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BuckeyeRedleg
07-13-2008, 04:04 PM
Dusty should have brought in Lincoln to pitch to Kapler

Bingo!

WVRedsFan
07-13-2008, 04:04 PM
Thanks professional Scout. I think he's a little better than that, part of his problem is being used 3 days in a row like today.

Then why use him?

No, I'm not a pro scout. Just a fan's observation. Just like your observation.

redsrule2500
07-13-2008, 04:05 PM
Bray is not even good against lefties. They hit .271 with a .375 OBP!
Then leave him in to face Kapler???? Why??

Dusty Baker moment.

The hardest part of watching this game is when I keep fighting moves made by management. The lacking offense isn't helping either, but I can somewhat relate that back to the starting lineup! :(

VR
07-13-2008, 04:05 PM
Bray is not even good against lefties. They hit .271 with a .375 OBP!


Then leave him in to face Kapler???? Why??

0-6 with 3 k's against Fielder.

.213 against righties.

Homer Bailey
07-13-2008, 04:05 PM
I honestly want to know why people think Bray is a good reliever, and please don't give me the E.R.A. stat. That inning alone proved how worthless that one is for a situational reliever.

reds44
07-13-2008, 04:06 PM
0-6 with 3 k's against Fielder.

.213 against righties.
DING.

That inning wasn't Dusty's fault. Sometimes moves just don't work.

redsrule2500
07-13-2008, 04:06 PM
CC's pitch count is scaring me. 81

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2008, 04:06 PM
...who often lets inherited runners score...

Well, that's not true. I don't have the updated stats but someone posted the other day that Bray strands 85% of inherited runners.

Bray is underrated on here. He's pitching well now despite having command problems. He can take his game up another level if/when he commands his stuff better.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-13-2008, 04:06 PM
I care more about K/9, BB/9 and HR/9 than I do WHIP.

Bray K's more than a batter an inning, but is relaitively young and has some control issues. There is nothing wrong with having him out there.

He just should have been yanked after the walk to Fielder.

WVRedsFan
07-13-2008, 04:07 PM
I honestly want to know why people think Bray is a good reliever, and please don't give me the E.R.A. stat. That inning alone proved how worthless that one is for a situational reliever.

Give up, Homer. For every reasonable observation there is a statistic that will override it.

Reds Fanatic
07-13-2008, 04:07 PM
Ross grounds out to short.

Tony Cloninger
07-13-2008, 04:07 PM
So Bray cannot be used 3 games in a row now....and neither can Cordero....but then when Burton is...it is too much...but then when he does not use him 2 days in a row...it's bad. I guess we ned a 15 man pitching staff to figure it all out.

I got it now.... :confused:

Cyclone792
07-13-2008, 04:08 PM
I care more about K/9, BB/9 and HR/9 than I do WHIP.

Bray K's more than a batter an inning, but is relaitively young and has some control issues. There is nothing wrong with having him out there.

He just should have been yanked after the walk to Fielder.

That's precisely it right there.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:08 PM
Bray just turned 25... he will continue to improve... I take him on my team any time...

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:08 PM
C.C K's Votto... 2 down

_Sir_Charles_
07-13-2008, 04:09 PM
I honestly want to know why people think Bray is a good reliever, and please don't give me the E.R.A. stat. That inning alone proved how worthless that one is for a situational reliever.

2 to 1 strikeout to walk ratio. Decent groundball rate. Pounds the strikezone. Will have the occasional bad outing, but overall will give you decent to good outings. If he didn't have the occasional bad outing, he'd be a great reliever...but he does, so I leave him as a good pen arm. And with his age, he certainly has a great deal of upside.

DoogMinAmo
07-13-2008, 04:09 PM
Bullpen guys should not be used more than 2 days in a row as a rule. If a reliever works multiple innings he gets a day off. That is the point of having 11-12 men staffs.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:09 PM
What is Thom talking about pinch-hitting for C.C..... Does he not know he can hit?

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:10 PM
Bruce grounds to 2nd... 2-2 mid 7...

DoogMinAmo
07-13-2008, 04:11 PM
What is Thom talking about pinch-hitting for C.C..... Does he not know he can hit?

I have a feeling CC could close this game out.

redsrule2500
07-13-2008, 04:11 PM
92 pitches through 7....

Reds Fanatic
07-13-2008, 04:11 PM
92 pitches for Sabathia through 7.

redsrule2500
07-13-2008, 04:11 PM
I have a feeling CC could close this game out.

The Reds would have to give up runs for that to happen, Mr. Positive.

Tony Cloninger
07-13-2008, 04:12 PM
It was just pointed out that Bray pitches better against RH's but people just keep asking why he was left in against Kapler...proving that people are either not paying attention to what is written....or they just do not care and are waiting to get their baker rant on.

And the lineups again now? Some people would complain about the lineups being the cause of no runs..even if Koufax and Gibson were pitching

Homer Bailey
07-13-2008, 04:12 PM
I think WHIP (the amount of batters you let on) is a lot more telling stat than K/9 (the amount of batters you get out by strikeout).

reds44
07-13-2008, 04:12 PM
Dunn is teeing one up in the 8th.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:13 PM
I think WHIP (the amount of batters you let on) is a lot more telling stat than K/9 (the amount of batters you get out by strikeout).

Yes it is... Homer has a 2.11... pretty telling right there...

reds44
07-13-2008, 04:13 PM
Yes it is... Homer has a 2.11... pretty telling right there...
Umm, what do Homer and Bray have to do with each other? Volquez has a 1.25 WHIP, pretty telling. Not sure what that has to do with Bray.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-13-2008, 04:13 PM
I think WHIP (the amount of batters you let on) is a lot more telling stat than K/9 (the amount of batters you get out by strikeout).

WHIP is better than ERA, but the combination of K/9, BB/9, and HR/9 tells you more.

WHIP (basically adding hits to BB/9) is too dependent on defense and luck.

K/9, BB/9, and HR/9 and HBP the pitcher can control.

DoogMinAmo
07-13-2008, 04:14 PM
The Reds would have to give up runs for that to happen, Mr. Positive.

I just meant he has at least 2 more innings in him, at this pace. Not to mention the Brewers' noted bullpen woes. I know some on here may get caught up in the whole optimist vs pessimist thing, but please leave me out of it.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:15 PM
Umm, what do Homer and Bray have to do with each other? Volquez has a 1.25 WHIP, pretty telling. Not sure what that has to do with Bray.

I thought everyone was arguing about taking Bailey out and putting Bray in... maybe that didn't happen I guess...

Homer Bailey
07-13-2008, 04:16 PM
It was just pointed out that Bray pitches better against RH's but people just keep asking why he was left in against Kapler...proving that people are either not paying attention to what is written....or they just do not care and are waiting to get their baker rant on.

And the lineups again now? Some people would complain about the lineups being the cause of no runs..even if Koufax and Gibson were pitching

My questioning was what was the point of leaving him in? I think it was just a lazy move by Dusty.

Did Dusty just bring in Bray to face the lefty because it was a LL matchup? If so, then he should have taken him out to face the righty. If Dusty knew that Bray is better against righties than lefties then why did he bring him in to face the lefty? It just doesn't make sense.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-13-2008, 04:16 PM
Milwaukee must realize they won't get Sabathia after this year. They are going to get their money's worth out of him.

CrackerJack
07-13-2008, 04:16 PM
wow nice pitch by Lincoln there for the K

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:17 PM
2 quick outs... Sabathia will hit...

reds44
07-13-2008, 04:17 PM
I thought everyone was arguing about taking Bailey out and putting Bray in... maybe that didn't happen I guess...
That is a tiny sample size for Homer and he was pitching well today. FTR, I agree with Dusty.

DoogMinAmo
07-13-2008, 04:19 PM
nice job by lincoln. the big guns are coming up, now is the time to make the move.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:20 PM
Great job by Lincoln...

PuffyPig
07-13-2008, 04:20 PM
If Dusty knew that Bray is better against righties than lefties then why did he bring him in to face the lefty? It just doesn't make sense.

Yeah it makes alot of sense.

Fielder is much better vs. a RH pitcher. Bray is neutral vs. either type. So,Bray was a better choice agianst Fielder, and was always going to pitch to Kapler. But with Hall up and two runners in scoring position, there's no way you leave a neutral pitcher in against a noted lefty killer.

Not all RH hitters are equal.

reds44
07-13-2008, 04:22 PM
Dunn is teeing up CC.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-13-2008, 04:22 PM
6 years/$137.5M (2008-13), plus 2014 club option


Santana's contract.

Anyone think that's what Sabathia will command?

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:22 PM
The sun rises and Kepp hits!

_Sir_Charles_
07-13-2008, 04:23 PM
Way to start it off Kepp! Single to center.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:23 PM
6 years/$137.5M (2008-13), plus 2014 club option


Santana's contract.

Anyone think that's what Sabathia will command?

He shouldn't, but somebody will overpay...

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:23 PM
maybe a bunt down the line... I wouldn't, just an idea...

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:24 PM
that is a terrible break... line drive right at Fielder... Double play...

Cyclone792
07-13-2008, 04:24 PM
6 years/$137.5M (2008-13), plus 2014 club option

Santana's contract.

Anyone think that's what Sabathia will command?

I'd have to think similar dollars, but I'm not sure he'll get six years plus an option for an additional year. I'd have to think Sabathia's weight could be a concern for a club giving him that long of a deal. Then again I'll probably be wrong when this offseason rolls around and someone gets desperate to land him.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-13-2008, 04:24 PM
Perfect example of Dunn's BABIP luck this year.

redsrule2500
07-13-2008, 04:24 PM
Wow. That killed us.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:25 PM
BP singles... C'mon Edwin... big fly right here...

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:26 PM
2-0.... rip this one Edwin...

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:26 PM
3-0... I would to, considering who is on deck...

reds44
07-13-2008, 04:26 PM
Dunn smashes into a DP and Phillips bloops one and gets a hit.

Funny game.

Cyclone792
07-13-2008, 04:26 PM
2-0 count, I'd seriously consider telling Phillips to try to swipe second base right here.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:27 PM
Edwin took a rip at that 3-0 pitch...

Tony Cloninger
07-13-2008, 04:27 PM
To answer a previous question to mine.....Who else is ready to face a lefty in this bullpen? Affeldt? maybe.......or maybe they were just pitching around Fielder to begin with.

I just don't think it's a point blank....terrible or even that bad of a move....if you want to get all upset with Dusty...save it for his real bad ones. Not these types were it's not really a clear cut bad move. It is more of a good move than a bad one....it is not a Castro PH for Hamilton....but you would think it was based on some of these posts.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:27 PM
my bad... it was only 2-0

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:27 PM
3-2... Phillips will be off...

redsrule2500
07-13-2008, 04:28 PM
Man we'd be in business if only Dunn had struckout!!!

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:28 PM
Edwin walks... 1st and 2nd with Griffey pinch-hitting for Linc... C'mon Griffey!

reds44
07-13-2008, 04:29 PM
Come on Junior.

DoogMinAmo
07-13-2008, 04:30 PM
They shifting on grif?

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:31 PM
Griff K's... mid 8... 2-2

redsrule2500
07-13-2008, 04:31 PM
Griffey looked like a complete idiot. That was just plain beyond terrible... :(

BuckeyeRedleg
07-13-2008, 04:31 PM
Another hideous AB by Junior.

Just awful.

Cyclone792
07-13-2008, 04:31 PM
Griffey strikes out on a ball that would have hit a right-handed batter.

RedsManRick
07-13-2008, 04:32 PM
Griffey looked like a complete idiot. That was just plain beyond terrible... :(

Very ugly AB.

Tony Cloninger
07-13-2008, 04:32 PM
The 2nd pitch on a check swing....that one set up the last pitch. Griffey was ready to swing at anything.

reds44
07-13-2008, 04:32 PM
That was an awesome AB.

Homer Bailey
07-13-2008, 04:36 PM
Thom Brennamen just outlined everything I said almost to a T. It's like he's reading my posts about Bray.

WVRedsFan
07-13-2008, 04:36 PM
Why do you send Griffey up against a tough lefthander? Because there is no one else to send up, I guess. Or his numbers against CC are really good?

RedsManRick
07-13-2008, 04:36 PM
Weathers getting a lot of work lately. I think he'll be the first guy moved.

WVRedsFan
07-13-2008, 04:37 PM
Thom Brennamen just outlined everything I said almost to a T. It's like he's reading my posts about Bray.

Thom doesn't have the stats we have.

reds44
07-13-2008, 04:37 PM
Why do you send Griffey up against a tough lefthander? Because there is no one else to send up, I guess. Or his numbers against CC are really good?
4 for 16 (now 17) with 5 (now 6) K's.

Homer Bailey
07-13-2008, 04:37 PM
Bad throw from Phillips, but I don't know if I've ever seen worse fundamentals at 1B than what Votto just showed.

RedsManRick
07-13-2008, 04:37 PM
Phillips short hops the throw and Votto can't scoop it. No need for Joey to be so stretched out there-- had no chance to move laterally and field that throw. His footwork at the bag is really terrible.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:37 PM
that sucked..

CTA513
07-13-2008, 04:38 PM
Lets hope the Brewers don't do anything with that extra out.

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2008, 04:38 PM
To hear Redszone tell it, Bill Bray is the worst pitcher in baseball. Dude has a 2.86 ERA, 9.85 K/9, and .733 OPS against and has become the new Redszone whipping boy.

redsrule2500
07-13-2008, 04:38 PM
Wow, I'm loving actual analysis by the TV Crew!! haha

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2008, 04:39 PM
It's a shame the offense and defense are going to blow another well pitched game.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:39 PM
2 down... IBB Fielder... 1st and 2nd with Weathers vs Kapler...

Homer Bailey
07-13-2008, 04:39 PM
This is why I love Thom Brennemen.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:40 PM
To hear Redszone tell it, Bill Bray is the worst pitcher in baseball. Dude has a 2.86 ERA, 9.85 K/9, and .733 OPS against and has become the new Redszone whipping boy.

don't worry... you're not the only one that can't figure it out... plus the guy is 25!

reds44
07-13-2008, 04:40 PM
It's a shame the offense and defense are going to blow another well pitched game.
The offense had scored 26 runs the last 3 games and were going up against CC today, hard to blame them.

The defense, well, it is what it is.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:40 PM
Great job by Weathers in this series! Had to boost that trade value...

Homer Bailey
07-13-2008, 04:40 PM
Good job by Weathers again.

RedsManRick
07-13-2008, 04:41 PM
Gounder to SS to end the inning. Phillips looks like he wanted to spike the ball at the 2B bag -- still mad at himself for the error presumably.

reds44
07-13-2008, 04:42 PM
Helluva job by Stormy pitching around the error.

Get a run.

Homer Bailey
07-13-2008, 04:42 PM
To hear Redszone tell it, Bill Bray is the worst pitcher in baseball. Dude has a 2.86 ERA, 9.85 K/9, and .733 OPS against and has become the new Redszone whipping boy.

I actually think he is the exact opposite. Redzoners believe he is a great reliever when I believe that he is less than sufficient.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:43 PM
Did Bray steal someone's girlfriend or something???

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:43 PM
what is Patterson doing?

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:44 PM
The Brewers are going to ride Sabathia, they know they will not have him any longer than this season...

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2008, 04:44 PM
Patterson didn't stand a chance.

VR
07-13-2008, 04:44 PM
2nd straight game for Weathers handling the All-star laden top of Brewers lineup.

You just have to appreciate Weather's fortitude.

redsrule2500
07-13-2008, 04:44 PM
Patterson is such a joke. Get off this team.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-13-2008, 04:44 PM
Corey Patterson. LOL.

Homer Bailey
07-13-2008, 04:44 PM
Corey Patterson is batting in the 9th inning of a tie game. How can this even possibly happen? I know there is not a right handed option off the bench right now, but how in the world can this organization be in a position where he has to bat in the 9th inning of a tie game against a lefty.

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2008, 04:44 PM
I actually think he is the exact opposite. Redzoners believe he is a great reliever when I believe that he is less than sufficient.

His numbers suggest he has been a well above average reliever this year.

guttle11
07-13-2008, 04:44 PM
what is Patterson doing?

What Corey Patterson does...

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:44 PM
I promise there are people in nursing homes that would look better against Sabathia than Patterson...

redsrule2500
07-13-2008, 04:45 PM
Corey Patterson is batting in the 9th inning of a tie game. How can this even possibly happen? I know there is not a right handed option off the bench right now, but how in the world can this organization be in a position where he has to bat in the 9th inning of a tie game against a lefty.

Dusty freaking Baker

WVRedsFan
07-13-2008, 04:45 PM
To hear Redszone tell it, Bill Bray is the worst pitcher in baseball. Dude has a 2.86 ERA, 9.85 K/9, and .733 OPS against and has become the new Redszone whipping boy.
Hardly OBM. Bray is held in high esteem here. There a few us who don't agree (very few), that's all.

jesusfan
07-13-2008, 04:46 PM
wow... Ross looked bad too...

redsrule2500
07-13-2008, 04:47 PM
Geez. 9th inning and he K's the side, 121 pitches

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2008, 04:47 PM
Sabathia doesn't even need to throw the ball near the plate because the Reds hitters will swing at anything.

Homer Bailey
07-13-2008, 04:47 PM
His numbers suggest he has been a well above average reliever this year.

I'm sorry. A WHIP over 1.5 can not be considered average. I know some of his other numbers may make it appear as if he has been effective, but that number is quite awful.

WVRedsFan
07-13-2008, 04:48 PM
Wow Votto. Were any of those pitches strikes?

BuckeyeRedleg
07-13-2008, 04:48 PM
As I said, The Brewers will get their money's worth out of Sabathia.

reds44
07-13-2008, 04:48 PM
1-2-3 in the 10th.

Gotta get it there.

WVRedsFan
07-13-2008, 04:49 PM
Will CC pitch the 10th? :)

Reminds me of how the Reds did Harang when our bullpen was so awful...

Second inning for Stormy might not have been a good idea...

BuckeyeRedleg
07-13-2008, 04:49 PM
Ballgame.

Homer Bailey
07-13-2008, 04:50 PM
I'll blame this loss soley on the fact that Reds44 is not in attendance.

VR
07-13-2008, 04:50 PM
I'm sorry. A WHIP over 1.5 can not be considered average. I know some of his other numbers may make it appear as if he has been effective, but that number is quite awful.

then why choose to spew on the Reds pitcher with the lowest WhIP in today's game? Bailey, over 2. Weathers, over 1.5.

dougdirt
07-13-2008, 04:50 PM
Weathers will blow this game. Bank it.

guttle11
07-13-2008, 04:50 PM
Why is Weathers still in there? This showcase stuff is a little overzealous.

WVRedsFan
07-13-2008, 04:50 PM
Just pitiful--Weathers and Ross fighting for the ball.

LoganBuck
07-13-2008, 04:50 PM
Weathers

sigh

reds44
07-13-2008, 04:50 PM
I hate Bill Hall.

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2008, 04:51 PM
I'm sorry. A WHIP over 1.5 can not be considered average. I know some of his other numbers may make it appear as if he has been effective, but that number is quite awful.

WHIP is a stat that depends a lot on defense. We all know how bad the Reds defense is so do we really want to judge a pitcher on that?

RedsManRick
07-13-2008, 04:51 PM
Yuck. Just horrible defense there. Walk the next guy and bring in Cordero.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-13-2008, 04:51 PM
LOL. This one wasn't meant to be folks.

Hey Walt, if you are serious about this team, Patterson will not be invited back post-All Star break and you will call up Dickerson.

Javy can stay home as well.

WVRedsFan
07-13-2008, 04:51 PM
This s a game we should not have lost.
Too many mistakes by management and in fielding.

guttle11
07-13-2008, 04:51 PM
Implosion ruins what was a pretty solid game to this point, all things considered.

Keeping Weathers in for his 4th inning in 3 games is just bad managing.

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2008, 04:52 PM
David Weathers has lost a boatload of games for this team this season, including three against the Brewers.

redsrule2500
07-13-2008, 04:52 PM
This was probably the worst game I've seen all year. Dusty just completely fails on all sides of the ball. From the lineup, to bullpen management...he's just at a complete loss and it frustrates the crap outta me. I'm done w/ the Reds for a whlie......thankfully that lines up with the all-star break.

reds44
07-13-2008, 04:53 PM
Bring Cordero in.

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2008, 04:53 PM
The Reds finish this roadtrip 3-3 but should have been 5-1 with better defense and offense. The second game in Chicago was very winnable as was this one but the defense/offense let us down.

MrCinatit
07-13-2008, 04:54 PM
Why prolong the agony, Dusty? Just let Weathers throw it over Ross' head, end the game, and hope several players are not back after the break is over.

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2008, 04:54 PM
Cordero needs to be in considering he'll have the next three days off.

Cyclone792
07-13-2008, 04:54 PM
The Reds might as well bring Corey Patterson in to play a 5th infield slot. He's not throwing anybody out at the plate with his rag out from center field so it's pretty worthless to have him out there.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-13-2008, 04:54 PM
Sunday road games are not meant to be for this club.

Homer Bailey
07-13-2008, 04:54 PM
then why choose to spew on the Reds pitcher with the lowest WhIP in today's game? Bailey, over 2. Weathers, over 1.5.

They have also been pretty ineffective this year. Weathers has been streaky, and Bailey has been bad except for today. I'm spewing because people think Bray is a lot more effective than he has been.

WVRedsFan
07-13-2008, 04:56 PM
Well, that was quick.

Man, Cordero gets hit hard sometimes.

flyer85
07-13-2008, 04:56 PM
Dusty is clueless

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2008, 04:57 PM
This offense and defense is awful Please Walt, make some changes.

VR
07-13-2008, 04:57 PM
They have also been pretty ineffective this year. Weathers has been streaky, and Bailey has been bad except for today. I'm spewing because people think Bray is a lot more effective than he has been.

Actually, he's been very effective when using metrics to measure his performance.
If you are judging his entire value on WHIP, and letting the tying run in against your favorite player score, that perhaps he could be deemed ineffective.

guttle11
07-13-2008, 04:57 PM
They have also been pretty ineffective this year. Weathers has been streaky, and Bailey has been bad except for today. I'm spewing because people think Bray is a lot more effective than he has been.

There's no such thing as "more effective than he has been". He has been what he has been. It's all in what numbers you choose to use for your case.

PuffyPig
07-13-2008, 04:58 PM
The Reds finish this roadtrip 3-3 but should have been 5-1 with better defense and offense. The second game in Chicago was very winnable as was this one but the defense/offense let us down.


If we had better offense and defense we'd probably have a pretty good team.

But we don't, so often we won't have good offense and good defense.

LoganBuck
07-13-2008, 04:59 PM
Sunday games are very hard to watch with Dusty. He seems to have more brain farts.

I don't blame him for pulling Bailey, I would rather have seen Affeldt if he was going to bring in a lefty.

I don't like seeing Weathers go two innings

Corey Patterson continues to give me IBS.

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2008, 04:59 PM
Bringing Weathers back out for the 9th was just asking for a loss.

Homer Bailey
07-13-2008, 04:59 PM
Well this one is tough to argue. Bray failed to do his job today, and in all liklihood, cost the Reds the game. (I think Cordero pitches the 9th if they have the lead, and closes the door).

Tony Cloninger
07-13-2008, 05:00 PM
Burton was not available due to his injury.

You want to prolong this game like SD and use Cordero too early...when Weathers has worked 2 innings before?

Good grief...when is Dusty not clueless to some of you.....every game he is clueless.....no game can just be a loss that happens. CC pitched great.
The Brewers are not the Nationals.....please fire Dusty....so we can end the RZ tradition of always blaming the managers.

CTA513
07-13-2008, 05:01 PM
Burton was not available due to his injury.

You want to prolong this game like SD and use Cordero too early...when Weathers has worked 2 innings before?

Good grief...when is Dusty not clueless to some of you.....every game he is clueless.....no game can just be a loss that happens. CC pitched great.
The Brewers are not the Nationals.....please fire Dusty....so we can end the RZ tradition of always blaming the managers.


:cry:

flyer85
07-13-2008, 05:02 PM
Bringing Weathers back out for the 9th was just asking for a loss.if he was willing to bring in Cordero(which he obviously was) then it makes no sense to have not taken out Weathers either to start the inning or after the base hit.

OnBaseMachine
07-13-2008, 05:02 PM
Well this one is tough to argue. Bray failed to do his job today, and in all liklihood, cost the Reds the game. (I think Cordero pitches the 9th if they have the lead, and closes the door).

Bray didn't cost the Reds the game, the Reds lack of offense and defense cost them the game.

guttle11
07-13-2008, 05:06 PM
Perhaps if we don't start two crappy players they have a bigger lead than 2-1 when Bray came in.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Fact is they lost because the Brewers played better. 3-3 against the top 2 teams in the NL (IMO) is not a bad trip. Get some rest and get after the Mets on Thursday.

KittyDuran
07-13-2008, 05:10 PM
Well, considering that I chalked this ballgame off as a loss to begin with CC pitching, even though I was sad with the result, coming so close to a win, I was overall OK with it. As guttle said, 3-3 against the top teams in the division was better than I expected given the way this team has performed of late.

Tony Cloninger
07-13-2008, 05:10 PM
I will ignore all game threads until Thursday and see if things get better by then.

Tom Servo
07-13-2008, 05:11 PM
Bringing Weathers back out for the 9th was just asking for a loss.
Yup. My dad and I like to refer to it as "Jerry Narron Presents Press Your Luck", based on the fact that Narron always loved giving struggling guys like Majewski the chance to pitch to more than a batter or two.

Sea Ray
07-13-2008, 05:16 PM
I'm not a big Dusty basher but he managed a terrible game here. I don't agree with taking Homer out when he did but he compounded his error by making more. Why leave Bray in to pitch to the RH behind Fielder? If you pitch to that batter why take him out? If you take him out why did you double switch? It was too early to be double switching the way Sabathia was pitching.

That inning and the way Dusty botched it led to worthless Votto ABs and having to overuse Weathers. Dusty mentioned prior to the game that his players can't begin theit vacation early. Ironically Dusty left his A game at home

WVRedsFan
07-13-2008, 05:42 PM
I don't fault Dusty for taking Homer out. It was a gamble that did not work. One I could have predicted, but I imagine I wasn't alone. Letting Bray pitch the the RH ws a mistake, just like allowing DW to pitch the extra inning, but good arguments are made for that too.

The biggest problem is roster construction. Facing lefthanders has been bad for this team because of no right-handed punch. Today, we had Patterson, Dunn, and Bruce in the lineup--three of the four our major big sticks who looked amost clueless against Sabathia. Off the bench, there is little help. This team is so lefthanded oriented that this is going to happen.

As far as position players go, the Reds have 6 righthanded batting players and 7 lefthanded batting players (I count Valentin as a lefty since his right-handed hitting is abysmal). The Reds have already released another lefty in Scott Hatteberg, so we went into the season with no option for a right-handed bat at first or a real option in the outfield. You can add catcher since Ross is so streaky.

the pitching staff is similar. With 10 righthanders and 2 lefthanders, situational pitching is tough. You have Affeldt and Bray. If one is tired, you're left with one option.

We could also go into the defensive problems, but that's another post. It's certainly not all Dusty's fault, but he shares in it by playing Patterson today and now we're gong to see more of Patterson with Hariston out.

_Sir_Charles_
07-13-2008, 05:49 PM
Okay, today is just a bit ridiculous in my opinion. I'm no Dusty Baker fan. I've seen some of the poor decisions he's made this year. The SD game, sticking with Patterson so long, several other things of that vein. But today I just don't get. Everybody (well, most everybody) is pouncing on Dusty as blowing this game. And I just don't see it. DUSTY DID THIS ONE RIGHT!

1.) "Dusty's an idiot for starting Patterson over Bruce"~I don't buy it. I personally would love it if Corey was released. But that's beside the point. Bruce has not been hitting well. CC has owned lefties this season. Sitting Bruce and using Patterson for defense was the right move. Any game against CC is destined to be a low-scoring game if you're wanting it to be a CC loss. The exceptional glove of Patterson was the right move here. Also take into account that in a low scoring game you're much more likely to play small ball. Have any of you seen Bruce attempt to bunt? Yikes. Patterson fit the bill better today. And you've got the added bonus of Bruce's bat coming off the bench for some added pop late in the game. Hairstons injury changed that, but it was a solid decision nonetheless.

2.) "Bringing in Bray to face Fielder & Kapler"~Again, I don't buy it. We're already down one man in the pen with Burton unavailable. Bray has faced Fielder 6 times and Prince was 0-6 with 3 strikeouts against Bray. Bray is weaker against left-handed hitters, but Fielder is an exception to that rule based on thier limited history against one another. Leaving him in to face Kapler was criticized because he had just walked Fielder. Well, we're short-handed in the pen and we're in a very close ballgame. Why use a pitcher for just ONE batter when the next guy coming to the plate (Kapler) is a right-handed hitter~that Bray has managed to dominate this year. Regardless of the results, the decision was a solid one. He also coupled that decision with performing a double switch of bringing in Votto so he can swing in the top of the next inning. Prior to the results, that was not only a good managerial decision, it was nearly freaking perfect. Unfortunately, neither Bray or Votto performed well. That's far from Dusty's fault though.

3.) "Using Bray for the 3rd straight day was a dumb move"~Don't forget he's hampered by not having Burton. Somebody has to throw. I'm certainly not worried about overworking a 25-year-old kid when he's got the next several days off for the ASG. So that's not a good argument IMO.

4.) "Dusty should have brought in Lincoln to face kapler"~Only if you know the results beforehand. Bray's been money versus righties. If you can get Bray to finish the inning (or at least get out kapler) you can save your bullpen some innings. And in a tight game like this, extra innings is far from out of the question. Burning Bray for one batter with a righty coming up isn't the call there. Once Bray lost Kapler...it's pretty obvious he doesn't have it today...so don't sacrifice the game...that's when it's time to bring in a replacement (Lincoln).

5.) "Bullpen guys should not be used more than 2 days in a row as a rule"~And if you're down a pitcher due to injury? Do you just sacrifice a game to keep a kid from pitching a third day in a row even when he'll definitely get the next several days off? Nope, I don't think so. 3 in a row is fine as long as they're short outings (1 inning max).

6.) "Patterson should not be batting in the top of the 9th"~Okay, you've got somewhat of an argument here. But if you don't hit Patterson here, who do you hit? Javy is hitting .143 versus lefties, Bako is hitting .226 versus lefties and Patterson is hitting .143 versus lefties. But the bigger problem is this, if you do pinch hit for him and the game goes into extra innings...who's playing OF? Nope, Patterson had to hit there. In the late innings, his glove is more important than the one bat in the lineup. Besides, his speed and bunting ability are better used than Junior in right and his lack of speed or ability to play smallball.

7.) "Leaving Weathers out there for the 9th was dumb"~I think everybody knows how much I loathe Stormy...but again, not a bad move entirely. We were looking right in the face of an extra inning game. Dusty correctly held onto Affeldt in the pen just in case. He also was wanting to hold onto Cordero until he had to use him to get out of a jam. After the leadoff single and the fielding blunder to put them 1st & 2nd...Dusty knew he was going to walk the bases loaded. Why waste Cordero for that. Use Weathers. In order to get out of this jam you want a pitcher who can strike people out, that ain't Weathers. Now's the time for Cordero.
-----------------------------
All in all, this was probably the best managed game I've seen all year from Dusty. From the lineups to the use of the pitchers to the use of the double switch to the use of pinchhitters. Those of you slamming him for this game need to step back and look at things with a fresh perspective and not looking at it with 20-20 hindsight.

Sea Ray
07-13-2008, 05:58 PM
The biggest problem is roster construction. Facing lefthanders has been bad for this team because of no right-handed punch. Today, we had Patterson, Dunn, and Bruce in the lineup--three of the four our major big sticks who looked amost clueless against Sabathia. Off the bench, there is little help. This team is so lefthanded oriented that this is going to happen.


Actually their offensive numbers are better vs LHPs than RHPs. It appears right now that they're weak vs Lefties because they have three RH hitters out-Hairston, Freel and Hopper.

No way should Corey Patterson ever start vs a LHP. That's on Dusty. It was also Dusty who removed RH hitting Andy Phillips in favor of Votto.

WVRedsFan
07-13-2008, 06:02 PM
No way should Corey Patterson ever start vs a LHP. That's on Dusty. It was also Dusty who removed RH hitting Andy Phillips in favor of Votto.

Ah yes. Dusty loves him some double switch. But if you get down to it, the second inning was the culprit. Bases loaded with 0 out and we score one on a sac fly. Lack of hitting has been this year's biggest problem. It seems we have traded lack of pitching for lack of hitting. Neither is good.

Sea Ray
07-13-2008, 06:09 PM
Ah yes. Dusty loves him some double switch. But if you get down to it, the second inning was the culprit. Bases loaded with 0 out and we score one on a sac fly. Lack of hitting has been this year's biggest problem. It seems we have traded lack of pitching for lack of hitting. Neither is good.

You're right but to their credit, they have improved their record from this time last year. We'll see what the 2nd half brings because as I recall they did play over .500 in the 2nd half last year

WVRedsFan
07-13-2008, 06:19 PM
You're right but to their credit, they have improved their record from this time last year. We'll see what the 2nd half brings because as I recall they did play over .500 in the 2nd half last year
At this point last year, the Reds were 40-56, so the team is 6 games better. I tried to research this, but I believe the Reds were 36-38 in the second half last year and 32-34 in the last 66 games (I can't remember when Mackanin took over for Narron), so if they go better than .500, we'd see a near 80-win season--still a losing season, but better which is more than you can say for last year.

redsmetz
07-13-2008, 09:48 PM
At this point last year, the Reds were 40-56, so the team is 6 games better. I tried to research this, but I believe the Reds were 36-38 in the second half last year and 32-34 in the last 66 games (I can't remember when Mackanin took over for Narron), so if they go better than .500, we'd see a near 80-win season--still a losing season, but better which is more than you can say for last year.

According to baseball-reference.com, MacKannin managed 80 games, so that means he took the reins starting on July 3rd. Under him they went 41-39. At the halfway point, we were 31-50, winning Game #81 against the Caridinals. We finished at 72-90, so that means we went 41-40 in the 2nd half of the season. I'm figuring this on the actual halfway mark, not the ASB.

LoganBuck
07-13-2008, 10:28 PM
Ah yes. Dusty loves him some double switch. But if you get down to it, the second inning was the culprit. Bases loaded with 0 out and we score one on a sac fly. Lack of hitting has been this year's biggest problem. It seems we have traded lack of pitching for lack of hitting. Neither is good.

The good part is lack of hitting is the easier problem to fix.

WVRedsFan
07-13-2008, 11:11 PM
According to baseball-reference.com, MacKannin managed 80 games, so that means he took the reins starting on July 3rd. Under him they went 41-39. At the halfway point, we were 31-50, winning Game #81 against the Caridinals. We finished at 72-90, so that means we went 41-40 in the 2nd half of the season. I'm figuring this on the actual halfway mark, not the ASB.


I kept looking for the date Narron was fired, but couldn't find it. I was basing my states on the ESPN schedule going forward from 96 games.

Topcat
07-14-2008, 03:44 AM
And that is why Homer will never get it. That is just sad.


Oh man that post is going to haunt you!:bash: Talk about reactionary knowledge(sheesh) Truly embarrassed for you.:rolleyes:

redsmetz
07-14-2008, 05:32 AM
I kept looking for the date Narron was fired, but couldn't find it. I was basing my states on the ESPN schedule going forward from 96 games.

Yeah, I just checked baseball-reference and looked at how many games Mac managed. Eighty games just made the math easier!