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Will M
07-08-2008, 07:29 PM
From MLB trade rumors

Cubs Acquire Rich Harden
By Tim Dierkes [July 8 at 5:25pm CST]
Dave Kaplan of WGN Radio in Chicago reports that the Cubs have acquired Rich Harden from the A's. Sean Gallagher is reportedly part of the deal, and possibly Matt Murton. More when I have it.

RedsManRick
07-08-2008, 07:31 PM
Woah. Sucks to be the Brewers.

CTA513
07-08-2008, 07:35 PM
Hardens good when hes healthy.

Always Red
07-08-2008, 07:37 PM
Wow, that was easy.

They just went out and got what they needed. Imagine that!

CTA513
07-08-2008, 07:40 PM
Heres what someone posted on the Cubs board:
Rich Harden, Chad Gaudin for Sean Gallagher, Matt Murton, Josh Donaldson and Eric Patterson.

Matt700wlw
07-08-2008, 07:41 PM
Rich Harden and Chad Gaudin to the Cubs...it's breaking now on ESPN



Cubs acquire right-handed pitcher Rich Harden and Chad Gaudin from Oakland
07/08/2008 6:34 PM ET
MLB.com

CHICAGO -- The Chicago Cubs today acquired right-handed pitchers Rich Harden and Chad Gaudin from the Oakland Athletics for right-handed pitcher Sean Gallagher, outfielder Matt Murton, infielder Eric Patterson and catcher Josh Donaldson.

Harden, 26, is 36-19 with a 3.42 ERA (206 ER/541.2 IP) in 97 appearances (89 starts) in all or part of the last six seasons with Oakland. He has 523 strikeouts in 541.2 innings pitched, an average of 8.7 strikeouts per nine innings, and has limited opponents to a .224 batting average. He pitched in the 2003 and 2006 postseasons.

The righthander is 5-1 with a 2.34 ERA (20 ER/77.0 IP) in 13 starts this season with Oakland, fanning 92 batters in 77.0 innings, an average of 10.8 strikeouts per nine innings. His 2.34 ERA would rank second in the majors behind only Oakland's Justin Duchscherer (1.98), but he is just shy of the necessary innings to qualify. Harden's .206 batting average against would rank third in the majors. He has 92 strikeouts and 31 walks this season, one strikeout shy of a three-to-one strikeout-to-walk ratio. Harden has allowed only five home runs in 77.0 innings.

Among pitchers with at least 12 starts this season, Harden leads the majors with 10.75 strikeouts per nine innings (San Francisco's Tim Lincecum is next at 9.49) and he ranks 12th with 10.40 baserunners allowed per nine innings.

Harden spent one month this season on the disabled list (April 10-May 11) with a strained right shoulder and has averaged six innings per start since returning, four times pitching into the seventh inning or beyond. He has turned in a quality start in seven of his last 10 outings, posting a 2.02 ERA (14 ER/62.1 IP) and a .190 batting average against in that span starting May 17. Overall, he has allowed two earned runs or less in 10 of his 13 starts.

The 6-foot-1, 195-pound Harden went 3-0 with a 0.68 ERA (2 ER/26.2 IP) in four starts vs. the National League during interleague play this season, limiting those foes to a .132 batting average. In his career, Harden is 5-1 with a 1.81 ERA (11 ER.54.2 IP) in 10 interleague appearances, nine as a starter.

A native of Victoria, British Columbia, Harden is 10-3 with a 2.95 ERA (49 ER/149.1 IP) during the last three seasons, limiting opponents to a .201 batting average, though five stints on the disabled list have kept him to 29 appearances, 26 as a starter. His 2.95 ERA and .201 batting average against would lead all big league starters if he had accumulated the necessary innings during the last three seasons to qualify for league-leader rankings. In his career, he is 18-3 with a 1.45 ERA (35 ER/217.1 IP) when pitching at least seven innings (29 starts).

Gaudin, 25, is 5-3 with a 3.59 ERA (25 ER/62.2 IP) in 26 appearances (six starts) with Oakland this season, including a 3.38 ERA (10 ER/26.2 IP) in his 20 relief appearances. He has not allowed an earned run in 15 of his 20 relief outings and has pitched 1.0 inning or more in 17 of those appearances. The 5-foor-10, 185 pound Gaudin joins the Cubs having turned in a 1.50 ERA (1 ER/6.0 IP) in his last seven relief outings beginning June 21.

The New Orleans native has pitched all or part of the last six seasons in the big leagues with Tampa Bay (2003-04), Toronto (2005) and Oakland (2006-08), going 24-23 with two saves and a 4.33 ERA (25 203 ER/421.2 IP). He returned to the bullpen this season after making 34 starts with Oakland last season. Gaudin is 8-5 with two saves and a 3.63 ERA (59 ER/146.1 IP) in 111 relief appearances in his career.

Gallagher, 22, is 3-4 with a 4.45 ERA (29 ER/58.2 IP) in 12 appearances (10 starts) with the Cubs this season. He has split the last two seasons between the Cubs and Triple-A Iowa. Gallagher was originally selected by the Cubs in the fifth round of the 2006 Draft.

Murton, 26, has split the 2008 season between the Cubs and Triple-A, batting .250 (10-for-40) with two doubles and six RBI in 19 games for Chicago this season. He has spent all or part of the last four seasons in the majors, hitting .294 (256-for-870) with 28 home runs and 104 RBI in 308 big league games. He was acquired by the Cubs on July 31, 2004 from the Boston Red Sox as part of a four-team, six-player trade.

Patterson, 25, has also split the season between the Cubs and Triple-A and hit .237 (9-for-38) during his three stints in the big leagues this season. He was originally selected by the Cubs in the eighth round of the 2004 Draft.

Donaldson, 22, batted .217 (51-for-235) with six home runs and 23 RBI in 63 games for Single-A Peoria this season. He was selected by the Cubs in the second round of the 2007 Draft.

wheels
07-08-2008, 07:43 PM
Jimminy Christmas.

Cubs could well be a lock to end the curse now.

Let's hope for a black cat or somethin' in short order.

11larkin11
07-08-2008, 07:43 PM
Reports are Gallagher/Murton/Josh Donaldson/Eric Patterson (Coreys brother) for Harden and Chad Gaudin

Homer Bailey
07-08-2008, 07:54 PM
Another freakin steal. I'm furious.

guttle11
07-08-2008, 07:55 PM
Something has to be up with Harden. Beane wouldn't dump him for peanuts if there isn't something under the surface.

reds44
07-08-2008, 07:57 PM
Reports are Gallagher/Murton/Josh Donaldson/Eric Patterson (Coreys brother) for Harden and Chad Gaudin
That's what it is. I like Gallagher, but I'm not sure if Murton, EPatt, and Donaldson will ever be anything. Murton and EPatt both have skills, but I guess Billy knows better than me.

OnBaseMachine
07-08-2008, 07:57 PM
Wow. I can't believe Beane would trade both Harden and Gaudin and not demand Josh Vitters or Jose Ceda in return.

HumnHilghtFreel
07-08-2008, 08:01 PM
Gaudin isn't too bad himself. That's an absolute steal for the Cubs.

Joseph
07-08-2008, 08:04 PM
Will he start against us in this series?

RedsManRick
07-08-2008, 08:05 PM
Forget competing this year. Time to pull the trigger WJ.

reds44
07-08-2008, 08:06 PM
Will he start against us in this series?
No, Lou said his first start will come against the Giants.

NC Reds
07-08-2008, 08:07 PM
Wow. Oakland got a bag of beans. I don't get it.

jojo
07-08-2008, 08:09 PM
Murton is exactly the kind of guy one might think Beane has a fetish for-good on base skills, gap power and an excellent defender.

I think it'll be interesting to see where Patterson plays-if second eventually, he'll be a defensive downgrade vs Ellis.

But that's two guys coming back that figure to be solid regulars for the As.

Gallagher projects to be something like a league average starter for Oakland maybe even more in an environment that suppresses HRs.

Donaldson projects to be a regular catcher with some plus offense. Catchers are lottery tickets but it's hard to not like Donaldson.

Beane pulled off another nice trade as he continues to infuse the As with talent.

He gave up a year+ from a good starter but with Harden's injury history, it's possible Harden might not give the Cubs 30 starts. He also gave up a reliever.

dougdirt
07-08-2008, 08:10 PM
Sean Marshall isn't exactly a world beater but he isn't a bad pitcher. Given his flyball tendencies, Oakland is an ideal place for him to pitch.

OnBaseMachine
07-08-2008, 08:11 PM
Gallagher will be a solid middle-of-the-rotation starter for many years but I would have still held out for Josh Vitters or Jose Ceda to be in the package. Donaldson has a chance to be a decent hitting catcher but is currently struggling with a .625 OPS in the Midwest League (Low-A). I like Murton but I'm not sure he'll ever hit for enough power to play a corner outfield spot. Patterson is hitting well in AAA but like his brother he struggles to take a walk (only 12 in 203 atbats).

Blimpie
07-08-2008, 08:12 PM
That went from rumor to confirmation in, like, 24 hours....

Wow.

OnBaseMachine
07-08-2008, 08:12 PM
Sean Marshall isn't exactly a world beater but he isn't a bad pitcher. Given his flyball tendencies, Oakland is an ideal place for him to pitch.

It's Sean Gallagher, not Sean Marshall.

Spring~Fields
07-08-2008, 08:13 PM
Sean Marshall isn't exactly a world beater but he isn't a bad pitcher. Given his flyball tendencies, Oakland is an ideal place for him to pitch.

In your opinion did the Cubs give up a lot to get Harden and Gaudin

reds44
07-08-2008, 08:15 PM
Murton is exactly the kind of guy one might think Beane has a fetish for-good on base skills, gap power and an excellent defender.
Matt Murton is an awful defender, but he is definatley a player you knew Beane would get in return.

Homer Bailey
07-08-2008, 08:16 PM
Can the Cubs exercise Harden's option for next year?

reds44
07-08-2008, 08:17 PM
Can the Cubs exercise Harden's option for next year?
It's not a rental. Hendry said his option could automatically kick in, the Cubs could exercise it, or they could go to arby. Either way they have him for a year and a half.

Homer Bailey
07-08-2008, 08:18 PM
It's not a rental. Hendry said his option could automatically kick in, the Cubs could exercise it, or they could go to arby. Either way they have him for a year and a half.

I've had Harden every year in fantasy praying for health. Now I have to pray for injury. I can't believe this move.

VR
07-08-2008, 08:18 PM
Hmmm, seems like the A's could have gotten more. :confused:

I believe Harden has fared tremendously well in the Oakland grand canyon, er, Coliseum. Isnt' he mostly a fly ball pitcher though? To Wrigley?

Homer Bailey
07-08-2008, 08:19 PM
The Reds could/should have offered more than this for Harden. He's an unbelievable get.

dougdirt
07-08-2008, 08:20 PM
It's Sean Gallagher, not Sean Marshall.

Well then, I take back what I said and replace it with 'Better job than I thought at first Billy Beane. Gallagher is not a bad pitcher at all.

joshnky
07-08-2008, 08:24 PM
This and the CC trade are good news for the Reds if they want to trade Arroyo. It takes two of the big names off the market while taking buyers off the market that the Reds would not have wanted to trade with. If Arroyo can string together a couple more quality starts he might be able to net a decent hall in mid to late June when teams start scrambling for pitching.

guttle11
07-08-2008, 08:24 PM
Wow. Oakland got a bag of beans. I don't get it.

Simple, Beane thinks Harden is either done as a top of the rotation guy, or his arm is about to explode like Mulder's. He can't see all that much in Murton, Gallagher, and Patterson. He's dumping before it hits the fan, in his mind.

redsfan4445
07-08-2008, 08:28 PM
i look forward to the day the REDS add a big name near the deadline to help the team try for the playoffs.. sucks every year others get to do this and we Reds fans have to just sigh..!!

OnBaseMachine
07-08-2008, 08:33 PM
i look forward to the day the REDS add a big name near the deadline to help the team try for the playoffs.. sucks every year others get to do this and we Reds fans have to just sigh..!!

Yep. It's a great feeling when your team is in the playoff hunt and makes a deal for a big name playoff to help push the team over the top. I remember getting excited in 1999 when the Reds acquired Juan Guzman from the Orioles to help bolster the rotation, which he did.

jojo
07-08-2008, 08:35 PM
Matt Murton is an awful defender, but he is definatley a player you knew Beane would get in return.

The fielding bible suggests Murton was one of the best defensive left fielders in the majors from '05 thru '07. PMR to runs and UZR also support the notion that he was above average as well.

The biggest issue with him defensively is a weak arm.

jojo
07-08-2008, 08:38 PM
Well then, I take back what I said and replace it with 'Better job than I thought at first Billy Beane. Gallagher is not a bad pitcher at all.

Ya. I like what he did for the As.

Reds Fanatic
07-08-2008, 08:44 PM
Will he start against us in this series?
No the Reds will miss Harden this time. Pinella says he will start in the San Francisco series this weekend.

red-in-la
07-08-2008, 08:54 PM
Well then, I take back what I said and replace it with 'Better job than I thought at first Billy Beane. Gallagher is not a bad pitcher at all.

Gee Doug, seems like the target you were shooting at this last spring has moved a bit.

This is why competing NEVER means waiting. THis is not an attempt to revitalize the trade debate we wore out in March, just an I told you so. :D

Spring~Fields
07-08-2008, 08:59 PM
This is why competing NEVER means waiting.

What's that mean ?

IslandRed
07-08-2008, 09:01 PM
Something has to be up with Harden. Beane wouldn't dump him for peanuts if there isn't something under the surface.

I guess we can debate the return, but it's not a big secret why they'd be willing to move Harden: He's about to get expensive (always a factor for the A's) and his injury history suggests he can't be counted on.

red-in-la
07-08-2008, 09:03 PM
What's that mean ?

We went through debate without end in March/Feb over whether the Reds should trade prospects for Eric Bedard.

The argument against was Bedard was a rental while the Reds kids would be stars for years to come. Basically, it was, no trade, wait until 2009 0r 2010 to compete.

I said without end that the rest of the division wouldn't sit still and let the Reds catch them.......fell on deaf ears. I lost.

And it isn't intended as a real I told you so, just a ribbing to Doug and a reminder that the next time, the Reds need to strike while the iron is hot......the guy ahead of them have just show how, yet again.

OnBaseMachine
07-08-2008, 09:09 PM
We went through debate without end in March/Feb over whether the Reds should trade prospects for Eric Bedard.

The argument against was Bedard was a rental while the Reds kids would be stars for years to come. Basically, it was, no trade, wait until 2009 0r 2010 to compete.

I said without end that the rest of the division wouldn't sit still and let the Reds catch them.......fell on deaf ears. I lost.

And it isn't intended as a real I told you so, just a ribbing to Doug and a reminder that the next time, the Reds need to strike while the iron is hot......the guy ahead of them have just show how, yet again.

So you still think the Reds should have traded Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto for Erik Bedard? A two year rental who is having a solid but not great season and has been injured twice already. That trade would have set the Reds back another five years.

Spring~Fields
07-08-2008, 09:10 PM
I said without end that the rest of the division wouldn't sit still and let the Reds catch them.......fell on deaf ears. I lost.



Even though you were and are right,

Thank you.

Sometimes people forget what they already know.

Patrick Bateman
07-08-2008, 09:15 PM
We went through debate without end in March/Feb over whether the Reds should trade prospects for Eric Bedard.

The argument against was Bedard was a rental while the Reds kids would be stars for years to come. Basically, it was, no trade, wait until 2009 0r 2010 to compete.

I said without end that the rest of the division wouldn't sit still and let the Reds catch them.......fell on deaf ears. I lost.

And it isn't intended as a real I told you so, just a ribbing to Doug and a reminder that the next time, the Reds need to strike while the iron is hot......the guy ahead of them have just show how, yet again.

I wasn't part of that debate, but that wasn't what it was about. I don't think anyone will argue that other competing teams are going to try hard to make some moves to go forward. So if your point was that the Brewers and Cubs would explore moves like this, then I really don't get it. The Cubs have been making these types of significant moves for quite a while.

The debate was about whether the Reds were good enough to compete if they grabbed a Bedard or a Blanton. Considering where we are right now, I'm going to say no, when considering the likes of Bruce, Cueto, Votto were the types of guys being targeted. To get Bedard, Bruce wouldn't be here. To get Blanton, Cueto wouldn't be here. Honestly, I doubt we would be any better right now (when considering the performances we have got from the young guys), which would firmly put as a non-competing team. Yet at the same time, we give away our best building blocks that have proven that they can play significant roles right now. The only big piece that is faltering right now is Bailey. The other 3 are far more valuable than the target players. And it would have taken at least 2 to make a deal. The young guys have grossly outperformed your expectations for them.

I think all hindsight has told us is that posters like Doug who thought holding on to Votto/Cueto rather than making an ill timed attempt to contend were right. We will be better in the future because of it, and sacrificed little in the now. Bedard quite simply would not have made us a legit contender. If we didn't have the likes of Votto, Cueto, and Bruce right now, there would be basically zero hope for the future.

dougdirt
07-08-2008, 09:19 PM
Gee Doug, seems like the target you were shooting at this last spring has moved a bit.

This is why competing NEVER means waiting. THis is not an attempt to revitalize the trade debate we wore out in March, just an I told you so. :D

I can honestly say I have no clue what you are talking about.

jojo
07-08-2008, 09:21 PM
So you still think the Reds should have traded Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto for Erik Bedard? A two year rental who is having a solid but not great season and has been injured twice already. That trade would have set the Reds back another five years.

Yep. By adding Bedard and factoring in the loss of a Bruce/Cueto, the Reds would've started the season maybe 6-7 games worse than the Cubs talent wise this season instead of the 9 that it looked like they were.

The Cubs would've basically just nullified that one year "gain" with this trade and the Reds would basically be nowhere fast with the cupboard bare....

Going for broke early when you don't have the stamina to finish the sprint is a sure way to lose the race.

red-in-la
07-08-2008, 09:42 PM
I can honestly say I have no clue what you are talking about.

I am afraid that was clear back in MArch.

And from the responses so far from the samo players on this board, none of you still have any clue what I mean......so, I have been poor at making my point, but I am not going to try again, so, it is what it is.

I guess it is goooooo Cubbies!

Patrick Bateman
07-08-2008, 09:48 PM
I am afraid that was clear back in MArch.

And from the responses so far from the samo players on this board, none of you still have any clue what I mean......so, I have been poor at making my point, but I am not going to try again, so, it is what it is.

I guess it is goooooo Cubbies!

Okay so I don't get your point.

But looking back, how would the Reds be better off by going for it this year and saying screw the future? We wouldn't be anywhere near the Cubs with a Bedard, and lose a big chunk of the future.

Whatever your point is, I'm not sure how the Reds would be better off by making a trade like those you were a heavy proponent of. The target staying fixed, or moving is still far and away above the Reds right now. Erik Bedard doesn't change that. Your shooting for 80-85 wins and at the same time arguing that we need more than that.

red-in-la
07-08-2008, 10:04 PM
You are the guys assuming I meant they should screw the future. You make moves, you then make other moves, you then make more moves.

The Reds idea of a move is giving Corey Patterson 3 million dollars.

My point was, IF they were going to compete it had to be soon, because JR and Dunn would for sure be gone and Harang, Arroyo and Phillips might well be gone (or hurt or whatever) by the time they could build a competitive rotation from kids.

Along the way, I also asked, as Haren, Bedard, Blanton (and yes, even Santana) went elsewhere, if they cannot compete with these moves, if they couldn't got make moves like this TO COMPETE, then they never will again.......not without a couple of really lucky drafts where they happen upon 12 or so STARS at the same time (in two years).

So, it may have failed big time, OK, but if it failed, forget about it and become a Cubbie or Yankee fan.

dougdirt
07-08-2008, 10:12 PM
You are the guys assuming I meant they should screw the future. You make moves, you then make other moves, you then make more moves.

The Reds idea of a move is giving Corey Patterson 3 million dollars.

My point was, IF they were going to compete it had to be soon, because JR and Dunn would for sure be gone and Harang, Arroyo and Phillips might well be gone (or hurt or whatever) by the time they could build a competitive rotation from kids.

Along the way, I also asked, as Haren, Bedard, Blanton (and yes, even Santana) went elsewhere, if they cannot compete with these moves, if they couldn't got make moves like this TO COMPETE, then they never will again.......not without a couple of really lucky drafts where they happen upon 12 or so STARS at the same time (in two years).

So, it may have failed big time, OK, but if it failed, forget about it and become a Cubbie or Yankee fan.

All of these teams making these moves have payrolls significantly bigger than the Reds do and thus can make mistakes a little easier than the Reds can because they can buy their way out of them a little easier.

Still, the point remains, even if the Reds did make any of those moves, they would still suck, be under .500 and likely not have a future nearly as bright as they do with Cueto/Bruce/Votto.

Patrick Bateman
07-08-2008, 10:22 PM
Trying to compete in a window centred around Griffey was a flawed idea to begin with. Unless the Reds traded all their good prospects to grab Haren, Bedard, and a bat, they wouldn't stack up with the Cubs. To make a real push to win now, it would have to be a "screw the future" approach.

The worst thing they could have done was to trade enough prospects to hinder the future, and at the same time come up short in the now. Something edabbs has stressed, and one of the few points I agree with him on has to do with lining up all of your assets to be at their peak at the same time. It makes more sense to have a 70 win season and a 90 win season rather than two eighty win seasons. Billy Beane has made the same point that it's foolish to be stuck in a continuous 75 win type season.

The Reds were too flawed to compete now, so they are probably best served making a run at the Votto-Bruce-Cueto-Volquez, etc window. Those are the marquee talents of the Reds... use expensive chips and secondary chips to build around those guys. Don't get rid of those guys to accomodate the Griffey's of the world.

So I agree, if the Reds wanted to seriously compete this year, they should have traded all of their prospects to get some big time talents. They had lots of good chips to make a 1-2 year run, but they would be completely screwed after that. That's likely why the Reds didn't do that, as their chips would be best served to accomodate the more talented, better designed core group of players. As such, competing right now really wasn't a realistic goal in the best interest of the franchise. They would have probably been better served to move guys like Arroyo, Dunn, Encarnacion, and secondary pieces to stockpile young talent and make a really strong group for 2009 and beyond.

TRF
07-08-2008, 10:22 PM
I hate the payroll argument. The Reds are a mid payroll team because they want to be not because they have to be. And times have been a changing. That said, I still wouldn't have traded the farm for Haren, Bedard or even Santana. It's not how much you spend, it's how you spend it. Remember the Orioles in the late 90's? Huge payroll, crap team.

Getting Hardin doesn't mean the Cubs win the World Series. It means they have a #1A starter that is a HUGE injury risk that has been on the DL twice this year.

red-in-la
07-08-2008, 10:26 PM
And Doug, if they cannot compete now, don't put it on Cueto/Bruce/Votto to fix it. They will need a whole lot more.

Do you think the Reds will improve if they lose JR, Dunn, Phillips and maybe Harang over the next couple of years? Throw in the fact that you have no use for Hairston or Hopper two guys with at least some chance of hitting. Just who are the others around those few guys you point to that are going to make the future so bright?

As I said over and over again, the Reds, to compete, had to be able to make competitive moves. If you are saying they aren't capable now, maybe they never will be. They either had a chance with a fair amount of talent right now, or they are the Pittsburgh Pirates. Choose your poision.

TRF
07-08-2008, 10:29 PM
And Doung, if they cannot compete now, don't put it on Cueto/Bruce/Votto to fix it. They will need a whole lot more.

Do you think the Reds will improve if they lose JR, Dunn, Phillips and maybe Harang over the next couple of years? Throw in the fact that you have no use for Hairston or Hopper two guys with at least some chance of hitting. Just who are the others around those few guys you point to that are going to make the future so bright?

As I said over and over again, the Reds, to compete, had to be able to make competitive moves. If you are saying they aren't capable now, maybe they never will be. They either had a chance with a fair amount of talent right now, or they are the Pittsburgh Pirates. Choose your poision.

by more do you mean a 3b that can OPS in the upper .800's? check.

How about a closer with shut down abilities? check.

Setup guy just as good as your closer, making just over the league minimum? Check.

How about a LH reliever that is now healthy and dominating.

The Reds have more than three pieces, and I didn't even mention Adam Dunn.

red-in-la
07-08-2008, 10:39 PM
Great point TRF....the Reds are 10.5 back with all that talent AND, the guys they are chasing just managed to get, as their GM says, one of the two impact arms available....oh, and I almost forgot, where did the other one go?

Besides managing a 43-47 record

jojo
07-08-2008, 11:11 PM
As I said over and over again, the Reds, to compete, had to be able to make competitive moves.

Not trading Bruce and Cueto, was a competitive "move" IMHO.

It's probably not possible to sum up everyone's arguments against many of the proposed "blockbuster" trades that some equated with being competitive. Generally though I think it's fair to say the argument was that the Reds would be getting less back than what they'd have to give up. While there may be a time to pull the trigger on a deal like that, given the current talent level, such a trade would've been like standing on a treadmill that was about to slide backwards down a steep incline.


If you are saying they aren't capable now, maybe they never will be. They either had a chance with a fair amount of talent right now, or they are the Pittsburgh Pirates. Choose your poision.

I'd suggest that is a false choice.

LoganBuck
07-08-2008, 11:28 PM
red-in-la, what the heck are you talking about? Do you honestly believe that any of the big much debated moves would have helped the Reds in 2008? Do you think this team would be better off without two of Bruce/Cueto/Votto and even Bailey?

I am baffled as to what your, I told you so argument is?

SteelSD
07-08-2008, 11:34 PM
Wow. That's a great baseball trade for both teams. And frankly, even though the Cubs are rolling the dice that Harden can stay healthy for the season, he's the kind of pitching addition that can throttle other teams in the playoffs. When he's healthy he's one of, if not the, best starting pitcher in the game. Gaudin, while not a dominant reliever by any stretch of the imagination carries additional value due to his ability to start. Kind of a Harden "insurance policy" so to speak. This is a solid short-term medium risk/high reward deal for the Cubs who are busting out all the stops to go for it this season.

From the A's side, Sean Gallagher is the obvious prize, with MiLB rates of 9.02 K/9 and 0.49 HR/9 at 22 years of age. The guy profiles as well, if not better, than our own Johnny Cueto and I'm surprised the Cubs would leverage him in a deal like this, but they're in the "now" so I can understand.

The remainder of the return is very solid as well. The A's got the good Patterson (Eric knows how to take a BB) and Matt Murton is a decent OF who's moving into his age-prime years. Josh Donaldson is a very interesting guy as the lowest-level member of the deal and he's had his good (2007, Boise- 1.075 OPS) and his bad (2008, Peoria- .625 OPS) in similar sample sizes. His reality is likely somewhere in between and that's worth a grab considering the rest of the return is MLB-ready and talented.

The Cubs got what they wanted, and possibly what they needed. However, the A's also received pieces that can help the MLB team right now. Frankly, I'm amazed that the A's continue to mine this kind of return. They have a team that's currently 4th in the AL (6th in MLB) in Run Differential and they just gave up another high-level SP for a return that can help now and over the long-term. Hopefully, the Reds are taking notes.

Jpup
07-09-2008, 12:20 AM
Beane gives away another starter. Imagine that. I sure wish the Reds would have gotten Dan Haren. Oakland's days of being serious contenders are a long, long way away. Billy Beane will be gone before it happens again. You just don't give away starting pitching for "hope".

If Rich Harden is healthy, he will be one of the 3 or 4 best starters in the league.

nate
07-09-2008, 08:51 AM
I'm surprised the Cubs would leverage him in a deal like this, but they're in the "now" so I can understand.

And there is the real point. The Reds weren't in the "now" during the offseason. The Cubs simply needed Harden as a single glove to compete in the "Michael Jackson lookalike contest."

The Reds are still figuring out how to moonwalk.

blumj
07-09-2008, 09:25 AM
Beane gives away another starter. Imagine that. I sure wish the Reds would have gotten Dan Haren. Oakland's days of being serious contenders are a long, long way away. Billy Beane will be gone before it happens again. You just don't give away starting pitching for "hope".

If Rich Harden is healthy, he will be one of the 3 or 4 best starters in the league.

Rich Harden is almost never healthy. But teams like the A's and Twins don't live in the same universe as the rest of us. In their world, good pitchers grow on trees.

jojo
07-09-2008, 09:25 AM
Beane gives away another starter. Imagine that. I sure wish the Reds would have gotten Dan Haren. Oakland's days of being serious contenders are a long, long way away. Billy Beane will be gone before it happens again. You just don't give away starting pitching for "hope".

Yet they stand 8 games over .500 and only 3.5 games out of the wild card. Beane might know what he's doing. Just sayin'....


If Rich Harden is healthy, he will be one of the 3 or 4 best starters in the league.

Yes and if Dunn converts 50% of his strikeouts into hits, he'll be a HOF candidate. :cool:

pahster
07-09-2008, 10:33 AM
Yet they stand 8 games over .500 and only 3.5 games out of the wild card. Beane might know what he's doing. Just sayin'....


Yep. Their record is 49-41 and their pythag is 52-38. They're a very good team.

SteelSD
07-09-2008, 10:44 AM
Yet they stand 8 games over .500 and only 3.5 games out of the wild card. Beane might know what he's doing. Just sayin'....

And with any luck at all given their Run Differential they'd currently be leading their division over the punchless Angels.


Yes and if Dunn converts 50% of his strikeouts into hits, he'll be a HOF candidate. :cool:

A lot of Cubs fans who are now crowing about obtaining Harden seem to have a short memory regarding how frustrating it is to have an extremely talented yet perenially injured starting pitcher (or two) hanging around. Harden has been on the DL twice already this season and I don't think it's any coincidence that Beane moved him after he was able to match his total Start output for the last two years this season.

And like the Haren deal, I'm scratching my head as to how folks appear to be undervaluing the return considering Harden's injury history. Sean Gallagher, despite his picture's resemblance to the paunchy version of Dustin Diamond, is a really good pitching prospect who's actually pitched pretty well for the Cubs. Eric Patterson and Matt Murton are NOT bad baseball players. Even the last piece of the puzzle, Josh Donaldson, is a pretty rare minor league Catcher of interest.

And methinks that lost in all of this is that should the A's continue to find themselves in the race, the additional prospects acquired via Beane's mechanizations put them in a pretty good position to play the "rent-a-hitter" game (and they'll likely need at least one more of those) later this season.

flyer85
07-09-2008, 10:49 AM
Oakland's days of being serious contenders are a long, long way away.

:laugh:

princeton
07-09-2008, 10:54 AM
Krivsky was the only GM more interesting than Beane.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-09-2008, 11:10 AM
I'm terrified that the Cubs are slowly becoming the Boston Red Sox of the NL.

A team with history and tradition that hasn't one the big one forever, finally gets the monkey off it's back and with unlimited payroll and a huge and even now more fervent fanbase goes on a long run of dominance.

I hate to say it, but I can see it coming. I know one thing, I'll have a stake in this year's playoffs.

Rooting for the Cubs to lose so that they don't become the Red Sox of the NL.

blumj
07-09-2008, 11:15 AM
I'm terrified that the Cubs are slowly becoming the Boston Red Sox of the NL.

A team with history and tradition that hasn't one the big one forever, finally gets the monkey off it's back and with unlimited payroll and a huge and even now more fervent fan-base goes on a long run of dominance.

I hate to say it, but I can see it coming. I know one thing, I'll have a stake in this year's playoffs.

Rooting for the Cubs to lose so that they don't become the Red Sox of the NL.
If the Red Sox had made this trade, they'd practically keep Harden in bubble wrap until playoff time. The Cubs might be deep enough to do that, but I don't know if they're smart enough.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-09-2008, 11:18 AM
If the Red Sox had made this trade, they'd practically keep Harden in bubble wrap until playoff time. The Cubs might be deep enough to do that, but I don't know if they're smart enough.

The Red Sox of today maybe, but the Red Sox of four years ago, trying to do anything to get the monkey off their backs, maybe not.

It's amazing what a couple championships in a few years does to the attitude of an organization.

Spring~Fields
07-09-2008, 11:21 AM
I'm terrified that the Cubs are slowly becoming the Boston Red Sox of the NL.

A team with history and tradition that hasn't one the big one forever, finally gets the monkey off it's back and with unlimited payroll and a huge and even now more fervent fanbase goes on a long run of dominance.

I hate to say it, but I can see it coming. I know one thing, I'll have a stake in this year's playoffs.

Rooting for the Cubs to lose so that they don't become the Red Sox of the NL.

The Cardinals have been doing it since at least 2000 forward, and now the Cubbies woke up last year and said, hey, we can afford to play this game, the Reds, well you know.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-09-2008, 11:26 AM
The Cardinals have been doing it since at least 2000 forward, and now the Cubbies woke up last year and said, hey, we can afford to play this game, the Reds, well you know.

Yep. Good times.

blumj
07-09-2008, 11:31 AM
The Red Sox of today maybe, but the Red Sox of four years ago, trying to do anything to get the monkey off their backs, maybe not.

It's amazing what a couple championships in a few years does to the attitude of an organization.
The Red Sox of 4 years ago were pretty careful with Pedro, and the Cubs of today seem to be a little deeper, at least from a distance.

RedsManRick
07-09-2008, 12:11 PM
I think the people who think the Cubs got a steal are failing to account for the incredible risk associated with Harden. This is a guy who has thrown more than 130 IP once, in 2004 at the age of 22. In the last three years he's been on the DL 6 times.

If Harden stays healthy, it's likely the Cubs realize the most value. But the odds of Harden staying healthy aren't that great. Meanwhile, Beane continues to realize that wins added at the bottom your roster count just as much as the ones at the top. He also realizes it's better to trade a guy too early rather than too late. Bronson Arroyo knows what I'm talking about...

flyer85
07-09-2008, 12:17 PM
I think the people who think the Cubs got a steal are failing to account for the incredibly risk associated with Harden. This is a guy who has thrown more than 130 IP once, in 2004 at the age of 22. In the last three years he's been on the DL 6 times.

it is high risk due to the fact of Hardens injury history. It is not risky in the sense that none of the players traded were integral to the Cubs success this year nor are they that important for the future.

I like the deal from the As perspective. After all the injury problems Beane just shined up Harden and got a deal he wanted.

membengal
07-09-2008, 12:40 PM
I think the people who think the Cubs got a steal are failing to account for the incredibly risk associated with Harden. This is a guy who has thrown more than 130 IP once, in 2004 at the age of 22. In the last three years he's been on the DL 6 times.

If Harden stays healthy, it's likely the Cubs realize the most value. But the odds of Harden staying healthy aren't that great. Meanwhile, Beane continues to realize that wins added at the bottom your roster count just as much as the ones at the top. He also realizes it's better to trade a guy too earlier than too late. Bronson Arroyo knows what I'm talking about...

As does Aaron Harang, unfortunately...

bucksfan2
07-09-2008, 12:45 PM
I think the people who think the Cubs got a steal are failing to account for the incredibly risk associated with Harden. This is a guy who has thrown more than 130 IP once, in 2004 at the age of 22. In the last three years he's been on the DL 6 times.

If Harden stays healthy, it's likely the Cubs realize the most value. But the odds of Harden staying healthy aren't that great. Meanwhile, Beane continues to realize that wins added at the bottom your roster count just as much as the ones at the top. He also realizes it's better to trade a guy too earlier than too late. Bronson Arroyo knows what I'm talking about...

As does Aaron Harang, unfortunately...

Yea its a real shame he didn't keep Haren this season they may be in first place. In all fairness to Beane he continues to build teams that look like they are on the verge of competing and then trades them off. It almost seems like Beane doesn't realize how much of a crapshoot it is once you get into the playoffs. Its not always the best team that wins, rather the hottest. But Billy keep trading them off.

flyer85
07-09-2008, 12:53 PM
Yea its a real shame he didn't keep Haren this season they may be in first place.
A's got 2 starting pitchers and a starting CF out the deal, I submit they are better off after the deal

Smith 17 starts 104IP 3.62 ERA
Eveland 18 starts 108IP 3.50 ERA

jojo
07-09-2008, 02:19 PM
A's got 2 starting pitchers and a starting CF out the deal, I submit they are better off after the deal

Smith 17 starts 104IP 3.62 ERA
Eveland 18 starts 108IP 3.50 ERA

Ya. I think sometimes the "big name" clouds the "big picture" when fans discuss the valuation of players.

Spring~Fields
07-09-2008, 07:41 PM
Meanwhile, Beane continues to realize that wins added at the bottom your roster count just as much as the ones at the top. He also realizes it's better to trade a guy too early rather than too late. Bronson Arroyo knows what I'm talking about...

The man appears to be unique in his approach and dealings compared to the majority of his contemporaries.

RedsManRick
07-09-2008, 08:19 PM
The man appears to be unique in his approach and dealings compared to the majority of his contemporaries.

Well, I think we can say that Beane doesn't really give a crap what anybody else thinks about his decisions.

blumj
07-09-2008, 08:25 PM
Well, I think we can say that Beane doesn't really give a crap what anybody else thinks about his decisions.
He doesn't have to worry about job security. It makes a huge difference.

VR
07-09-2008, 08:26 PM
Well, I think we can say that Beane doesn't really give a crap what anybody else thinks about his decisions.

Beane polishes these starters up in the Coliseum expanse, then capitalizes on their peak value to get a bounty of a return.

It's too bad the Reds haven't made that a core principle with their hitters. Plump up those stats at GABP and cash in for higher quality pitching.

RedsManRick
07-09-2008, 08:29 PM
He doesn't have to worry about job security. It makes a huge difference.

I suppose you could make a chicken or the egg argument. However, if you do your job well, as Beane has, you do tend to get the latitude he gets. And Beane didn't do a good job by doing what the media or fans would've liked.

To his credit, Krivksy was likewise trying to be an independent thinker. He just didn't do a very good job of it....

RedsManRick
07-09-2008, 08:32 PM
Beane polishes these starters up in the Coliseum expanse, then capitalizes on their peak value to get a bounty of a return.

It's too bad the Reds haven't made that a core principle with their hitters. Plump up those stats at GABP and cash in for higher quality pitching.

I agree 100%. Hatteberg should have been traded. Aurilia should have been traded. Hairston should be traded.

That said, we don't know that Reds GMs haven't tried. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the same GMs that seem to fall for the pitcher-excels-in-a-pitcher's-park phenomenon don't fall for the same trick when it comes to hitters. They're just so famished for pitching that they're willing to ignore the warning signs. Not so for hitters.

Spring~Fields
07-09-2008, 08:57 PM
Well, I think we can say that Beane doesn't really give a crap what anybody else thinks about his decisions.

He has to be a very intelligent man that has found a niche where he excels. Beane has several successes, and continues to stay focused upon his goals and objectives, that appear to work out well.

jojo
07-09-2008, 08:58 PM
Well, I think we can say that Beane doesn't really give a crap what anybody else thinks about his decisions.

No GM worth his salt is nor should they be.... It's nice when they engage the fans though.

RedsManRick
07-09-2008, 09:01 PM
No GM worth his salt is nor should they be.... It's nice when they engage the fans though.

Agreed. But we both know there are GMs out there whose fear of appearances affects their ability to build the best team.

cincinnati chili
07-09-2008, 11:46 PM
Beane is wrong on occasion (T. Long; E. Chavez's contract), but he's right enough to constantly keep his team in contention. The mere fact that Beane sees something in Gallagher means that we should all take a second look at him. He's only 22 and, unlike Homer Bailey, has actually been good to dominant at every level where he's pitched except the majors (where he's been okay this year). As Steel said, Patterson and Murton are - AT MINIMUM - useful major league players who might be even more than that with time. I don't know the catcher.

SteelSD
07-10-2008, 02:11 AM
Beane is wrong on occasion (T. Long; E. Chavez's contract), but he's right enough to constantly keep his team in contention. The mere fact that Beane sees something in Gallagher means that we should all take a second look at him. He's only 22 and, unlike Homer Bailey, has actually been good to dominant at every level where he's pitched except the majors (where he's been okay this year). As Steel said, Patterson and Murton are - AT MINIMUM - useful major league players who might be even more than that with time. I don't know the catcher.

I honestly don't understand what folks DON'T see in Sean Gallagher. His minor league numbers are excellent. The guy has a solid sinker he can throw around 90 MPH and he can work effectively in the 91-94 MPH range with the ability to fire 95+ when he feels like it's needed. His curve projects to be a plus and potentially a plus-plus pitch at the MLB level. The guy can bring the heater, knows what his effective working range is, and he's cerebral; a pitcher rather than a "thrower" at age 22 with really good stuff. I wouldn't suggest that he's a Brandon Webb-level talent, but he's already demonstrated that he can get MLB hitters out at a very young age. Surely he needs to work on his command, but the A's got a guy who projects really well and who's also been actualized versus MLB hitters with a good deal of success.

Add Murton and Patterson to that versus the promise of an oft-injured Harden and just a fairly decent reliever in Gaudin and you have a good baseball trade that meets the needs of both teams.

REDREAD
07-10-2008, 03:23 PM
I'm terrified that the Cubs are slowly becoming the Boston Red Sox of the NL.
.

When they realigned into 3 divisions, I always figured the Cubs were a huge sleeping giant. It was only a question of when they decided they wanted to win.

I got really worried as they started spending big money on good free agents.
You are right, at this pace, they will use their money to grab the Hardens/Becketts away from the poor teams and build up a talent base that is going to be very tough to compete with.

REDREAD
07-10-2008, 03:26 PM
it is high risk due to the fact of Hardens injury history. It is not risky in the sense that none of the players traded were integral to the Cubs success this year nor are they that important for the future.

I like the deal from the As perspective. After all the injury problems Beane just shined up Harden and got a deal he wanted.

I like the deal for both sides.. The Cubs got a potential impact pitcher for the stretch run and playoffs and a useful relliever/swing guy for 4 guys that don't figure prominently in their long term plans.. The Cubs have money to replace all those guys they gave away easily.

The 4 guys the A's recieved obviously have a lot more value to the A's then they do to the Cubs. Much like the Cleveland CC trade, I think it's smart for a seller at the deadline to take a good offer when presented as opposed to waiting until the 11th hour and possibly getting nothing for a vet they don't want to retain.

REDREAD
07-10-2008, 03:31 PM
I agree 100%. Hatteberg should have been traded. Aurilia should have been traded. Hairston should be traded.
.

In all fairness to Wayne, all three of these guys were signed as castoffs and weren't particularly attractive. Hat and Aruillia had defensive shortcomings and were old.

Harrison is a little more interesting, but there's not going to be a lot of drooling over a 31 year old journeyman that suddenly puts a good 1/2 season together.

Wayne did do a good job of selling high on Pena.

Spring~Fields
07-10-2008, 03:31 PM
I like the deal for both sides.. The Cubs got a potential impact pitcher for the stretch run and playoffs and a useful relliever/swing guy for 4 guys that don't figure prominently in their long term plans.. The Cubs have money to replace all those guys they gave away easily.
The 4 guys the A's recieved obviously have a lot more value to the A's then they do to the Cubs. Much like the Cleveland CC trade, I think it's smart for a seller at the deadline to take a good offer when presented as opposed to waiting until the 11th hour and possibly getting nothing for a vet they don't want to retain.

Win-Win answers both their objectives.

jojo
07-10-2008, 04:59 PM
I honestly don't understand what folks DON'T see in Sean Gallagher. His minor league numbers are excellent. The guy has a solid sinker he can throw around 90 MPH and he can work effectively in the 91-94 MPH range with the ability to fire 95+ when he feels like it's needed. His curve projects to be a plus and potentially a plus-plus pitch at the MLB level. The guy can bring the heater, knows what his effective working range is, and he's cerebral; a pitcher rather than a "thrower" at age 22 with really good stuff. I wouldn't suggest that he's a Brandon Webb-level talent, but he's already demonstrated that he can get MLB hitters out at a very young age. Surely he needs to work on his command, but the A's got a guy who projects really well and who's also been actualized versus MLB hitters with a good deal of success.

Add Murton and Patterson to that versus the promise of an oft-injured Harden and just a fairly decent reliever in Gaudin and you have a good baseball trade that meets the needs of both teams.

I'm not as high on Gallagher as you are as I see him as basically a safe bet to be roughly league average (or a little above in his new environment). He's got three pitches right now that are roughly major league average. His fastball velocity is really just a tick above average (93 mph vs league average of 92 mph) but his excellent command of it makes it a great offering IMHO.

That said he's a really valuable arm because I think he's almost a sure bet to be a middle of the rotation guy and a half a decade of control of that is money in the bank.

Irregardless of minor debates about Gallagher's ceiling, I agree that it's pretty tough to see where those that think the As "got took" are coming from....

nate
07-10-2008, 05:03 PM
Interesting thought from this (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/10/SP9H11ME75.DTL&feed=rss.athletics) article:


There is thought among other clubs that the A's might deal Murton or Patterson.

jojo
07-10-2008, 06:18 PM
Interesting thought from this (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/10/SP9H11ME75.DTL&feed=rss.athletics) article:

Here is also a quote from the same article:


Told that Gallagher will start at the Coliseum on Friday, Angels center fielder Torii Hunter said, "As long as it's not Harden, I'm happy. I'm happy I don't have to face him anymore."

I guess I'd rather face Gallagher than Harden too but then again, Harden's arm might fall off before tomorrow night.... :cool:

blumj
07-10-2008, 06:46 PM
Here is also a quote from the same article:



I guess I'd rather face Gallagher than Harden too but then again, Harden's arm might fall off before tomorrow night.... :cool:

The Angels got lucky, the Red Sox got him 3 times this season.