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View Full Version : Dunn removed in close game, Dusty strikes again



Blue
07-01-2008, 11:18 PM
Its extremely stupid to remove Dunn for a pinch runner in a close game unless the situation is a tied game in the bottom of the 9th, and Dunn is on second base with less than two outs... and maybe just with no outs. It has happened repeatedly this season and has repeatedly come back to bite the Reds by the time the last out is made. How many more times must this happen before Dusty realizes this hurts the team? It should have never happened at all, but instead it just keeps happening! Seriously, does this guy ever learn?!?!

mroby85
07-01-2008, 11:26 PM
Just what was needed, another Dusty thread :rolleyes:

757690
07-01-2008, 11:28 PM
I usually hate when Dusty removes Dunn, but that is the smart play in that situation.

You have to score the tying run first, and then worry about who is batting where later.
Dunn probably would have scored anyway, but there is no way to know what would have happened in that inning. You can't think backwards like that. The only way to judge strategy is to ask what was the best thing to do at the time the move was made. Dunn is a below average baserunner, and he represents the tying run. I would pinch run for him every time.

You have to put yourself in the best situation to tie the game first and foremost.

There were a ton of reasons why the Reds lost this game, bad umpiring, bad base running, bad pitching, bad defense. It is beyond absurd to blame this loss on Dusty.
I promise you that if I watched every Red Sox game or every Braves game, I could find just as many "mistakes" with Francona and and Cox as you do with Dusty. Finding single decisions in every game by a manager that don't pan out is as fool's errand.

keeganbrick
07-01-2008, 11:33 PM
It seemed like a close call at the time, really sucks came down to Patterson being the last out. Whats even more pathetic is we have 2 good bullpen arms, then everything else you just pray when they come into the game besides Bill Bray but for some reason he is only used as a situational lefty which needs to stop. Im thankful for what Weathers did last year but his time has passed, he needs to go now. Ill give Majewski a little longer but he really doesnt look that much better either. DFA Weathers and bring up Roenicke or if he still isnt ready bring back Herrera and have him do Bray's job as a situational lefty and make Bray a full time 7th inning guy.

Blue
07-01-2008, 11:39 PM
I usually hate when Dusty removes Dunn, but that is the smart play in that situation.

You have to score the tying run first, and then worry about who is batting where later.
Dunn probably would have scored anyway, but there is no way to know what would have happened in that inning. You can't think backwards like that. The only way to judge strategy is to ask what was the best thing to do at the time the move was made. Dunn is a below average baserunner, and he represents the tying run. I would pinch run for him every time.

You have to put yourself in the best situation to tie the game first and foremost.

There were a ton of reasons why the Reds lost this game, bad umpiring, bad base running, bad pitching, bad defense. It is beyond absurd to blame this loss on Dusty.
I promise you that if I watched every Red Sox game or every Braves game, I could find just as many "mistakes" with Francona and and Cox as you do with Dusty. Finding single decisions in every game by a manager that don't pan out is as fool's errand.

I disagree 100% about it being the right decision. With no one out, it doesn't even take a hit to score the runner from second base. If there is a hit and its going to be close at all you don't send the runner home. No need for a speedy runner. You can go station to station and still score without getting a hit.

Of course you can't pin a loss on any one person or any one decision. But you can attribute parts of losses to individuals. This particular mistake is starting to add up. Then there are all the other mistakes.

You might pinch run for him every time, but it would be wrong EVERY TIME.

About Francona and Cox... bull.

durl
07-02-2008, 12:04 AM
I thought it was an unusual choice. With no one out, I thought they would have left Dunn in.

RedsFanInBama
07-02-2008, 12:15 AM
I disagree 100% about it being the right decision. With no one out, it doesn't even take a hit to score the runner from second base. If there is a hit and its going to be close at all you don't send the runner home. No need for a speedy runner. You can go station to station and still score without getting a hit.

Of course you can't pin a loss on any one person or any one decision. But you can attribute parts of losses to individuals. This particular mistake is starting to add up. Then there are all the other mistakes.

You might pinch run for him every time, but it would be wrong EVERY TIME.

About Francona and Cox... bull.

I thought it was a good move. I don't care how many outs there are, this team has proven to be downright pitiful at scoring runners. You have to get someone in there that can score on any hit to the outfield, because with this team, a runner on third base and nobody out means very little. A runner on second and nobody out means even less.

The biggest questionable move in this game was sitting Keppinger instead of one of our trio of outfielders. Of course EE getting run got him into the game anyway, but that was just stupid.

Ahhhorsepoo
07-02-2008, 09:14 AM
I disagree 100% about it being the right decision. With no one out, it doesn't even take a hit to score the runner from second base. If there is a hit and its going to be close at all you don't send the runner home. No need for a speedy runner. You can go station to station and still score without getting a hit.

Of course you can't pin a loss on any one person or any one decision. But you can attribute parts of losses to individuals. This particular mistake is starting to add up. Then there are all the other mistakes.

You might pinch run for him every time, but it would be wrong EVERY TIME.

About Francona and Cox... bull.

You must not watch the reds very often.. they pretty much all suck at sacrifice anythings.. and the only way someone from second would score.. in 90% of the reds situations is a hit.. and a single would score patterson.. while dunn.... NO CHANCE.. If you do tie it then you have an immediate upgrade in the field too.. Everyones hatred for corey patterson completely blinds the fact that there are a few things he does good if not very well.. I.E. base running and defense.. at that point they wanted to win it.. I am sure dusty wanted to win it far before patterson would have come back up.. so him being the last at bat shouldnt have even been an issue.. the other thing.. Dunn batted .161 in the last month.. hardly a far cry better than patterson is right now... whats to say dunn wouldnt have struck out looking and then not even had a chance for a can o corn turning into an error?! c'mon people quit thinking everything dusty does is bad.. the man hasnt been MLB manager of the year for nothing..

Griffey012
07-02-2008, 09:21 AM
CPatt has the speed to score on a lot more plays then Dunn, no knock on Dunn, CPatt is just faster. And why take the chance, if with 0 outs you get a bloop single and Dunn cant score and CPatt would, you are still down by 1 run and you know this teams inability to get the run in from 3rd base. What it comes down to is the players not executing when having the oppurtunities many times in the game with men on base, the bullpen didn't pitch well in extra. This loss was not on Dusty, sometimes it is the players fault. I felt this was one of the better managed games by Dusty all season, we just didnt win.

Caveman Techie
07-02-2008, 10:48 AM
I disagree with you Blue, that was the right move to make last night at that time. I honestly think if Dusty doesn't pinch run for Dunn in that situation last night you would of started a thread titled "Dunn runs for himself in a close game, Dusty strikes again".

improbus
07-02-2008, 11:16 AM
I thought it was a good move. I don't care how many outs there are, this team has proven to be downright pitiful at scoring runners. You have to get someone in there that can score on any hit to the outfield, because with this team, a runner on third base and nobody out means very little. A runner on second and nobody out means even less.


Exactly. The Reds also had a bases loaded with no outs and only got one run on a near double play.

Jack Burton
07-02-2008, 11:34 AM
Remind me why Patterson still has a spot on this team?

tommycash
07-02-2008, 11:34 AM
With the way the Reds are scoring this year, this was the move I would have made. You have to tie the game first. Even with no outs, too. Look at when the Reds had the bases loaded earlier in the game with no outs. They only got one run out of it. I am not a Dusty fan, but he made the right choice here.

Fon Duc Tow
07-02-2008, 12:03 PM
I can't fault Dusty for this one... Sucks that it ended up coming down to Patterson in the end, but it was the right move to make at the time.

lidspinner
07-02-2008, 01:07 PM
I see both sides to the situation but I hav to agree with the thread starter....you dont need a speedy runner on 2nd with no outs. with 2 outs, you do it everytime. I am not saying it was a bad move I am just saying it was bad to put CP in that spot. Sure, Corey can flat out fly but I dont want that guy anywhere near the plate unless its to walk up ther ewithout a bat and hop for a walk.

And I hate to start an argument, that is not my intentions at all with this next comment but I watch about 4 games a day minumum. I usually throw a boston game in as much as possible and i will say without a doubt that Dusty makes more mistakes in a 4 game series than terry does in half a season. I cannot speak as much for Bobby since I only see about 1 game a week of theirs but Bobby dont make many mistakes....I will say this about Cox....if his guy looks as out of place as Votto did on a bunt attemp, that guy would get a chewing as he goes through the dugout. Bobby is a players coach just as Dusty is but Bobby hates his guys not being able to do the fundamentals. I heard a story from one of the reds scouts about Bobby Cox tellling A. Jones to hit the showers after he couldnt lay a bunt down....priceless story and I wish Dusty has a little fire like that.

mound_patrol
07-02-2008, 01:18 PM
I dont pinch run for him there. I wouldn't ever pinch run for a guy on second in any situation. With less than two outs you can stop him at third if the fielder has the ball before he touches third. If it's two outs the runner will be moving on contact and should score no problem.

markymark69
07-02-2008, 01:38 PM
I can't fault Dusty for this one... Sucks that it ended up coming down to Patterson in the end, but it was the right move to make at the time.

Agree with you on this one.

Didn't Pete Mackanin remove Dunn late in games last year during his stint as manager? I think most people agreed with the move when Mack made it. There was no Patterson on the team last year, but there was no way to know that Patterson was going to be up in that situation two innings later.

757690
07-02-2008, 04:57 PM
I see both sides to the situation but I hav to agree with the thread starter....you dont need a speedy runner on 2nd with no outs. with 2 outs, you do it everytime. I am not saying it was a bad move I am just saying it was bad to put CP in that spot. Sure, Corey can flat out fly but I dont want that guy anywhere near the plate unless its to walk up ther ewithout a bat and hop for a walk.

And I hate to start an argument, that is not my intentions at all with this next comment but I watch about 4 games a day minumum. I usually throw a boston game in as much as possible and i will say without a doubt that Dusty makes more mistakes in a 4 game series than terry does in half a season. I cannot speak as much for Bobby since I only see about 1 game a week of theirs but Bobby dont make many mistakes....I will say this about Cox....if his guy looks as out of place as Votto did on a bunt attemp, that guy would get a chewing as he goes through the dugout. Bobby is a players coach just as Dusty is but Bobby hates his guys not being able to do the fundamentals. I heard a story from one of the reds scouts about Bobby Cox tellling A. Jones to hit the showers after he couldnt lay a bunt down....priceless story and I wish Dusty has a little fire like that.

My point was not that dusty is as good a manager as francona or cox, he is not. My point was that I could find mistakes that any manager makes in every game that are as petty as the ones that certain posters point out on this board. A manager makes over 100 decisions a game. It is easy to cherry pick a few that didn't work out and b*itch about them.
My brother lives in boston, so I watch nearly every red sox game I can, and I will just have to repectively disagree with you. Francona makes plenty of ffrustrating decisions. Just go to Sonosamhorn.com and read what they say. They rip into every decision Francona makes just like people on this board do with dusty. Like I siad, it is really easy to do with any manager. That is my point.

RedsFanInBama
07-02-2008, 06:05 PM
Baseball is the ultimate second-guessing sport. If you don't like a manager, you can find a flaw in pretty much any decision made. If you like a manager, you can find justification for any move he makes. That's the nature of the game.