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View Full Version : Walt names the untoucables



redhawk61
06-17-2008, 06:27 PM
and no, not the ones from the 1920's
From C. Trent's blog:

If you weren't listening to Marc Amazon on 1530 Homer, you missed an interesting interview with Walt Jocketty.

First off, Jocketty said they'd make a decision on Homer and the rotation "in the next day."

But more than that what I thought was interesting was Marc asked him about "untouchables" with th team and Jocketty listed five: Jay Bruce, Johnny Cueto, Edinson Volquez, Joey Votto and Edwin Encarnacion.

I was surprised by Encarnacion, but vey interesting."

killuminati35
06-17-2008, 06:34 PM
No Harang? No Phillips?

Although I really like Edwin, I find it odd that he is considered untouchable.

Trace's Daddy
06-17-2008, 06:35 PM
I wonder why Encarnacion is untouchable but not Brandon Phillips?

ChatterRed
06-17-2008, 06:47 PM
That might have been an off the top of his head list, but maybe he's inviting possible trade offers for a few that some teams previously would have thought were untouchable.

My untouchables?

Volquez, Cueto, Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Harang

My personal opinion is give Cueto a year of seasoning and he will be much improved next year. I also think that starting 4 is very good to serviceable if they had a decent #5.

Honestly, the problem with this team is the offense and middle relief. Beyond Burton and Cordero, I still find our bullpen scary at times.

Krawhitham
06-17-2008, 06:49 PM
Encarnacion is improving and the franchise is not (.229 VS righties).

DannyB
06-17-2008, 06:51 PM
There is really no such thing.

James B.
06-17-2008, 06:52 PM
I don't think that any player in baseball should be an untouchable. Of course you are probably not going to trade the guys on the list but if someone overwelms you with an offer that will improve the team, you would be crazy not to do it.

Griffey012
06-17-2008, 06:59 PM
As soon as we trade EdE he is going to fulfill his potential and play stellar defense...I just have a feeling its gonna have to be somewhere else and not here. I just get the notion he will never meet his potential here because of the pressure on him to perform here. A change of scenery probably works for him like it did Phillips.

Griffey012
06-17-2008, 07:00 PM
As far as for Harang, I think it would have to take a Bedard like package featured around a stud young pitcher.

FlightRick
06-17-2008, 07:12 PM
I wonder why Encarnacion is untouchable but not Brandon Phillips?

Easy: Phillips is owed a guaranteed $23 million over the next three years (with a fourth year option at $12 million), while Edwin is only arb-eligible for those three years and is unlikely to cost one-third what Phillips does in that time frame.

I'm guessing this is the same reason Harang was not listed as untouchable.

Which I don't think is a negative comment on the perceived talents of either Phillips or Harang, but more a comment on the finances of baseball. It's already been said in this thread that "for the right deal, no one is untouchable," but a team like the Reds has to let very talented players be "touchable" if said players have a slightly higher price tag than the available options. And, in the converse, slightly more protective of slightly-less-talented players who come with significantly lower price tags than available options.

It's the same dicey risk/reward, cost/benefit analysis that makes the Dunn Decision so complex and infuriatingly complicated (and not nearly the black-and-white issue so many of the sports-talk-radio-caliber harpies want it to be).


Rick


EDITED TO ADD: Remember a week or so ago when said addle-brained harpies had their man-panties in a bunch over a "Keppinger to 3B" comment that clearly indicated Encarnacion was headed back to Louisville? And how I said to simmer down and take a deep breath, because that didn't mean anything other than the fact that they'd originally wanted to ease Keppinger back into the line-up via the less-strenuous defensive position? And how I was promptly flamed for being a clueless dolt because management hates Edwin? Well: I told you so. And I accept your apology.

dougflynn23
06-17-2008, 07:42 PM
:) I still see Encarnacion in LF next year if Dunn is not resigned, and either Keppinger or a new face at 3B.

Griffey012
06-17-2008, 10:12 PM
Encarnacion reminds me a lot of Adrian Beltre...took a while to come into his own defensively but over the course of a season usually put up solid offensive stats. However, EdE has shown a lot better plate discipline then Beltre which might be a sign EdE will hit his full potential where Beltre only did for 1 contract year season.

UK Reds Fan
06-17-2008, 11:10 PM
EE is OPSing 777 and is a marginal defender at best at 3b which is more of an offensive position around the league.

Phillips is OPSing 798 and is top 2 in defenders at 2b at a position more defined by defense compared to 3b.

Reds see the $$$$ of Phillips moreso than pure talent.....same ole Reds.

757690
06-17-2008, 11:34 PM
The untouchable list is not a list of who Walt thinks are the Reds most valuable players, just the ones that that make no sense in trading. In this day and age, the players contract has as much or more to do with his trade value than his talent.
If a guy is making the major league minimum, and he is a solid everyday player, it makes no sense to trade him. It is that simple.
Anyone with a big contract is not untouchable. He could be traded for similar talent that is cheaper.
All winning organizations have this view (even the Red Sox and Yankees), and it is one reason why they are winning organizations.

nickstyle
06-18-2008, 12:12 AM
If anyone listened to the interview Jocketty did not say "These are the 5 untouchables." He was talking about Jay Bruce not being the savior because they had some others young guys like Johnny Cueto, Edinson Volquez, Joey Votto and Edwin Encarnacion and "some other guys here and more coming"

Marc Amazon then asked "Who's your core who are your untouchables?" and Jocketty said "I think I just mentioned them. Yeah, those guys would be pretty tough to move."

So he never said Encarnacion is untouchable but Phillips isn't. It just sounded like he was talking about the youngest players they had on the team and in the minors and when the follow-up came instead of giving a list he just said those guys I just mentioned would be tough to move.

Big Hurt
06-18-2008, 10:42 AM
The untouchable list is not a list of who Walt thinks are the Reds most valuable players, just the ones that that make no sense in trading. In this day and age, the players contract has as much or more to do with his trade value than his talent.
If a guy is making the major league minimum, and he is a solid everyday player, it makes no sense to trade him. It is that simple.
Anyone with a big contract is not untouchable. He could be traded for similar talent that is cheaper.
All winning organizations have this view (even the Red Sox and Yankees), and it is one reason why they are winning organizations.

I think this is where WJ is. It's about the contract and rebuilding in an economically effective and efficient way. BP and AH are our veteran studs but both are great trading chips and are somewhat expensive for us. It's the contracts that spice up the trade bait.

Trackman20
06-18-2008, 11:09 AM
I think Edwin is an important cog for the future......he has an all-star glove and an average bat, with above average potential (in my opinion).

My untouchables:

Volquez
Votto
Bruce
Cueto
Phillips
Edwin
Keppinger

CySeymour
06-18-2008, 12:04 PM
My untouchables:

Volquez
Votto
Bruce
Cueto
Phillips
Edwin
Keppinger

I like Kepp as much as the next guy, but why would you rule him untouchable?

Ghosts of 1990
06-18-2008, 12:21 PM
Dunn should be; and to be honest... why Cueto and not Bailey... Cueto's been bad at times too.

Jefferson24
06-18-2008, 12:33 PM
Dunn should be; and to be honest... why Cueto and not Bailey... Cueto's been bad at times too.

Cueto has looked a great deal more promising than Bailey. Sure Cueto has been bad at times but he has also been very good at times. I'm having a hard time thinking of a time recently that Bailey has been good. Bailey's last good outing was against the A's last year. Even then he still walked more than he struck out.

Ahhhorsepoo
06-18-2008, 12:35 PM
last night cueto should have only given up 1 run.. his defense didnt help much..

ChatterRed
06-18-2008, 12:42 PM
I think this is where WJ is. It's about the contract and rebuilding in an economically effective and efficient way. BP and AH are our veteran studs but both are great trading chips and are somewhat expensive for us. It's the contracts that spice up the trade bait.
If Harang and Phillips are too expensive for the Reds, then God have mercy on them because they will never field a competitive team if they cannot afford these type of players.

Ahhhorsepoo
06-18-2008, 02:21 PM
BPhill and Harang are too expensive.. then anyone who ever thought we would keep dunn are kidding themselves if they want to put that much into one player without having the money to spend more..

757690
06-18-2008, 02:46 PM
If Harang and Phillips are too expensive for the Reds, then God have mercy on them because they will never field a competitive team if they cannot afford these type of players.

Not being untouchable is not the same as being on the trading block. Jocketty has said nothing about wanting to get rid of Phillips and Harang, just that he might listen to offers for them.

But I agree, that if they were traded simply for money reasons, I would lose a lot of faith in this team.

Big Hurt
06-18-2008, 03:21 PM
Let me clarify. I don't think either AH or BP make too much for the Reds or other suitors. I was relaying the thought that as you are rebuilding (and anticipating loosing a good number of games) it makes more sense to put your big chips on the table with the hope that you'll get back high potential players that you'll have financial control over for a longer period. Certainly, when you are successful in baseball, your premier players expect to be paid well.

bgwilly31
06-18-2008, 06:34 PM
My should have been untouchables



JOSH HAMILTON
Jay bruce
Brandon Phillips
Aaron Harang
Cueto


The rest could have been used to gain some pitching and other things needed.

But Hamilton should have been untouchable.


Now that the reds cant score more than 2 runs a game maybe the rest of you will start to realize you also have to hit to win.

You cant count on shut-outs every flipping night.


I really hope jocketty isnt pondering trading BP for more probables.

NarrowStairs
06-19-2008, 05:56 AM
Keppinger is the best player on the team, and cheap.