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OnBaseMachine
07-09-2008, 02:03 AM
Jocketty remains quiet about trade plans
Reds' GM has his lips sealed as Trade Deadline approaches
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

CHICAGO -- Trade activity has been generally quiet surrounding the Reds lately, but the CC Sabathia trade from the Indians to the Brewers appears to have unkinked the transaction wire.

With his club only four games under .500 entering Tuesday, Reds general manager Walt Jocketty hasn't publicly indicated whether his team would be buyers or sellers.

"I think things will start opening up more to react to that deal," Jocketty said at Wrigley Field on Tuesday. "I would expect to see things start to move a bit now. I can tell you I have been getting more phone calls."

Meanwhile, the Sabathia trade to the Brewers will have an almost immediate ripple effect on the Reds. He is scheduled to pitch on Sunday vs. Cincinnati after he already worked eight scoreless innings against them for Cleveland on June 27.

"It's a good move on their part," Reds manager Dusty Baker said. "I just wish he had gone to another division. We have a lot of games left with [Milwaukee]."

A short time later, the National League Central-leading Cubs answered the third-place Brewers' trade by acquiring pitcher Rich Harden from the A's in a six-player deal.

The Reds will have 13 potential free agents at season's end, including Adam Dunn and Ken Griffey Jr. There have been no rumors surrounding either star player and interest is believed low. Scouts instead appear to be looking at reliever David Weathers and catcher David Ross. The Marlins, after losing starting catcher Matt Treanor to an injury, are reported to possibly have an increased interest in Ross.

Jocketty would not discuss specific players he could be talking about with other GMs. This could be a big week in determining which route he goes. If the Reds have a good six-game road trip through Chicago and Milwaukee before the All-Star break, the current team could stay intact longer. If it's a bad trip -- players could be more easily jettisoned if there's a match.

"We're trying to win as many games as we can," Jocketty said. "With this team we have, I think we're still a competitive team. We are a team that can continue to play well and get to .500. If there are things we can do to make us better, yeah. We'll look at whatever opportunities are out there that can improve the club in the present and future."

One move that shouldn't be expected is a trade of rotation ace Aaron Harang. A recently published report indicated Harang could be potential trade bait because Jocketty hadn't included Harang on his "untouchables" list. That story was downplayed.

"I don't want to get into who is available or not available," Jocketty said. "You can't ever say you won't talk about anybody. But it's pretty difficult to talk about certain players. And I would put Harang in that category."

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080708&content_id=3093196&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

WVRedsFan
07-09-2008, 02:13 AM
It's really sad that our most expensive players, and I'm not including just Dunn and Griffey at all, are unmovable. I would put those two plus Freel, Gonzalez, and Arroyo are also in this group. Of course, Freel and Gonzalez are on the DL (and lilkely to be for the rest of the season), but our hands are tied. We have expensive corner outfielders who cannot be moved because no one wants them. We have a shortstop who has barely played and a utility man being paid what a position player is paid. I'm sure folks want Bruce or Encarnacion or others (including Weathers and Ross), but no one (and I mean no one) wants Valentin, Patterson, and Bako.

This roster is so messed up. I don't envy Walt Jocketty. This club is poorly put together from the start. It's a testament to someone (and I'm not sure who) that we're only 5 games underr .500.

Jpup
07-09-2008, 03:00 AM
:sleep:

Spring~Fields
07-09-2008, 08:06 AM
Jocketty remains quiet about trade plans

"We're trying to win as many games as we can," Jocketty said. "With this team we have, I think we're still a competitive team. We are a team that can continue to play well and get to .500. If there are things we can do to make us better, yeah. We'll look at whatever opportunities are out there that can improve the club in the present and future."



I already knew this weeks ago.

I already know it next year.

I wonder how many canned speeches and comments I have heard over the years from that organization when they knew they were not in position to do anything to rectify their situations. Their budget, their plan, speaks volumes.

2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013

Investors
Robert H. Castellini - W. Joseph Williams Jr. - Thomas L. Williams
Carl H. Lindner George L. Strike William J. Reik Mrs. Louis Nippert Carl H. Lindner III

Spring~Fields
07-09-2008, 08:26 AM
“He’s a huge addition to our team. That’s a big trade for us. It doesn’t guarantee success or doesn’t guarantee wins, but it sure does make your team that is already pretty good a whole lot better,” Dempster added.


Cubs land pitcher Rich Harden from Athletics
By RICK GANO, AP Sports Writer In this Sept. 18, 2007 file ph…
AP - Jul 8, 7:25 pm EDT

CHICAGO (AP)—One day after the Milwaukee Brewers landed an ace, the Chicago Cubs answered.
Intent on ending their 100-year drought without a World Series title, the NL Central leaders acquired talented right-hander Rich Harden in a six-player deal with the Oakland Athletics on Tuesday.

With CC Sabathia going to Milwaukee, Harden was the best available pitcher, Cubs general manager Jim Hendry said.

“We felt that the two high end guys who would possibly be available were the two that have already been traded. Those are legit one and two starters. So we tried to focus on trying to acquire one,” Hendry said.

“It certainly wasn’t a reaction move. We would have gladly had Rich two or three weeks ago.”

The Cubs began play Tuesday 3 1/2 games ahead of the Cardinals and four in front of the Brewers in the NL Central

The Cubs can now match Milwaukee’s one-two combination of Sabathia and Ben Sheets with All-Star Carlos Zambrano and Harden.
Athletics general manager Billy Beane said trading Harden doesn’t mean his team is in selling mode. Oakland began the day six games behind the first-place Los Angeles Angels in the AL West and 3 1/2 behind the Boston Red Sox in the wild-card race.

“I don’t necessarily think we’ve taken a step back. I think we’ve taken a step forward for the next three to five years,” Beane said. “We were balancing that the club’s playing well but also keeping in mind that we’ve had numerous injuries over the last week. “
Hendry also talked with the Indians about Sabathia and said conversations with Beane about Harden have been ongoing for three or four weeks.

“I knew Rich was going to make his start Sunday, no matter what. At the same time, my chats with (Indians GM) Mark Shapiro, I think if he liked the deal he got he was going to try to do it before CC’s turn. It had nothing to do with the timing,” Hendry added.

“I heard it was going to happen. Still it’s always a surprise,” Harden said. “It’s a bit of a shock but it will be good. They’ve got a good team and a chance of doing something special.“

Chicago also got right-hander Chad Gaudin, who pitched previously for Cubs manager Lou Piniella in Tampa Bay, and sent promising right-hander Sean Gallagher, outfielders Matt Murton and Eric Patterson and minor leaguer Josh Donaldson to the A’s.

Harden, eligible to be a free agent after the 2009 season, is 5-1 with a 2.34 ERA in 13 starts this season. He’s scheduled to make $4.75 million this season.

“We will have the rights for a year and a half, so that’s the other advantage of him not being a free agent,” Hendry said. “He has an option that could vest, or we could pick up the option or we could arbitrate. So he certainly has a chance to be a Cub through the end of next year.”

The oft-injured Harden missed a month earlier this season because of a right shoulder strain. It was his sixth trip to the disabled list in his six-year career.

“Obviously there’s some risk involved. He’s missed some time but he’s never had any surgery,” Hendry said. “We did extensive work with their doctors.”
The Cubs said they expected Harden to join the team Wednesday and pitch either Friday or Saturday at Wrigley Field against the San Francisco Giants.

“This gives us another weapon,” Piniella said. “He’ll fit in here really nice. Let’s keep him healthy and pitching and go from there.”

The Cubs won the NL Central last season but were swept out of the playoffs by Arizona. Without a World Series appearance since 1945 and without a title since 1908, they are obviously making a strong push. The team is also expected to be sold by the end of the season.

“We never looked at it as ‘Oh, we’re going to get in, we’re better than last year, we’ll take our chances if we get in,”’ Hendry said. “There’s a lot of baseball left. We don’t look at it today like we’re getting in for sure. … Our mode all year has been that we will try to get better.”

Gaudin was 5-3 with a 3.59 ERA in 26 games—including six starts for Oakland.
Murton was a former top prospect for the Cubs, but he’s shuttled between Triple-A Iowa and Chicago the past two seasons. He’s hitting .250 in 40 at-bats.
Gallagher is 3-4 with a 4.45 ERA in 12 games, including 10 starts.

“It’s a great opportunity for me to go over there and start every fifth day and keep going,” he said.

Gallagher is expected to start at home Friday against the Angels.

“I’m excited about it,” Athletics manager Bob Geren said of the trade. “We’ve made some great deals the last 12 months and this is another one. (Gallagher is) young and talented and we got a lot of other talent in the deal also. I think it’s going to be another one of these trades where both teams are going to be real happy with it.”

Patterson, the brother of Corey Patterson, was sent to the minors on July 3, and has also been on the frequent shuttle between the Cubs and Triple-A. Patterson was hitting .237 with a homer and seven RBIs in 38 at-bats with the Cubs. He also plays second base.
Donaldson, a catcher for Class A Peoria, was hitting .217 with six homers.

Murton and Patterson will be sent to Triple-A Sacramento. Donaldson may be moved up to Double-A or could be sent to Single A Stockton.

Piniella said the trade should send a message to Cubs fans.

“This shows the Cubs are going to do everything in their power to get where we want to go,” he said.

AP Freelance Writer Mike Wagaman in Oakland contributed to this story.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Am7BrV7MYjLrJrV9LotxYbARvLYF?slug=ap-cubs-athleticstrade&prov=ap&type=lgns

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20080709/capt.724fed87e69644e3bc7448f56f2dfcc6.reds_cubs_ba seball_cxc115.jpg

edabbs44
07-09-2008, 08:52 AM
I already knew this weeks ago.

I already know it next year.

I wonder how many canned speeches and comments I have heard over the years from that organization when they knew they were not in position to do anything to rectify their situations. Their budget, their plan, speaks volumes.

2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013

Investors
Robert H. Castellini - W. Joseph Williams Jr. - Thomas L. Williams
Carl H. Lindner George L. Strike William J. Reik Mrs. Louis Nippert Carl H. Lindner III


Nothing good will happen until this team makes a decision on its identity...are they going to honestly try and win now, or are they going to try and win later?

Trying to do both is tough to do, as evidenced by the current situation.

RichRed
07-09-2008, 10:16 AM
I can tell you I have been getting more phone calls."

Here's hoping Walt has one of them newfangled two-way phones, you know, the kind that calls out too.

Spring~Fields
07-09-2008, 10:34 AM
Nothing good will happen until this team makes a decision on its identity...are they going to honestly try and win now, or are they going to try and win later?

Trying to do both is tough to do, as evidenced by the current situation.

The real Reds team is winning, and have been winning for some time. It is not about winning baseball games, it is about winning in the investment arena.

Baseball is big boys toys Edabbs.

These guys could buy and sell whoever they wanted to be on the baseball team, if they wanted to. Wait? for what? Do you think these guys could not compete with the Cubbies, and Cardinals if they wanted ?

Friday, March 17, 2006
Insider
Bases loaded

Wealth, influence fill Reds ownership lineup
Business Courier of Cincinnati - by Dan Monk

Forget the pennant. The Cincinnati Reds' new ownership group has enough money, brainpower and clout to start a small city.

The group includes three Fortune 500 CEOs and six whose privately held companies rank among Cincinnati's 115 largest.

The companies represented by these investors generate more than $62 billion in annual revenue. They give at least $5 million a year to charity and have lots of political clout.

Some of the Reds' newest investors bought stakes on their own.

Others formed investment partnerships in which the lead investor speaks for the group and shares ownership perks and capital calls on a pro-rata basis. At least 44 people own a piece of the action, according to our research.

The group is larger than that, but we left out names we could not confirm.
Bob Castellini: President of Castellini Co., a fruit and vegetable wholesaler, he became the Reds' CEO Jan. 19. Castellini's ownership group paid about $270 million to acquire the team, financing the purchase with roughly $100 million in debt and the sale of investment units, each costing $6.5 million.

W. Joseph Williams: The chairman of North American Properties also carries the chairman title with the Reds. The company develops retail and apartment properties in six states. Florence and Northgate malls are among its notable Cincinnati projects, although it no longer owns either property.

Tom Williams: The president of North American Properties is also the brother of W. Joseph Williams. Their father was a controlling owner of the Reds from 1982 to 1984. Tom is now the team's vice chairman and treasurer.

Carl Lindner Jr. and Carl Lindner III: Lindner Jr. became a minority investor in the Reds in 1981, and controlling owner in 1999. Until last year, he owned about 37 percent of the ballclub. Now, he and his son hold 7.88 percent.

Louise Nippert: Nippert's late husband, Louis, bought 90 percent of the Reds in the late 1960s, selling a controlling interest to the Williams family in 1982. In January, Nippert sold her remaining 29 percent stake, then bought back 3.94 percent.

William Reik: Reik is a managing director at William D. Witter Inc., an investment advisory firm in New York. He's a director of Frisch's Restaurants Inc. and has owned a piece of the Reds since 1986. His ownership went from 11 percent to 7.88 percent in the new regime.

George Strike: Strike, a former chairman of American Laundry Machine Co., became a Reds owner in 1988. He's a 3.94 percent owner under Castellini, down from 12 percent under Lindner.

Larry Sheakley: Sheakley founded a workers' comp administration company in 1963, but has since branched into other employee benefits.Local broadcasting executive Bobby Lawrence owns a piece of Sheakley's stake.

Jack Wyant: This former Procter & Gamble executive has raised four venture capital funds totaling $600 million since starting Blue Chip Venture Co. in 1992. He is said to have partners, but could not be reached.

Harry Fath: Fath's downtown-based property management company owns 36 apartment communities in Cincinnati and Dallas, comprising more than 9,000 apartment units.

Jeff Wyler: The local auto dealer and UC trustee now spends much of his time in Naples, Fla. He also invests in a NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series racing team.

Steve Cobb: The Henny Penny Corp. CEO made his fortune selling high-end restaurant equipment. Cobb formed EMK Investment Corp. to buy a Reds stake, possibly with family members.

Ronald Sargent: A lifelong Reds fan who grew up in Northern Kentucky, this Staples Inc. CEO sought out Castellini when he heard the new Reds owner was selling minority shares in the team.

Jeffrey Gendell: A Wyoming native and son of a Procter & Gamble executive, Gendell runs a $1 billion hedge fund under the name Tontine Associates. He owns roughly 10 percent stakes in AK Steel and CECO Environmental.

Nick Ragland: Howard "Nick" Ragland is an in-law to Batesville's Hillenbrand family and owner of the Gorilla Glue Co. in Fairfax. Ragland formed a partnership in which his children share the Reds stake.

Ed Rigaud: A former P&G executive, now CEO of Enova Partners, he leads a 17-member group, 13 of whom are black. The group includes Ross Love, Ken Blackwell, Nathaniel Jones, Terry Atwater, Carl Satterwhite and Scott Robertson.

George Vincent: The Hamilton County GOP chairman has seven partners, including P&G elites A.G. Lafley, James Johnson and Mike Ryan; Vincent's law partner, Frank Woodside; Tom Neyer Jr.; and Dr. David Schneider.

David Drees: The CEO of Cincinnati's largest privately held company teamed up with his father, Kenton County Judge Executive Ralph Drees, to buy a 3.94 percent stake.

Art Hauser: This '60s vintage NFL lineman is founder of the Hauser Group, a Blue Ash-based insurance brokerage. Hauser is a Castellini pal, said to have teamed up with other investors to buy a piece of the Reds.


http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2006/03/20/tidbits

http://reds.enquirer.com/1999/04/21/red_lindner_group_buys.html

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/09/23/biz_peale.23.html

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/reds/2005-11-02-lindner-sale_x.htm?POE=SPOISVA

http://www.forbes.com/2005/03/09/0309autofacescan04_print.html

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/2005_10_30_default.asp

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/content/printer_friendly/cin/y2005/m11/d02/c1263786.jsp
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060119&content_id=1298106&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Trust me edabbs, baseball stats take a back seat to the FINANCIALS.

Oh my but how we fans, myself included grown.

But Dunn’s contract, Griffey’s contract, the Reds can’t afford pitching clear back to the Bowden days, and the money that Krivsky wasted on contracts, oh the Reds can’t afford this, or that, oh my the fans grown.

These guys are not concerned with the contracts.

While the statisticians calculators, slide rules and spreadsheets smoking are smoking with compulsive obsessive dedication to find out, the answers alike, with the rest of the fans who sit on the edge of their seats year after year waiting for the slightest news that their favorite team might have made that one big trade. Only to find filler and fodder in their stockings after the winter meetings.

The big trade,

They do everyday, in their stock portfolios.

jojo
07-09-2008, 10:57 AM
The real Reds team is winning, and have been winning for some time. It is not about winning baseball games, it is about winning in the investment arena.

Baseball is big boys toys Edabbs.

These guys could buy and sell whoever they wanted to be on the baseball team, if they wanted to. Wait? for what? Do you think these guys could not compete with the Cubbies, and Cardinals if they wanted ?

Friday, March 17, 2006
Insider
Bases loaded

Wealth, influence fill Reds ownership lineup
Business Courier of Cincinnati - by Dan Monk

Forget the pennant. The Cincinnati Reds' new ownership group has enough money, brainpower and clout to start a small city.

The group includes three Fortune 500 CEOs and six whose privately held companies rank among Cincinnati's 115 largest.

The companies represented by these investors generate more than $62 billion in annual revenue. They give at least $5 million a year to charity and have lots of political clout.

Some of the Reds' newest investors bought stakes on their own.

Others formed investment partnerships in which the lead investor speaks for the group and shares ownership perks and capital calls on a pro-rata basis. At least 44 people own a piece of the action, according to our research.

The group is larger than that, but we left out names we could not confirm.
Bob Castellini: President of Castellini Co., a fruit and vegetable wholesaler, he became the Reds' CEO Jan. 19. Castellini's ownership group paid about $270 million to acquire the team, financing the purchase with roughly $100 million in debt and the sale of investment units, each costing $6.5 million.

W. Joseph Williams: The chairman of North American Properties also carries the chairman title with the Reds. The company develops retail and apartment properties in six states. Florence and Northgate malls are among its notable Cincinnati projects, although it no longer owns either property.

Tom Williams: The president of North American Properties is also the brother of W. Joseph Williams. Their father was a controlling owner of the Reds from 1982 to 1984. Tom is now the team's vice chairman and treasurer.

Carl Lindner Jr. and Carl Lindner III: Lindner Jr. became a minority investor in the Reds in 1981, and controlling owner in 1999. Until last year, he owned about 37 percent of the ballclub. Now, he and his son hold 7.88 percent.

Louise Nippert: Nippert's late husband, Louis, bought 90 percent of the Reds in the late 1960s, selling a controlling interest to the Williams family in 1982. In January, Nippert sold her remaining 29 percent stake, then bought back 3.94 percent.

William Reik: Reik is a managing director at William D. Witter Inc., an investment advisory firm in New York. He's a director of Frisch's Restaurants Inc. and has owned a piece of the Reds since 1986. His ownership went from 11 percent to 7.88 percent in the new regime.

George Strike: Strike, a former chairman of American Laundry Machine Co., became a Reds owner in 1988. He's a 3.94 percent owner under Castellini, down from 12 percent under Lindner.

Larry Sheakley: Sheakley founded a workers' comp administration company in 1963, but has since branched into other employee benefits.Local broadcasting executive Bobby Lawrence owns a piece of Sheakley's stake.

Jack Wyant: This former Procter & Gamble executive has raised four venture capital funds totaling $600 million since starting Blue Chip Venture Co. in 1992. He is said to have partners, but could not be reached.

Harry Fath: Fath's downtown-based property management company owns 36 apartment communities in Cincinnati and Dallas, comprising more than 9,000 apartment units.

Jeff Wyler: The local auto dealer and UC trustee now spends much of his time in Naples, Fla. He also invests in a NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series racing team.

Steve Cobb: The Henny Penny Corp. CEO made his fortune selling high-end restaurant equipment. Cobb formed EMK Investment Corp. to buy a Reds stake, possibly with family members.

Ronald Sargent: A lifelong Reds fan who grew up in Northern Kentucky, this Staples Inc. CEO sought out Castellini when he heard the new Reds owner was selling minority shares in the team.

Jeffrey Gendell: A Wyoming native and son of a Procter & Gamble executive, Gendell runs a $1 billion hedge fund under the name Tontine Associates. He owns roughly 10 percent stakes in AK Steel and CECO Environmental.

Nick Ragland: Howard "Nick" Ragland is an in-law to Batesville's Hillenbrand family and owner of the Gorilla Glue Co. in Fairfax. Ragland formed a partnership in which his children share the Reds stake.

Ed Rigaud: A former P&G executive, now CEO of Enova Partners, he leads a 17-member group, 13 of whom are black. The group includes Ross Love, Ken Blackwell, Nathaniel Jones, Terry Atwater, Carl Satterwhite and Scott Robertson.

George Vincent: The Hamilton County GOP chairman has seven partners, including P&G elites A.G. Lafley, James Johnson and Mike Ryan; Vincent's law partner, Frank Woodside; Tom Neyer Jr.; and Dr. David Schneider.

David Drees: The CEO of Cincinnati's largest privately held company teamed up with his father, Kenton County Judge Executive Ralph Drees, to buy a 3.94 percent stake.

Art Hauser: This '60s vintage NFL lineman is founder of the Hauser Group, a Blue Ash-based insurance brokerage. Hauser is a Castellini pal, said to have teamed up with other investors to buy a piece of the Reds.


http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2006/03/20/tidbits

http://reds.enquirer.com/1999/04/21/red_lindner_group_buys.html

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/09/23/biz_peale.23.html

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/reds/2005-11-02-lindner-sale_x.htm?POE=SPOISVA

http://www.forbes.com/2005/03/09/0309autofacescan04_print.html

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/2005_10_30_default.asp

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/content/printer_friendly/cin/y2005/m11/d02/c1263786.jsp
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060119&content_id=1298106&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Trust me edabbs, baseball stats take a back seat to the FINANCIALS.

Is there a franchise in mlb where this isn't the rule rather than the exception?

This is true even in New York and Boston-they can take on the "bad" contracts of others because they know it will help then leverage their huge money making media networks.

Concerning recent Reds history, I'd place incompetence much higher on the list of potential starting points than "show me the money".

SteelSD
07-09-2008, 11:03 AM
Nothing good will happen until this team makes a decision on its identity...are they going to honestly try and win now, or are they going to try and win later?

Oh, I think the Reds have a great idea of their identity. Next year's slogan:

"We're going to win now, later!"

Alternately:

"Don't close the door on us missing our window!"

Spring~Fields
07-09-2008, 11:08 AM
Oh, I think the Reds have a great idea of their identity. Next year's slogan:

"We're going to win now, later!"

Alternately:

"Don't close the door on us missing our window!"

In the mean time !

Piniella said the trade should send a message to Cubs fans.

“This shows the Cubs are going to do everything in their power to get where we want to go,” he said.

“We’ve just come to a point where we’re not going to lose anymore,” Reds owner Bob Castellini said emphatically."
http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2008/04/24/sportsextra/doc480f675334e58148273434.txt

REDREAD
07-09-2008, 11:16 AM
This roster is so messed up. I don't envy Walt Jocketty. This club is poorly put together from the start. It's a testament to someone (and I'm not sure who) that we're only 5 games underr .500.

Yes, it's a tough job ahead of him. And the tough thing going into next year is that his two expensive corner OF which apparently are in low demand are going to be VERY difficult to replace next year. I hope Hopper/Freel aren't the starting LF next year, but that could very well be possible, due to lack of better options.

The Reds really don't have a surplus of anything to trade, other than perhaps pitching prospects. I'm starting to think that Walt may have to trade Homer and Thompson in order to shore up the lineup.

Spring~Fields
07-09-2008, 11:30 AM
Yes, it's a tough job ahead of him. And the tough thing going into next year is that his two expensive corner OF which apparently are in low demand are going to be VERY difficult to replace next year. I hope Hopper/Freel aren't the starting LF next year, but that could very well be possible, due to lack of better options.

The Reds really don't have a surplus of anything to trade, other than perhaps pitching prospects. I'm starting to think that Walt may have to trade Homer and Thompson in order to shore up the lineup.

You once made a case to defend Bowden on the bases of finance, which was correct, but since it was Bowden I was not willing to support or agree to your points. All I am saying is what happened to Bowden, happened to those that followed him, and will happen to Mr. Jocketty also, without the modern time funding that a major league baseball team requires.

IF the years since the disparity widened 2000-2008 among the immediate competitors in the Reds division and the Reds, mean what they have shown us.

I know that you know, that Bowden use to win, when the team was properly funded in the 90's with less disparity among competitors.

Kc61
07-09-2008, 11:44 AM
I think the Reds have failed to make the necessary bold moves to restructure the major league team. They now face losing Griffey and Dunn with no real return and no obvious plan for replacing them with high level players. The Reds have made major league moves over the years, but they always are piecemeal, adding a piece here, subtracting a piece here. You never get the feeling that the team is being re-structured to fit the GM's vision.

Starting with this trade deadline, still another GM, Jocketty, will have the ability to change the ballclub in a significant way. We'll see if he does over the next seven or eight monts. He has two advantages -- first, a good track record, and second, Dunn and Griffey are free agents so he can't just tread water with them.

If in 2009 it's the same team with a new relief pitcher or a new fifth starter or a couple of good utility players signed to minor league deals, it may be time to tune out.

jojo
07-09-2008, 11:52 AM
You once made a case to defend Bowden on the bases of finance, which was correct, but since it was Bowden I was not willing to support or agree to your points. All I am saying is what happened to Bowden, happened to those that followed him, and will happen to Mr. Jocketty also, without the modern time funding that a major league baseball team requires.

IF the years since the disparity widened 2000-2008 among the immediate competitors in the Reds division and the Reds, mean what they have shown us.

I know that you know, that Bowden use to win, when the team was properly funded in the 90's with less disparity among competitors.

If the Reds are in the predicament that they are in because of payroll disparities, how can the fact that the Diamondbacks, As, Marlins, Rays, and Twins are playoff contenders be explained? All have payrolls that are smaller than the Reds (in some cases staggeringly so) while having teams within their divisions that have a payroll of at least $118M.

Spring~Fields
07-09-2008, 12:00 PM
If the Reds are in the predicament that they are in because of payroll disparities, how can the fact that the Diamondbacks, As, Marlins, Rays, and Twins are playoff contenders be explained? All have payrolls that are smaller than the Reds (in some cases staggeringly so) while having teams within their divisions that have a payroll of at least $118M.

Separate entities. Different investors, different goals and objectives.

I suggest that you interview them, it is probably in their archives somewhere.

I am sorry, I don’t have time to teach finance and accounting here, looking it up in the archives here might do you some good.

RedlegJake
07-09-2008, 12:19 PM
Wow, JoJo didn't deserve that answer.

His point is simply that the teams named are competing on a lot less dollars in divisions with high payroll teams. Something the Reds fail to do and that has NOTHING to do with accounting or finance but a lot to do with competent management.

jojo
07-09-2008, 12:23 PM
His point is simply that the teams named are competing on a lot less dollars in divisions with high payroll teams. Something the Reds fail to do and that has NOTHING to do with accounting or finance but a lot to do with competent management.

Right. To me it's the very first question suggested by an argument that points to payroll.

Or to put it another way, if payroll disparity can be overcome as has been shown by by a growing number of teams year after year, why can't the Reds overcome it? In fact, why shouldn't the Reds be expected to overcome it?

flyer85
07-09-2008, 12:25 PM
Funny thing that every time Beane deals one of his studs the naysayers predict the end of the A's yet all they do is continue to compete year after year with a small payroll.

jojo
07-09-2008, 12:28 PM
I am sorry, I don’t have time to teach finance and accounting here, looking it up in the archives here might do you some good.

I'm not asking you to teach finance and accounting but rather asking you to challenge your own assumptions about how they relate to the Reds FO.....

Reds1
07-09-2008, 01:02 PM
It's a testament to someone (and I'm not sure who) that we're only 5 games underr .500.

Volquez and Cueto. If we don't get these two we are probably the worst record in baseball!

Jpup
07-09-2008, 01:12 PM
Funny thing that every time Beane deals one of his studs the naysayers predict the end of the A's yet all they do is continue to compete year after year with a small payroll.

When is the last time they made the playoffs? Competing don't get it done for me.

flyer85
07-09-2008, 01:14 PM
When is the last time they made the playoffs? my guess is that it is less distant than the Reds last playoff apearance.

flyer85
07-09-2008, 01:17 PM
BTW, the answer is 2006 and the A's have made the playoffs 5 times since the Reds last appearance(1995).

In addition the A's have had one losing season in the last 10 years(1999-2008)

Jpup
07-09-2008, 01:20 PM
my guess is that it is less distant than the Reds last playoff apearance.

What the A's do has nothing to do with the Reds. I think Billy Beane has lost his mind trading his big arms for little return. Haren and Harden are 2 of the best pitchers in baseball. Beane sure didn't get a Matt LaPorta.

Watch the A's play, they certainly won't be making the playoffs anytime soon.

flyer85
07-09-2008, 01:29 PM
Beane sure didn't get a Matt LaPorta.
he did get 2 young LH starting pitchers that both have pitched over 100 innings to this point with ERA under 3.7. Beane is not about stockpiling names ... just talent. Thats why in a season where his only true All Star type position player(Chavez) has hardly played they are still 8 games over and in the hunt for a ploff spot.

Jpup
07-09-2008, 01:34 PM
he did get 2 young LH starting pitchers that both have pitched over 100 innings to this point with ERA under 3.7. Beane is not about stockpiling names ... just talent. Thats why in a season where his only true All Star type position player(Chavez) has hardly played they are still 8 games over and in the hunt for a ploff spot.

Rich Harden had also pitched pretty well. That's a big blow to your rotation. I usually pull for the A's but when I see a team giving away talent, I can't get behind that. They don't think much of the guys coming through the gate. There is also no way the A's will make the playoffs. They can't touch LA or Boston.

flyer85
07-09-2008, 01:39 PM
Rich Harden had also pitched pretty well. That's a big blow to your rotation. just like losing Haren ... who was replaced by 2 major league ready starters and as a bonus they have one of the best pitching prospects in the minors(Anderson).

Harden, with his history, was not a good bet to finish the season without a trip to the DL, has been replaced by a young guy(with no injury history) ready to pitch in the majors. In addition he got more interchangeable parts for the roster(which has what has kept the A's afloat this season).

Wouldn't be surprised to see the As make an offer for Dunn.

OldXOhio
07-09-2008, 01:43 PM
There is also no way the A's will make the playoffs. They can't touch LA or Boston.

Who says they have to? At this point, they only have to keep pace with DET and NYY.

And I won't doubt Beane until he shows an inability to craft a winner. So far that hasn't happened.

flyer85
07-09-2008, 01:46 PM
The trade of Harden doesn't signal the A's are throwing in the towel. Beane was simply cashing in his chips(before the next injury) ... similar to the Reds trading Hamilton.

Jpup
07-09-2008, 01:51 PM
Who says they have to? At this point, they only have to keep pace with DET and NYY.

Tampa?

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2008, 02:05 PM
* Adam Dunn hasn’t yet been made available, though most teams think he could be had for the right offer. The problem is that no one seems to agree on what the right offer is. One FOT tells me that the Reds want well more than the draft pick compensation, looking for a “top guy.” Dunn would be a great fit in Arizona, but no one seems to think that’s going to happen.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=935

flyer85
07-09-2008, 02:14 PM
* Adam Dunn hasn’t yet been made available... this week should remedy that situation and the charade known as the 2008 Reds.

OldXOhio
07-09-2008, 02:28 PM
Tampa?

yes sort of forgot about them - good point. The original idea remains the same: at this time, OAK is not an elite team in the AL, and they may not necessarily need to be one to make the playoffs.

Jpup
07-09-2008, 03:07 PM
yes sort of forgot about them - good point. The original idea remains the same: at this time, OAK is not an elite team in the AL, and they may not necessarily need to be one to make the playoffs.

They will have to be in 2008 IMO.

LoganBuck
07-09-2008, 03:16 PM
If Oakland can stay afloat for two more weeks would they:
1. Be interested in Dunn?
2. What could the realistically offer for Dunn?

red-in-la
07-09-2008, 04:36 PM
If the Reds are in the predicament that they are in because of payroll disparities, how can the fact that the Diamondbacks, As, Marlins, Rays, and Twins are playoff contenders be explained? All have payrolls that are smaller than the Reds (in some cases staggeringly so) while having teams within their divisions that have a payroll of at least $118M.

There are exceptions to most any rule......one plan has always been to wait to be one of the few exceptions. Takes the patience of a rock in the garden and the wisdom of Solomon to not go crazy.

Another good plan is to follow the Braves/Rays plan. Be the laughing stock of baseball for 10-15 years, build a farm system full of top draft choices and hope you don't stay the laughing stock of baseball (ala the Pirates and Brewers (bucket heads?)).

Then there is the Twins, A's, Marlins and D'Backs plan which is something of a mix of other plans with some FO savvy thrown in.

Oh, for the D'Backs, A's and Twins, you must also choose to be in a division with some other BIG market teams with really rotten owners/leadership.

So, Reds fans, which should/have the Reds choose? Seems to me that they have clearly chosen the Pirates model......but maybe that is just me being pessimistic.

jojo
07-09-2008, 05:14 PM
So, Reds fans, which should/have the Reds choose? Seems to me that they have clearly chosen the Pirates model......but maybe that is just me being pessimistic.

Unfortunately, if that is indeed the case, the Pirates have recently abandoned that model in favor of one more in tune with the way the teams that are bucking the "financial divide" seem to be going...


Another good plan is to follow the Braves/Rays plan. Be the laughing stock of baseball for 10-15 years, build a farm system full of top draft choices and hope you don't stay the laughing stock of baseball (ala the Pirates and Brewers (bucket heads?)).

It's been popular so far this year to dismiss Tampa as a franchise that has collected high draft picks with their fingers crossed but a deeper inspection of their recent history suggests a much more elaborate plan/philosophy has guided them to their present situation.

I do agree with the notion that "there are more ways than one to skin a cat". So accepting that and the ample examples of teams overcoming payroll disparity, should the Reds should get a flyer for their payroll?

Spring~Fields
07-09-2008, 07:37 PM
Then there is the Twins, A's, Marlins and D'Backs plan which is something of a mix of other plans with some FO savvy thrown in.




:clap::clap::clap:

RedsManRick
07-09-2008, 08:39 PM
Frankly, I don't care which path the Reds take to success. The bottom line is that our financial situation does not preclude success (as evidenced many times over) and the Reds have not described nor demonstrated any approach which has worked for comparably funded teams.

Put quite simply: It can be done, but the Reds aren't doing it.

There is no path to success which includes botching 90% of your first round picks, developing just one impact (above average) player in the course of a decade, failing to capitalize on your best assets in the trade market, and overpaying mediocre players via extensions and free agent contracts.

The Reds have done a few more things right in the last 2-3 years than they had in the prior 10, but it's hardly enough. The Reds need to accelerate their rate of organizational improvement or they will never catch up. Jocketty's actions in the next 8 months should tell us a whole bunch about where this organization is headed.

Spring~Fields
07-09-2008, 08:53 PM
Put quite simply: It can be done, but the Reds aren't doing it.



Exactly, and for a very long time.

GAC
07-09-2008, 09:41 PM
Another good plan is to follow the Braves/Rays plan. Be the laughing stock of baseball for 10-15 years, build a farm system full of top draft choices and hope you don't stay the laughing stock of baseball (ala the Pirates and Brewers (bucket heads?)).

Teams like the Rays, Marlins, Pirates, As, Royal, Twins, Brewers, and Reds have no other choices (alternatives) other then to emphasize recruiting, scouting, and building through the farm systems. The don't have the financial resources to get into a "spending war" with organizations like NY, Boston, Chicago, who, when they want to fill a need can simply go out and acquire it. They can even take risks on contracts because of those financial resources available to them.

IMO... the Reds, as far as yearly payroll (73 mil), are in the middle of the pack. They are not like the top tier organizations (100+ mil/yr) or the bottom feeders (30/40 mil/yr).

Spending alone (high payroll) does not guarantee success. Take a good hard look at the current Seattle Mariners (115 mil) for example. Or the Baltimore Orioles. You have to be able to identify and spend the money wisely.

But since the days of Branch Rickey, a team's success was rooted in the strength of their farm system. It always has been.

And the current economic situation (disparity) that has evolved in MLB over the last 15 years validates that point even more IMO.

The Reds, over the last decade or so, have struck out in both of those points..... bad spending and a bad farm system. That is a recipe for disaster.

We spend (commit) huge amounts of our yearly payroll on a few players, and round out the rest of the roster, due to whats left within the payroll budget, with whatever we can scrounge up. Its why we are trying to make starters (everyday) players out of guys like a Freel, Hairston, and a host of other "rejects" from around baseball.

The Oakland As have a comparable payroll to the Reds. Yet how are they able to consistently compete?

An organizational structure/system that not only emphasizes developing young talent; but also has the people in place within that structure that KNOW how to do it.

I think the Reds were starting to head in that direction in the last few years, as far as the farm system goes.

But turning around a farm system is not something that is accomplished overnight. Especially when it's been pretty barren to begin with, with few bright spots (a Dunn here, a Bruce there).

You have to get it to the stage where it's a consistent source. And not just a source of supply for your roster alone; but ALSO as a source of sund trading chips when needed.

Again - the Reds don't have that.

The Brewers just acquired (rented) Sabbathia, and gave up some prospects to do so. One was LaPorta. Now some my be on either side of this deal; but my point is this.....

If your farm system is sound enough to begin with, then it can withstand or hold up from such a trade. Especially if that trade (rental) gets you into the post-season.

MikeS21
07-10-2008, 12:00 AM
I agree with GAC 100%. You build your core through your farm system. Trade acquisitions and free agents are only added to fill in holes.

One lesson Reds fans need to learn from the A's and Indians is that you shouldn't get too attached to any one player once they start getting expensive. Those organizations have learned that you HAVE to trade the McGuire's, the Zito's, the Thome's, and the Sabbathia's in order sustain success. You keep them until they are too expensive to keep, and then you trade them for prospects, and replace them in the lineup with prospects.

Have the Reds developed such a pipeline yet? No. The recent drafts have been encouraging, but I'm not too confident about development. It would seem to me that rather than trying to extend Adam Dunn to an expensive contract, the organization would be better off bringing in some minor league (and major league) coaches who have a proven track record for developing talent. And that takes some major dollars. It does no good to draft well and sign top Latin America talent, if skills aren't polished into functioning tools.

Take Homer Bailey, for example. IMO, Bailey has skills, but the development coaching has failed him. He has gotten by, and to some extent, succeeded, by sheer skill. But much of his inconsistency is due to poor coaching. While he may have had better coaching at lower levels of the minor leagues, he has had very poor coaching at AAA and at the ML level.

I also believe we are seeing similar warning signs in Jay Bruce. No one expected Bruce to hit .400, but you would expect him to have a better OBP than he's had. The skills are there, but the lack of polish is being exploited by ML pitching. I fully expect at some point for Bruce to be sent back to AAA to "find his stroke." The one beef against Bruce in the minors has been his high K rates. His one weakness has been magnified by major league pitching. Where is the coaching that teaches him to make adjustments? That same coaching has not helped Adam Dunn, and I have no confidence it will help Jay Bruce.

I see inconsistencies in Votto. Encarnacion, at times, appears that he has not progressed. Thank goodness for Mario Soto, or we may be looking at a Johnny Cueto meltdown as well.

In order for the pipeline system to work like the A's and Indians, development must be drastically improved.

Spring~Fields
07-10-2008, 03:48 AM
Teams like the Rays, Marlins, Pirates, As, Royal, Twins, Brewers, and Reds have no other choices (alternatives) other then to emphasize recruiting, scouting, and building through the farm systems. The don't have the financial resources to get into a "spending war" with organizations like NY, Boston, Chicago, who, when they want to fill a need can simply go out and acquire it. They can even take risks on contracts because of those financial resources available to them.


The Reds have a long term project of ahead of them. If you think for a moment, they really haven't been sitting around the last seven to eight years, and they still have a long ways to go.