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View Full Version : How is David Weathers still in MLB?



44Magnum
07-02-2008, 09:09 AM
The man is way past done!

Root Down
07-02-2008, 09:45 AM
He's had some real good outings before last night! I must say that I don't think he's washed up. Two nights ago there were three scouts at the game watching only Weathers.

durl
07-02-2008, 10:03 AM
Because, for the month of June, he pitched 14 innings with an ERA of 1.93 with 7 Ks and only 1 BB.

I'd call that good pitching.

I have to ask, do you really look at the stats before you rip players?

44Magnum
07-02-2008, 10:12 AM
The man is in trouble nearly every game he pitches in. He probably gives up at least one run per appearance in at least 50% of his games.

Ahhhorsepoo
07-02-2008, 10:18 AM
his stats say that is not the case magnum.. except for when he is at home.. when we see him the most.. just upsets me that we let salmon and coutlangus go.. and kept weathers and merker.. those young guys couldnt have been worse than these guys.. and are far more moldable into big league players..

44Magnum
07-02-2008, 10:20 AM
The man has given up at least 1 run in 33% of his appearances.
He has give up at least 1 hit in 64% of his appearances, which is terrible when you consider his appearances average less than 1 inning per.
He has pitched 32.1 innings and given up 15 earned runs.

That is terrible! :thumbdown

durl
07-02-2008, 10:28 AM
The man is in trouble nearly every game he pitches in. He probably gives up at least one run per appearance in at least 50% of his games.

Not quite.

His trend was very good over June. 14 appearances and 3 earned runs. That included appearances against the Yankees, Red Sox, Cards, Florida, and Philadelphia.

For 2008, Weathers allows a run in 46% of innings pitched. CC Sabathia allows a run in 42%. Roy Oswalt allows a run in 51%. Ted Lilly does 51% of innings pitched.

durl
07-02-2008, 10:30 AM
The man has given up at least 1 run in 33% of his appearances.
He has give up at least 1 hit in 64% of his appearances, which is terrible when you consider his appearances average less than 1 inning per.
He has pitched 32.1 innings and given up 15 earned runs.

That is terrible! :thumbdown

You're ignoring the fact that he's improved as the season has progressed.

His total numbers do need to look better, I'll grant you that. However, an ERA under 2 in his last 14 appearances is VERY good.

flash
07-02-2008, 10:59 AM
Salmon is currently with the Omaha Royals pitching a 4+ ERA. Coutlangus is at Tucson with a 15+ ERA. He also is on the disable list. How could they have helped the Reds.

StrikeIndicator
07-02-2008, 11:15 AM
his stats say that is not the case magnum.. except for when he is at home.. when we see him the most.. just upsets me that we let salmon and coutlangus go.. and kept weathers and merker.. those young guys couldnt have been worse than these guys.. and are far more moldable into big league players..

The problem is they never let the mature young guys in the pen have a chance.

And when they did, David Ross would hang them out to dry calling for outside pitches so he could get the jump on guys trying to steal 2nd. With that info in every scouting report, hitters just sat back and waited for their pitch. runner ended up on third or scored.

Veterans in the pen ALWAYS seem to get not only the benefit of the doubt but they get the 1st, 2nd and 3rd call from MLB clubs. As long as you have options, you have nothing.

Look at Tomko. Stunk as a starter with the Royals, moved to the pen where he stunk that up too, clears waivers and ends up in the pen for the Padres.

Trust me, if the Reds cut DW, he would be in another bullpen as soon as he cleared waivers at the latest.

PS
I know guys who have pitched with him and by all reports he brings alot more to the clubhouse and the community than what you see on the mound. He is a solid citizen and all around good guy.

Grounds_Crew
07-02-2008, 11:36 AM
Consider this...

Maybe you guys are using his as the scape goat and finding an easy way to place blame...


Oh how soon we forget.
Weathers had a bad game last night. Horrific.
Yet he had the 2nd best ERA on the team in June.... 1.98 in 14 games.
And he had the best percentage of preventing inherited runners from scoring on the team entering last night.....allowing just 1 of 11 runners to score: 9%
For comparison
Cordero 7 of 9 inherited runners scored (78%)
Burton 6 of 14 (43%)
Bray 8 of 19 (42%)
Affeldt 10 of 29 (34%)
Lincoln 8 of 26 (31%)
Also....Weathers had retired the first batter faced 63% of the time.....Cordero 51%
And one year ago Weathers saved 33 of 39 games....85%
Cordero has saved 15 of 18 games.....83%
Weathers bring something this team needs more of....professionalism and accountability.
I'll be sad to see him go in the next couple of weeks.

durl
07-02-2008, 11:53 AM
Excellent stats, Grounds Crew. You did a great job of answering the OP's question. Facts are a wonderful thing to counter our impressions.

Grounds_Crew
07-02-2008, 11:54 AM
I can't take the credit for those stats...I pulled those from Lance McAlister's blog.

tommycash
07-02-2008, 12:23 PM
Stats can be a bit deceiving in this case. (Just a bit). On June 25 Weathers came in and blew a save without giving up any ER at all. He just came in and allowed 4 hits. But it you only look at a relievers ERA, instead of taking into effect that people actually watch games and see batters hit Weathers hard, you may come up with an assumption that because Weathers hasn't given up a run in a while means that he is actually getting better. Weathers is a lifetime mediocre reliever who has happened to have a couple of better than average (for him) seasons with the Reds. I see him as a 41 year old man who will never have a end of season sub 4 ERA anymore because he simply gives up too many hits (guys are hitting .288 against him this year). If batters continue to hit that against him (and if you watch Weathers play this year you know they will), his ERA will go up and numbers only guys will turn on him too.

Jack Burton
07-02-2008, 12:42 PM
Stats can be a bit deceiving in this case. (Just a bit). On June 25 Weathers came in and blew a save without giving up any ER at all. He just came in and allowed 4 hits. But it you only look at a relievers ERA, instead of taking into effect that people actually watch games and see batters hit Weathers hard, you may come up with an assumption that because Weathers hasn't given up a run in a while means that he is actually getting better. Weathers is a lifetime mediocre reliever who has happened to have a couple of better than average (for him) seasons with the Reds. I see him as a 41 year old man who will never have a end of season sub 4 ERA anymore because he simply gives up too many hits (guys are hitting .288 against him this year). If batters continue to hit that against him (and if you watch Weathers play this year you know they will), his ERA will go up and numbers only guys will turn on him too.
This about sums it up. Weathers should never be used in close games, only mop up duty. Move him if we can get anything, but by the sound of things in this thread we should get our pick of prospects. C'mon.

durl
07-02-2008, 03:06 PM
Stats can be a bit deceiving in this case. (Just a bit). On June 25 Weathers came in and blew a save without giving up any ER at all. He just came in and allowed 4 hits. But it you only look at a relievers ERA, instead of taking into effect that people actually watch games and see batters hit Weathers hard, you may come up with an assumption that because Weathers hasn't given up a run in a while means that he is actually getting better. Weathers is a lifetime mediocre reliever who has happened to have a couple of better than average (for him) seasons with the Reds. I see him as a 41 year old man who will never have a end of season sub 4 ERA anymore because he simply gives up too many hits (guys are hitting .288 against him this year). If batters continue to hit that against him (and if you watch Weathers play this year you know they will), his ERA will go up and numbers only guys will turn on him too.

Sometimes stats can overlook nuances. Even so, ignoring stats in many cases means you depend on inaccurate prejudices or incorrect assumptions.

Weathers managed to blow a save without giving up a run, but he's only blown 2 all year. His lifetime stats and age aside, lately he has been an extremely reliable reliever who has done what he's supposed to do as a reliever, and doing it better than almost any other pitcher in the bullpen.

Weather's isn't a long-term solution for the Reds and I'm sure he knows it. But if he were to continue to pitch this well for the rest of the year, he will be an incredible asset to the team. The OP said Weathers doesn't belong in baseball. His accomplishments as of late show that he does.

44Magnum
07-02-2008, 05:18 PM
Sometimes stats can overlook nuances. Even so, ignoring stats in many cases means you depend on inaccurate prejudices or incorrect assumptions.

Weathers managed to blow a save without giving up a run, but he's only blown 2 all year. His lifetime stats and age aside, lately he has been an extremely reliable reliever who has done what he's supposed to do as a reliever, and doing it better than almost any other pitcher in the bullpen.

Weather's isn't a long-term solution for the Reds and I'm sure he knows it. But if he were to continue to pitch this well for the rest of the year, he will be an incredible asset to the team. The OP said Weathers doesn't belong in baseball. His accomplishments as of late show that he does.

Wow! Some people are easy to please. Anyone happy with Weathers is obviously a relative of his.

durl
07-03-2008, 12:04 AM
Yep. I'm easy to please. I'm one of those crazy guys who thinks a 1.93 ERA for the month of June is good. And a reliever who allows less that 10% of inherited runners to score for a month? I'm just wacky enough to think that's a good thing.

It's obvious you pick a player a day to bash regardless of their positive contributions.

tommycash
07-03-2008, 12:06 AM
I don't think I can overlook how many hits he gives up. Thanks for the last 3 seasons, but I think it is time for him to go elsewhere.

44Magnum
07-03-2008, 10:12 AM
Yep. I'm easy to please. I'm one of those crazy guys who thinks a 1.93 ERA for the month of June is good. And a reliever who allows less that 10% of inherited runners to score for a month? I'm just wacky enough to think that's a good thing.

It's obvious you pick a player a day to bash regardless of their positive contributions.

Nope. I just tell it like it is. I don't wear rosey-red colored glasses.

durl
07-03-2008, 12:54 PM
Nope. I just tell it like it is. I don't wear rosey-red colored glasses.

It's one thing to "tell it like it is" and another to, on a daily basis, come up with ways to demean every person who works with the Reds organization. I believe everyone should express their opinion, but I would hope that it would be grounded in fact and tactfully expressed.

mroby85
07-03-2008, 01:02 PM
Yep. I'm easy to please. I'm one of those crazy guys who thinks a 1.93 ERA for the month of June is good. And a reliever who allows less that 10% of inherited runners to score for a month? I'm just wacky enough to think that's a good thing.

It's obvious you pick a player a day to bash regardless of their positive contributions.


I'm one of those crazy guys that looks at the whole season instead of a short stint he's had recently, and see's a .370 opp. BA, and that was before he got torched. David Weathers is chasing Ted Williams!!:D

Lockdwn11
07-03-2008, 01:15 PM
Nope. I just tell it like it is. I don't wear rosey-red colored glasses.

44Magnum should just go ahead and change his/her name to Debie Downer and get it over with

durl
07-03-2008, 04:06 PM
I'm one of those crazy guys that looks at the whole season instead of a short stint he's had recently, and see's a .370 opp. BA, and that was before he got torched. David Weathers is chasing Ted Williams!!:D

I'm with you...partially. I think we should look at several factors together in order to get the best idea of a player's potential. We can look at the past 2-3 seasons, the current year, and the current month. The past 2-3 years give us an idea of their overall performance. The current year gives us a more recent trend, and the current month shows a what type of rhythm they may be in.

Do I believe that Weathers can have a season ERA of 1.90 based upon his last month? No, because his longer trend shows me otherwise. Still, if a guy is pitching well over the course of 4-5 weeks, that shows me that he's in a groove and I'll stick with it while I can.

Batters are hitting .288 against him this year but I can also look back and see that in the previous 4 seasons, they hit .233, .226, .242, and .232 against him. The man saved 33 games last year at the age of 37. Certainly age is going to cause him to be less effective and Weathers is near the end of his playing days. Even so, I wonder if adjusting to his new role has been a factor on his diminished performance.

I don't believe Weathers is going to be very effective much longer and he's definitely on his way out. But he's also been more reliable that a lot of other relievers the Reds have put on the mound over the past few years.