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View Full Version : Dusty Baker needs to get off his butt and do some homework.



Kingspoint
06-27-2008, 11:31 PM
Daryl Thompson is only 2 years removed from Major arm surgery and Dusty needs to know that he's only an 85-88 pitch starter right now. The evidence is there if Dusty spent a little time studying it instead of eating himself into an early death.

Just in his last start, his fastball cruises along at 94-95 MPH through the first 85 pitches, then it all of a sudden drops to 91-92 MPH, it loses its bite, and his other pitches lose their effectiveness as well from his changeup to his curveball, etc.

But, Dusty thinks he's just another pitcher and should be able to do the same thing as everyone else. So, instead of replacing him to start the sixth in a 1-0 game, Dusty uses him and the REDS are down 6-0 before it's over while at the same time ruining a good performance by Thompson, probably effecting his confidence, and also threatening to ruin the kid's arm.

Dusty, get a clue, and do some frickin' work for all that jack you're getting paid.

I could do a better job without question.

757690
06-27-2008, 11:52 PM
Wow, I don't think I have ever heard anyone whine about a manager leaving in a pitcher beyond 85 pitches.

1) The Reds let their rookie league pitchers pitch past 85 pitches.
2) The game was close, and Thompson was pitching fine.
3) The bullpen has been taxed lately.
4) So he lost a few miles off his fastball. That means nothing in term so when to take him out. Every pitching coach will tell you that mechanics is the main factor in deciding to take out a pitcher, especially a young one. Thompson had the same mechanics in the 5th as in every other inning.
5) My opinion is that unless you are in the dugout and know everything that the pitching coach knows about the circumstance, you have no right to second guess a decision on whether or not to take out a pitcher.

ChatterRed
06-28-2008, 12:21 AM
I watched the entire game and I remember Thompson's pitches in his last inning were still hitting around 94 mph. Don't know what you were watching.

Placement was his problem.

roby
06-28-2008, 12:22 AM
Wow, I don't think I have ever heard anyone whine about a manager leaving in a pitcher beyond 85 pitches.

1) The Reds let their rookie league pitchers pitch past 85 pitches.
2) The game was close, and Thompson was pitching fine.
3) The bullpen has been taxed lately.
4) So he lost a few miles off his fastball. That means nothing in term so when to take him out. Every pitching coach will tell you that mechanics is the main factor in deciding to take out a pitcher, especially a young one. Thompson had the same mechanics in the 5th as in every other inning.
5) My opinion is that unless you are in the dugout and know everything that the pitching coach knows about the circumstance, you have no right to second guess a decision on whether or not to take out a pitcher.

I think the point is that Thompson still needs a little coddling because of Tommy John surgery.

ChatterRed
06-28-2008, 12:24 AM
I think this team has been coddled enough. Someone needs to light a fire under their you know whats.

Kingspoint
06-28-2008, 11:06 AM
Wow, I don't think I have ever heard anyone whine about a manager leaving in a pitcher beyond 85 pitches.

1) The Reds let their rookie league pitchers pitch past 85 pitches.
2) The game was close, and Thompson was pitching fine.
3) The bullpen has been taxed lately.
4) So he lost a few miles off his fastball. That means nothing in term so when to take him out. Every pitching coach will tell you that mechanics is the main factor in deciding to take out a pitcher, especially a young one. Thompson had the same mechanics in the 5th as in every other inning.
5) My opinion is that unless you are in the dugout and know everything that the pitching coach knows about the circumstance, you have no right to second guess a decision on whether or not to take out a pitcher.

You read nothing of what I wrote.

You're being exactly like Dusty Baker. Every pitcher is different. Thompson has nothing to do with as you say, "the Reds other rookie pitchers that pitch past 85 pitches." "The bullpen was being taxed lately" should have no bearing on whether or not you use Thompson beyond his arm's capabilities. "So he lost a few miles off his fastball has nothing to do with when or why you take him out?"....R U Serious?!

I have every right in the world to question any and every move that's made by the REDS, and I don't need to be in the dugout to figure it out. Maybe you do, but I don't.

Read my lips...Thompson's arm has a pitch limit and that limit is between 85-90 pitches this year. Whether it's more next year, we won't know until after the season and it's had it's rest and we come back and go through another Spring training.

I'll sign you up for the same class that Dusty needs to be in on understanding that each pitcher is different.

I guess you don't get it, either.

Kingspoint
06-28-2008, 11:09 AM
I watched the entire game and I remember Thompson's pitches in his last inning were still hitting around 94 mph. Don't know what you were watching.

Placement was his problem.

You can look it up. The last 3 batters he faced, his fastballs were hitting 91-92, and possibly 90....but for the rest of the game they were consistently 94-95.

ChatterRed
06-28-2008, 11:24 AM
If a starter can't go 6 innings, then they should be in the bullpen.

Griffey012
06-28-2008, 11:46 AM
I think this team has been coddled enough. Someone needs to light a fire under their you know whats.

Agreed, maybe Ricciardi should have just said the entire reds team doesn't like playing baseball. That is what it seems like when watching them.

Dunnateher
06-28-2008, 11:46 AM
If a starter can't go 6 innings, then they should be in the bullpen.

Dunnateher
06-28-2008, 12:00 PM
I meant to add, that the pups need more monitoring than say a 26-27 year old starter. He should have been pulled as the movement of 94+ becomes hittable -3 mph after the 4th. What was his highest pitch count prior? Dusty wrecks arms, please pray that we keep ours intact. Mario Soto for pitching coach or trade Arroyo for Maddux and let him coach. The fire the reds have in young guns needs to be flamed not extinguished.

ChatterRed
06-28-2008, 12:22 PM
As I said before, his placement is why he started getting hit. Not his speed. Not much difference between 92 and 94. 97.....yes.

Big Hurt
06-28-2008, 01:49 PM
It looked to me that he ran out of gas. The inning before he was pulled he gave up a homerun and the other balls were tagged very hard after that HR. I feared he would come back out in the next inning and I yelled at the television to take him out. The television didn't listen and Thompson got nailed. Anyone watching the game could see he was gassed. What that's indicative , I don't know. Could be nervousness, stress, lack of sleep, or poor diet. He appeared to be laboring physically just before he was pulled.

akron3344
06-28-2008, 01:55 PM
dusty baker has done his homeowrk and the results of that assignment is to declare that patterson is really good

mroby85
06-28-2008, 02:18 PM
Blame Dusty, everything in the world is Dusty's fault. it has nothing to do with the idiots he has to work with on this team. I remember before the season started, everyone hated Dusty, because he loved veterans, and wouldn't give guys such as votto, bruce, cueto, or volquez shots. Well guess what, they've been in the lineups almost every day, and hatteberg was sent out. I'm so sick of threads ripping Dusty Baker I could puke. There is no way you could construct this pathetic offense to score runs. When you have several games where your team has 3 hits, and pitcher has 1 of them, it makes it pretty tough to construct the lineup to score runs. thats all i really have to say, i'm just sick of it.

GoReds33
06-28-2008, 02:30 PM
I do remember that he lost a lot of velocity when pitching in New York. It was on line with the numbers that you said. Still, he was pitching very well, and shouldn't be taken out at just 85 pitches, imo.

757690
06-28-2008, 03:30 PM
You read nothing of what I wrote.

You're being exactly like Dusty Baker. Every pitcher is different. Thompson has nothing to do with as you say, "the Reds other rookie pitchers that pitch past 85 pitches." "The bullpen was being taxed lately" should have no bearing on whether or not you use Thompson beyond his arm's capabilities. "So he lost a few miles off his fastball has nothing to do with when or why you take him out?"....R U Serious?!

I have every right in the world to question any and every move that's made by the REDS, and I don't need to be in the dugout to figure it out. Maybe you do, but I don't.

Read my lips...Thompson's arm has a pitch limit and that limit is between 85-90 pitches this year. Whether it's more next year, we won't know until after the season and it's had it's rest and we come back and go through another Spring training.

I'll sign you up for the same class that Dusty needs to be in on understanding that each pitcher is different.

I guess you don't get it, either.

First, the point of the last two points in my post were to make clear that every pitcher is different, that is why unless you are in the dugout, you really don't know the whole story.

Second, Thompson is three years removed from surgery, not two. It was 2005. 2008 minus 2005 is three years.

And the notion that a pitcher needing to be held to a 85-90 pith count two years after the surgery is not supported by anything that I have found. I have no idea where you got your information, but it is simply incorrect.

Chris Carpenter pitched 182 innings less than two years after labrum surgery and won a Cy Young after that. Curt Shilling had the surgery in 1995 and the next year pitched 183 innings. I don't think that had a bad effect on his arm over the years. Jeff Brantley had the surgery in 1997 and then made 50 appearances as a reliever the next year. This year Kelvin Escobar of the Angels had labrum surgery, and already, just a few months after it, the Angles are about to move his pitch count in rehab to 90 pitches.

I have not found anywhere where one doctor says that you need to hold a pitcher who has had labrum surgery to a pitch count 2 years after the surgery, and especially not three years after the surgery.

Please post a link to where you found any information that backs up the assertion you are making. thank you.

Orodle
06-28-2008, 03:55 PM
wow...85 pitches?

Kingspoint
06-28-2008, 04:05 PM
First, the point of the last two points in my post were to make clear that every pitcher is different, that is why unless you are in the dugout, you really don't know the whole story.

Second, Thompson is three years removed from surgery, not two. It was 2005. 2008 minus 2005 is three years.

And the notion that a pitcher needing to be held to a 85-90 pith count two years after the surgery is not supported by anything that I have found. I have no idea where you got your information, but it is simply incorrect.

Chris Carpenter pitched 182 innings less than two years after labrum surgery and won a Cy Young after that. Curt Shilling had the surgery in 1995 and the next year pitched 183 innings. I don't think that had a bad effect on his arm over the years. Jeff Brantley had the surgery in 1997 and then made 50 appearances as a reliever the next year. This year Kelvin Escobar of the Angels had labrum surgery, and already, just a few months after it, the Angles are about to move his pitch count in rehab to 90 pitches.

I have not found anywhere where one doctor says that you need to hold a pitcher who has had labrum surgery to a pitch count 2 years after the surgery, and especially not three years after the surgery.

Please post a link to where you found any information that backs up the assertion you are making. thank you.

It has not been 3 years since he began pitching again after his surgery (you want me to give you the exact date?...he's been pitching for two years) and he's not Chris Carpenter. You can't treat him like he's someone else.

Here's your proof.

In Thompson's next start, his fastballs will be 94-95 MPH for all the batters until he gets to a pitch count between 85-90. The pitch count varies a little with how many times he throws over to first, how often he has to run the bases, etc, but it will be at the numbers 85-90. As soon as he throws his first fastball that is 92 MPH or less once he's hit the 85 pitch count, you'll see that his effectiveness with ALL of his pitches will be gone and he'll be hittable.

So, in four days you can see for yourself.

757690
06-28-2008, 04:19 PM
It has not been 3 years since he began pitching again after his surgery (you want me to give you the exact date?) and he's not Chris Carpenter. You can't treat him like he's someone else.

Here's your proof.

In Thompson's next start, his fastballs will be 94-95 MPH for all the batters until he gets to a pitch count between 85-90. The pitch count varies a little with how many times he throws over to first, how often he has to run the bases, etc, but it will be at the numbers 85-90. As soon as he throws his first fastball that is 92 MPH or less once he's hit the 85 pitch count, you'll see that his effectiveness with ALL of his pitches will be gone and he'll be hittable.

So, in four days you can see for yourself.

First, you said and I qoute "Daryl Thompson is only 2 years removed from Major arm surgery." Not "Daryl Thompson is only 2 years removed from starting to throw after recovering from arm surgery." So are you saying that a pitcher should throw for at least two full years before going above 85 pitches?


Second, I brought up four very different pitchers in order to emphasis that you have to judge every pitcher differently. I am not saying Thompson is any one of those pitchers or should be treated like those pitchers, just that there is no way of predicting how every pitcher will respond to labrum surgery.

Third, so basically, the answer is no, you don't have any links to back up your assertion. The title of the thread is "Dusty Baker needs to get off his butt and do some homework." But you have yet to provide any insight into what that homework would entail. What articles should he read? What studies should he read? Or should he just read your mind, since it seems to know all about Daryl Thompson and the health of his arm?

Kingspoint
06-28-2008, 04:26 PM
...and it's even less thrown for less than 2 years. This year, which is 1/2, last year, which is 1, and 2006 he only threw for about 15 innings.

Baker should be studying Daryl Thompson's gamelogs since his surgery (the gamelogs that come from the scouts), and he would know where his arm strength disappears. It's not rocket science, but it does take a little effort on Dusty's part that I think he's not willing to make.

Kingspoint
07-02-2008, 09:43 PM
From the very first batter through the last tonight, Thompson's fastball has been 89-91 MPH, and a few times it droped to 86-87. Not surprisingly, he has been pounded from the very first batter. He hasn't pitched this many innings from the start of Spring training in his entire career. He's now hit a wall and the All-Star break won't come soon enough for him.

An extra day's rest or a missed start would do him wonders and get his fastball back to 94-95 where it belongs and where it has that extra bite that makes it hard to hit (and his other pitches would also be more effective with that extra bit of boost).

I'd love to see Fogg, who's ready to go, take either Thompson's spot and send him back to AAA, or one of Arroyo's or Harang's starts.

Kingspoint
07-04-2008, 04:16 PM
Exactly as I said, for all of you who thought I was complaining and were wrong, not only did Thompson need to go back to the minors, which he has, but that Harang had to miss a start or two in order to give his "tired arm" enough rest to get him back to where he can pitch effectively. This is stated a month ago and a few times since and now he's going to get that missed start in order to rest his arm.

Please next time don't look at a comment as a complaint when someone is just trying to point out ways that can help a player and the team, and is opening it up for discussion. You really ruined a potentially good thread.

After Harang gets his rest, he should be fine for the rest of the season. He may miss two starts as it's likely they reevaluate him 6 days from now to determine if they'll skip him one more time.

Thomspon will be much better off down in the minors for the rest of the season, where it's a lot easier to control what he does.

757690
07-04-2008, 04:34 PM
Exactly as I said, for all of you who thought I was complaining and were wrong, not only did Thompson need to go back to the minors, which he has, but that Harang had to miss a start or two in order to give his "tired arm" enough rest to get him back to where he can pitch effectively. This is stated a month ago and a few times since and now he's going to get that missed start in order to rest his arm.

Please next time don't look at a comment as a complaint when someone is just trying to point out ways that can help a player and the team, and is opening it up for discussion. You really ruined a potentially good thread.

After Harang gets his rest, he should be fine for the rest of the season. He may miss two starts as it's likely they reevaluate him 6 days from now to determine if they'll skip him one more time.

Thomspon will be much better off down in the minors for the rest of the season, where it's a lot easier to control what he does.

Just a little constructive criticism, don't take it the wrong way.

But if you weren't complaining and really wanted only to open up a discussion, you should avoid these types of comments in your opening posts.


Dusty, get a clue, and do some frickin' work for all that jack you're getting paid.

I could do a better job without question.

It is statements like that, that make other members dismiss the other points you made.

superred
07-05-2008, 04:37 PM
at least dusty is better than narron