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44Magnum
07-08-2008, 09:39 PM
Whew! He's hard to watch sometimes. Make that lots of times! :thumbdown

redlegs7089
07-08-2008, 10:19 PM
tell me something we didnt all already know

Nasty_Boy
07-08-2008, 11:09 PM
What has he done tonight? What about Jay Bruce? He's a mess at the plate and he seems to be struggling to make adjustments.

Noosh
07-09-2008, 12:28 AM
This game summed up my frustrations of the entire season in one nice little blowout of a package. At first glance it seems easy to chalk it up as a bad outing for Harang (and he did look TERRIBLE) but there were so many other things piled on top of each other to help the Cubs along.

Defense: At least two runs could have been prevented by competent defense.
1. An actual right fielder gets you an out to lead off the second inning rather than allowing a triple.
2. An actual catcher doesn't have two passed balls (yes one was ruled a wild pitch) in one at-bat to allow a runner from second to score.

Baserunning:
1. Bako lines out to the 2nd baseman and Keppinger is doubled up at second.
2. Keppinger seemingly is able to bloop in a single but it ends in a fielder's choice as Dunn couldn't decide whether it was going to fall.
Now I will say both of these plays were highly unlucky and I don't mean to put too much blame on Dunn or Keppinger, but it just seems like baserunning hurts us every game and I felt like these plays signified a year-long struggle (although I think Dunn could have made it to second safely).

Offense: I don't know where to start.
1. After 4 innings Dempster appeared to be in the same boat as Harang, walking in our first run. He then retired 10 straight batters. Now I'm sure part of it was due to him settling down a little bit and getting into a grove, but I'm confident the Reds' hitters contributed. It seems like our opponents are always able to capitalize on our pitchers' struggles more than we are on their's.
2. The rookie. Bruce's first time up tonight he got hit by a pitch. His next four times up he struckout on bad pitch after bad pitch, and the Cubs started a righty today. I always stop myself from getting too frustrated with Bruce when he strikes out on what seems like a potential wild pitch as I remind myself that he is only 21 years of age, but here's my problem. Not that his BA has dipped below .400:eek:, and not that he is striking out, but how he is striking out. I've heard and understand the argument about how Ks are no less productive than any other type of out, and that hitters like Dunn and Howard shouldn't take more heat because they look uglier getting out than a contact hitter. I'm not upset at Bruce for not putting the ball in play to potentially move a runner over, either. I'm upset at Bruce because the pitches that he swings at make it appear that he doesn't know what he's doing at the plate. I'd like to see flyouts/groundouts from the kid not because I think they are more productive, but because it shows me that he's got a clue of what he's looking for. I would also be happier with a swing and a miss at a ball that is actually in the strikezone. And I don't completely buy into the idea that they've figured out how to pitch to Bruce and he just has to adjust to it. It appears that the way to pitch Bruce is to bounce balls in the dirt and throw them at his eyebrows and you've got a good shot of earning yourself a K. Shouldn't an adjustment have been made to this a long time ago?
*I don't mean to hit the panic button on JB, I'm sure he will be great, it's just that my heart hurts every time he does his Corey Patterson impression. Spot on.

And Pitching: I think even the fans most cynical about our second half chances were still confident that the one thing that was going to be improved was Arroyo and Harang...before today. I suppose Harang listened to the critics that say his problem is throwing too many strikes. OK. Experiment over. Lets put the ball back into the zone again please. Please. Even in giving up two homers today, they could have both been solo shots if not for a leadoff walk in each respective inning.

In summary, I give this team :thumbdown:thumbdown

Javy Pornstache
07-09-2008, 12:36 AM
OMG I know, fer rillz!!!1 If not for Dunn, we coulda beat the Cubs!!! Dunn shouldn't have walked seven Cubs batters and should have hit more when he batted in the 1st-4th and 6th-9th spots in the order!!!

keeganbrick
07-09-2008, 01:10 AM
Yea, Bruce looked awful. Hairston got robbed like 3 times, lol. I honestly just turned it off after the homerun by Soto. We really needed that game because Zambrano will be tough and then we face Lilly and we have no clue what to do against lefties although I think we hit decent against him earlier in the year.

ChatterRed
07-09-2008, 01:17 AM
The Cubs actually might win it all this year. They looked really good with a little help from us.

Jay Bruce actually does have me concerned. He looks terrible at times. And I didn't expect that. Nor did I expect him to hit .300. I figured he hit like .270 while looking promising. He doesn't give me much hope with his bad at-bats.

44Magnum
07-09-2008, 11:59 AM
If Bruce is the worst of the Reds concerns, then they will be OK. However, he's not even the slightest bit of concern for me.

Is it safe to say that Dunn is already ruining Bruce like he did Kearns? Time to move Dunn before it's too late.

I am serious when I say I would never let Dunn or Jr. around a prized prospect!

bgwilly31
07-09-2008, 12:02 PM
What has he done tonight? What about Jay Bruce? He's a mess at the plate and he seems to be struggling to make adjustments.

No complaints here.

reds1869
07-09-2008, 12:06 PM
Is it safe to say that Dunn is already ruining Bruce like he did Kearns? Time to move Dunn before it's too late.

You have got to be kidding me. First Dunn has no leadership ability and has no passion, the next he is ruining every young prospect he touches. The blind hatred for Dun and Jr. astounds me. Yes, Dunn has MASSIVE holes in his game, but blaming him for "ruining" a player who was bound to struggle as a rookie is lunacy. I moved to this city three years ago and have been shocked by the hatred aimed at Dunn and Griffey ever since. Around the league they are generally well thought of by the fans, but not here. Neither one is a dominant force, but come on. They are not the reason this team is terrible. For that reason, look in the FO of the past, not on the field.

RedsFanInBama
07-09-2008, 12:33 PM
I couldn't believe he got forced at second on that blooper by Keppinger. He was actually moving back towards first base when that ball hit the ground. He should have been able to read that ball better than that. Maybe it turns out not to be a big deal, but that play was the difference in one run for sure, plus we had a chance to have Hairston up with the bases loaded instead of Harang making the last out of the inning.

Dunn is a good player with the bat in his hands. Meaning he is productive despite how much he angers me with the strikeouts in bad situations. But when it comes to baserunning and defense he is an absolute nightmare. I'm sure someone will be quick to tell me how those things don't matter as much as hitting, but he is just infuriating to watch play baseball.

Nasty_Boy
07-09-2008, 12:35 PM
If Bruce is the worst of the Reds concerns, then they will be OK. However, he's not even the slightest bit of concern for me.

Is it safe to say that Dunn is already ruining Bruce like he did Kearns? Time to move Dunn before it's too late.

I am serious when I say I would never let Dunn or Jr. around a prized prospect!


Honestly?! How can you say this and believe it? Who is ruining Kearns in Washington?

As for Bruce, right now I am very concerned about the kid. Look at his strikeout numbers, and he's only been up a month. I'm not a person that thinks K's are a big deal unless you aren't working counts and recognizing pitches. Bruce is just hacking away, with no regard for the situation or the count. Last night Hairston walks on 4 pitches to lead off the 8th, Bruce takes a ball and then swings from his heels at a pitch chest high. That is a player without a plan at the plate... I don't know if Dusty and Jacoby have him doing this or they're just letting him go, but I'm worried about what he's doing up there.

Nasty_Boy
07-09-2008, 12:38 PM
I couldn't believe he got forced at second on that blooper by Keppinger. He was actually moving back towards first base when that ball hit the ground. He should have been able to read that ball better than that. Maybe it turns out not to be a big deal, but that play was the difference in one run for sure, plus we had a chance to have Hairston up with the bases loaded instead of Harang making the last out of the inning.

Dunn is a good player with the bat in his hands. Meaning he is productive despite how much he angers me with the strikeouts in bad situations. But when it comes to baserunning and defense he is an absolute nightmare. I'm sure someone will be quick to tell me how those things don't matter as much as hitting, but he is just infuriating to watch play baseball.


That was just bad luck... Even the Brennamen's (who aren't Dunn fans) said there was nothing he could do. If the ball would have been caught and he would have been doubled off first you guys would have ripped him a new one... No matter how well he plays it isn't enough, and when he does mess up it is much worse than if anyone else screws up.

Ahhhorsepoo
07-09-2008, 12:47 PM
I am telling you the approach by dunn in particular has slowed the progress of the young guys, and made griffey even lazier than he was.. I only hope B-Phill doesnt get the sneers josh hamilton got for trying "too hard" and "signing too many autographs".. or if he does I hope he point to the GG he will win, and asks dunn if he knows how to do anything besides swing as hard as he can(which is the first sign Dunn might be getting to B-Phill as well..) and grow a fishing beard..?!

Ahhhorsepoo
07-09-2008, 12:49 PM
Honestly?! How can you say this and believe it? Who is ruining Kearns in Washington?

As for Bruce, right now I am very concerned about the kid. Look at his strikeout numbers, and he's only been up a month. I'm not a person that thinks K's are a big deal unless you aren't working counts and recognizing pitches. Bruce is just hacking away, with no regard for the situation or the count. Last night Hairston walks on 4 pitches to lead off the 8th, Bruce takes a ball and then swings from his heels at a pitch chest high. That is a player without a plan at the plate... I don't know if Dusty and Jacoby have him doing this or they're just letting him go, but I'm worried about what he's doing up there.

It starts in the minors.. I was at a dragons game on sunday night.. and the opposing pitcher walks a guy on 4 straight pitches and the dragons batter goes up and swings at 3 straight.. at least 2 of which were balls.. and it happened EXACTLY the same way later on in the game.. fundamentals + Reds = Error on most calculators..

Ahhhorsepoo
07-09-2008, 12:49 PM
bruce also wont lose all defensive skill.. like dunn did.. ohh wait did he ever have any..?!

Nasty_Boy
07-09-2008, 01:51 PM
All I can say to everything you said is Ahhhorsepoo!

levydl
07-09-2008, 02:04 PM
I am telling you the approach by dunn in particular has slowed the progress of the young guys, and made griffey even lazier than he was.. I only hope B-Phill doesnt get the sneers josh hamilton got for trying "too hard" and "signing too many autographs".. or if he does I hope he point to the GG he will win, and asks dunn if he knows how to do anything besides swing as hard as he can(which is the first sign Dunn might be getting to B-Phill as well..) and grow a fishing beard..?!

You do remember BP's comments about Josh Hamilton, right?

levydl
07-09-2008, 02:06 PM
It starts in the minors.. I was at a dragons game on sunday night.. and the opposing pitcher walks a guy on 4 straight pitches and the dragons batter goes up and swings at 3 straight.. at least 2 of which were balls.. and it happened EXACTLY the same way later on in the game.. fundamentals + Reds = Error on most calculators..

That's probably why he's in low A ball.

Plus, it sounds like that guy's been watching Dunn play. Just by watching him, it will ruin other players, all while he himself goes 40, 100, 100, 100, .900, year after year.

RedsFanInBama
07-09-2008, 02:37 PM
That was just bad luck... Even the Brennamen's (who aren't Dunn fans) said there was nothing he could do. If the ball would have been caught and he would have been doubled off first you guys would have ripped him a new one... No matter how well he plays it isn't enough, and when he does mess up it is much worse than if anyone else screws up.

He tends to have bad luck a lot more than the rest of the Reds.

Nasty_Boy
07-09-2008, 02:40 PM
He tends to have bad luck a lot more than the rest of the Reds.

I think he's under the microscope more than other Reds.

Ahhhorsepoo
07-09-2008, 03:17 PM
You do remember BP's comments about Josh Hamilton, right?

He wasn't saying he was trying too hard.. he was saying josh hamilton took away from the team feel.. signing autographs and trying to be above the team can go hand in hand.. but they are not bound together..

levydl
07-09-2008, 03:51 PM
He wasn't saying he was trying too hard.. he was saying josh hamilton took away from the team feel.. signing autographs and trying to be above the team can go hand in hand.. but they are not bound together..

Where did you see that Dunn resented Hamilton because he tried too hard? Phillips went on record saying Hamilton got too much attention, but in your mind Dunn's the one that drove Josh out of Cincy.

dsmith421
07-09-2008, 03:57 PM
I am telling you the approach by dunn in particular has slowed the progress of the young guys, and made griffey even lazier than he was..

As usual, an ignorant post by someone who doesn't know the first damn thing that happens inside the Reds clubhouse.

Tiresome.

dsmith421
07-09-2008, 03:58 PM
It starts in the minors.. I was at a dragons game on sunday night.. and the opposing pitcher walks a guy on 4 straight pitches and the dragons batter goes up and swings at 3 straight.. at least 2 of which were balls.. and it happened EXACTLY the same way later on in the game.. fundamentals + Reds = Error on most calculators..

Clearly Dunn left some sort of residue in the Dayton dugout that makes our minor league hitters stink.

Is there no end to his malfeasance?

ChatterRed
07-09-2008, 04:09 PM
Clearly Adam Dunn is ruining our minor league players.

Ahhhorsepoo
07-09-2008, 04:20 PM
didn't say dunn did.. NOW PLEASE CLEAN OUT YOUR EARS!!!!

THE approach at the PLATE STARTS IN THE MINORS!!!! in fact since you all obviously didn't comprehend what i was saying by that.. that means IT IS THE REDS who are doing it.. not DUNN..

While Dunn is a bad influence on young guys.. I was saying it starts in the minors.. and continues to player influence in the majors..

Quit putting words in my mouth.. it makes you look far more ignorant than the "words" you put in my mouth!

keeganbrick
07-09-2008, 04:29 PM
Um, you are stating it again in this post, saying Dunn has a negative impact on our younger players............

levydl
07-09-2008, 04:42 PM
didn't say dunn did.. NOW PLEASE CLEAN OUT YOUR EARS!!!!

THE approach at the PLATE STARTS IN THE MINORS!!!! in fact since you all obviously didn't comprehend what i was saying by that.. that means IT IS THE REDS who are doing it.. not DUNN..

While Dunn is a bad influence on young guys.. I was saying it starts in the minors.. and continues to player influence in the majors..

Quit putting words in my mouth.. it makes you look far more ignorant than the "words" you put in my mouth!

Here's what you wrote:


I only hope B-Phill doesnt get the sneers josh hamilton got for trying "too hard" and "signing too many autographs".. or if he does I hope he point to the GG he will win, and asks dunn if he knows how to do anything besides swing as hard as he can(which is the first sign Dunn might be getting to B-Phill as well..) and grow a fishing beard..?!

You said you only hope players don't get on BP for trying too hard. Then you said if he does get sneers like Hamilton did, BP should point to the gold glove he's going to win and ask ADAM DUNN if he knows how to do anything besides swing hard. So, if you didn't imply that Dunn was the one giving Hamilton sneers for playing to hard, why, if the same thing happened to BP, would Phillips respond to Dunn?

That's exactly what you meant. Your words cannot be read any other way.

I also never wrote that you stated that Dunn said he resented Hamilton for trying too hard. I asked you where you saw that, since it was quite obviously implied by your post. So don't put words in my mouth.

Ahhhorsepoo
07-09-2008, 04:46 PM
It was something Hamilton has said many times.. the older guys said..... blah blah blah.. i mean i guess we can think maybe mike stanton and david weathers were the ones saying it....

Ahhhorsepoo
07-09-2008, 04:48 PM
Um, you are stating it again in this post, saying Dunn has a negative impact on our younger players............

He is.. and your not understanding that shows a bigger problem that people think leading by example cant rub off on people in a bad way too....

sorry but the guys still doesn't know what the wall behind him looks like.. its apparent in the way he still doesn't read half the balls off the wall at all.. if they see him getting 13 mil for that.. they think ohh then i am ok doing what i am doing..

levydl
07-09-2008, 05:01 PM
It was something Hamilton has said many times.. the older guys said..... blah blah blah.. i mean i guess we can think maybe mike stanton and david weathers were the ones saying it....

So you do think Dunn was the one that sneered at Hamilton for playing too hard, even after you just went on about me putting words in your mouth.

Now, again, BP went on record complaining Hamilton took too much of the spotlight. Yet you think Dunn was the one who pushed him out. Again, find me just one quote where Hamilton says it was Dunn, or even the older guys. Even in the face of BP's statements, you still assert it was Dunn. It just must be Dunn. I mean, you don't like him, so he must be the origin of all the Reds' probems, from Austin Kearns to Jay Bruce's slump to Griffey's laziness.

reds1869
07-09-2008, 08:27 PM
He didn't have any trouble with the pitch I just saw off of Zambrano.:)

improbus
07-09-2008, 09:29 PM
Look, Cincinnati is not exactly a pressure packed place to play. We get NO national exposure, our local media is fairly forgiving, and there has been very little stability and winning expectaions in the organization over the last 15 years. It is seen as a comfortable place to play so I can understand if the attitude on the team is a little laid back.

If the Reds come in 5th, Marty and Reds fans are the only ones who know or care. If the Sox or Yanks came in 5th, there would be a ESPN round table discussion on the state of baseball. So its only natural for the team to feed off of that, whether that is Dunn, Bruce, or Harang.

captainmorgan07
07-09-2008, 10:13 PM
He may put runs on the board but boy can he give um right back with his terrible defense in left field. The defense effects the pitching on this club tremendously. Balls that are caught by an average defense fall in against this club. This forces pitchers to face more hitters and throw more pitchers than necessary. Pitching and Defense win championships. It's time the Reds went that way.

Jack Burton
07-09-2008, 10:21 PM
What's the opposite of gold glove?

redhawk61
07-09-2008, 10:33 PM
What's the opposite of gold glove?
Adam Dunn

TheBigLebowski
07-09-2008, 10:45 PM
Um....Copper Glove?

Fullboat
07-09-2008, 10:58 PM
Um....Copper Glove?

Nope! Copper has value.........how bout cast iron glove.:D

Road Pop
07-10-2008, 04:52 AM
Dunn looked pretty bad with the ball hovering on top his head. I wanted to wear my St. Patty's Day green hat today, to go with my O'malley's shirt. Guess I should have.

I'm new here. I'm not a Dunn basher by any means, but I hope he looks at that NON catch for awhile. I felt sorry for Cueto. One more out and you're down by one. Easy. :confused:

I't be nice if the Reds could bat a little better than ANYONE'S offense. What are they down to now? 14th?

reds1869
07-10-2008, 08:01 AM
What's the opposite of gold glove?

The Invisible Glove.

44Magnum
07-10-2008, 08:45 AM
Um, you are stating it again in this post, saying Dunn has a negative impact on our younger players............

He clearly does. How could anyone not see that?

Ed Otten
07-10-2008, 10:19 AM
He clearly does. How could anyone not see that?

How could anyone so easily come to that conclusion with no knowledge of the interactions between any of the players? Maybe Dunn has a negative impact, maybe he doesn't, but the point is nobody knows, probably not even the players.

To suggest that kind of knowledge about the cause and effect of interactions of a group of people you only observe in a very narrow situation (on the field) is just silly.

Scientists who spend years and years studying social interactions in a wide range of situations would have difficulty coming to such an extreme conclusion.

If Dunn suddenly ran from left field and tackled Bruce in the middle of the game and started punching him, that would suggest he's having a negative impact.

But short of that, I don't know how you can come to that conclusion so easily. The impact (as far as leadership, motivation, etc.) of one person on another (or others) is not that simple. And a viable conclusion can't be drawn by just watching them play baseball.

Ahhhorsepoo
07-10-2008, 11:21 AM
again another game blown wide open by the lack of anything resembling defense by dunn.. while BP also had a costly error as did Keppinger.. Phillips has done that twice on the year now.. That is the third time in 3 weeks that dunn has either blown the game wide open, or cost them the ultimate winning run, without getting an official error..

anyone who thinks his defense doesn't cost this team more than what he would score on top of a 20/75 guy, with good defense, is STUPID!!!

44Magnum
07-10-2008, 11:44 AM
How could anyone so easily come to that conclusion with no knowledge of the interactions between any of the players? Maybe Dunn has a negative impact, maybe he doesn't, but the point is nobody knows, probably not even the players.

To suggest that kind of knowledge about the cause and effect of interactions of a group of people you only observe in a very narrow situation (on the field) is just silly.

Scientists who spend years and years studying social interactions in a wide range of situations would have difficulty coming to such an extreme conclusion.

If Dunn suddenly ran from left field and tackled Bruce in the middle of the game and started punching him, that would suggest he's having a negative impact.

But short of that, I don't know how you can come to that conclusion so easily. The impact (as far as leadership, motivation, etc.) of one person on another (or others) is not that simple. And a viable conclusion can't be drawn by just watching them play baseball.

Maybe you can't see it, but I along with anyone with a trained baseball eye can see it.

Fon Duc Tow
07-10-2008, 11:48 AM
Wasn't Dunn's easy chair thrown out of the clubhouse a few years ago?

Nasty_Boy
07-10-2008, 12:24 PM
Maybe you can't see it, but I along with anyone with a trained baseball eye can see it.


Trained eye!!! LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nasty_Boy
07-10-2008, 12:26 PM
Wasn't Dunn's easy chair thrown out of the clubhouse a few years ago?


Do you know that every major league clubhouse has recliners? Why does it matter? Hell, it's not like its in the dugout.

Biff Pocoroba
07-10-2008, 01:03 PM
What's the opposite of gold glove?

Michael Jackson's glove?

Ed Otten
07-10-2008, 01:39 PM
Maybe you can't see it, but I along with anyone with a trained baseball eye can see it.

I don't need a trained baseball eye, I have a knowledge of social psychology.

Anyone with that knows it takes more than an "eye", baseball or otherwise, to come to any conclusion about the influence of one person on another.

levydl
07-10-2008, 01:52 PM
I don't need a trained baseball eye, I have a knowledge of social psychology.

Anyone with that knows it takes more than an "eye", baseball or otherwise, to come to any conclusion about the influence of one person on another.

No it doesn't. It's easy: if you don't like Dunn, you begin with the premise that he's the source of all the Reds problems, and then you proceed to identify those problems (for instance, Jay Bruce is in a big slump), and then link them somehow to Adam Dunn (Dunn has a crippling effect on young players like Jay Bruce). It's ironclad, really.

Ed Otten
07-10-2008, 02:10 PM
No it doesn't. It's easy: if you don't like Dunn, you begin with the premise that he's the source of all the Reds problems, and then you proceed to identify those problems (for instance, Jay Bruce is in a big slump), and then link them somehow to Adam Dunn (Dunn has a crippling effect on young players like Jay Bruce). It's ironclad, really.

Touché

Fon Duc Tow
07-10-2008, 04:39 PM
Do you know that every major league clubhouse has recliners? Why does it matter? Hell, it's not like its in the dugout.

Yes but Dunn's recliner in particular I believe was thrown out by management at the time.

I'm asking myself why that sort of thing might happen, especially since like you said, they all have them.

;)

dsmith421
07-10-2008, 09:44 PM
Yes but Dunn's recliner in particular I believe was thrown out by management at the time.

I'm asking myself why that sort of thing might happen, especially since like you said, they all have them.


Clearly it's because Dunn, by his very act of reclining, infects the entire Reds team with the will to fail. Because clearly the talent is there, but if it wasn't for the cruel deceiver DUNN, the Reds would have seven straight pennants.

In fact, once he leaves in free agency, we should get an old priest and a young priest to exorcise the clubhouse. Let his name be stricken from all monuments.

Fon Duc Tow
07-11-2008, 08:22 AM
Clearly it's because Dunn, by his very act of reclining, infects the entire Reds team with the will to fail. Because clearly the talent is there, but if it wasn't for the cruel deceiver DUNN, the Reds would have seven straight pennants.

In fact, once he leaves in free agency, we should get an old priest and a young priest to exorcise the clubhouse. Let his name be stricken from all monuments.


Well I was merely pointing out that Dunn's recliner in particular was removed from the clubhouse for whatever reason a few years ago.

Look, this is Charlie Hustle Town. Of course a guy who doesn't go all out is going to get roasted, even if he puts up good numbers. Same with KGJ, even back when he was putting up good numbers. Same reason this town goes all ga-ga over guys like Freel who put up marginal numbers and make many mistakes, but all is forgiven because of the 110% all the time approach to the game.

Illogical as this may be, it is true nonetheless.

I'm sure Freel's recliner was safe, I'll put it that way.

dsmith421
07-11-2008, 09:27 AM
Look, this is Charlie Hustle Town. Of course a guy who doesn't go all out is going to get roasted, even if he puts up good numbers. Same with KGJ, even back when he was putting up good numbers. Same reason this town goes all ga-ga over guys like Freel who put up marginal numbers and make many mistakes, but all is forgiven because of the 110% all the time approach to the game.

I'm aware of this tendency but usually try to pretend it doesn't exist because it makes our fanbase look utterly clueless.

texasdave
07-11-2008, 11:02 AM
I'm aware of this tendency but usually try to pretend it doesn't exist because it makes our fanbase look utterly clueless.

I am curious as to why you think it makes our fanbase look utterly clueless?
Baseball is entertainment. And, believe it or not, I would guess that the majority of fans in attendance don't live and die with the outcome of each Reds' game. They come to be entertained. And hustle is entertaining. Giving 110% always plays well to the masses. There is nothing wrong with attending a Reds' game simply to be entertained and applauding effort. And there is certainly nothing wrong with booing a lack of effort. There is more than a grain of truth to the old adage, 'It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game'.

dsmith421
07-11-2008, 01:10 PM
I am curious as to why you think it makes our fanbase look utterly clueless?


Overvaluing Ryan Freel and denigrating Ken Griffey would be a good start. The disgraceful way this city treated Eric Davis is another good example.

texasdave
07-11-2008, 01:55 PM
Overvaluing Ryan Freel and denigrating Ken Griffey would be a good start. The disgraceful way this city treated Eric Davis is another good example.

This really doesn't answer the question at all. Like I said before, the fans attend the ballgames for a variety of different reasons. If the majority of fans value hustle more than ability so be it. Baseball is a game. It is entertainment. Don't try to project your values onto the fans as a whole. If fans are entertained by watching the home team try hard, then how can a Ryan Freel be overvalued? Who tries harder? People appreciate that type of effort. On the flip side is it denigrating to boo a person who gives less than full effort over and over and over? I think they have every right to boo such lackadaisical effort. I would guess that you value winning over pretty much everything. But not everyone does. Not even close.

levydl
07-11-2008, 02:07 PM
This really doesn't answer the question at all. Like I said before, the fans attend the ballgames for a variety of different reasons. If the majority of fans value hustle more than ability so be it. Baseball is a game. It is entertainment. Don't try to project your values onto the fans as a whole. If fans are entertained by watching the home team try hard, then how can a Ryan Freel be overvalued? Who tries harder? People appreciate that type of effort. On the flip side is it denigrating to boo a person who gives less than full effort over and over and over? I think they have every right to boo such lackadaisical effort. I would guess that you value winning over pretty much everything. But not everyone does. Not even close.

That's fine, but if you value hustle over winning, then, well, I think he's right, you're clueless. Entertained, maybe, but still clueless.

dsmith421
07-11-2008, 02:39 PM
If fans are entertained by watching the home team try hard, then how can a Ryan Freel be overvalued? Who tries harder? People appreciate that type of effort. On the flip side is it denigrating to boo a person who gives less than full effort over and over and over? I think they have every right to boo such lackadaisical effort. I would guess that you value winning over pretty much everything. But not everyone does. Not even close.

The point is that no one in the stands has half a clue whether a given player is giving his best, other than the appearance of hustle. So pretending like Cincinnati fans are these weathered connoseurs of hustle is just ridiculous.

I wish, as a Reds fan, I had the choice between a team that wins "the right way" and a team that wins "the wrong way" (whatever that means). But after nearly a decade of crap baseball, I'd just like the Reds to win. If it's nine guys slovenly dragging their fat butts out to their position and then slaughtering the other team 95 times a season, that's absolutely fine with me.

For what it's worth, the two players I liked watching the most were Barry Larkin and Eric Davis (and Phillips is getting close). I was suitably entertained by their effortless skill that I didn't need them crashing into walls like a squirrel on a coke binge. Plus they were outstanding, fantastic all-around ballplayers who made their team better.

BLEEDS
07-11-2008, 03:38 PM
I was suitably entertained by their effortless skill that I didn't need them crashing into walls like a squirrel on a coke binge.

For some reason, I REALLY REALLY found this funny, and true.

Is Farney a squirrel?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

dsmith421
07-12-2008, 09:53 PM
If he was really trying, he'd have hit three home runs tonight. What a waster.

HeatherC1212
07-12-2008, 10:02 PM
If he was really trying, he'd have hit three home runs tonight. What a waster.

I know! How dare he only hit two bombs when he could have hit three. ;)