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44Magnum
06-30-2008, 09:24 AM
in which one of the players is hitting .234 and another player hitting .224?

durl
06-30-2008, 09:51 AM
The Nationals? Their highest BA in the outfield is .250. 3 are batting below .200. Austin Kearns, the one the Reds needed to make the playoffs, is hitting .187.

The Nationals OFer with the most Runs (Milledge) has scored the exact same number of runs as Griffey. And Griffey has more 2 more RBIs in 30 fewer ABs. Dunn has 16 more RBIs than the top RBI man in the outfield for the Nats.

bgwilly31
06-30-2008, 11:13 AM
The Nationals? Their highest BA in the outfield is .250. 3 are batting below .200. Austin Kearns, the one the Reds needed to make the playoffs, is hitting .187.

The Nationals OFer with the most Runs (Milledge) has scored the exact same number of runs as Griffey. And Griffey has more 2 more RBIs in 30 fewer ABs. Dunn has 16 more RBIs than the top RBI man in the outfield for the Nats.

So that makes us good, and our situation ok?

44Magnum
06-30-2008, 11:36 AM
So that makes us good, and our situation ok?

No doubt! That is exactly what I was thinking when reading about how bad the Nats are.

I guess by that logic...if a team is the worst in history, then we should be OK with being the second worst team in history.

durl
06-30-2008, 11:50 AM
So that makes us good, and our situation ok?

Nope. But it makes us better than the OP wants us to believe.

Listen, I know everyone is bothered at the lack of production of Dunn and Griffey but too many people go way overboard and sometimes I wonder if we really need another post about their low numbers. They are what they are and 12,868 threads about them are not going to make them improve.

Expressing your viewpoint is one thing. Constantly whining about the situation just gets old. That's why I quit visiting the reds.com board.

Griffey012
06-30-2008, 01:00 PM
What team has a batting average of .246? Why harp on selecting players when the team as a whole is at fault. By the way, we have scored 50 more runs as a team than those lonely Nationals, while batting a mere .008 points higher. And we are only 13 runs away from the top half of the NL. I am gonna take a while guess and say these 2 hitters have a big something to do with keeping us from being right down there with the Nationals. Even if they have a low BA, they have uch higher OBP which is a sign of pitchers fear/respect for them at the plate. If you take them out of the lineup pitchers are going to walk to the mound against our team confident they can throw a shutout everytime because there is no real "threat" in the lineup.

Fil3232
06-30-2008, 01:02 PM
You want to see a truly anemic offense? Take Dunn out of the Reds lineup. Scary.

GoReds33
06-30-2008, 02:34 PM
You want to see a truly anemic offense? Take Dunn out of the Reds lineup. Scary.Statistically yes. Still, a lineup that has Phillips, Votto, Bruce, Edwin, and Griffey has the potential to put up some runs. That's far from anemic, IMO.

durl
06-30-2008, 02:55 PM
No doubt! That is exactly what I was thinking when reading about how bad the Nats are.

I guess by that logic...if a team is the worst in history, then we should be OK with being the second worst team in history.

And the inference here is that the 2008 Reds are the 2nd worst team in history? Hardly.

Are they underperforming at the plate? You bet. No argument from me. I'm as frustrated as the next guy. However, I don't see how pointing the finger at 2 guys (who, for the Reds, are 3rd and 4th in Runs Scored; and 1st and 4th in RBIs) and pretending that getting rid of them will make the 6 other position players become better hitters.

This team can hit better, and should. Still, looking at the season as a whole, they're very close to the MLB average in OBP, SLG, and even Batting Average (14 points off the average).

Fil3232
06-30-2008, 03:12 PM
Statistically yes. Still, a lineup that has Phillips, Votto, Bruce, Edwin, and Griffey has the potential to put up some runs. That's far from anemic, IMO.

On paper and in theory, I agree.

My point is more towards the notion that removing the Reds most productive bat (Dunn) will somehow make, what most fans would describe as a below average offense, better.

44Magnum
06-30-2008, 03:54 PM
Dunn and Jr. drag the team down with more than there bats!

Once they are gone, everyone will see!

bgwilly31
06-30-2008, 04:04 PM
On paper and in theory, I agree.

My point is more towards the notion that removing the Reds most productive bat (Dunn) will somehow make, what most fans would describe as a below average offense, better.

I dont want DUNN out at this point.

Griffey should be off the team.

And yes removing griffey from the team WILL make the entire team play better, more focused, hard nosed baseball.

durl
06-30-2008, 04:27 PM
Dunn and Jr. drag the team down with more than there bats!

Once they are gone, everyone will see!

Your original point and the purpose of the thread was all about their batting average, now it's become some mysterious "more than there bats." If you have specific evidence to show how 2 of the Reds most productive hitters over the past 4-5 years make the other players worse, I'd love to see it so we can all discuss the merits.

Fil3232
06-30-2008, 04:40 PM
Your original point and the purpose of the thread was all about their batting average, now it's become some mysterious "more than there bats." If you have specific evidence to show how 2 of the Reds most productive hitters over the past 4-5 years make the other players worse, I'd love to see it so we can all discuss the merits.

Amen.

And I'm not holding my breath.

Ahhhorsepoo
06-30-2008, 04:42 PM
If you honestly think that dunn brings that much more to the dinner table than griffey you are sorely mistaken.. griffey is marginally better in the field.. and dunn is, at this point in griffs career, marginally better at the plate..

Griffey012
06-30-2008, 04:43 PM
I just wish we all could root for the players here, while they are here...with a strong homestand we are right back in the thick of the wild card, and most likely that wild card goes to the nl central. After all the entire division has dominated the rest of the NL. We also just finished 9-7 in interleague play while playing the Red Sox, Yankees, Blue Jays and Indians. Granted the Indiana kinda stink right now, but at least after the way Dunn played yesterday, you could just give him a day off.

Blue
06-30-2008, 04:55 PM
If you honestly think that dunn brings that much more to the dinner table than griffey you are sorely mistaken.. griffey is marginally better in the field.. and dunn is, at this point in griffs career, marginally better at the plate..

This is way off. Dunn is a far superior hitter and fielder to Griffey at this point. Its not even close.

OUReds
06-30-2008, 05:04 PM
If you honestly think that dunn brings that much more to the dinner table than griffey you are sorely mistaken.. griffey is marginally better in the field.. and dunn is, at this point in griffs career, marginally better at the plate..

From RedsManRick on the ORG comparing Reds' OPS by position to the league average.

Player OPS OPSL Diff
LF Dunn .896 .828 +.068
SS Kepp .820 .765 +.055
2B BP .802 .760 +.042
3B EE .794 .802 -.008
1B Votto .831 .848 -.017
RF Griffey .728 .798 -.070
C Bako .678 .783 -.105
CF CPatt .563 .743 -.180 (Bruce: .793, +.050)


Dunn is much better then Griffey in both absolute offensive terms and relative offensive production per position.

I am aware, however, that facts mean very little to you when it comes to Dunn.