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Kingspoint
06-30-2008, 08:12 PM
"Dusty hates walks. You have a bat. You need to be up there swinging."

And thus explains a lot.

mroby85
06-30-2008, 08:15 PM
who said this and where did it come from?

JWP
06-30-2008, 08:17 PM
"Dusty hates walks. You have a bat. You need to be up there swinging."

And thus explains a lot.

The Reds are 8th in the MLB in walks. Stop making blanket statements without checking their validity.

Blue
06-30-2008, 08:31 PM
The Reds are 8th in the MLB in walks. Stop making blanket statements without checking their validity.

Well, if he in fact hates walks, (and there is evidence that he doesn't like them), the measure of its effect isn't where they rank in MLB in walks, but where they would rank.

757690
06-30-2008, 08:43 PM
Dusty averaged 61 walks a season over his major league career. That's a lot of self loathing if you ask me.

He also managed Barry Bonds who lead the universe in walks for years.

I also heard that Dusty stopped beating his wife recently too.

JWP
06-30-2008, 09:09 PM
Well, if he in fact hates walks, (and there is evidence that he doesn't like them), the measure of its effect isn't where they rank in MLB in walks, but where they would rank.

How does that have nothing to do with it? If Dusty really "hates walks," it would make sense for the team to be walking, you know, less. The fact that they are one of the top 10 teams in baseball in walks shows the exact opposite.

The fact that Dusty wants players to be aggressive at the plate doesn't mean that he "hates walks." It just means that he doesn't want his players to sit back and take pitches; he doesn't want them to "look for a walk," so to speak. There is no evidence that he doesn't like walks, just evidence that he doesn't like players relying on walking too much to get on base. There's a world of difference.

Kingspoint
06-30-2008, 09:34 PM
The only reason they are 8th is because of Dunn and Dunn only. Dunn refuses to let Baker dictate to him to swing at more pitches. Remove the top guy from each team and the REDS would be below average.

TheBigLebowski
06-30-2008, 10:00 PM
The only reason they are 8th is because of Dunn and Dunn only. Dunn refuses to let Baker dictate to him to swing at more pitches. Remove the top guy from each team and the REDS would be below average.

There's certainly a lot to be upset about this season but, are you ever happy about anything? The stats fly in the face of this argument. Last post of yours that I remember reading was about Dusty and the Reds pitching Daryl Thompson into an early grave.

HeatherC1212
06-30-2008, 10:08 PM
I've come to the conclusion that the only way some people are happy here is when they're whining about something negative. It really makes this board a very unpleasant place to be. :thumbdown I prefer to just enjoy when the team wins a game rather than to dissect every single negative thing about the them. No team is perfect. Even the top teams aren't perfect. When my team is winning games though, I'm going to be happy about that game for that night and then I'm done with it and I move onto the next game and hope they win the next one.

And it's not just Dunn walking this year. Junior has walked a bunch, Edwin has walked, Joey has walked, and others players have walked too. Dunn is just getting the most walks which really isn't anything new.

Blue
06-30-2008, 10:14 PM
I've come to the conclusion that the only way some people are happy here is when they're whining about something negative.

I can assure you that the misery that it "Dusty, the manager" is in no way lessened by "whining" about it. Its hard to enjoy one game at a time when you know things like the 8th inning tonight are going to happen again and again and again unless he is given a perfect roster. If there's a mistake to be made, he'll find it. This is killing me. I am not happy.

mroby85
06-30-2008, 10:15 PM
I've come to the conclusion that the only way some people are happy here is when they're whining about something negative. It really makes this board a very unpleasant place to be. :thumbdown I prefer to just enjoy when the team wins a game rather than to dissect every single negative thing about the them. No team is perfect. Even the top teams aren't perfect. When my team is winning games though, I'm going to be happy about that game for that night and then I'm done with it and I move onto the next game and hope they win the next one.

And it's not just Dunn walking this year. Junior has walked a bunch, Edwin has walked, Joey has walked, and others players have walked too. Dunn is just getting the most walks which really isn't anything new.


couldn't have said it better myself.

HeatherC1212
06-30-2008, 10:19 PM
I can assure you that the misery that it "Dusty, the manager" is in no way lessened by "whining" about it. Its hard to enjoy one game at a time when you know things like the 8th inning tonight are going to happen again and again and again unless he is given a perfect roster. If there's a mistake to be made, he'll find it. This is killing me. I am not happy.

If you're so annoyed by the team right now, then WHY are you watching the games?!? I'm not trying to be flippant or anything but I seriously can't fathom someone being as upset or frustrated as you seem to be actually sitting and watching the games. That baffles me. :confused:

Blue
06-30-2008, 10:27 PM
If you're so annoyed by the team right now, then WHY are you watching the games?!? I'm not trying to be flippant or anything but I seriously can't fathom someone being as upset or frustrated as you seem to be actually sitting and watching the games. That baffles me. :confused:

I can't help it.

757690
06-30-2008, 10:29 PM
The only reason they are 8th is because of Dunn and Dunn only. Dunn refuses to let Baker dictate to him to swing at more pitches. Remove the top guy from each team and the REDS would be below average.

Okay, here are the results of what you asked for. I removed the top walk guy from every roster and here is what I found.

The Reds would have the 11th highest walk total among all 30 teams. They would have 247. That is above average for you keeping score.

Also, the average walk totals for teams minus their #1 walk guy is 232 and the Reds are 15 walks ahead of that, so again, they are better than average.

Case closed.

durl
06-30-2008, 10:42 PM
I've come to the conclusion that the only way some people are happy here is when they're whining about something negative. It really makes this board a very unpleasant place to be. :thumbdown I prefer to just enjoy when the team wins a game rather than to dissect every single negative thing about the them. No team is perfect. Even the top teams aren't perfect. When my team is winning games though, I'm going to be happy about that game for that night and then I'm done with it and I move onto the next game and hope they win the next one.

Thank you. Very well said.

Jr's Boy
07-01-2008, 12:53 AM
Geez this board could use a little Grande enthusiasm.;)

DannyB
07-01-2008, 05:41 AM
I've come to the conclusion that the only way some people are happy here is when they're whining about something negative. It really makes this board a very unpleasant place to be. :thumbdown I prefer to just enjoy when the team wins a game rather than to dissect every single negative thing about the them. No team is perfect. Even the top teams aren't perfect. When my team is winning games though, I'm going to be happy about that game for that night and then I'm done with it and I move onto the next game and hope they win the next one.

And it's not just Dunn walking this year. Junior has walked a bunch, Edwin has walked, Joey has walked, and others players have walked too. Dunn is just getting the most walks which really isn't anything new.

THANK YOU!! :thumbup:

BurgervilleBuck
07-01-2008, 08:29 AM
Well said, Heather.

And I'm still wondering who this former player was who said that Dusty hates walks.

markymark69
07-01-2008, 10:27 AM
Gang,

I think you would have to agree, no matter Dusty's opinion, the Reds take waaay too many good pitches and have for years. They are way to passive at the plate.

That is one of my pet peeves. I don't necessarily adhere to the swing at the first pitch theory, but hitting a straight ball is alot easier than hitting one with a hook or a bend to it.

Face it, any one of us can stand in the batter's box and take a called third strike.

Baseball at the major league level requires a lot of skill to play it successfully (the quote from Tom Hanks (Jimmy Dugan) in a League of Their Own is right on par, "baseball is supposed to be hard, if it wasn't hard everyone would do it, it's the hard that makes it great").

It is not hard to stand in the batter's box and watch a strike go past you into the catcher's mitt.

If that is what Dusty meant, than I agree wholeheartedly with him.

levydl
07-01-2008, 11:44 AM
Gang,

I think you would have to agree, no matter Dusty's opinion, the Reds take waaay too many good pitches and have for years. They are way to passive at the plate.

That is one of my pet peeves. I don't necessarily adhere to the swing at the first pitch theory, but hitting a straight ball is alot easier than hitting one with a hook or a bend to it.

Face it, any one of us can stand in the batter's box and take a called third strike.

Baseball at the major league level requires a lot of skill to play it successfully (the quote from Tom Hanks (Jimmy Dugan) in a League of Their Own is right on par, "baseball is supposed to be hard, if it wasn't hard everyone would do it, it's the hard that makes it great").

It is not hard to stand in the batter's box and watch a strike go past you into the catcher's mitt.

If that is what Dusty meant, than I agree wholeheartedly with him.

Maholm threw 89 pitches in 7 innings last night.

Redeye fly
07-01-2008, 11:51 AM
Yeah, I kind of get what you're saying markymark. But I'm also pretty sure Maholm was saying to himself "I hope the Reds keep swinging at the first pitch I throw up there".

Being aggressive, or impatient, depending on your view, didn't do a whole lot of good last night. Thankfully Harang and the pen did a decent job, and Jr. got a pitch he could do something with in the 9th. Up until then it was UGLY.

markymark69
07-01-2008, 02:19 PM
Let me clarify my point. Encarnacion struck out swinging, in the 6th inning I believe, on a nasty slider. The strike two pitch was right through the heart of the plate and he let it go by. That pitch is a much better pitch to hit than the nasty slider he got with two strikes on him.

Also, as a part of the point, how many times could a Reds hitter have fouled off a two-strike pitch (aka protect) instead of watching the third strike go by. By doing that you keep yourself alive, to perhaps get a better pitch and you increase the pitch count. Scott Hatteberg was great at doing that.

I'm not saying there is never a time to work the count. But to continually watch a third strike go into the catcher's mitt and trot back to the dugout helps nobody but the pitcher.

757690
07-01-2008, 02:35 PM
Let me clarify my point. Encarnacion struck out swinging, in the 6th inning I believe, on a nasty slider. The strike two pitch was right through the heart of the plate and he let it go by. That pitch is a much better pitch to hit than the nasty slider he got with two strikes on him.

Also, as a part of the point, how many times could a Reds hitter have fouled off a two-strike pitch (aka protect) instead of watching the third strike go by. By doing that you keep yourself alive, to perhaps get a better pitch and you increase the pitch count. Scott Hatteberg was great at doing that.

I'm not saying there is never a time to work the count. But to continually watch a third strike go into the catcher's mitt and trot back to the dugout helps nobody but the pitcher.

The key to hitting is not working the count, or swinging early, it is pitch recognition. Basically, you look for a pitch you know you can drive, and let all others pass, until you have two strikes. With two strikes you protect the plate, hoping to get a good pitch to hit, but swinging at anything close. Really good hitters can foul off pitches until they get a good one.

The problem Reds hitters have is pitch recognition. They swing at bad pitches and let good ones go.

markymark69
07-01-2008, 02:45 PM
The problem Reds hitters have is pitch recognition. They swing at bad pitches and let good ones go.


That is basically what I am trying to say. In my first post, I started by writing the Reds take way too many good pitches and most of the time get themselves out by swinging at the pitcher's pitch.

Thanks for helping me out.

levydl
07-01-2008, 02:48 PM
Let me clarify my point. Encarnacion struck out swinging, in the 6th inning I believe, on a nasty slider. The strike two pitch was right through the heart of the plate and he let it go by. That pitch is a much better pitch to hit than the nasty slider he got with two strikes on him.

Also, as a part of the point, how many times could a Reds hitter have fouled off a two-strike pitch (aka protect) instead of watching the third strike go by. By doing that you keep yourself alive, to perhaps get a better pitch and you increase the pitch count. Scott Hatteberg was great at doing that.

I'm not saying there is never a time to work the count. But to continually watch a third strike go into the catcher's mitt and trot back to the dugout helps nobody but the pitcher.

Scott Hatteberg is the epitome of working the count. The guy never swung at the first pitch. He was usually lowering his bat, taking a step out of the batter's box, and adjusting his gloves while the ball was halfway to the plate.

Over the long haul, the more pitches you see, the more of "your pitch(es)" you will get. Being selective at the plate accomplishes a lot of goals. Swining at the first pitch, as a philosophy, plays into the pitcher's hand, taking a long view of things.

markymark69
07-01-2008, 03:15 PM
Scott Hatteberg is the epitome of working the count. The guy never swung at the first pitch. He was usually lowering his bat, taking a step out of the batter's box, and adjusting his gloves while the ball was halfway to the plate.

Over the long haul, the more pitches you see, the more of "your pitch(es)" you will get. Being selective at the plate accomplishes a lot of goals. Swining at the first pitch, as a philosophy, plays into the pitcher's hand, taking a long view of things.

levydl, Just so we're clear. I never said swinging at the first pitch. I said the Reds take way too many good pitches, especially with two strikes. Aggressive does not mean swinging at the first pitch. If I misled you on that point, I apologize.

akron3344
07-01-2008, 04:10 PM
dusty baker is one of these retreads that gets bounced from job to job with conventional wisdom declaring that he is sagacious. He is one of these fossils that thinks he can discover hidden talent like corey patterson, why let the facts stand in the way of a propitious fantasy

Blue
07-01-2008, 05:38 PM
Gang,

I think you would have to agree, no matter Dusty's opinion, the Reds take waaay too many good pitches and have for years. They are way to passive at the plate.

That is one of my pet peeves. I don't necessarily adhere to the swing at the first pitch theory, but hitting a straight ball is alot easier than hitting one with a hook or a bend to it.

Face it, any one of us can stand in the batter's box and take a called third strike.

Baseball at the major league level requires a lot of skill to play it successfully (the quote from Tom Hanks (Jimmy Dugan) in a League of Their Own is right on par, "baseball is supposed to be hard, if it wasn't hard everyone would do it, it's the hard that makes it great").

It is not hard to stand in the batter's box and watch a strike go past you into the catcher's mitt.

If that is what Dusty meant, than I agree wholeheartedly with him.

I don't think a guy who thinks "clogging the bases isn't all that great" is talking about the same thing you are.

JWP
07-01-2008, 05:50 PM
dusty baker is one of these retreads that gets bounced from job to job with conventional wisdom declaring that he is sagacious. He is one of these fossils that thinks he can discover hidden talent like corey patterson, why let the facts stand in the way of a propitious fantasy

Dusty Baker has been a proven winner over the course of his managerial career. There is no "fantasy" here. The Reds, like any other team when choosing a manager, picked someone who has won in the past.

Do I agree with everything Baker does? Far, far from it. I can't even say with certainty that I support the choice to hire him. What I can say with certainty is that everything cannot fall in his lap. A good manager can't do anything with a bad team on the field. Look at Lou Pinella's tenure in Tampa Bay, he never won 70 games there. Now look at his success with the Cubs. See what a difference having consistent players makes? I'll give you a hint: it's a big one.


Furthermore, Dusty haters like yourself, those who refuse to give Dusty credit for anything because of your fallacious misconceptions about him, have failed to see how many of those misconceptions have been proven wrong THIS SEASON. First, it was "Dusty will run our young pitchers into the ground!" He's handled Volquez, Cueto, Thompson and Bailey beautifully in terms of their workloads. Next it was "Dusty hates walks!" That was proven false in this thread. Then it was "Dusty hates young players. He won't play all of our promising young position players!" Joey Votto, Jay Bruce, Edwin Encarnacion, and Jeff Keppinger would beg to differ.

Dusty may not be a perfect manager, but the Reds are a bad baseball team. I don't care who the Reds hired, they would be in the same situation.

Blue
07-01-2008, 05:58 PM
Dusty Baker has been a proven winner over the course of his managerial career. There is no "fantasy" here. The Reds, like any other team when choosing a manager, picked someone who has won in the past.

Do I agree with everything Baker does? Far, far from it. I can't even say with certainty that I support the choice to hire him. What I can say with certainty is that everything cannot fall in his lap. A good manager can't do anything with a bad team on the field. Look at Lou Pinella's tenure in Tampa Bay, he never won 70 games there. Now look at his success with the Cubs. See what a difference having consistent players makes? I'll give you a hint: it's a big one.


Furthermore, Dusty haters like yourself, those who refuse to give Dusty credit for anything because of your fallacious misconceptions about him, have failed to see how many of those misconceptions have been proven wrong THIS SEASON. First, it was "Dusty will run our young pitchers into the ground!" He's handled Volquez, Cueto, Thompson and Bailey beautifully in terms of their workloads. Next it was "Dusty hates walks!" That was proven false in this thread. Then it was "Dusty hates young players. He won't play all of our promising young position players!" Joey Votto, Jay Bruce, Edwin Encarnacion, and Jeff Keppinger would beg to differ.

Dusty may not be a perfect manager, but the Reds are a bad baseball team. I don't care who the Reds hired, they would be in the same situation.

Okay, then. You can move on to trying to explain his stupid game management. You're right about one thing, it is the players that make the difference. The players have to be good enough to overcome his incompetence.

JWP
07-01-2008, 06:07 PM
Okay, then. You can move on to trying to explain his stupid game management. You're right about one thing, it is the players that make the difference. The players have to be good enough to overcome his incompetence.

As I said, I don't agree with Dusty Baker most of the time. I agree that his micromanagement skills are severely lacking. My beef is with people blaming him for every speed bump that this team encounters. I see people blaming Dusty Baker when the entire Reds lineup gets baffled by a pitcher making a spot start from AA because he decided to bat Corey Patterson leadoff.

I have no problem with rational arguments against Dusty Baker, none at all. What I have a problem with is people who throw out the word of the day to discredit Baker, and who try to diminish his successes as a manager no matter what he does. I don't see how anyone can look at this organization and say that Dusty Baker is the biggest problem.

I agree, in terms of micromanagement, he's not very good (Votto bunting? lol). Your arguments seem rational, but those like the one I was commenting on in my previous post really drive me crazy.

Blue
07-01-2008, 06:11 PM
As I said, I don't agree with Dusty Baker most of the time. I agree that his micromanagement skills are severely lacking. My beef is with people blaming him for every speed bump that this team encounters. I see people blaming Dusty Baker when the entire Reds lineup gets baffled by a pitcher making a spot start from AA because he decided to bat Corey Patterson leadoff.

I have no problem with rational arguments against Dusty Baker, none at all. What I have a problem with is people who throw out the word of the day to discredit Baker, and who try to diminish his successes as a manager no matter what he does. I don't see how anyone can look at this organization and say that Dusty Baker is the biggest problem.

I agree, in terms of micromanagement, he's not very good (Votto bunting? lol). Your arguments seem rational, but those like the one I was commenting on in my previous post really drive me crazy.

Biggest problem? No. Easiest problem to fix? Yes.

This team stinks no matter who the manager is. There will be much more gnashing of teeth when this team is ready to win and he is holding it back.

gedred69
07-01-2008, 07:45 PM
I got no problem with a Manager expecting Hitters to swing. (Thus my problem with Dunn, power hitters get good numbers from hitting the ball, not waiting to walk). I do have a problem with stupid swings, as so many of this current team have penchant to do. I'm not sold on Dusty as a fan, but dang, see the ball hit the ball.

Kingspoint
07-01-2008, 09:57 PM
I've come to the conclusion that the only way some people are happy here is when they're whining about something negative. It really makes this board a very unpleasant place to be. :thumbdown I prefer to just enjoy when the team wins a game rather than to dissect every single negative thing about the them. No team is perfect. Even the top teams aren't perfect. When my team is winning games though, I'm going to be happy about that game for that night and then I'm done with it and I move onto the next game and hope they win the next one.

And it's not just Dunn walking this year. Junior has walked a bunch, Edwin has walked, Joey has walked, and others players have walked too. Dunn is just getting the most walks which really isn't anything new.


The only complaining going on in this thread is that many of you complained that a quote from one of Dusty's ex-players wasn't to your liking. Yet even though there isn't one complaint from me in this thread you decide it's OK to complain about me. How ironic?

I was just passing on what I thought was a very interesting comment. And if you knew more about Dusty's history and the training that he received under Roger Craig for 5 years in San Francisco and also the relationship he had with Craig while he was a Dodger, then you'd have more to think about instead of just "complaining about the ex-player's comments.

:thumbdown

Many people on this thread took it for what it was...an idea for a topic about hitting philosophy.

757690
07-01-2008, 10:10 PM
The only complaining going on in this thread is that many of you complained that a quote from one of Dusty's ex-players wasn't to your liking. Yet even though there isn't one complaint from me in this thread you decide it's OK to complain about me. How ironic?
[/B]


"Dusty hates walks. You have a bat. You need to be up there swinging."

And thus explains a lot.

Looks like a complaint to me. Are you saying that this quote explains why you are happy with the Red's hitters approach to hitting?

And no one complained that the quote wasn't to their liking, they complained that the quote was either inaccurate or false.

Lockdwn11
07-01-2008, 11:09 PM
Who is the ex-player and in what context was the quote made? Do you have a link to this quote?

Kingspoint
07-01-2008, 11:13 PM
I see people blaming Dusty Baker when the entire Reds lineup gets baffled by a pitcher making a spot start from AA because he decided to bat Corey Patterson leadoff.



Another fine Corey Patterson moment tonight.


No Dusty Baker.

No Corey Patterson.

Lockdwn11
07-01-2008, 11:17 PM
No link I take it

HeatherC1212
07-01-2008, 11:33 PM
The only complaining going on in this thread is that many of you complained that a quote from one of Dusty's ex-players wasn't to your liking. Yet even though there isn't one complaint from me in this thread you decide it's OK to complain about me. How ironic?

I was just passing on what I thought was a very interesting comment. And if you knew more about Dusty's history and the training that he received under Roger Craig for 5 years in San Francisco and also the relationship he had with Craig while he was a Dodger, then you'd have more to think about instead of just "complaining about the ex-player's comments.

:thumbdown

Many people on this thread took it for what it was...an idea for a topic about hitting philosophy.

Excuse me?! I didn't respond to you directly at all. If you intended to start a discussion about hitting, then maybe you should have started one in the first place. I was commenting more in general about how this board has been extremely negative lately about just about everything even when the team is winning games. Your post did come across as negative to me but I said nothing about or to you at all. It really annoys me to come to this board after a Reds win hoping to talk about some of the good things in the game and instead seeing all these threads with all the things that are negative. I don't even come here very often anymore because of it and I really like this board. I think it's the best Reds board out there but I can only take so much negativity when I'm trying to see the positives in a otherwise disappointing season. I know the team isn't perfect but why is everything negative all the time? I do not understand how people cannot just enjoy a win, especially since they can be so hard to come by for this team. :thumbdown