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View Full Version : Red's minor league prospects not making a very good showing



ChatterRed
06-22-2008, 08:47 AM
Now that Bruce and Votto are up in the majors, Thompson came up and made a good showing.......and Homer has exposed himself as a bit overhyped.........what is left in the minors?

Frazier? Jukich?

If Thompson sticks with the mlb club, does Jukich move up to triple A?

Blitz Dorsey
06-22-2008, 09:44 AM
Josh Roenicke (AAA), Danny Herrera (AAA), Matt Maloney (AAA), Chris Valaika (AA), Jukich (AA), Juan Francisco (A+), Frazier (A+), Yonder Alonso (A+ when he signs), Devin Mesoraco (A-), Kyle Lotzkar (A-), Zach Stewart (A-), Neftali Soto (Rookie +).

There are more, but those are some of the guys I've been keeping a close eye on lately.

membengal
06-22-2008, 09:52 AM
Chatter, I don't understand the title of this thread. Are you saying the minor leaguers the Reds have called up have not made a very good showing? Because, if so, I hugely disagree. Cueto, Bruce, Votto have been been as advertised. Thompson just had a nice first start. That leaves Bailey, who for whatever reason has regressed. Pretty darn fine showings from where I am sitting.

And, as blitz points out, there is genuine talent coursing through this system, and guys on the way that are going to help someone. I would have included Drew Stubbs, Travis Wood, Brandon Waring, and Sam Lecure on Blitz's list as well. Shaun Cumberland too, for that matter. The Montano pitcher in Dayton (Cordero's cousin) is intriguing as well. Sean Watson is worth watching too.

The youth on the major league team and talent throughout the minors are THE reason to be happy about this team, in my opinion.

RedlegJake
06-22-2008, 10:43 AM
Man I was and am baffled by the title of this thread. I thought at first it referred to bad starts by new draftees and I was going to disagree. Now I'm still going to disagree but on even broader terms.

Look at Todd Frazier's numbers. His numbers are better than Votto's minor league totals though similar across the board, he beats Joey's numbers by a small margin in nearly every category. Frazier is as close to a lock as a hitter as you can find short of Jay Bruce.

Ben Jukich has little left to prove except to just continue pitching like he has. He'll soon be in AAA.

Josh Roenicke is the best and closest to the majors of a bunch of strong arm relievers and new draftee Zach Stewart may be pushing him for that title. Both are major league caliber arms - and GOOD caliber, too, I'm not talking mid relief filler. Closer stuff.

If you want a mega star with lots of press then Alonso will fill that bill when he gets signed.

Devin Mesaraco is a way off but his bat is looking good in a league where he's under aged and should have been a bit over matched. He probably is actually, a bit, but his talent is overcoming his lack of experience and he'll keep getting better.

That's just scratching the surface. Read the threads in this forum - there are tons of good prospects in the Reds system.

redsmetz
06-22-2008, 12:34 PM
I agree with what folks have said, but I'd even question the statement that Homer's been overhyped. Clearly he's shown some ability in the minors, and we can argue about whether he's been rushed, etc, but even though he's still not ready for, we can't forget he's still just 22 years old. He may never pan out, but it's also possible he can have an epiphany much like Edinson Volquez did and come back. Volquez at 22, went 1-6 for Texas. I can't say it's a given that Bailey will ever succeed, but he's not a washout yet.

Spring~Fields
06-22-2008, 12:42 PM
Chatter, I don't understand the title of this thread.

I don't either, but it got me to look. Especially since the opposite seems true to me.

I went through most of the major league teams minor league players last night AAA and AA, just playing, hoping to find a what if, what if Jocketty might trade for young player x or y from another team to meet the Reds needs, most of the players on other teams minor leagues rosters did not look as good as what the Reds had in their system before the callups to me.

At least it helped me to see why many of you have praised the Reds minor leagues even more.

ChatterRed
06-22-2008, 08:00 PM
Not talking about those who have moved up to the majors. I've been following our remaining minor leaguers, and not many are standing out at this point, IMHO.

I like Frazier. I like Soto (rookie ball). Maloney looked to be making strides and has regressed lately. I like Jukich, but not so sure he will make it to the Bigs.

Drew Stubbs will never make it to the Bigs. Count on it. Another overhyped player.

I liked Waring, but he is striking out at a ridiculous clip.

I do like Herrera. Nice pickup. Not so sure about Roenicke's control.

It just seems like the best has moved up, and there's not much ready behind them.

dougdirt
06-22-2008, 08:13 PM
Drew Stubbs will never make it to the Bigs. Count on it. Another overhyped player.

Never? Thats a pretty strong statement for a player who has gotten better with every level he has taken.

fearofpopvol1
06-22-2008, 08:15 PM
Not talking about those who have moved up to the majors. I've been following our remaining minor leaguers, and not many are standing out at this point, IMHO.

I like Frazier. I like Soto (rookie ball). Maloney looked to be making strides and has regressed lately. I like Jukich, but not so sure he will make it to the Bigs.

Drew Stubbs will never make it to the Bigs. Count on it. Another overhyped player.

I liked Waring, but he is striking out at a ridiculous clip.

I do like Herrera. Nice pickup. Not so sure about Roenicke's control.

It just seems like the best has moved up, and there's not much ready behind them.

I'm glad you have a crystal ball (re: Stubbs). Can you give me the winning Powerball numbers for next week?

It'd be amazing to have superior depth at every minor league affiliate. Thing is, there are maybe 5-7 teams in all of baseball that have extreme depth while having a great team at the MLB level. Given all the recent promotions, I think the Reds are still pretty well positioned. Especially when you consider that the Reds had a pretty good draft this year. Within a year, the Reds farm system will be ranked highly again I believe.

membengal
06-22-2008, 08:26 PM
Not talking about those who have moved up to the majors. I've been following our remaining minor leaguers, and not many are standing out at this point, IMHO.

I like Frazier. I like Soto (rookie ball). Maloney looked to be making strides and has regressed lately. I like Jukich, but not so sure he will make it to the Bigs.

Drew Stubbs will never make it to the Bigs. Count on it. Another overhyped player.

I liked Waring, but he is striking out at a ridiculous clip.

I do like Herrera. Nice pickup. Not so sure about Roenicke's control.

It just seems like the best has moved up, and there's not much ready behind them.

Ridiculous. The farm system remains as deep as it has been in 15 years. It will again be a top 10 ranked system.

cincyinco
06-22-2008, 08:57 PM
its true the reds have graduated a lot of top talent, and that the system will take an overall "hit" in the rankings because of this. But thats not a bad thing. It means we actually graduated some talent - which has proven difficult for the Reds in the past.

Still, I see a lot of things to be excited about. They may not have as many players in the tier of Bruce/Votto/Cueto..

But Frazier, Waring, Valaika, Stubbs, Mesoraco, Soto, Roenicke, Wood, Maloney, Jukich, potentially Alonso, at al. gives me plenty of things to be excited about. The depth is still exponentially better than it has been in years. Its just a bit thinner at the top now due to the promotions. No big deal. The farm is still in good shape.

camisadelgolf
06-22-2008, 09:10 PM
Drew Stubbs will never make it to the Bigs. Count on it.
I would wager everything I own to take this bet. Now, as far as him being a success in the Bigs . . . my wager would become much smaller.

ChatterRed
06-23-2008, 12:02 AM
Atleast I have the cahunas to go out on a limb and state my opinion.

So what if I have strong opinions. So many on here don't have the guts to make predictions.

We may have talent in the minors, but the point of my post is that our minor league system won't be supplying any major leaguers for a couple of more seasons at this point. Most of the talent is in A-ball, either high or low. I just don't see Jukich being ready anytime soon, AND I LIKE JUKICH ALOT. I would love for him to be in the mix of coming to the majors, but I still think he has a long way to go.

I think alot of people on this board think we can unload Dunn and Griffey (which I'd love to do) and re-stock from our farm system. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN right now.

We will have to go the free agency route. Nobody in the minors is ready to replace those guys.

11larkin11
06-23-2008, 12:16 AM
As of this year, Dunn and Griffey or not, we ain't scoring runs in most games. When we do, it is a 12 run blowout, thats where the decent stats come from.

TN Red Fan
06-23-2008, 12:21 AM
So what if I have strong opinions. So many on here don't have the guts to make predictions.
You're a real breath of fresh air.:rolleyes:



We will have to go the free agency route. Nobody in the minors is ready to replace those guys.
Was that the point of this thread? Why not just say so rather than fishing?

Free agency is a moot point. They're going to set a salary figure and Jocketty's going to spend every dime available, regardless of what the farm system provides.

membengal
06-23-2008, 04:40 AM
Atleast I have the cahunas to go out on a limb and state my opinion.

So what if I have strong opinions. So many on here don't have the guts to make predictions.

We may have talent in the minors, but the point of my post is that our minor league system won't be supplying any major leaguers for a couple of more seasons at this point. Most of the talent is in A-ball, either high or low. I just don't see Jukich being ready anytime soon, AND I LIKE JUKICH ALOT. I would love for him to be in the mix of coming to the majors, but I still think he has a long way to go.

I think alot of people on this board think we can unload Dunn and Griffey (which I'd love to do) and re-stock from our farm system. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN right now.

We will have to go the free agency route. Nobody in the minors is ready to replace those guys.

The above bolded parts are a joke, right? What in the name of all that is holy are you talking about? This place is full of nothing but strong opinions. But, hey, thanks for being the only one on here who has ever made a prediction. That's definitely a first for this part of the board...sheesh.

On top of that, your particular prediction is ridiculously misinformed. But at least you had the guts to have a misinformed opinion. Gosh, what a rarity.

ETA: There are at least two guys who would make a positive impact on this team now, by the way. Without question Josh Roenicke. And I think Cumberland would be an immediate upgrade on Patterson. That's in addition to the five the farm system has already fed the big club. And by this time next year? Frazier, Valakia, Wood, Lecure, and others may very well be knocking on the door. Jukich should be competing for a spot in the rotation next spring. And there is a wave beyond that.

corkedbat
06-23-2008, 05:10 AM
Atleast I have the cahunas to go out on a limb and state my opinion.

So what if I have strong opinions. So many on here don't have the guts to make predictions.




Wow, guess that makes you the big Kajone :D

RedlegJake
06-23-2008, 08:59 AM
Actually I see where he Chatter is coming from to a degree. There are no big guns waiting in the wings that can be considered immediate possibilities. Roenicke is going to have some struggles, I think, if called up now because of control. He'd still be an improvement over Maj. Cumberland would be better than Patterson? I agree but that's damning with faint praise is it not? And I expect Cumberland to be an average major leaguer at best. Now that is helpful but it's not major impact land. Chatter is pretty much right about IMMEDIATE impact players. Frazier is the next impact type hitter and I don;t think he can be called ready or near ready just yet. Another year. Chatter also said most of the best talent is in the low minors and I'd agree with that. Not unusual considering the number of players brought up that have siphoned the cream off the top. Now, if Chatter is saying he thinks there are no good players at any level then I'd strongly disagree and say his opinion was all wrong but as he couched it


We may have talent in the minors, but the point of my post is that our minor league system won't be supplying any major leaguers for a couple of more seasons at this point. Most of the talent is in A-ball, either high or low. I just don't see Jukich being ready anytime soon, AND I LIKE JUKICH ALOT. I would love for him to be in the mix of coming to the majors, but I still think he has a long way to go.

he isn't far off base. I'm of the opinion that Frazier will be ready by June next season, and Jukich will make a strong push for a role next spring. Also Herrerra and Roenicke will likely be candidates along with Cumberland, Dickerson, Rosales, Tatum and Guitierrez (guys that will have to be on the 40 man if they are going to be protected and so will get the first shots) but I don't see anyone in that group making a huge impact. Most would be bench/mid-relief players if they stick. Frazier is the one guy with impact, possibly Cumberland if he could win the CF role and that's a BIG if, imo. I've lost a lot of enthusiasm for Maloney.

Finally Chatter's opinion of Stubbs is so out of line it deserves the shots some have made at him? If you made me pull out my checkbook to bet on Stubbs or not - I'd take the not. I don't feel as strongly as ChatterRed does and have high hopes Drew progresses but I don't think Chatter deserves to be ridiculed for an opinion.

I have a ton of respect for Doug's minor league expertise, and for mem and for most of you guys, but anyone opining in the critical side about a touted prospect gets lambasted. Showing reasons why you think Chatter's opinion (or mine or anyone's) is wrong is fine but blasting him and ridiculing him for having an opinion is wrong.

I think the thread title kind of got Chatter in hot water as it got many (myself included) thinking "what the...". Then he made a civil reply and got more criticsm. Then this thread fell off the track. Chatter made a defensive post, obviously starting to feel attacked and things regressed from there.

So to put a wrap to it - Chatter I respect your opinion. I don't agree with a lot of it but so what? You're just as likely to be right as I am - we'll just have to see.

membengal
06-23-2008, 09:20 AM
I apologize for attacking, to the extent I did. It is just that this place has no shortage of people willing to make predictions and take stands, it kinda pushed a button to see it stated as a place opposite than that.

That aside, it is completely unrealistic for an organizaiton to dump 2/5 of a starting rotation and 2/8 of an everyday line-up into the majors and expect there to be another four immediately right behind it of the quality that just went north. Bruce/Cueto/Votto are clearly major league caliber players. I suspect Thompson is going to be as well.

So the question is what one expects of a minor league system. I think, for your average team, having guys available to plug holes and help grind to wins is a decent yearly hope, with the occasional player more valuable than that. In the last three years, the system has delivered better than that, with EE and the aforementioned big four arriving with some success.

Despite that, there ARE a slew of players coming who may even become what the above were. The timeframe for that is not this year (those players have arrived), it is next year and the year after. And in that timeframe, there are more coming.

Even in the interim, Homer Bailey still lurks (whatever it is that he is at this point), and 22 is not exactly old. Volquez was a bust in Texas at age 22. Yaneverknow. Yeah Patterson blows mule, but at least Cumberland is close and available. If it were me running the team, he would be in now. Roenicke should be here now as well. He'll take lumps? Of course, all rookies do, but that doesn't mean he is not immediately available as an impact player.

In short, I still reject the premise. But apologize for my tone. Sorry.

bucksfan2
06-23-2008, 10:18 AM
What is immediate? Last season Bruce was in A ball. Valakia could possibly end up in AAA by the end of the season and guys like Fraizer and Stubbs can finish the season in AA. Another question is where does Alonso end up at the end of the season? If he is in A+ or AA he is one hot streak away from being in AAA. So yes the Reds have lost quite a bit from the farm system as of late but that doesn't mean that the system isn't stocked. It may not have the high end talent or star power that it did last season but it still could be a very good system.

HokieRed
06-23-2008, 10:31 AM
I think we will have Bailey (if not at Cinti.), Jukich, Maloney, Ramirez, Lecure, Cumberland, Valaika, Eymann, Roenicke, Herrera, and possibly Dorn at L'ville by Sept 1. I'd be surprised if many other organizations have that many AAA players with a legitimate shot at being major league players. They may not be at the impact level of the group that has just come up, but that's a fair amount of depth pretty close by--and having good players in the supporting roles allows the major league club to avoid the trap of having to pay outrageously for experienced mediocrity--something that did Wayne K in as much as anything--Patterson, Castro, Stanton, Cormier et. al.

Betterread
06-23-2008, 01:00 PM
I'm not sure I agree with you Chatter. Homer and Matt Maloney will both get opportunities to start games with the Reds this year and Roenicke will get called up too. They are all top 10 Reds prospects and if called up, expectations will be high. Then after them, there is Valaika, Dickerson, Turner, Dorn, Cumberland, and LeCure that may all get a chance in 2008 (they are all in AA or higher). This group is not universally graded as high as the first three prospects, but they are projected major leaguers.

HokieRed
06-23-2008, 01:51 PM
Guy rarely gets any mention but is, I think, making it harder to ignore him. Eymann at Chatt. for June is .360/.389/.523/.912. 86 AB's, 6 2b's/ 1 3b/ 2 HR's/ 14 RBI/ 11K's. He hit .330 in May, too, after having a bad April. The knock on him has been he doesn't have a lot of power, but he seems to be hitting with more power all the time and he's on base to have 35-40 doubles for the year.

PuffyPig
06-23-2008, 02:27 PM
We may have talent in the minors, but the point of my post is that our minor league system won't be supplying any major leaguers for a couple of more seasons at this point. Most of the talent is in A-ball, either high or low. I just don't see Jukich being ready anytime soon, AND I LIKE JUKICH ALOT. I would love for him to be in the mix of coming to the majors, but I still think he has a long way to go.



At this time last year, nobody would have thought that Cueto or Thompson had any chance to be in our 2008 rotation, as each was still in A ball. And Volquez wasn't even on our team, nor was Maloney.

OnBaseMachine
06-23-2008, 02:50 PM
Guy rarely gets any mention but is, I think, making it harder to ignore him. Eymann at Chatt. for June is .360/.389/.523/.912. 86 AB's, 6 2b's/ 1 3b/ 2 HR's/ 14 RBI/ 11K's. He hit .330 in May, too, after having a bad April. The knock on him has been he doesn't have a lot of power, but he seems to be hitting with more power all the time and he's on base to have 35-40 doubles for the year.

Eymann was rated as the best defensive shortstop in the Big-10 in 2004 when he was at Illinois. I believe the transferred to Kansas State the following year. Anyway, I'm curious as to how good his defense really is. His power seems to be developing pretty good but he really needs to learn to walk more as he's only walked 10 times in 229 atbats.

camisadelgolf
06-24-2008, 09:21 AM
He's pretty big for a shortstop. I think he's no more a shortstop than Adam Rosales.

ChatterRed
06-24-2008, 11:57 AM
At this time last year, nobody would have thought that Cueto or Thompson had any chance to be in our 2008 rotation, as each was still in A ball. And Volquez wasn't even on our team, nor was Maloney.

I thought Cueto would make the starting rotation. I thought Thompson would be in triple A. I was close.