View Full Version : Why can't we do what the Rays are doing?

07-02-2008, 03:44 PM
At this point, I'm all for a firesale. Anyone of worth we can trade and get prospects for, I'm down for - except the big four of course of Votto, Bruce, Volquez, and Cueto.

Tampa Bay is tearing it up with the second lowest payroll in the majors. I think we need to get younger and cheaper. I wouldn't be opposed to draining the payroll down to a low point, rather than taking the money we would invest in crapshoot free agents and reinvesting it into the minors. Whoever is Tampa's scouting team, give them a raise and sign them in here. Invest money in getting the most reputable hitting coaches- not just in the majors, but in the minors as well. Invest a ton in the draft.

It's amazing that Tampa has done this. Not only Tampa, but the Marlins -and TWICE. Yet, we're setting here just hoping someone comes up, and have a ton of money invested in players who aren't going to get us anywhere.This for the past 13 years trying to make the playoffs.

I'm just tired of hanging onto guys and investing money in questionable signings and overpaying for guys. While people want us to make a huge splash in free agency this year, I think that would be a mistake to put money into pitchers who have mediocre stats and overpay for them. It's time to go the Florida route and start building from within.

07-02-2008, 04:35 PM
I agree, even though we have all struggled through 13 years of no playoff baseball, the Reds have never actually committed to rebuilding. It needs to be done

07-02-2008, 05:03 PM
I figure 20 other teams are wondering the same thing.

The first time Florida did it, they couldn't afford to keep everyone.

The Rockies did it last year, but it sure looks like it won't repeat itself.

07-02-2008, 05:12 PM
Because we have not had the #1 overall pick for the better part of the last ten years

07-02-2008, 05:16 PM
I was at a Rays game the other night while on vacation and got a good chance to look over their roster and talk with some season ticket holders. They said that they have several guys having career years, a few horses in the rotation (Shields and Kazmir), some young guys that have been contributing (Garza) and some up and coming position players (Longoria, Upton, etc.). The Reds need to sell off the expensive contracts and go with the youth movement. If needed, you can always get some veterans at the trade deadline if you're in the race.

07-02-2008, 05:32 PM
I agree that for the Reds to be succesful as a small market team they need to invest heavily in scouting, coaching and player development.

I do however disagree that the Rays have the blueprint of how to do it. The Rays this season are a confluence of 2 things

1.) a great farm system from 10 years of picking in the top 5 of the draft as well as getting prospects from trading away every decent player once they hit arbitration.

2.) Guys off the trash heap having career years. Have you seen the stats of their bullpen guys from last year to this year?

I will not be surprised if they are not back in the toilet next year.

I would prefer to build along the lines of what Minnesota does where you lock up good young players to reasonable long term contracts and have a strong farm system to supplement when you lose guys.

07-02-2008, 05:39 PM
they will follow the marlins pattern.. good for one year.. TERRIBLE for 4.. if you want that.. great..

07-02-2008, 05:42 PM
they will follow the marlins pattern.. good for one year.. TERRIBLE for 4.. if you want that.. great..

better than terrible for 10, good for none i guess :D

07-02-2008, 05:45 PM
they will follow the marlins pattern.. good for one year.. TERRIBLE for 4.. if you want that.. great..

We have an 70-80 million dollar payroll year in and out, we have the money to retain a few of the studs, and not ship everyone out once they are good.

07-02-2008, 05:55 PM
Their Scouting Department has done a lot better job, plus with the fact that they have had the #1 pick in Baseball more times in the last 10 years than anyone in Baseball...

When you are constantly picking between #5 - # 25, the chances of getting a can't miss aren't as good...

Tampa Drafts higher so they get the sure fires...

Example. Delmon Young, BJ Upton, Evan Longoria, Price, etc...

Those are 3 great great players, and when u miss with Stubbs and let Lincecum slip by, thats whats going to happen... But it doesn't matter... Howingtons, Nitkowskis, Oliver's, Mottola, Gruler, etc... All these guys hurt the system because they were not the next coming...

So being mediocre all the time 70-80 wins, and a scouting department for the last 20 years, that has basically been undepaid, and understaffed... Well, you don't get the can't miss talent, so basically you go on signing for Millions of Dollars...

Merker, Stanton, Patterson, Aurilla, Gonzalez... not to mention the players from 1996- now that have just been stop gap guys...

for mass players than basically don't do anything Long Term, just spend money, or the illusion of spending money... This team doesn't spend money wisely...

So, thats why I think the Reds cannot do what Tampa Bay has done...

07-02-2008, 06:23 PM
Because we didn't have a top 5 overall pick 4 years in a row.

07-03-2008, 12:21 AM
better than terrible for 10, good for none i guess :D

I thought that was funny as well :D

07-03-2008, 12:37 AM
Because we have Duhhhsty Baker as our manager.

07-03-2008, 10:06 AM
I will say the Rays are exciting to watch. I turned over to watch them play the Red Soxs last night. Lets see, stay tuned into the Reds getting pummled by another crappy team, or watch an exciting team on the upswing? Hmmmm

07-03-2008, 10:59 AM
Unless it is an absolute CANT MISS player.. I dont know why you draft anything other than pitchers in the first 2 rounds.. position players are far more of a crap shoot..

07-03-2008, 11:05 AM
they will follow the marlins pattern.. good for one year.. TERRIBLE for 4.. if you want that.. great..

Might be a refreshing change of pace from our stinking for the better part of 10 years straight now.

07-03-2008, 11:14 AM
I agree.. I am just saying.. you get those 4 years of being just about as bad as possible.. thought their win totals are not that far off from ours.. I agree that at least they win championships.. but many here will not go to games if we keep having fire sales..

PTI (pti)
07-04-2008, 12:05 PM
The Reds can't do what the Rays are doing until ownership and management *together* decide to rebuild this franchise. This has pissed me off for years and years about the Cincinnati Reds. We've sat thru almost 15 years of losing, playoff-free baseball, and ownership/management refuses to do anything about it. As long as we keep making half-assed free agency moves and fail to address our biggest needs (FARM SYSTEM), this franchise will be stuck in the bottom of the NL Central until I'm old and gray.

Get rid of Dunn, Griffey, Cordero and Arroyo - and re-invest that money in the farm system. That's, what, $40-50 million/year right there?? How does the old saying go? We finished in last place with you, we can finish in last place without you.

The difference between the Reds and the Rays/Marlins is that we have fans that actually care about the team, and we wouldn't have to have a major fire sale every 4 years if we make smart, financially-responsible baseball decisions (avoid huge free agent contracts, trade veterans when their value is at it's peak, offer incentive-laden, Longoria-type contracts to young studs - like Jay Bruce - to buyout a year or two of free agency, etc).

Wow. Sorry for the rant. I'm just of the opinion that it takes 2 brain cells to run a baseball franchise - and most guys don't even have that.

07-05-2008, 06:20 PM
I'd like to twist the question slightly and offer some thoughts on how to develop small market winner.

1. Properly value defense. No compromise on plus defense up the middle. Trade defense for offense on the corners only in the area of speed, not catching and throwing. Poor defense is demoralizing. I believe the Reds have but one plus defender. The one constant through the losing years has been poor defense.
2. Develop players for offensive roles. Value OBP. Emphasize deep counts. Teams that make their opponents throw more pitches, have an advantage. More men on base and more pitches thrown increase the likelihood that your sluggers will get a pitch to drive. IMO the Reds are not selective enough at the plate. Nor is there a natural batting order.
3. Don't be afraid to platoon. Is there an unwritten rule that managers must give players an opportunity to build stats by playing every day? With few exceptions, outfielders should be platooned. Is it better to have a single player have 35 HRs playing everyday, or to have a left/right platoon together hit 45? The object should be to win by maximizing the position, not the individual's stats.
4. Starters are ground ball pitchers. Power pitchers are relievers. If the infield defense is good, ground ball pitchers who pitch to contact should excel. Power pitchers can be more effective late in the game. Train all relievers to go two innings. Closer and set up man are not valid positions. Counting saves and holds (the most absurd statistic in baseball) have given us yet another statistic to ponder. Unfortunately, it has tended limit manager's choices. Cordero may the best choice in a critical spot in the fifth inning. Again, the object is to win, not help players build statistics.
5. No free agent signings. Most free agents have reached a point in their careers at which their downside is greater than their upside and the likelihood of injury is higher. This poses a risk/reward quotient for small market teams that is unacceptable. Use the money to sign draft choices or foreign players. Selectively, extend home grown players to longer term contracts before they reach arbitration.
6. Invest heavily in player development. Strive for the best scouting and coaching in baseball. Don't lose a prospect because he believes another organization can develop him better. Don't be afraid to move major leaguers for prospects. Keep the pipeline filled. Even the best scouts can't identify future major leaguers all the time. After the few "can't miss" players, it is a numbers game. I like toolsy players there. Also, character counts. Small market teams will not be able to keep a winning team together. Moving major leaguers along to other teams and replacing them from the minor league pipeline at the right time will preclude the need for fire sales.