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View Full Version : Moves I would Make Now!



schroomytunes
07-09-2008, 10:21 AM
We have got to be sellers at this point with what the Brewers and Cubs just did landing Hardin and CC. Here are my ideas:

1) David Ross to Florida-the Marlins are desperate for a Catcher and he comes inexpensive...we get John Raynor a RH OF 24yrs in AA for organizatonal depth.

2)Bronson Arroyo to Boston-the Sox get a guy who loves Boston and can bolster the back of the rotation to push TB in the division....we get Coco Crisp to play CF in 2009.

3)Adam Dunn and David Weathers to Arizona- they need a power OF with Byrnes hurt and the West is still wide open for the taking, while also adding relief help in the Bullpen...we get an array of prospects-

Brooks Brown-(AA) RHSP middle of the rotation guy.
Ed Easley-(A+) RH C-he gives us a young catcher to team with Mesoraco
Gerardo Parra-(AA)- RH OF has speed and bolsters our OF depth

Just some moves to help in 2009 thoughts?

Joseph
07-09-2008, 11:50 AM
Look for Weathers to the Cardinals....

Jocketty goes to the well he knows so well to help get this team....well, well. :)

chicoruiz
07-09-2008, 11:59 AM
What would we have to include with Weathers to get Bryan Anderson?

flyer85
07-09-2008, 12:23 PM
figure out some way to get Hill from the Cubs and Heilman from the Mets.

Kc61
07-09-2008, 12:39 PM
Over the next few weeks I would promote Chris Dickerson, Paul Janish, Matt Maloney and Josh Roenicke to the major leagues. I would move Weathers, Andy Phillips, either Arroyo or Fogg, and Corey Patterson.

It's time to commit to the younger players and stop letting them foment in the minor leagues. These four seem about ready, let's get on with it.

flyer85
07-09-2008, 12:41 PM
Over the next few weeks I would promote Chris Dickerson, Paul Janish, Matt Maloney and Josh Roenicke to the major leagues. I would move Weathers, Andy Phillips, either Arroyo or Fogg, and Corey Patterson.

It's time to commit to the younger players and stop letting them foment in the minor leagues. These four seem about ready, let's get on with it.agree except for Janish ... unless he learns how to hit he is a career caddy at best. He needs to stay in the minors and work on his hitting.

Kc61
07-09-2008, 12:45 PM
agree except for Janish ... unless he learns how to hit he is a career caddy at best. He needs to stay in the minors and work on his hitting.


Janish can work on his hitting for the next ten years and he will remain a defensive backup, but potentially a good one. He's had plenty of minor league at bats. Give him a couple more weeks down there and bring him up. He is what he is.

The Reds need to start to have a group of young guys working together to become a good young team. Janish's role is as a late inning backup infielder at various positions. Give him 600 more AAA at bats and that will still be his role.

He was getting comfortable in the majors, making good plays, an occasional hit. Let him work with the other young guys. If ultimately he's no good then he will be let go.

If the Reds have a significant group of young players in the major leagues, they will play harder, be more exciting and if the talent's there they will win. Janish, Dickerson, Roenicke and Maloney have had enough time in the minors.

And before the end of the season I would consider bringing up others if they are equally ready as these guys.

flyer85
07-09-2008, 12:48 PM
He is what he is.fungible.

a 25th man on his best day.

Mario-Rijo
07-09-2008, 12:53 PM
agree except for Janish ... unless he learns how to hit he is a career caddy at best. He needs to stay in the minors and work on his hitting.

With regards to Janish, does anyone else think he has a 2-3 part swing? Just something I noticed but he doesn't seem very fluid with his entire swing. Kinda like Kearns has that jerk at the end of his swing, Janish seems to have one in the middle of his but just much more subtle. I could be reaching but it looks a bit mechanical too me.

Anyway Patterson would definitely be sent down by me at this point and check out Dickerson to see what he is capable of. He is a guy we can remove from the 40 man after the season if he hasn't got what it takes. I assume they probably already know which explains why he has never been up.

I wouldn't deal any pitchers at this point until we figure out exactly what Harangs issues are.

Kc61
07-09-2008, 12:55 PM
fungible.

a 25th man on his best day.

I'm not arguing that Janish is a star, in time somebody better may well replace him. I'm arguing that I'd rather have him than Andy Phillips regardless of baseball skill at this moment.

The team needs to go young. Bring up young stars; bring up young role players; bring up young starters; bring up young relievers. Keep some veterans but when there is a choice give the edge to the kid.

The team I saw last night was basically dead. Get some young enthusiasm in there.

I see four AAA guys who are ready to have some role on a major league team. Let's get them up here.

PuffyPig
07-09-2008, 01:00 PM
What would we have to include with Weathers to get Bryan Anderson?

They need Affeldt way more than they need Weathers.

I think you'd get Anderson and Reyes for Affeldt and Bailey.

That would be one to chew on.

_Sir_Charles_
07-09-2008, 01:21 PM
We have got to be sellers at this point with what the Brewers and Cubs just did landing Hardin and CC. Here are my ideas:

1) David Ross to Florida-the Marlins are desperate for a Catcher and he comes inexpensive...we get John Raynor a RH OF 24yrs in AA for organizatonal depth.

2)Bronson Arroyo to Boston-the Sox get a guy who loves Boston and can bolster the back of the rotation to push TB in the division....we get Coco Crisp to play CF in 2009.

3)Adam Dunn and David Weathers to Arizona- they need a power OF with Byrnes hurt and the West is still wide open for the taking, while also adding relief help in the Bullpen...we get an array of prospects-

Brooks Brown-(AA) RHSP middle of the rotation guy.
Ed Easley-(A+) RH C-he gives us a young catcher to team with Mesoraco
Gerardo Parra-(AA)- RH OF has speed and bolsters our OF depth

Just some moves to help in 2009 thoughts?


While those are all fine and good, the other teams have to be willing to make those deals. And from what we've seen so far...none are willing.

So, for arguments sake, I suggest we leave the trade-speculation out of it for now. Let's assume we're going to let Junior, Dunn, Weathers, Ross, Javy, Patterson and others walk at the end on the season. What do we get? 2 picks for each of Dunn & Griffey I'd assume. What about Weathers, Ross, Javy & Patterson?

But what about the rest of THIS season? If we're not planning on these guys being with us next year...why are we having them hold back prospects? IMO, Junior sits. Period. Weathers sits, period. Anybody that we can send down to the minors...we do it. Let's get the kids up here, pronto! I understand that you coddle the young pitchers...but you're supposed to push the young hitters. We're not doing that. Hanigan, Janish, Rosales, Cumberland, Dickerson...all of them should come up. Are all of them going to be big league starters, probably not. But they all have the potential to be big league contributors and moving them up allows us to move up OTHER youngsters in the lower minors. In terms of pitchers...I think it's pretty obvious that Harang is either injured or mentally fatigued. Either way, we need him for the future. Shut him down. Maloney, Thompson, Bailey, Roenicke, Hererra and even Belisle should be seriously considered to be up here. Either in the rotation or the Pen. If we've got players on the ML roster that aren't in our future plans...move them and get the kids who ARE in our future plans up here.

Not only does this bring excitement to the big club, but it gets them experience and most importantly it allows us to generate movement in the minor league system. Our best prospects are in the lower minors. Those bats need to be pushed a bit. Sometimes, young hitters struggle in the lower minors because they're facing pitchers who aren't nearly as good in terms of their control. Facing better pitchers will challenge them and allow them to focus on better pitches. Push 'em! The added movement in the minors gives us room for our upcoming extra draft picks from players leaving at the end of this year.

red-in-la
07-09-2008, 03:44 PM
I'm not arguing that Janish is a star, in time somebody better may well replace him. I'm arguing that I'd rather have him than Andy Phillips regardless of baseball skill at this moment.

The team needs to go young. Bring up young stars; bring up young role players; bring up young starters; bring up young relievers. Keep some veterans but when there is a choice give the edge to the kid.

The team I saw last night was basically dead. Get some young enthusiasm in there.

I see four AAA guys who are ready to have some role on a major league team. Let's get them up here.

AGREE! If for no other reason than to give US, the bill payers, a reason to tune these guys in the rest of the way.

PuffyPig
07-09-2008, 03:50 PM
Let's assume we're going to let Junior, Dunn, Weathers, Ross, Javy, Patterson and others walk at the end on the season. What do we get? 2 picks for each of Dunn & Griffey I'd assume. What about Weathers, Ross, Javy & Patterson?



Firstly, you only get picks if you offer arbitration.

Dunn is a Type A FA, and will get us two picksas we will offer him arbitration.

It's unlikley Griffey would be a Type A, but it doesn't matter, as we won't be offered arbitraion (he would be guranteed no less than 80% of his current salary).

Weathers would likely bring a pick, but there's no way we offer him arbitration.

camisadelgolf
07-09-2008, 04:00 PM
If the Reds trade Dave Ross, who catches in 2009? Do the Reds re-sign Javier Valentin? What about a 36-year-old Paul Bako? Do the Reds rely on the guys in the minors (Ryan Hanigan, Alvin Colina, Craig Tatum, et al)?

If the Reds pick up Ross' option for 2009, he may be a little over-priced, but he might be worth it. Ross has a .778 OPS as a Red (and a .723 OPS in 2008). .718 is an average OPS for a catcher this year. The last time I checked, Paul Bako's OPS was .673.

Rojo
07-09-2008, 04:05 PM
If the Reds trade Dave Ross, who catches in 2009? Do the Reds re-sign Javier Valentin? What about a 36-year-old Paul Bako? Do the Reds rely on the guys in the minors (Ryan Hanigan, Alvin Colina, Craig Tatum, et al)?

If the Reds pick up Ross' option for 2009, he may be a little over-priced, but he might be worth it. Ross has a .778 OPS as a Red (and a .723 OPS in 2008). .718 is an average OPS for a catcher this year. The last time I checked, Paul Bako's OPS was .673.


Good point. I think he's getting $3.5 million for it. Ryan Hannigan will cost $390K but might hit like Patterson sans speed and the occassion homerun.

Big Klu
07-09-2008, 04:15 PM
fungible.

a 25th man on his best day.

Juan Castro 2.0

Will M
07-09-2008, 05:09 PM
If the Reds trade Dave Ross, who catches in 2009? Do the Reds re-sign Javier Valentin? What about a 36-year-old Paul Bako? Do the Reds rely on the guys in the minors (Ryan Hanigan, Alvin Colina, Craig Tatum, et al)?

If the Reds pick up Ross' option for 2009, he may be a little over-priced, but he might be worth it. Ross has a .778 OPS as a Red (and a .723 OPS in 2008). .718 is an average OPS for a catcher this year. The last time I checked, Paul Bako's OPS was .673.

Ross's bat was great in 2006, awful in 2007 and OK this year.
He has a good arm but other than that is quite weak defensively.
IMO not worth $3.5M

Will M
07-09-2008, 05:26 PM
1. Move Weathers and call up Roenicke

2. Play Kep at 2b with Phillips at SS and see how they fare defensively compared with the current array.

3. If Dunn won't sign give Votto some starts in LF just to see how he fares so we have an idea if he is viable there defensively. If he looks decent there he could go to the instructional league this November with a plan for him to play LF in 2009

4. Move or DFA Majik and call up Herrara.

5. DFA Patterson and call up Dickerson. Give him some starts at the expense of Jr. See if he can hit RHP. For 2009 is he a AAAA player, reserve OF, part of a CF platoon??? lets find out

6. If anyone wants Jr they can have him. Same for Javy, Belisle & Coffey.

7. Listen to offers for Arroyo but don't just dump him.

8. Seems Ross has some trade value. Move him and replace him with Hanigan.
Hanigan may be our backup catcher in 2009. Give him some big league at
bats.

9. If Harang goes on the DL call up Maloney and see him vs big league hitters.
If Harang doesn't go on the DL then trade Fogg & call up Maloney and see him vs big league hitters.

10. Sign Alonso and send him to AA or A+. Lets try to get an ETA on his arrival in Cincinnati.

11. I am inclined to keep Lincoln, Hairston & Affeldt. They could be cheap parts of the 2009 squad.

The common theme is move on from the oldsters. Call up the youth and see what they can do so we can better plan for 2009.

nate
07-09-2008, 05:27 PM
Ross's bat was great in 2006, awful in 2007 and OK this year.
He has a good arm but other than that is quite weak defensively.
IMO not worth $3.5M

Oddly enough, Ross is one of the two youngest catchers who will be a FA after the season. The other is Michael Barrett (http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=435). He's making $3.5mm + incentives this year and is much worse at the plate than Ross.

Johnny Estrada is 32 and has a lot of incentives (http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=168) in his contract. He made $3.4mm with the Brewers last year and has an OPS+ of 8 (yes, 8) this year (OK, he's been hurt but that's a fun OPS+!)

Jason Kendall ($4.2mm)? Jason LaRue (incentive-laden contract but made $9mm for the previous two years)?

These are the younger guys, too!

If you really want to get a good, young catcher, it's going to have to be via trade and the cost will be very high. Ross might actually be priced right at $3.5mm.

Spring~Fields
07-09-2008, 06:25 PM
We have got to be sellers at this point with what the Brewers and Cubs just did landing Hardin and CC. Here are my ideas:

1) David Ross to Florida-the Marlins are desperate for a Catcher and he comes inexpensive...we get John Raynor a RH OF 24yrs in AA for organizatonal depth.

2)Bronson Arroyo to Boston-the Sox get a guy who loves Boston and can bolster the back of the rotation to push TB in the division....we get Coco Crisp to play CF in 2009.

3)Adam Dunn and David Weathers to Arizona- they need a power OF with Byrnes hurt and the West is still wide open for the taking, while also adding relief help in the Bullpen...we get an array of prospects-

Brooks Brown-(AA) RHSP middle of the rotation guy.
Ed Easley-(A+) RH C-he gives us a young catcher to team with Mesoraco
Gerardo Parra-(AA)- RH OF has speed and bolsters our OF depth

Just some moves to help in 2009 thoughts?


I think that those are interesting proposals in that they are pointing toward leading the way into a clearing out of the past with some salvage value heading directly into the future with an opportunity to build upon. For an organization with limited options in a volatile market with which to compete in the present and perhaps future years, that may or may not be critical.

Spring~Fields
07-09-2008, 06:30 PM
But what about the rest of THIS season? If we're not planning on these guys being with us next year...why are we having them hold back prospects?

Seems to be a conflict in their goals and objectives doesn’t it. My speculation would be that it has to do with their fiscal obligations that they have already committed to.

mth123
07-10-2008, 05:28 AM
Oddly enough, Ross is one of the two youngest catchers who will be a FA after the season. The other is Michael Barrett (http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=435). He's making $3.5mm + incentives this year and is much worse at the plate than Ross.

Johnny Estrada is 32 and has a lot of incentives (http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=168) in his contract. He made $3.4mm with the Brewers last year and has an OPS+ of 8 (yes, 8) this year (OK, he's been hurt but that's a fun OPS+!)

Jason Kendall ($4.2mm)? Jason LaRue (incentive-laden contract but made $9mm for the previous two years)?

These are the younger guys, too!

If you really want to get a good, young catcher, it's going to have to be via trade and the cost will be very high. Ross might actually be priced right at $3.5mm.

All that is true. I still don't pay David Ross $3.5 Million per year to stink behind the plate. None of the guys you mentioned are good, but I take the one who comes cheapest. Heck, I go with Hanigan before paying Ross that amount. You are correct about seeking a young catcher in a deal. Or maybe a vet in a deal.

Dump:

Griffey, Ross, Weathers, Freel if he can get back on the field, Fogg, Patterson even if it requires DFA, Affeldt since he's a free agent. Javy and/or Bako too if they can ensure enough bodies behind the plate to get through the year. The main goals are to:

1.) get out from under dead money (Griffey, Freel),
2.) remove guys who suck (Patterson, Ross), and
3.) get some return on guys who probably won't be back but other team's may value a little (Affeldt, Weathers, Fogg).

I wouldn't expect much back in the way of real talent for any of these guys, but there is value in turning the page IMO.

Explore deals for:

Dunn and Arroyo but only trade them if there is an option for replacing what they do while adding some wiggle room or other solutions. I lean toward keeping them both and signing Dunn for 3 or 4 years..

Keep:

Bruce, Volquez, Cueto, Burton, Cordero, Harang, B. Phillips. I know its not popular on here but Bruce may need a couple of weeks back in AAA to get him hitting again. I don't think the team should view sending him down as the end of the world.


Shop:

EdE, Votto. I'd need to be bowled over to deal Votto, but in the right deal...
I still think EdE is the Red's best bet as a trading chit. He's young still cheap, adds to a line-up and the team has some options ready (Keppinger) and on the way (Frazier etc,).

Everybody else is available in the right deal though Bailey, Thompson, Frazier and Roenicke would be guys I'd be reluctant to trade.

Spring~Fields
07-10-2008, 08:35 AM
All that is true. I still don't pay David Ross $3.5 Million per year to stink behind the plate. None of the guys you mentioned are good, but I take the one who comes cheapest. Heck, I go with Hanigan before paying Ross that amount. You are correct about seeking a young catcher in a deal. Or maybe a vet in a deal.

Dump:

Griffey, Ross, Weathers, Freel if he can get back on the field, Fogg, Patterson even if it requires DFA, Affeldt since he's a free agent. Javy and/or Bako too if they can ensure enough bodies behind the plate to get through the year. The main goals are to:

1.) get out from under dead money (Griffey, Freel),
2.) remove guys who suck (Patterson, Ross), and
3.) get some return on guys who probably won't be back but other team's may value a little (Affeldt, Weathers, Fogg).

I wouldn't expect much back in the way of real talent for any of these guys, but there is value in turning the page IMO.

Explore deals for:

Dunn and Arroyo but only trade them if there is an option for replacing what they do while adding some wiggle room or other solutions. I lean toward keeping them both and signing Dunn for 3 or 4 years..

Keep:

Bruce, Volquez, Cueto, Burton, Cordero, Harang, B. Phillips. I know its not popular on here but Bruce may need a couple of weeks back in AAA to get him hitting again. I don't think the team should view sending him down as the end of the world.


Shop:

EdE, Votto. I'd need to be bowled over to deal Votto, but in the right deal...
I still think EdE is the Red's best bet as a trading chit. He's young still cheap, adds to a line-up and the team has some options ready (Keppinger) and on the way (Frazier etc,).

Everybody else is available in the right deal though Bailey, Thompson, Frazier and Roenicke would be guys I'd be reluctant to trade.

:notworthy :clap:

Strikes Out Looking
07-10-2008, 09:19 AM
I would move Ken Griffey Jr. to 7th in the batting order--and if he sulks sit him on the bench. I would let Bruce play RF and bat 5th as much as possible. I would play Joey Votto in LF and bat 3rd as much as possible.

I really believe until the Reds figure out who their corner of's are for 2009, everything else is pretty much academic. And those corner of's need to account for 180 runs scored and 180 rbis.