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ChatterRed
07-05-2008, 01:45 AM
Seeing how Griffey and Dunn will not be here next year, either by trade or just being allowed to walk, the Reds will need 2 more starting outfielders to go with Jay Bruce next year. Are you comfortable enough with Hairston? With Freel? Do you move Votto to LF and feel comfortable with him there? Who would then play 1B? What to do about SS since Gonzalez is most likely out?

Here are the positions that are a lock:

2B - Brandon Phillips (RH) (current age 28)
3B - Edwin Encarnacion (RH) (age 25)
RF - Jay Bruce (LH) (age 21)
SS - plenty of options or do you go get someone else?
1B - Votto or someone else?

Where to play them or do you keep them?:
(LH) - Joey Votto (1B or LF?) (age 24)
(RH) - Jeff Keppinger (1B, SS, 3B, or OF?) (age 28)
(RH) - Jerry Hairston (SS, 3B, CF?) (age 32)
(RH) - Andy Phillips (Utility guy?) (age 31)
(LH) - Corey Patterson (OF) (will be 29 in a month)
(RH) - Ryan Freel (OF) (age 32) - currently on DL
(RH) - Norris Hopper (OF) (age 29) - season ending surgery
(RH) - Jolbert Cabrera (SS - Utility man) (age 36) - currently on DL
(RH) - Paul Janish (SS - Utility Man) (age 25) - Triple AAA
(LH) - Chris Dickerson (OF) (age 26) - Triple AAA
(LH) - Rob Mackowiak (OF) (age 32) - Triple AAA

Catchers?
(LH) Paul Bako (36)
(RH) David Ross (31)
(SH) Javier Valentin (32)
(RH) Ryan Hannigan (27) - Triple AAA
(RH) Alvin Colina (26) - Triple AAA

Gone?
(LH) Adam Dunn (LF) (28)
(LH) Ken Griffey Jr. (RF) (will be 39 in November)
(RH) Alex Gonzalez - (SS) (season ending surgery - 1 year rehab atleast - most likely will not play in '09)

Starting Pitching:
(RH) Aaron Harang (30)
(RH) Bronson Arroyo (31)
(RH) Johnny Cueto (22)
(RH) Edinson Volquez (25 as of yesterday)
(RH) Homer Bailey (22) - Triple AAA
(RH) Matt Belisle (28) - Triple AAA
(RH) Darryl Thompson (22) - Triple AAA
(LH) Matt Maloney (24) - Triple AAA
(RH) Josh Fogg (31) - Triple AAA
(LH) Ben Jukich (25) - Double AA - 7-3, 2.96 e.r.a.
(RH) Sam LeCure (24) - Double AA - 7-4, 3.46 e.r.a.

Bullpen:
(LH) Jeremy Affeldt (29)
(LH) Bill Bray (25)
(RH) Jared Burton (27)
(RH) Francisco Cordero (33)
(RH) Mike Lincoln (33)
(RH) Gary Majewski (28)
(RH) David Weathers (will be 39 in September)
(RH) Todd Coffey (27) - Triple AAA
(LH) Danny Herrera (23) - Triple AAA
(RH) Marcus McBeth (27) - Triple AAA
(RH) Josh Roenicke (25) - Triple AAA
(RH) Robert Manuel (25) - Double AA - 1.20 e.r.a, 45 IP, 57 K's, .181 opp BA

Position Players I keep:
(RF) Jay Bruce
(3B) EE
(2B) Phillips
(1B or LF) Votto
(SS or CF - or keep around in case of injuries) Hairston
(SS, 1B, or maybe OF?) Keppinger

Position Player I let go or trade:
(OF) Corey Patterson - should have been gone awhile ago
(OF) Ryan Freel - I'd like to free up his salary - he's an injury waiting to happen
(OF) Norris Hopper - can't we do better and get someone with a little pop?


Indifferent as backups:
Jobert Cabrera - he is 36 years old - we could probably do better going younger
Andy Phillips - solid, but he's really a Third Baseman
Paul Janish - I thought he looked overmatched at the plate

Starting Pitching:
Very hard to project with Arroyo and Harang supposedly available for the right return. If both are traded, the Reds are back to square one. I won't miss Arroyo. But Harang would leave a big void. I really don't want to trade Aaron unless we got good return in terms of solid mulitiple pitching prospects.

Harang
Volquez
Cueto
???
??? - Free Agency? Not much out there.

Bullpen:
Release or trade the following - Majewski, Weathers
Trade Affeldt if you get good return or you know he will walk after the season. The problem is, he is one of only two lefthanded relievers in the bullpen and he has been pretty solid against lefties.

Bray, Burton and Cordero look to be the backbone of the bullpen. I would have liked to have kept Affeldt for situational against lefties too, but probably won't happen. So more than likely, we are looking to fill 3 or 4 spots. Not as easy as it looks.

Pitching overall:
If Arroyo is traded, we have atleast 2 question marks in the rotation again. We have alot of potential options in the minors, but we'd be looking at another season of growing pains, IMHO.

Bullpen - solid is the backbone, but have question marks after that.

Infield - 2B, 3B are already determined and we have plenty of options at SS (Keppinger or Hairston) and 1B (Votto or Keppinger)

Outfield - Bruce and possibly Hairston and who else? Move Votto to the OF?

Offfense:
LH Power: Bruce and Votto are going to be counted on to hit atleast 20-25 HR's and provide the LH power.

RH Power: Phillips and EE? I think both should hit about 20+ HR's.

RH Hit for average: Keppinger

RH speed: Hairston, Phillips

This team has 4 potential 20-30 HR guys in Votto, Bruce, Phillips, and EE. No big huge 30-50 HR guy.

Speed: Phillips as a starter, Hairston to be determined.

Offensively this team needs some more speed guys and maybe one 30+ HR hitter. We lose two LH power hitters, and may need to replace one, but I don't see anything out there. Personally, I'd rather have a RH power hitter and hope Votto and Bruce can provide the rest from the LH side.

Things I would consider:
1. Signing or trading for Pat Burrell. Some have said he's another Adam Dunn, but the stats don't necessarily back that up. Burrell played nearly 60 games at 1B in 2000 and could probably be moved there permanently. He K's somewhat less than Dunn and walks almost as much. Hits for a little better average. I think he is better than Dunn, but just my opinion. And it may come down to him being more of a baseball player than Adam, because Adam has the rep of not caring much about baseball, and I've never heard that about Burrell. Burrell seems pretty competitive to me.
2. IF they don't sign a power bat to play 1B, then I stick Keppinger on 1B, reminiscent of Keith Hernandez. A solid average hitting guy on 1B.
2. This means we'd move Votto to LF. Hope he can handle it.
3. This means Keppinger plays SS if we sign a Burrell type player.
4. Need another OFer. Preferably speed.
5. Need a SS if Keppinger plays 1B. Gonzo is out. Hairston isn't getting any younger. Wish we could steal Reyes from the Mets - good OBP, steals, hits .280-.300.

Thoughts?

Noosh
07-05-2008, 03:31 AM
I think a lot of people on here undervalue Keppinger. He continues to impress me both offensively and defensively and I would like to see him in the Reds' future, whether it be at SS, 1b if Votto is to move to LF, or at least as a frequent stand in from the bench in various positions. I know he happens to be in a bit of an ofer streak at the moment, but it seems like 9 out of 10 times he makes an out it's just because he hit it hard right at somebody. I don't remember the last time the guy struckout.

I would also like to see Hairston resigned. I'm sure he won't become a .340 lifetime hitter, but if he continues to hit well the rest of this year why not sign him to a cheap contract and let him play until his play declines, if it ever does. Best case scenario: he has discovered his true ability and can be our everyday CF and leadoff hitter with Bruce in RF and Dunn/a new pickup in LF. More reasonably he could be a cheaper Ryan Freel with a more consistent bat and smarter defense and baserunning.

Griffey I think 100% needs to go. The two big questions to me are Dunn and Arroyo. If Dunn does not get traded this year I think they should resign him as long as the bidding doesn't get outrageous. I wouldn't be satisfied with just dumping his salary for picks. The best way to make that reasonable seems to be to dump Arroyo's salary for a decent OF/C/prospect. If we can't trade Dunn or Arroyo then I guess we'll take the picks because Dunn's salary will probably be unaffordable.

For pitching: Locked in:
Harang, Volquez, Cueto
Possible 4/5:
Arroyo/Fogg/Thompson or Bailey/Belisle if they somehow make major improvements.

Bullpen:
Bray, Burton, Cordero. Maybe keep Affeldt. Give Herrera and Roenocke a whirl.

So -
1b: Keppinger/Votto
2b: Phillips
SS: Keppinger/Janish
3b: Edwin
RF: Bruce
CF: Hairston/New Pickup
LF: Dunn/Votto/New Pickup
C: Hell if I know. Complete overhaul.

Any position players not listed above I can do without. The bench could use a lot of new faces.

ChatterRed
07-05-2008, 03:59 AM
I agree with most of what you said except Dunn. I'd let him walk and take the comp picks. This team has done nothing with Adam, and I think it goes beyond arguing stats. Same with Griffey. There is more to this.

When an a prevalent attitude of losing has gone on for 5 or 10 years, you need to boot the veterans who have been here that long, because I think they get complacent.

It's time to move on to the young guys who have desire and fire. Also, then you consider guys like Keppinger who have never gotten a shot and then Cincy gives it to him. I think he is a winner. His current slump is just getting back into the groove of things after coming off the DL. They have to find a place for Kepp.

I agree about Hairston. Sign him, give him a chance until he proves otherwise.

I think people need to think more long term on this board. People say that freeing up all that salary won't do any good because the free agent market stinks this year..........but what about the year after that? Plus, all these young guys will need another year of seasoning atleast. I wouldn't expect big things in '09..........except for some improvement. If the team would do better than expected, you could always make some moves at the trading deadline to better your team.

Let Dunn and Griffey walk. Trade Arroyo. Free up all that salary.

1B Votto or eventually Yonder
2B Phillips
SS Keppinger
3B EE
LF Free Agent or eventually Votto
CF Hairston or Free Agent or Trade
RF Bruce

You also have Frazier blazing his way through the minor leagues and a few others at high A who should be in Double A next year.

Ghosts of 1990
07-05-2008, 08:31 AM
I'd like to keep Hairston, Keppinger Freel, Mackowiak, Dunn and the list of the young guys that are locks.

I think Hairston has earned the right to be the everyday CF next season. A bench with Mackowiak, Freel, and say, Valentin; and whoever else can make the team, should be a good bench.

Everyone else can go offensively.

Pitching, it sould be this:

Volquez
Harang
Cueto
Thompson
Bailey

Bullpen

Bray
Majewski
Herrera
You'll need 2 or 3 free agents
Burton (closer)

Cordero, Arroyo, Affeldt, Weathers should be used to try and acquire a young catcher who could catch 120 games next season and some more bench depth.

bellhead
07-05-2008, 01:26 PM
1. Dunn and Jr. ride off into the sunset taking their 30 million dollars with them next year.

2. Sign C.C. Sab. for 5 years and $$ around 85 to 100 million. Bronson is gone.

3. Sign a right handed power bat, who can either play a very good outfield, or 1b allowing Votto to play lf. Where he would be a very good defensive outfielder, he has good speed.

4. Dump Corey Patterson, and sign a better player is Joey the guy?

5. The Bullpen should be Bray, Burton, and Cordero. Then add in Roenicke and another Minor guy we have several on the way here. Resign Weathers, Affedlt, and Lincoln. This should be a very good pen next year when Stormy is coming in 5th and 6th innings instead of the 8th.

6. Resign Backo and dump Valetine and Ross. Promote the guy from AAA.

I think just having an outfield of Votto, Bruce, and a gold glove centerfielder would lower the team era by a .5. The Reds for the last 7 years have led the league in extra based hits because of no range Dunn and Jr.

The infield is solid, adding a RH power hitting 1b is key. ¨hey is albert available¨

Starting pitching would be really strong. The top 3 would be the best in the majors with Cueto at 4 and Thompson at 5.

This years draft was a very good one in college relief pitching for the Reds. The kid Stewart has an outside shot next year to make the team. He should be in AA before the end of the year, and there are a couple of more guys playing really well right now.

The key though is CC and a powerhitting 1b.

mroby85
07-05-2008, 01:55 PM
1. Dunn and Jr. ride off into the sunset taking their 30 million dollars with them next year.

2. Sign C.C. Sab. for 5 years and $$ around 85 to 100 million. Bronson is gone.

3. Sign a right handed power bat, who can either play a very good outfield, or 1b allowing Votto to play lf. Where he would be a very good defensive outfielder, he has good speed.

4. Dump Corey Patterson, and sign a better player is Joey the guy?

5. The Bullpen should be Bray, Burton, and Cordero. Then add in Roenicke and another Minor guy we have several on the way here. Resign Weathers, Affedlt, and Lincoln. This should be a very good pen next year when Stormy is coming in 5th and 6th innings instead of the 8th.

6. Resign Backo and dump Valetine and Ross. Promote the guy from AAA.

I think just having an outfield of Votto, Bruce, and a gold glove centerfielder would lower the team era by a .5. The Reds for the last 7 years have led the league in extra based hits because of no range Dunn and Jr.

The infield is solid, adding a RH power hitting 1b is key. ¨hey is albert available¨

Starting pitching would be really strong. The top 3 would be the best in the majors with Cueto at 4 and Thompson at 5.

This years draft was a very good one in college relief pitching for the Reds. The kid Stewart has an outside shot next year to make the team. He should be in AA before the end of the year, and there are a couple of more guys playing really well right now.

The key though is CC and a powerhitting 1b.

If i'm not mistaken CC turned down a 5 year $100 mill. offer from cleveland. Honestly i don't think he's worth that kind of money, he could also be the type that has an early end to his career because he doesn't take care of his body.

stfm965
07-05-2008, 02:08 PM
C.C. is going West Coast

Noosh
07-05-2008, 02:29 PM
CC definitely is not the answer. The idea of dumping salaries of Dunn/Arroyo is to sign a number of solid free agents to fill potential voids in the outfield and at catcher, not to blow it all on a big name free agent. That doesn't leave us in a better situation. A decent upgrade in CC over Arroyo, but what about Dunn's spot? We're not looking to replace two of our biggest salaries with one bigger salary.

NeilHamburger
07-05-2008, 02:35 PM
I let Dunn and Griffey walk, sign Milton Bradley, Furcal and see if I can get Ben Sheets (only way that is possible is if Reds can find someone to take most of Bronson's contract)

Dunn 13 million
Griffey 12 million
Bronson will be making around 10 mill
Patterson 3.5 million
Ross 2.5 million
Weathers 2.5 million

You could replace Cpatt, Ross, Weathers, Griffey and Bronson with guys making the min. and get the same results. Dunn, well, it's time for a change.

Sheets 16-17 million
Furcal 13 million
Bradley 9-10 million

You could have those guys for roughly the same as Dunn, Griffey, Bronson and Cpatt. Just replace cpatt with a rook. making the minimum.


Lineup:

Furcal SS
Hairston Cf
Bradley Lf
Votto 1st
Phillips 2nd
Bruce 3rd
EE/Kepp third
Whoever you can find at catcher (I'm not sure if anyone good is really avail.)


Pitching

Sheets
Harang
Volquez
Cueto
Bailey/Thompson/Maloney???--I'd imagine one of those three would turn it up to make a 5

Bullpen
Cordero
Burton
Bray
Roenicke
Free agent pick up

mroby85
07-05-2008, 02:52 PM
is sheets a free agent? i'd be afraid to throw $ at him anyway because of how often he's injured.

NeilHamburger
07-05-2008, 03:04 PM
Yes, he is, and due to that injury history he'll be less costly then CC, I know it's a risk. This team has sunk 6 million combined this year into CPatt and Stanton, I don't mind risking about 10 million more than that for a few years on someone who if healthy could make this team a contender.


And the whole Ben Sheets is always hurt thing is somewhat overblown. He gets hurt, sure, but it's not huge arm injuries.

Since 2002 Sheets has pitched less then 141.00 innings exactly one season, that was in 2006 when he still threw over 100 innings.

Even if he has nagging injuries, there are much worse things than getting 170 innings out of Ben Sheets.

superred
07-05-2008, 03:28 PM
i wonder if francouer would be availible since they sent him down

ChatterRed
07-05-2008, 03:59 PM
I was all for spending big bucks on free agent top pitchers, but after seeing Johan Santana's results, I feel differently. He's not pitching badly and his era is around 3.00. But he is 7-7 and has been nothing close to unhittable. I agree about Sabathia's body and have changed my mind about signing him. I also am afraid of Sheets injury history.

I'd rather bring along the young hungry guys who are fighting for big contracts.

757690
07-05-2008, 04:09 PM
I think the key is adding players who have strong fundamentals. I would love to see the Reds sign Orlando Cabrera in the offseason. Cabrera might have lost a bit at the plate, but he still is one of the best leaders of an infield in the game. That is why the White Sox got him, to be provide stability to their infield. Because of his age, and his declining offense, he would be affordable.

Another choice would be Furcal. He would cost a lot more, but Dusty would love to have him. A SS who can lead off. And he is one of the best defensive SS in the game today.

If a new SS is signed, I would move Kepp to third, EE to first and Votto to LF (or Kepp at first and EE stays at third).

I don't think the Reds can compete with the infield they have. It is killing them on defense. Not even as much with errors, but with not covering the right bag, not turning the double play, not throwing to the right base, not backing up the right base....etc. The first and foremost thing I would do is rebuild the infield so that it is defensively and fundamentally sound. Without that, everything else would be futile.

superred
07-05-2008, 04:13 PM
furcal isnt going 2 be worth the huge money he would get he is good when he plays but he is injured alot

Orodle
07-05-2008, 04:24 PM
If your willing to move Votto to LF and Keppinger to 1B why dont you just move Keppinger to LF and keep Votto at 1B? Not only is it less moving around but I would imagine Kepp to be a lot better outfielder than Votto.

superred
07-05-2008, 04:30 PM
because votto is going 2 have 2 move anyway when alonzo comes

757690
07-05-2008, 04:34 PM
If your willing to move Votto to LF and Keppinger to 1B why dont you just move Keppinger to LF and keep Votto at 1B? Not only is it less moving around but I would imagine Kepp to be a lot better outfielder than Votto.

I agree, but I think Kepp would be a much better 1B than Votto, and that is a more important position. My reason for the moves is to get Votto away from 1B. I just don't see the Reds competing with EE at 3rd and Votto at 1B. I can handle one, but not both in the infield.

superred
07-05-2008, 04:39 PM
ee has been much better defensively than he was at the begining of the yr

Lockdwn11
07-05-2008, 04:39 PM
I have noticed that Votto's off the bag defense is pretty darn good it's his on the bag D that is lacking balls in the dirt ect.

757690
07-05-2008, 04:55 PM
I have noticed that Votto's off the bag defense is pretty darn good it's his on the bag D that is lacking balls in the dirt ect.

That's a perfect scouting report on his defense. That is what I see too. And I think a firstbaseman's play at the bag is far more important than his play off the bag, considering how many throws he gets a game. That and Votto's mental errors is why I would like to see him moved.

In 2004, the Red Sox had Nomar at SS and a group of Millar, and Ortiz playing first. Their defense was terrible, especially at 1B. They traded Nomar for Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientkiewicz and they played SS and 1B the rest of the way. They went 42-18 and won the WS that year. Defense matters.

Redeye fly
07-05-2008, 05:03 PM
I don't know if I would touch Furcal unless we could get him really cheap. The guy's already pretty much done for this year, and guys with back problems concern me a fair bit.

Redeye fly
07-05-2008, 05:13 PM
I think the key is adding players who have strong fundamentals. I would love to see the Reds sign Orlando Cabrera in the offseason. Cabrera might have lost a bit at the plate, but he still is one of the best leaders of an infield in the game. That is why the White Sox got him, to be provide stability to their infield. Because of his age, and his declining offense, he would be affordable.

Another choice would be Furcal. He would cost a lot more, but Dusty would love to have him. A SS who can lead off. And he is one of the best defensive SS in the game today.

If a new SS is signed, I would move Kepp to third, EE to first and Votto to LF (or Kepp at first and EE stays at third).

I don't think the Reds can compete with the infield they have. It is killing them on defense. Not even as much with errors, but with not covering the right bag, not turning the double play, not throwing to the right base, not backing up the right base....etc. The first and foremost thing I would do is rebuild the infield so that it is defensively and fundamentally sound. Without that, everything else would be futile.

Going forward, I'm not sure the infield defense will be that bad. Some of these guys are still pretty young. Granted, we've said Edwin is young for what seems like forever now. But what he's shown lately defensively has been real encouraging. Votto shows flashes of nice things and is the type of player who will work to get better. Phillips is obviously pretty much set. Where there's a gaping hole is at SS. Kepp makes all the plays he should make, but both he and Hairston are utility players who lack the range to really do you any favors at such a key defensive position. Gonzalez was supposed to be that guy, but obviously that hasn't happened. Too bad we're not back in the days of trying to decide whether to keep Barry Larkin or Kurt Stillwell.

ChatterRed
07-05-2008, 05:41 PM
We don't need infielders. We have plenty of guys to man the positions. Only way I go after an infielder is if we trade one of the guys we have playing infield, then you need someone, or if some can't miss player/prospect becomes available. Otherwise, I man the infield with Votto, Keppinger, Phillips, and EE. Worry about Alonso when he makes us have to promote him. Frazier will be another we have to make room for.

Newman4
07-08-2008, 12:34 AM
In short, lose the high priced position players and sign more pitching. I disagree about this offseason being a poor FA market. Sheets, CC, AJ Burnett, Oliver Perez, Ryan Dempster and Derek Lowe are all fair game. Lesser starters like Randy Wolf, Braden Looper, Jon Garland and Odalis Perez are also FA. I would build around Bruce, Phillips, Votto, Kepp and EE and fill out in spots with bargain players or young guys. Trade Arroyo, Dunn (or let him walk if the haul isn't worth it) and Junior. Trade Weathers and Affledt. Bray, Burton and Cordero is a good start in the pen.

Brutus
07-08-2008, 01:02 AM
1. Move Keppinger to third, Encarnacion to first and Votto to left... if the Reds can sign Orlando Hudson. Move Phillips to short in that scenario.

2. Trade Arroyo, Dunn, Griffey and Freel

3. Make a run at Sabathia or Sheets

4. Sign a serviceable fifth starter

5. Sign Rod Barajas as next year's catcher... let Valentin walk with David Ross.

6. If Arroyo can be traded for Victorino, take that deal.

C Rod Barajas
1B Edwin Encarnacion
2B Orlando Hudson
SS Brandon Phillips
3B Jeff Keppinger
LF Joey Votto
CF Shane Victorino
RF Jay Bruce

I'd probably come up with different scenarios that would be much more in-depth, but right now it's late and I didn't want to put a ton of time into it.

RedsFanInBama
07-08-2008, 01:06 AM
How far away is Valika and is he a realistic option as a big-league shortstop?

Also, I'd like to see this team clear Ross or Bako and get Hanigan up here to see what he can do. He is hitting well in Louisville and I firmly believe he could give us at least what we are getting this year. Bako seems better with the young pitchers so I'd try and trade Ross if I had a preference. That might not look like a long-term move, but it gives you a chance to see what you have in Hanigan and/or Colina.

ChatterRed
07-08-2008, 08:08 AM
Bako would be a better teacher than Ross. Ross has the better defensive arm, but Bako calls a better game, IMHO.

44Magnum
07-08-2008, 09:35 AM
Dunn and Jr. must be leave.
Votto must move to LF.
I would not retain EE.
The Reds need a Catcher.

1B - Alonso or Texiera
2B - Phillips
SS - Keppinger
3B - Hariston
LF - Votto
RF - Bruce
CF - ? Crawford
C - ? Saltalamanchia ?

improbus
07-08-2008, 10:59 AM
Yes, he is, and due to that injury history he'll be less costly then CC, I know it's a risk. This team has sunk 6 million combined this year into CPatt and Stanton, I don't mind risking about 10 million more than that for a few years on someone who if healthy could make this team a contender.


And the whole Ben Sheets is always hurt thing is somewhat overblown. He gets hurt, sure, but it's not huge arm injuries.

Since 2002 Sheets has pitched less then 141.00 innings exactly one season, that was in 2006 when he still threw over 100 innings.

Even if he has nagging injuries, there are much worse things than getting 170 innings out of Ben Sheets.
Remember, the Yankees signed the oft injured Carl Pavano and Kevin Brown to HUGE contracts, who is to say that someone like the Mets or Rangers won't do the same.

RedsFanInBama
07-08-2008, 11:08 AM
I think Hairston is better at shortstop than Keppinger, but I also think you have to think past Hairston. He is having a year that is well beyond his typical career. When that happens for a guy who is 32 years old and has been in the big leagues for more than a decade, you have to assume that it is an aberration. I would hold on to EE and try to get a SS this off-season. If I could do that, I would put Keppinger at first and move Votto to left.

This team needs to focus on getting a good SS and CF this off-season. Beyond that, keep trying to upgrade the pitching staff. That is what is ultimately going to win games. And almost as importantly, Dusty needs to find a lineup next season and stick with it. Jumping guys around all the time can really mess with the heads of young hitters. Let them get comfortable with a spot in the lineup and what that spot requires from them.

It's fine to platoon a player or two at the bottom of the lineup, but those top six guys need to pretty much be the same every night (not counting days off, which hopefully will happen less when Dunn and Griffey are gone).

757690
07-08-2008, 02:17 PM
How far away is Valika and is he a realistic option as a big-league shortstop?

Also, I'd like to see this team clear Ross or Bako and get Hanigan up here to see what he can do. He is hitting well in Louisville and I firmly believe he could give us at least what we are getting this year. Bako seems better with the young pitchers so I'd try and trade Ross if I had a preference. That might not look like a long-term move, but it gives you a chance to see what you have in Hanigan and/or Colina.

I am no minor league expert, but from what I have read, Valika is like Frazier, he is not a real SS and most likely will move to another position, maybe even the outfield by the time he makes it to the majors.

I do agree with you that the Reds need to find a solid defensive SS if they are to compete. It is fundamental.

thatcoolguy_22
07-08-2008, 04:06 PM
I will be honest in the fact that I have not read the entire thread as of yet but, here are my quick fix actions for the 2009 Cincinnati Reds.

(also this is all a hypothetical world but I do believe I am keeping everything somewhat reasonable)

1) FIRE DICK POLE and then pay Mario Soto however much money he wants or bring in Leo Mazzone (I imagine he would love to work with volquez, cueto, bailey, maloney, thompson)

2) Players who will not be resigned or options not picked up at season's end;
a. Javier Valentine-1.3 in 2008
b. David Weathers-2.75 in 2008
c. Corey Patterson-3.0 in 2008
d. Ken Griffey Jr.-16.5 in 2009 (club option)


3) Players I resign if they are somewhat reasonable contracts
a. Jeremy Affeldt (no problem watching him walk if he demands a multi year deal)
b. Jerry Hairston Jr. (see above)
c. David Ross- 3.5 in 2009 (club option)

4) I'm trading Bronson Arroyo before 31 July 2007. He is having a rough year at the moment but I could see us getting the proverbial PTBNL (ie cash)from Phil or Ariz. Plus it prevents us from paying the remaining 20 mil over 2 years.

5) I watch Adam Dunn leave via free agency and take the 2 picks.

6) SS will be filled by Paul "I hit slightly better than Barry Larkin did at the age of 11" Janish

7) CF (now this one is a doozy that not many will like for the time being) is filled by Matt Kemp. Trade Aaron Harang for Matt Kemp, Clayton Kershaw, James McDonald, and Chris Withrow (who reportedly hit 98 with "perfect mechanics at the age of 18)

8) The catching position... well ... uggh? hmm I keep David Ross and look to try and pry Taylor Teagarden from the Rangers. If not I will remain steady on the Ross + whatever defensive minded catcher going into spring training needs a job.

9) Free Agents I sign
a) push hard for John Lackey or C.C. Sabathia
b) Joe Biemel
c) experienced 5th starter (ie greg maddux if he stays another year)



1B- Joey Votto
2B- Brandon Phillips
3B- Edwin Encarnacion
SS- Janish/Gonzales
LF- Jerry Hairston Jr
CF- Matt Kemp
RF-Jay Bruce
C- David Ross

with Keppinger/Freel being the supersubs again

SP
1 Edison Volquez
2 John Lackey/C.C. Sabathia
3 Johnny Cueto
4 Clayton Kershaw
5 FA 5th starter/Maloney/Thompson/Bailey



RP
CL Fransisco Cordero
SU Jared Burton
MR Bill Bray
MR Joe Bimel
MR Josh Roenicke
MR Jeremy Affeldt
LR The loser among the 5th starter spot




The whole plan needs a lot of work and I'll look further into it but, this was just off of the top of my head. However gents, I have got to go back to work.

cbusredsfan
07-09-2008, 01:45 PM
1. People need to lay off Edwin. He's 25 years old and inconsistent at the plate, why is that so surprising to everyone? His overall defense however has improved each year. Errors should not be the only stat you look at when judging his defense. He has made some very impressive plays on the hot corner. While Keppinger can play 3B and probably be an average one at best, I don't feel comfortable with his arm over there.

2. Why is everyone so apprehensive to move Phillips to SS? He's said numerous times he'd like to be the SS for Cincinnati, being that Larkin was his idol growing up. He's got the arm and range to play the position. He's the best athlete on the team. Where do you generally want your best athelete playing D? Isn't it SS or CF? Keppinger would be a very good 2B. His arm would not be an issue there, I think he'd be able to turn the DP just fine from that position and he'd make all the plays expected of him there. I say flip them now, and then try to talk them into working together this winter so they're ready for spring training.

3. Votto will be fine at 1B. Experience from this season will take him a long way. He, like EdE, seem to have more trouble with the routine plays moreso than the tough plays. Reds fans don't need him worrying about learning a new position (LF) because his bat will be vital to this team once Dunn and Junior are gone. This kid has proven he will work his butt off to get better at whatever it is he's struggling with. Look for vast improvement in his D next year.

So basically what I'm saying is keep the infield in tact, just flip-flop Phillips and Keppinger. So this leaves Gonzo without a position. There's no way to trade him this year. So hope that he gets healthy and try to trade him this winter or more than likely early next season. Problem is, how do you get him enough playing time to show everyone he's healthy? The Reds can't afford another $6 mil utility/bench player.

4. The outfield will need a significant overhaul. The Reds will be sellers at the deadline, but I've asked before why a team can't be buyers to build for next season. I'll just mention the names that I find interesting that have been rumored to be available. Matt Holliday and Matt Kemp. Would you sell the farm for these two players? I would, but everyone keeps telling me that this is not fantasy baseball. Don't waste your time explaining that because I understand that. If you don't agree with me, tell me why you don't agree, tell me why we don't have the players to acquire talent like this. Don't give me the generic "this isn't fantasy baseball" line... I won't buy it. Third best minor league organization in the majors. I'd assume Bruce, Cueto and maybe Votto were apart of that ranking, but I think we have some pieces in the minor leagues that other teams would be interested in. I'm not interested in 5-year plans anymore, or building from within... to a point the Reds already have with Votto, EdE, Bruce, Cueto and maybe someday Bailey. That's pretty good if you ask me, you're not going to be able to put a 25 man group together from within. Now you have to make the difficult decision(s) on what young players to give up to get the final pieces to make your club a contender.

The Rox asked for David Price from the Rays in return for Holliday. He was rated one spot behind Homer by Baseball America. That has probably changed based on 2008 performance, but you can't tell me the Reds are that far off to having a package where they could get Holliday.

Matt Kemp has been rumored a problem in the Dodgers' clubhouse and they tend to throw his name around frequently in trade talk. The Reds may not have a fit with them at SS but I'd at least call. He can steal some bases and is batting leadoff for LA right now. His power will only get better in GABP.

Anyway, that's my bold moves for our OF. Most of you will tell me I'm crazy and it's impossible, but to me that's the attitude that has the Reds in their current situation. Unwilling to take a chance. That's why I love the Hamilton for Volquez trade. Krivsky was willing to give up talent to get talent at a position he needed it most.

5. The backend of the bullpen should be fine with Burton and Cordero. Bray has been pretty good and if they keep Affeldt, that's even better (although I expect him to be traded). They should be able to fill in the gaps to cover the innings ahead of Burton and Cordero. I think this year's bullpen has been better than we've seen in a couple years for the Reds. Not as big of a concern as it once was.

6. Starting pitching gets tricky. Do you trade Arroyo or keep him and his doubling salary? If you trade him, I say it's a salary dump and an attempt to get some prospects to replenish your farm system after the Holliday and Kemp trades. I say you keep him but slot him in at 3 or 4 in the rotation. You have to hope Harang isn't hurt and continues to be your #1. If not, then you can scratch 2009 all together. We won't know the whole story on Volquez until he pitches a full season. My guess is he contiues to be pretty darn good and I'd feel safe penciling him in as my #2 for '09. You have to expect Cueto to get better, he seems to be learning from his mistakes this year. Then that leaves you with the black hole at the #5 spot. Free agency or fill from within. They have tried both in '08 without much success.

6. Catcher is a big problem. I'd trade Ross' salary if the Marlins will take it. Bako would be no more than a backup for '09, same with Javy. If Valentin is not your #2 catcher then I see no purpose in keeping him. It's up to you, do you want an offensive or defensive backup? And it's beyond me how the Reds find an everyday catcher that can bat above .250 and can handle the pitching staff. I'm sure there's one out there but it might require trading for him and the question would be if the Reds have anything left in the minors to acquire one.

7. Two players I keep for my bench would be Freel (can't trade him due to salary and injury) and Hairston Jr. Hairston probably has earned an everyday spot based on his performance so far this season, but you can't overlook his career numbers. I think you'd be better off going into 2009 with him as one of your bench guys.

8. Lineup: could be juggled many different ways, but at least you have some balance (right vs left) with your power bats. Here's my first stab at it:

CF Kemp
2B Keppinger
RF Bruce
LF Holliday
SS Phillips
1B Votto
3B Encarnacion
C Trade/Free Agent????

Rotation:
Harang
Volquez
Arroyo
Cueto
Thompson/Bailey/Free Agent????

Slyder
07-09-2008, 03:27 PM
Might as well throw my 2 cents in on this discussion:

First Trade Deadline:

Guys I would attempt to trade/get rid of:
Junior
Valentin
Hairston
Ross (if Fla wants him let him go for w/e)
Weathers
Lincoln
Fogg
Arroyo (if he's not dealt at the deadline he isnt going to be dealt)
Patterson (DFA)
Gonzo (retirement/DL)

I understand not all thats going to happen via trade but all of those guys dont have a real future for me minus Arroyo (if he's the Good Bronson). Feel free to bash me for wanting to trade Hairston, but he's 32 and could be having a career year see if someone would want to pay the piper for him. Valentin doesnt really serve a purpose on an NL roster IMO. He's hitting .255 vs RHP, isnt that great of a defensive guy, why is he here?

With pitching in such demand maybe a team like the Mets or Rays could use a vet with plenty of playoff experience like Weathers.

For the rest of the season see what you got in the AA/AAA guys. If you lose 90 games and get some pieces for trading off guys that arent the future its a step in the right direction and not some faux-pose attempt at "winning now".

Resign:
Affeldt (If he is happy here keep him, he's under 30 and a good guy to have when you need an innings eater with opportunity to earn a rotation spot)
Dunn (blah blah blah ba with risp, blah blah blah his obp, blah blah blah weve heard it all before but with Griffey gone I don't think we can afford to lose Dunn.)

If Dunn could become/is willing to become a 1b, I would look at possibly trading Joey Votto like the Twins/Rays did during Spring Training. Now is the time to trade Votto if youre going to do it. Get a #3 type starter and a couple spects.

So right now:
C= No one
1b= Dunn
2b= Phillips
ss= Keppinger
3b= Ed E
LF= Freel
CF= No one
RF= Bruce

Rotation:
Harang
Volquez
(Guy traded for Votto)
Arroyo
Cueto

Pen:
CL: F. Cordero
Bill Bray
Jeremy Affeldt
Jared Burton
Danny Herrera

Catcher:
Ryan Hannigan or Alvin Colina should be able to give you a backup catcher to keep the bench warm.
Rod Barajas will probably be the big time offensive name out there. Jason Kendall would be one I'd kick the tires on just with his ability to handle youngish pitching.

Middle Infield: Would I consider swapping Phillips and Keppinger? Of course, will the Reds is the big question: Answer so far a resounding NO. Felipe Lopez is a FA to be :D, we could passify "the Trade" critics and bring him back :D. I don't know if we "need" a starting caliber guy with Kepp and Phillips in the fold so I probably wouldnt go after Hudson (whos going to get way too much money on reputation).

David Eckstein or Adam Everett would probably be who I'd target to spot someone in the middle. Or allow us to move Kepp around to rest other guys.

First two names on my speed dial this offseason would be Pat Burrell and Milton Bradley. If one of those two came in I'd move Bruce to CF, granted not the long term solution people want but a lot of people say Hamilton isnt a CF either. Bradley would bring some fire to this team.

Kick the tires:
Rocco Baldelli Check out his condition and see if maybe get a MLC with an invite to ST.
Cesar Izturis- Another option for SS depth. Ill finish my thoughts tonight when I have time.

RedsFanInBama
07-09-2008, 04:25 PM
I'm hesitant to move Phillips from second base. He's a gold-glove caliber player there and I would just leave him alone.

Fullboat
07-09-2008, 04:54 PM
I would like to hang on to Arroyo for 2 reasons
1. He is and innings eater(when right) he will give you 200+ innings a big help for and overused BP

2.If he bounces back(this a gamble for the Reds)he will be worth a heck of lot more next July
with a year and a half left on his contract.

dougflynn23
07-09-2008, 09:39 PM
In order, and assuming a realistic budget/player interest factor....

- Painfully eat Dusty's contract and hire Jim Tracy as manager

- Trade Bronson Arroyo to PHI for C Lou Marson and 3B Greg Dobbs : Marson is a quality, near MLB ready C who projects as a 12 HR, .275 BA with above average defensive skills.

- Trade Adam Dunn and Ryan Freel to LAD for OF Juan Pierre and P James McDonald : Taking Pierre's contract might just be to tempting for LA to refuse.

- Thank Junior for his services and decline his option.

- Trade Edwin Encarnacion and Homer Bailey to PIT for Jason Bay at season's end.

- Overspend on Ben Sheets..pay him whatever it takes to agree on a 4 year deal. Probably will take $15M per.

- Sign FA Juan Cruz to replace David Weathers

================================================== ======

Opening Day 2009

CF Juan Pierre
SS Jerry Hairston
RF Jay Bruce
LF Jason Bay
2B Brandon Phillips
1B Joey Votto
3B Jeff Keppinger
C Paul Bako

SP Harang, Sheets, Volquez, Cueto, Maloney
RP Cordero, Burton, Roenicke, Cruz, Pedro Viola, Bray, Pelland

Bench : Hanigan, Dobbs, Hopper, ?, ?

Blue
07-09-2008, 10:20 PM
I'm hesitant to move Phillips from second base. He's a gold-glove caliber player there and I would just leave him alone.

I'd be a little hesitant also, but if he plays SS for the rest of this season as a trial for next season, he's not going to forget how to play 2B if he doesn't stick at SS.

If he sticks, sign Hudson for 2B. I don't know about other moves. I go back and forth on whether its realistic to expect this team to compete next season. The pitching should be there, if Harang can get back to his old self.

redhawk61
07-09-2008, 10:38 PM
Dunn (blah blah blah ba with risp, blah blah blah his obp, blah blah blah weve heard it all before but with Griffey gone I don't think we can afford to lose Dunn.)

What exactly does Griff do that makes it hard to let Dunn go?

EddieMilner
07-09-2008, 11:11 PM
I am looking at 2010, and going with youth for it.
My starting line up would look like:
1b Yonder/Votto - if Yonder signs
2B Valaika
3B Frazier
SS Phillips - I've been against it but we have no one in the system. And with all the power at 2b in the NL, I think moving him to SS gets him on the All-Star team, which in turn increases his exposure and makes him worth more in a trade.
RF - Bruce
CF - Stubbs - Big if. But if he can OPS at around 780, with his defense, it would be good.
LF - Votto/EE - keep one, unload the other.

SP - Volquez
SP - Harang
SP - Cueto
SP - Bailey
SP - Maloney/Thompson/Jukich/etc.

Thats going to be one heck of a cheap lineup.

Until then -

Fullboat
07-09-2008, 11:21 PM
For this team to get better the entire coaching staff has to be replaced.Teach them Baseball 101
find the best player you have and make him Captain make sure he keeps players alert like Soto who yelled at his pitcher to cover third.

superred
07-09-2008, 11:45 PM
For this team to get better the entire coaching staff has to be replaced.Teach them Baseball 101
find the best player you have and make him Captain make sure he keeps players alert like Soto who yelled at his pitcher to cover third.

thats one of the things that gets me mad about this team they dont show any fire or anything no one gets in anyones face after a mistake or any thing they just sit back and watch

ChatterRed
07-10-2008, 12:28 AM
How would I rebuild this team? I'd see if I could trade the entire Reds team to Boston or Chicago for the Red Sox or Cubs.

RedsFanInBama
07-10-2008, 12:54 AM
I'd be a little hesitant also, but if he plays SS for the rest of this season as a trial for next season, he's not going to forget how to play 2B if he doesn't stick at SS.

If he sticks, sign Hudson for 2B. I don't know about other moves. I go back and forth on whether its realistic to expect this team to compete next season. The pitching should be there, if Harang can get back to his old self.

That's a good point. A trial run would be a good idea.

kpresidente
07-10-2008, 01:09 AM
CC definitely is not the answer. The idea of dumping salaries of Dunn/Arroyo is to sign a number of solid free agents to fill potential voids in the outfield and at catcher, not to blow it all on a big name free agent. That doesn't leave us in a better situation. A decent upgrade in CC over Arroyo, but what about Dunn's spot? We're not looking to replace two of our biggest salaries with one bigger salary.

There aren't any decent options at CF or catcher. So what are you going to do?

kpresidente
07-10-2008, 01:28 AM
I sign Mark Tixeira, whose numbers would explode in GABP. Move Votto to left, Hairston to center (if he's a fluke, a Hopper/Dickerson platoon would be fine), and trade Homer Bailey for Taylor Teagarden.

Dump Gonzo and Freel for cash considerations.

The lineup looks like this...

Hairston, CF
Keppinger, SS
Bruce, RF
Tixeira, 1B
Votto, LF
Phillips, 2B
Encarnacion, 3B
Teagarden, C

And the bench...

Gutierrez, 1B
Cabrera, INF
Janish, INF
Hanigan, CA
Hopper, OF

I'm OK with the rotation, because I think each of Harang, Arroyo and Cueto will be a lot better next year. The 5th starter would be up for grabs between Thompson, Maloney, Jukich or Lecure. Yonder Alanso would be trade bait for a pitcher as soon as that option becomes available. Sign Dennys Reyes to the pen.

So the staff looks like...

Harang
Volquez
Arroyo
Cueto
Thompson/Maloney/Jukich/Lecure

And the bullpen...

Cordero
Roenicke
Burton
Bray
Manuel
Herrera
Reyes


There's no need to rebuild the team. We just need to get rid of the dead weight, get a RH bat in the middle of the lineup, and get people back from down seasons (Harang, Arroyo, Encarnacion).

RedsFanInBama
07-10-2008, 01:51 AM
Not bad, kpresidente. My concern, though, is playing musical chairs with the leadoff spot. Hairston is great this year but his career numbers dictate that he will come back to earth. Hopper is not the option. Can Dickerson lead off? I really think for an offense to take off you need a leadoff hitter that you know you are going to plug in there every day. Of course, based on the FAs available, our best option may be to just pray that Hairston can do it again.

Slyder
07-10-2008, 01:58 AM
Might as well throw my 2 cents in on this discussion:

First Trade Deadline:

Guys I would attempt to trade/get rid of:
Junior
Valentin
Hairston
Ross (if Fla wants him let him go for w/e)
Weathers
Lincoln
Fogg
Arroyo (if he's not dealt at the deadline he isnt going to be dealt)
Patterson (DFA)
Gonzo (retirement/DL)

I understand not all thats going to happen via trade but all of those guys dont have a real future for me minus Arroyo (if he's the Good Bronson). Feel free to bash me for wanting to trade Hairston, but he's 32 and could be having a career year see if someone would want to pay the piper for him. Valentin doesnt really serve a purpose on an NL roster IMO. He's hitting .255 vs RHP, isnt that great of a defensive guy, why is he here?

With pitching in such demand maybe a team like the Mets or Rays could use a vet with plenty of playoff experience like Weathers.

For the rest of the season see what you got in the AA/AAA guys. If you lose 90 games and get some pieces for trading off guys that arent the future its a step in the right direction and not some faux-pose attempt at "winning now".

Resign:
Affeldt (If he is happy here keep him, he's under 30 and a good guy to have when you need an innings eater with opportunity to earn a rotation spot)
Dunn (blah blah blah ba with risp, blah blah blah his obp, blah blah blah weve heard it all before but with Griffey gone I don't think we can afford to lose Dunn.)

If Dunn could become/is willing to become a 1b, I would look at possibly trading Joey Votto like the Twins/Rays did during Spring Training. Now is the time to trade Votto if youre going to do it. Get a #3 type starter and a couple spects.

So right now:
C= No one
1b= Dunn
2b= Phillips
ss= Keppinger
3b= Ed E
LF= Freel
CF= No one
RF= Bruce

Rotation:
Harang
Volquez
(Guy traded for Votto)
Arroyo
Cueto

Thompson, Bailey, and Maloney could win a spot over say Arroyo but I think all 3 need more time and seasoning August/September being closer to expectaction.

Pen:
CL: F. Cordero
Bill Bray
Jeremy Affeldt
Jared Burton
Danny Herrera

Catcher:
Ryan Hannigan or Alvin Colina should be able to give you a backup catcher to keep the bench warm.
Rod Barajas will probably be the big time offensive name out there. Jason Kendall would be one I'd kick the tires on just with his ability to handle youngish pitching.

Middle Infield: Would I consider swapping Phillips and Keppinger? Of course, will the Reds is the big question: Answer so far a resounding NO. Felipe Lopez is a FA to be :D, we could passify "the Trade" critics and bring him back :D. I don't know if we "need" a starting caliber guy with Kepp and Phillips in the fold so I probably wouldnt go after Hudson (whos going to get way too much money on reputation).

David Eckstein or Adam Everett would probably be who I'd target to spot someone in the middle. Or allow us to move Kepp around to rest other guys.

First two names on my speed dial this offseason would be Pat Burrell and Milton Bradley. If one of those two came in I'd move Bruce to CF, granted not the long term solution people want but a lot of people say Hamilton isnt a CF either. Bradley would bring some fire to this team.

Kick the tires:
Rocco Baldelli Check out his condition and see if maybe get a MLC with an invite to ST. Maybe get another Former Ray to hit it big.
Cesar Izturis- Another option for SS depth. Ill finish my thoughts tonight when I have time.

If you want to go after another high priced RF to replace Junior, then Vlad Guerrero is where I'd look. He's not hitting quite as well as we are use to seeing from Vlad but could you imagine the damage he could do in a hitters park like Great American? Plus imagine the absolute sick plays he'd make in the outfield with that cannon of his in RF.

Bullpen:
With the likes of Weathers, Lincoln, and Fogg gone you give Beilisle and Coffey one last chance to show they belong if they dont perform they are sent packing. You also give Josh Roenicke among others an opportunity to show they can contribute in the pen. About the only 2 I'd hold back would be Bailey and Maloney at this time.

Homer Bailey Looking at video doesnt look like the same mechanics with much worse results. I would send him to every arm, shoulder, leg, and head specialist the secretary can find to make sure he is 100%. If he is then my next step would be to allow him some freedom to find "his comfort zone" again. Put him on the DL for "tired arm" or something and let him work how he wants. If he wants to go back to being the mid 90s thrower maybe see if he would want to close for the rest of the season, limit his work a bit and maybe see some life restored to the arm.

Bench:
I dont really see much in the way of bench personel available who isnt so old that they remember when Brett Farve was a young gun qb. I would scour the waiver wire and supplement the bench with young guys largely that may have just not reached their peak yet. I dont really know enough about spects to really "suggest" possible trades but with the scouting information I'm sure Jocketty has start seeing what I could get for some of our duplicate spects that might not project as well or are just blcoked by other people.

Coaching Staff:
Dick Pole, Jacoby= Gone.
Duhhhsty= Debatable.... yes I said Debatable.

Lineup:
Freel LF
Keppinger SS
Dunn 1b
Bradley RF
Bruce CF
Phillips 2b
EE 3b
Kendall Ca
Pitcher

Thoughts?

RedsFanInBama
07-10-2008, 02:13 AM
Slyder, the reason that bench players tend to be older guys is because younger guys don't do well when they aren't getting at-bats. They usually don't make very good pinch-hitters because they need repetition to succeed. That is why veterans are usually the best guys to have on your bench.

Slyder
07-10-2008, 08:11 AM
Slyder, the reason that bench players tend to be older guys is because younger guys don't do well when they aren't getting at-bats. They usually don't make very good pinch-hitters because they need repetition to succeed. That is why veterans are usually the best guys to have on your bench.

I mean I dont see much in the way of effective bench guys even among the vets listed as free agents to be.

kpresidente
07-10-2008, 08:14 AM
Not bad, kpresidente. My concern, though, is playing musical chairs with the leadoff spot. Hairston is great this year but his career numbers dictate that he will come back to earth. Hopper is not the option. Can Dickerson lead off? I really think for an offense to take off you need a leadoff hitter that you know you are going to plug in there every day. Of course, based on the FAs available, our best option may be to just pray that Hairston can do it again.

Hopper has a career .406 OBP vs. LH. Dickerson isn't quite as good at .376 vs. RH in AAA, but he gives you great defense, stolen bases and some power as well.

I think a worst case for that platoon is .375 OBP for Hopper and .350 for Dickerson, with about a .425 SLG. You really could do a lot worse.

Ohioballplayer
07-10-2008, 12:46 PM
If I were the Reds(far from it) I would BEG Tampa to take Jr b4 the all star break, Send Dunn to Arizona for well anybody. The Marlins want Ross, let him go, send Bronson to a contender in the AL. Move EE to 1B, Kepp to third Votto to LF, Gonzo will be back next year, take another chance on Hairston, but in CF, Bruce in right. Sign a couple of Difference makers for crying out loud. i think Homer needs a change of scenery, and can still bring us something great via trade.

cbusredsfan
07-11-2008, 10:52 AM
I'm sorry, but most are hesitant to move Phillips to SS and Kepp to 2B, but feel comfortable with Votto to LF, EdE to 1B, Kepp to 3B? I don't understand? There's no way Kepp can make the plays EdE does charging the ball and making barehanded throws to first. He might be able to make the play, but his arm will not allow him to get the runner 9 times out of 10.

Phillips was drafted as a SS, probably would have played SS for the Reds if they didn't already have Gonzo. Deep down I really think that's where he wants to play (has said it on more than one occasion), and moving him on the other side of the 2B bag should not be that big of a deal for a player as athletic as he is. Same goes for Kepp and 2B would be ideal for his lack of arm. Do it now and use the rest of '08 as a trial run and I think you will be surprised at what you see.

Keep this IF in tack, just swap BP and Kepp. They're young and the two question marks defensively are both showing improvement. Hang with'em!

Not to mention I feel it's easier to find outfielders to fill LF and CF. If nothing else, the Reds have shown us that.

cbusredsfan
07-11-2008, 10:55 AM
Also, while I'm not completely against Hopper being on this roster, his OBP is mainly made up of walks and bunts. I'm still skeptical whether he can consistently get on base swinging the bat.

Ohioballplayer
07-11-2008, 11:51 PM
I am not against that idea at all, but what do you do with Gonzo, he is an excellent fielder, I just simply don't like EE at 3b, why, well 15 errors that's why, could Gonzo play third????? move BP to short Kepp to 2nd, I am all for anything at this point.

ChatterRed
07-12-2008, 12:51 PM
I sign Mark Tixeira, whose numbers would explode in GABP. Move Votto to left, Hairston to center (if he's a fluke, a Hopper/Dickerson platoon would be fine), and trade Homer Bailey for Taylor Teagarden.

Dump Gonzo and Freel for cash considerations.

The lineup looks like this...

Hairston, CF
Keppinger, SS
Bruce, RF
Tixeira, 1B
Votto, LF
Phillips, 2B
Encarnacion, 3B
Teagarden, C

And the bench...

Gutierrez, 1B
Cabrera, INF
Janish, INF
Hanigan, CA
Hopper, OF

I'm OK with the rotation, because I think each of Harang, Arroyo and Cueto will be a lot better next year. The 5th starter would be up for grabs between Thompson, Maloney, Jukich or Lecure. Yonder Alanso would be trade bait for a pitcher as soon as that option becomes available. Sign Dennys Reyes to the pen.

So the staff looks like...

Harang
Volquez
Arroyo
Cueto
Thompson/Maloney/Jukich/Lecure

And the bullpen...

Cordero
Roenicke
Burton
Bray
Manuel
Herrera
Reyes


There's no need to rebuild the team. We just need to get rid of the dead weight, get a RH bat in the middle of the lineup, and get people back from down seasons (Harang, Arroyo, Encarnacion).


Actually, I like your idea. :thumbup:

Teixeira was born in April of 1980 (28 years old). He has 170 career HR's in the 5 previous seasons (average of 34), and currently has 17 this year. In GABP, he would easily hit 34-40 HR's, while hitting for a better average than Dunn or Griffey (Teixeira career average of .284, OBP . .371, SLG .533, OPS .904).

Not sure the Reds could afford him, but I think it is a very good idea. The question is if Votto can be a solid LFer.

will5979
07-12-2008, 05:57 PM
Well, I would sign Dunn long term first of all, then I would lock up all other young players, and I would persue a few big time FAs. Griffey, Ross and Enconcepcion would be gone. I like the idea of Texiera and moving Votto to the OF. I could live with this team's offense...

Hairston-SS
Bruce-CF
Dunn-LF
Texiera-1B
Phillips-2B
Votto-RF
Keppinger-3B
Some big name FA at C

Then the pitching staff

Volquez
Cueto
Harang
Arroyo
Some big name FA to fill the void

I could live with that team

Slyder
07-14-2008, 03:41 AM
Well, I would sign Dunn long term first of all, then I would lock up all other young players, and I would persue a few big time FAs. Griffey, Ross and Enconcepcion would be gone. I like the idea of Texiera and moving Votto to the OF. I could live with this team's offense...

Hairston-SS
Bruce-CF
Dunn-LF
Texiera-1B
Phillips-2B
Votto-RF
Keppinger-3B
Some big name FA at C

Then the pitching staff

Volquez
Cueto
Harang
Arroyo
Some big name FA to fill the void

I could live with that team

Granted I left out guys from AAA because I really don't know much about them or that if their time is soon (I guessed the guys at AA would be at least all star break next year at earliest ETA) but you gotta look at the free agent market and see that A) there is no Big names out there at a bunch of positions unless were talking like 2001 with Jason Kendall and for the woe that Griffey has become in right field, Votto maybe even worse (by most accounts). Thats why I said try and trade Votto with Dunn moving to 1b and see if you cant get a Matt Garza/Aaron Harang/Ed Volquez type pitcher for him.

Plus what do you think our payroll will be next year? 100 mil?

will5979
07-14-2008, 06:33 AM
Plus what do you think our payroll will be next year? 100 mil?

Sadly that is the ONLY way you can compete these days, open the checkbook.

improbus
07-14-2008, 07:29 AM
Sadly that is the ONLY way you can compete these days, open the checkbook.

That is NOT true. Minny ($56 mill.) is a few games out, same with Florida ($21 mill.), the Rays ($43 mill.), and Oakland ($47 mill.)
-In fact, their combined payroll is $167 million, $42 million less than the Yankees, and yet they are a combined 43 games over .500.
In 2007, Colorado's opening day payroll was $54 mill., Arizona's was $52 mill.

It helps to have the big checkbook, it allows you to recover from personnel mistakes (Red Sox trading for Eric Gagne), but it NOT the only way to win. For the Reds to win, they need to keep the minor league pipeline full of guys, not by signing Bronson Arroyo to an escalating contract.

nemesis
07-14-2008, 07:38 PM
Here would be a trade i'd make today to start the rebuild...

Harang, Bailey, Affeldt and Valakia and maybe Mesorasco to Texas

Tommy Hunter, Nelson Cruz, Jeff Saltamawhatshisname , Elvis Andrus (I am way impressed by this kid) and Omar Poveda to us.

Gives us a 19 year old shortstop who is tearing up AA, a 22 Starting Pitching prospect who has pitched well at 3 levels this year, a 23 year old catcher with promise, a power hitting outfilder who while struggling with MLB pitching in the past, is crushing Left handed pitching in AAA and a High A ball pitcher who is a flame thrower with control. This in trade for a 23 year old player without a postion in Valakia who might be a good 3rd base prospect/ replacement for Blaylock. Harang gives them a #1 starter which they have never had, who is used to pitching in a hitters park and been successful in doing so. Bailey is a texas kid who would give them a guy for 2009. Affeldt has pitched pretty well in 2 of the worst parks for pitchers and would probaly get his chance to start in Texas next year if he wanted to do so... You could also give up a guy like Mesarasco to replenish their catchers or Smith, Wood or Lecure another Texas kid for fluff.

eastkyred
07-16-2008, 01:18 PM
I would trade Arroyo, Weathers, and Affeldt. Also try to trade Griff and Dunn. If not, let them go in the off-season. As many have mentioned, this would free up quite a bit of cash. Instead of going after a top notch pitcher, cc or sheets, I would go after the top notch bat, holliday in a trade and try to sign long term, maybe same thing with Bay although I would much rather have Holliday, or sign Texiera. My preference would be to go after Holliday to play left field and bat 4th between Bruce and Votto. I would then look to add a #3 or #4 starter via free agency.

Lineup
Hairston - cf
Keppinger - ss
Bruce - rf
Holliday - lf
Votto - 1b
Phillips -2b
ee - 3b
catcher - either ross or someone picked up in an Arroyo deal

rotation
Volquez
Harang
Cueto
FA addition
Thompson or Maloney (I think Bailey will have to be the main chip in a deal to bring in Holliday)

as a side note - if interest in Dunn picks up near July 31st, and I expect it will, some type of three way trade may be possible where the reds send dunn to team A and Bailey to the rockies, and team A sends a couple of pretty good prospects to the Rockies, and the rockies send Holliday to cincinnati. I feel like this offense needs a consistent middle of the order bat and Holliday would fill that role. I think the starting staff will be good next year with continued dominance by Volquez, major bounce back out of Harang, and a big jump forward from Cueto.

Kingspoint
07-16-2008, 10:46 PM
It's already been rebuilt and is in perfect shape.

Dunn is traded for Starting Pitching in the next 2 weeks.

The 2009 and 2010 lineups:

2009:

1B Votto
2B Phillips
3B EE
SS Gonzo
LF Keppinger
CF Dickerson
RF Bruce
C No clue whatsoever...find one in the Free Agent Market
UTIF Hairston
UTOF Cumberland

2010:

1B Alonzo
2B Phillips
3B EE
SS Valaika
LF Cumberland
RF Bruce
CF Stubbs
C No idea who...someone from Free Agency from the year before or this year.
UTIF Keppinger
UTOF Henry or Dorn

Blue
07-16-2008, 11:30 PM
I guess perfect ain't what it used to be.

Kingspoint
07-16-2008, 11:46 PM
By perfect, I mean it has the Offensive Players it needs to win, and it also has enough Pitching and the ACE it has to win a World Series. They have to get something for Dunn, if not at least 2 1st Round picks next June. They can sign in Free Agency a #4 starter. They also have to get something for Arroyo, even if it's a single-A player.

Blue
07-16-2008, 11:53 PM
Those offenses are WAY worse than this year's. It would never compete with the Cubs'.

ChatterRed
07-17-2008, 12:11 AM
1. They have to bring in a quality power bat that also hits .270 or better. Preferably righthanded or switch hitter to put between Bruce and Votto.

2. Sign Hairston now. You can plan on him being a utility player, but someone always gets hurt, and he is a gamer.

3. Need veteran leadership from a quality player who can lead with a great work ethic. The anti-Dunn/anti-Griffey.

4. Need to shore up the starting pitching some more. I'd be all for signing Maddux as a #4 or #5. Volquez, Harang, Cueto, Maddux, and another of our young prospects. I also think Maddux would be a good influence. Trade Arroyo.

5. I like our bullpen. I'm concerned about Burton's health, but hopefully it is minor and can heal completely. I wish we could sign Affeldt as a lefty specialist, to go with Bray (who struggles keeping runners from scoring). Let Weathers go either by trade or FA. Cordero, Burton, Bray, Affeldt, Lincoln, Herrera, Roenicke. Or pick up another quality reliever in FA or by trade.

6. Resolve the catching situation either by trade or in free agency.

Minors:
1. Move Frazier to double AA soon.
2. Move Soto to high A or double AA by end of season.
3. Bring up Maloney, Thompson, and Jukich in September if the team is out of it, and give them each spot starts. Also bring up Bailey if he isn't traded.

AFalcon10
07-19-2008, 01:40 AM
6. Resolve the catching situation either by trade or in free agency.



I really like Ryan Hanigan , I think he has a bright future not that far off on the big league club.

ChatterRed
07-23-2008, 07:26 PM
I've changed my mind on Adam Dunn. I heard a caller on WLW with some facts about Dunn is batting in the wrong place because statistically he has been the first batter of an inning at a 2 to 1 ratio (he stated facts), and said Dunn doesn't get enough opportunities with men on base. Said he should be batting 4th, and that Phillips should be batting 5th. I actually disagree with that. I would rather have Phillips batting 3rd, because I want his speed on the bases. In fact, if Phillips were more disciplined at the plate, I'd like him batting leadoff. But he'd have to be more selective and draw more walks. Brandon would definitely see more pitches to hit there too.

Lineup:
CF Hairston
SS Keppinger
2B Phillips
LF Dunn
3B Encarnacion
RF Bruce
1B Votto
C ???

I think people would be surprised how much more potent this lineup might be without Griffey.

Or sign Teixiera, and trade Votto.

CF Hairston (RH) - gets on base, steals bases, can he bat .300 again? ($3 million?)
SS Keppinger (RH) - .300 hitter (cheap)
2B Phillips (RH) - .280 hitter, 25 HR's, steals bases ($5 million?)
LF Dunn (LH) - .240 hitter, 40 HR's, walks alot ($15 million?)
1B Teixeira (SH) - .280 hitter, 30 HR's, switch hitter ($20 million?)
RF Bruce (LH) - .270 hitter, 20 HR's, needs to cut down on K's (cheap)
3B EE (RH) - .270 hitter, 25 HR's, improving (cheap)
C ????

LouisvilleCARDS
07-23-2008, 08:40 PM
I think the Reds are in the constant paradox of: hit rock bottom and rebuild versus continue to stagger your way to mostly a little below .500 for years and years?

I tell you, for me, hitting rock bottom isn't the worst thing for a fan in sports. You know when you hit rock bottom, unless you're a perpetual loser with a fanbase that doesn't seem to care all that much (Royals, Clippers, etc), that at least management makes moves, or management is fired. Then, at least you get a FRESH start. The worst is being in a purgatory of complacency, constantly.

To me, it seems like the Reds in the past 8 years have muffled along in complacency enough that management won't go for the real rebuilding mode, and keep the complacency going by continuing the cycle of "wait and see" mode.

I think this year is a perfect example of it. The Reds are 3 games under, which means its pretty much a longshot to contend for the playoffs ... and then there's that keyword ... BUT they still aren't bad enough to dismantle everything and try to get younger.

I would trade the past several years of sucking with Tampa Bay's MUCH worse years of sucking, to be in the position they're in right now. That's the problem, if you're stuck in the middle constantly, management doesn't want to change things significantly in hopes of a comeback. It's like playing Hold 'Em and hoping to win with that two pair you have and keep calling, when you know in all likelihood the other guy has a three of a kind after a flop pair.

It's time to do some rebuilding, and you mgiht be surprised how a "rebuilt" team that was on sale performs. See what you can get for Weathers, Affeldt, maybe even Harang if the right offer comes along. The rotation has been doing decent enough WITHOUT Harang thus far, maybe it would continue as Bailey continues to improve and Fogg has done well. Maybe some fresh faces and getting younger would actually rally the team. This next week though, I think we really need to start dealing and preparing for next year and getting decent prospects.

ChatterRed
07-24-2008, 12:00 AM
I'm really surprised that other teams have not come a-calling for some of our better pieces.