared to throw a lot of balls and i thought i left the game in pretty good hands with the bullpen" or something along those lines ?

that's the thing about the media - you have to show / tell them you messed up or they'll keep riding you about it forever.

aerontg
06-17-2008, 09:43 AM
did any of you hear homer's post game interview yesterday? i'd say he knows that he has work to do. he admitted that he was frustrated and intimidated on the mound and openly said that he wasn't getting the job done.

sounds like someone who's able to swallow his pride and admit faults to me. he's knows he's got some growing to do...i hope he's able to do it his way.

I think it's one thing for an opposing team to face a HOF calibre pitcher, but you KNOW they are going to be hungry when facing some pitcher with attitude problems, and that also happens to me pretty mediocre. Until Homer becomes humbled and hungry himself, he's going to get this type of beating everytime. And, the media won't have to ask him how he felt out there. :D