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View Full Version : Why do we suck?



Jeremy Piergallini
06-19-2008, 02:16 PM
Honestly, I'm at a loss for words. What is it? Did we have too high expectations for a team that's just not good? Is it really Dusty whom many of us weren't thrilled with in the first place? Are they too young of a team right now to have consistency?

Sure, there's been some stupid contracts handed out and some bad decisions being made, but they shouldn't be playing this bad.

But seriously, watching GameCast here at work and checking ESPNews every evening when I can, I always have hope of at least a decent game or a win. I should know better by now.

I've been a Bengals fan all of my life. You would think I would be used to rooting for losing franchises. But it still stings.

Last question. Does this team even care?

durl
06-19-2008, 02:46 PM
I'm not a fan of the "do something, ANYTHING" mentality but I fear it's reached that point. There's got to be something that will serve as a tipping point. Fire the batting coach? Put 3-4 guys on the DL and bring up some AAA players for a couple of weeks? Honestly, when the whole team is playing this bad, it's time to do something.

I was planning on travelling to Cincy to watch a weekend homestand this year but I've decided against it. I want to watch baseball that would include the home team scoring more runs in a series than I can count on one hand.

ChatterRed
06-19-2008, 02:50 PM
I just want to watch baseball, and Cincinnati Reds baseball isn't baseball. ;)

Kingspoint
06-19-2008, 02:54 PM
We suck because our two veteran starters were used more innings over the last couple of years than they should have been and it's finally caught up to them. If they were their normal selves, we'd be in the thick of the playoff race.

LouisvilleCARDS
06-19-2008, 03:00 PM
Pitching wise: Arroyo and Harang have not been hot, maybe due to workload, our random fifth starter we put in there, be it Bailey, Fogg, or Belisle this year has likely close to a 12 ERA. The bullpen is more reliable than before, but still one of the worst in ERA in the NL because essentially Burton and Cordero are the only two semi reliable guys.

Batting: Everything. We're starting a minor league team out there due to injuries, Griffey is at the twilight of his career, and Dunn is hitting worse than ever. Encarnacion doesn't seem to be improving and looks like a 4A player, Phillips is batting worse than he has since he got here, our catchers are essentially second stringers you hope can bat .220 on a year.

Does that sum it up? Basically, we have a bunch of crappy players, and the ones that aren't crappy career wise, and well below their career averages for whatever reason (Dunn, Griffey, Phillips, Arroyo, Harang).

HeatherC1212
06-19-2008, 03:46 PM
If Keppinger, Hairston, and heck, even Freel were around and in the lineups of the last few weeks, there would be a lot less griping on this board and a lot more wins for the Reds. Losing Keppinger really hurt us but losing Hairston and Freel (and the energy they can both bring to the club) just about did the club in and that's a shame. The team was playing pretty good baseball when their lead off hitter could actually hit and get on base. I miss those guys a lot. :(

_Sir_Charles_
06-19-2008, 05:09 PM
Honestly, I'm at a loss for words. What is it? Did we have too high expectations for a team that's just not good? Is it really Dusty whom many of us weren't thrilled with in the first place? Are they too young of a team right now to have consistency?

It's a large combination of things. First off, I don't think we "suck". We're certainly not contenders, thats for sure.

Any team that begins a youth movement is going to be wildly inconsistant. We're seeing that with Jay, Joey, Johnny, and others.

We're also very poor defensively. Not just at a few positions...but all over. We've got one solid defensive player in Brandon Phillips and that's about it. If Dusty would keep some players in steady positions, they could develop into solid defensive players though IMO. Keppinger, Votto, Bruce and even Edwin.

While it looks like our pitching is horrible, you've got to factor in a couple of things. First, our launching-pad of a stadium is always going to make our pitchers look worse than they are. Second, our defense is hurting them tremendously. Third, our lack of offense seems to be forcing our pitchers to try to paint corners more than they should. They're trying to be perfect because they know that thier margin for error is so small. Overall, our pitching is much better than in recent years. Even the bullpen.

Our roster's lack of solid hitters for average is really hurting our production. We're either hitting Homeruns, or we're not scoring. We do not seem to have the ability to play small-ball. The lack of consistant mid-to-high batting average hitters in our lineup makes it very easy for opposing pitchers to work their way through our lineup virtually unscathed.

Lastly, Dusty's inability to construct the lineup in a way to accentuate our player's positives hampers our ability to produce runs. Dunn is far to low in the order. Junior is far to high. Getting Corey out of the leadoff spot is a beginning. These little things may not look like much, but over the long-haul, they have lasting effects on our production. Not to mention the fact that once they get it set up correctly, players will begin to get comfortable in those line-up positions and learn what's expected of them in those situations.

Fundamentals. For a manager who seemed to preach all about fundamentals in S.T. and before, we sure don't seem to see much fudamentals out there on the field. How many times have we seen a lead off man on first with no outs and we're not able to drive him in with small ball? The basic hitting fundamentals seem to be lost on this team. The ability is there though.

As long as we show improvement at the end of the year, I'll be satisfied. I thoroughly believe that we'll play much better in the second half of the season as our rook's get more experience and more comfortable.

Blue
06-19-2008, 05:09 PM
As Lee Elia said, "the name of the game is 'hit the ball, catch the ball, and get the ******* job done." The Reds fail in all three respects. Plus, they can't pitch. Lee left that part out, although in fairness it can probably be considered part of getting the ******* job done.

redsfanmia
06-19-2008, 05:19 PM
No heart.

_Sir_Charles_
06-19-2008, 05:23 PM
Plus, they can't pitch.

I'd have to disagree on that one. Yes, Harang and Arroyo have struggled (but I certainly don't see that as a season-long problem). But the Reds offense/defense certainly haven't helped any.

Cueto and Volquez have both pitched better than expected.

Take the overused garbage out of the bullpen and it's been very good too. Weathers, Lincoln, Merker and Fogg should be shown the door. But the rest of the pen has been flat out solid. Cordero, Burton, Bray, Majewski, Affeldt (had a few poor outings lately), Herrera. We've also got Roenicke coming up soon too. I've always thought MLB teams carry too many relief pitchers. The Reds are a prime example of that. Especially considering our 3 catcher situation on top of that. (this is a topic for another thread I think...so maybe I'll just.....)

Fix our lineup construction and dump the garbage and we'll see some steady improvement throughout this year. Will we still be out of contention...you betcha.

Blue
06-19-2008, 05:41 PM
I'd have to disagree on that one.

I agree with everything you said about individual players, except for Cueto, who I thought would be better than he has been. I still like his future.

However, I think its true that the Reds can't pitch this year. The pitching staff (and defense) have given up the third most runs/game in the NL. Even with an average defense, its still got to be pretty bad.

_Sir_Charles_
06-19-2008, 05:53 PM
I agree with everything you said about individual players, except for Cueto, who I thought would be better than he has been. I still like his future.

However, I think its true that the Reds can't pitch this year. The pitching staff (and defense) have given up the third most runs/game in the NL. Even with an average defense, its still got to be pretty bad.

Well, in regards to Cueto...you still have to factor in the "young" part. That means inconsistant. He went through his "learning phase" with those multiple poor starts after his great debut. He seems to be coming back around. I don't think we should expect Volquez-type numbers or Cueto-springtraining-type numbers. Just solid production from a #3 or #4 starter. And despite his lack of wins, his era should be considerably lower than what it is now if he had a defense behind him.

In regards to the team era...take out Fogg, Weathers, Merker & Lincoln as I said and it's very good. Harang and Arroyo are NOT going to continue to pitch the way that they have so far this year. Their track record alone says that they'll snap out of it. Our team era has taken a beating from our 5th starter fiasco and the above mentioned relievers. Once this F.O. figures out that it's time to dump them (Fogg and Weathers at the bare minimum) is the time that we'll see that ERA make an about-face. I also simply can't imagine us getting WORSE pitching from the #5 starter the rest of the season. I just don't think it's possible. 13 starts from the trio (Belisle, Fogg, Bailey) have resulted in 70.1 ip / 67 earned runs / 8.60 era. I think Ryan Freel could pitch 13 games and have at least comparable numbers :O)

mroby85
06-19-2008, 05:59 PM
If we with ink the ocean fill
and were the skies of parchment made
were every stalk on earth a quill,
and every man a scribe by trade
to write about the lack of reds clout
would drain the ocean dry
nor could the scroll contain the whole,
though stretched from sky to sky

Blue
06-19-2008, 06:10 PM
If we with ink the ocean fill
and were the skies of parchment made
were every stalk on earth a quill,
and every man a scribe by trade
to write about the lack of reds clout
would drain the ocean dry
nor could the scroll contain the whole,
though stretched from sky to sky

Well said.

mound_patrol
06-19-2008, 06:18 PM
We don't suck. It's just all the other teams are better than us right now.

redsfan1966
06-19-2008, 06:36 PM
We do suck, and I agree with other posters that this aint baseball....I am still a Reds fan, but I have decided that from here on out this season if there are multiple games on during a given evening, the Reds will get low priority--I dont want this team killing my love of the game.

As far as why we suck, I truly believe its because we are a rudderless ship---we dont pick a direction and go with it---we start out saying we are going to grow from within, but turn around and throw cash at Dusty, Corey and Cordero (mind you, that last one is a good move). We just dont stick with any type of plan---Krivsky should still be the GM of this club, and Dusty should not be in the dugout---the "dude" struck me as a moron during his tenure as an ESPN analyst. Mackanin should have stayed or we should have made a bigger play for Girardi. Of course, I could be horribly wrong its just my opinion...

gedred69
06-19-2008, 06:52 PM
No heart.

That is truth. And I blame certain players for that. Definately, losing Keppinger, Hairston, and the sometime spark Freel can supply----like right before he went down---really hurt at a time when the team was starting to play like at least a .500 team. Now, the effort is so lackluster and un-inspired, that I would hate to see any of the other "bright future prospects" brought up, for fear of contaminating their mindsets by playing them with a bunch of banal efforted and resigned individuals. Maybe once the cancers are gone, but not until then.

Fon Duc Tow
06-19-2008, 08:38 PM
Who are the cancers?

Did Dusty mess up Harang's arm in that 18 inning loss?

Should the hitting coach be fired?

Patterson leading off, Griffey batting 3rd, and Dunn too low in the lineup. How many wins has this cost us?

What needs to happen in order to make the Reds contenders and why can't anyone figure it out? What are the Reds missing?

Blue
06-19-2008, 09:13 PM
^^^ To answer your questions:

There are none.

I don't think so.

Probably.

Three.

A lot. A lot.

Big Hurt
06-19-2008, 10:08 PM
It's a large combination of things. First off, I don't think we "suck". We're certainly not contenders, thats for sure.

Any team that begins a youth movement is going to be wildly inconsistant. We're seeing that with Jay, Joey, Johnny, and others.

We're also very poor defensively. Not just at a few positions...but all over. We've got one solid defensive player in Brandon Phillips and that's about it. If Dusty would keep some players in steady positions, they could develop into solid defensive players though IMO. Keppinger, Votto, Bruce and even Edwin.

While it looks like our pitching is horrible, you've got to factor in a couple of things. First, our launching-pad of a stadium is always going to make our pitchers look worse than they are. Second, our defense is hurting them tremendously. Third, our lack of offense seems to be forcing our pitchers to try to paint corners more than they should. They're trying to be perfect because they know that thier margin for error is so small. Overall, our pitching is much better than in recent years. Even the bullpen.

Our roster's lack of solid hitters for average is really hurting our production. We're either hitting Homeruns, or we're not scoring. We do not seem to have the ability to play small-ball. The lack of consistant mid-to-high batting average hitters in our lineup makes it very easy for opposing pitchers to work their way through our lineup virtually unscathed.

Lastly, Dusty's inability to construct the lineup in a way to accentuate our player's positives hampers our ability to produce runs. Dunn is far to low in the order. Junior is far to high. Getting Corey out of the leadoff spot is a beginning. These little things may not look like much, but over the long-haul, they have lasting effects on our production. Not to mention the fact that once they get it set up correctly, players will begin to get comfortable in those line-up positions and learn what's expected of them in those situations.

Fundamentals. For a manager who seemed to preach all about fundamentals in S.T. and before, we sure don't seem to see much fudamentals out there on the field. How many times have we seen a lead off man on first with no outs and we're not able to drive him in with small ball? The basic hitting fundamentals seem to be lost on this team. The ability is there though.

As long as we show improvement at the end of the year, I'll be satisfied. I thoroughly believe that we'll play much better in the second half of the season as our rook's get more experience and more comfortable.

This is the post of the year and should be stuck to the top of the page. It in fact is exactley, IMO, the problems we are having this year. Well done, Charles!:beerme: