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fewfirstchoice
07-13-2008, 06:02 PM
Dusty Bakers shoulders.Dusty is showing why the Cubs and Giants got rid of him.His mind bogling lineups, his man love for Patterson, and terrible control of a pitching staff and this is just to mention a few of his weak points.I was rather excited when he was hired as the Reds manager but I now see why the fans of the Cubbies and Giants were happey when he got fired.Unless he changes his ways soon I dont expect the Reds to make the playoffs for at least 3 more years(length of his contract).

Blue
07-13-2008, 06:07 PM
I don't know if the Reds won't make the playoffs while he is manager, but I do know that they will never be as good as they could be as long as he's in charge.

forfreelin04
07-13-2008, 06:08 PM
I figured someone would start a thread raining on the parade of going 3-3 on a road trip from arguably the 2 best teams in the NL. The Reds were destined to lose this game. I'm surprised they even made it a game to begin with. Should they have won? Probably! But, there's a plethora of other games where we should have lost (e.g. Friday night's game thanks to Brewer miscues)

I'm looking on the negative side due to the sheer fact that the Reds have poked their heads up again in the WC race. If they would have went 2-4 or 1-5 on this road trip, Walt's job is clear. Now they are holding on just enough to make him rethink his position as a total seller. This is not good if he decides to become a bit of a buyer and trade someone like an EdE or Votto at the deadline for some hitting or pitching.

keeganbrick
07-13-2008, 06:12 PM
EDE and Votto??? Those two are both untouchable from Walt's perspective. I would be amazed if either of those two are gone.

Blue
07-13-2008, 06:12 PM
That they win some games due to physical and mental errors on the part of the other team has nothing to do with the fact that they lost this one due to managerial incompetence, and doesn't make that fact any less important.

RedsFanInBama
07-13-2008, 06:13 PM
forfreelin04,

I didn't see the game, but if Baker made moves that hurt this team and its chances to win the game, that is a problem. Regardless of what the record was on this road trip.

dthomas24
07-13-2008, 06:19 PM
I figured someone would start a thread raining on the parade of going 3-3 on a road trip from arguably the 2 best teams in the NL. The Reds were destined to lose this game. I'm surprised they even made it a game to begin with. Should they have won? Probably! But, there's a plethora of other games where we should have lost (e.g. Friday night's game thanks to Brewer miscues)


I'm looking on the negative side due to the sheer fact that the Reds have poked their heads up again in the WC race. If they would have went 2-4 or 1-5 on this road trip, Walt's job is clear. Now they are holding on just enough to make him rethink his position as a total seller. This is not good if he decides to become a bit of a buyer and trade someone like an EdE or Votto at the deadline for some hitting or pitching.

That's baseball! You win some you should lose and you lose some you should win. I don't like the fact they went 3-3 on the road trip because they should have went 4-2 after today. Being satisfied with the 3-3 is the kind of attitude that will make you satisfied with a 82-80 season, a winning season. But what does that get this team? Nothing!!! Another year without the playoffs. Now did anyone expect them to go to the playoffs this year? No, but if they are going to make a run at the WC these are the games they have to win. We, or should I say the Reds, need to change their thinking. Don't be satisfied with a winning season, get to the playoffs!

I do agree with you here though. There is no clear cut direction on which way this team should go now. They should be sellers looking for next year, the year after, to really make a move for the ring but now there is that little glimmer of hope for this year.

Did I just contradict myself?:rolleyes:

forfreelin04
07-13-2008, 06:27 PM
That's baseball! You win some you should lose and you lose some you should win. I don't like the fact they went 3-3 on the road trip because they should have went 4-2 after today. Being satisfied with the 3-3 is the kind of attitude that will make you satisfied with a 82-80 season, a winning season. But what does that get this team? Nothing!!! Another year without the playoffs. Now did anyone expect them to go to the playoffs this year? No, but if they are going to make a run at the WC these are the games they have to win. We, or should I say the Reds, need to change their thinking. Don't be satisfied with a winning season, get to the playoffs!

I do agree with you here though. There is no clear cut direction on which way this team should go now. They should be sellers looking for next year, the year after, to really make a move for the ring but now there is that little glimmer of hope for this year.

Did I just contradict myself?:rolleyes:

Haha! You did, but I agree with the contradiction.

People can call me whatever they want. But, the fact that the Reds are hanging in there makes it that much more difficult for WJ to trade some pieces away to build for the future. Ede and Votto might not be traded, but if we are buyers someone has to go that plays in the future. (Maybe more along the lines of Thompson, Bailey, Francisco)

I would like to see this club make the playoffs. But, this team (as currently assembled will not, no matter what Walt brings back in return) will not. This isn't your older brothers NL Central. The Cubs are going to run away with the division and either St. Louis, Milwakee, or NYM/PHI will take the WC.

The harsh reality is this team is not going anywhere. Even if they would have won today, the fact remains the same. There are just too many holes to count. Wake up people, the best thing for Walt J to do is be a seller and build for 09 and beyond.

On a more positive note, I do like the Reds playing in these playoff atmospheres. It nurtures the mentality of players like Bruce, Votto, and the young pitchers. If this team were to simply go bottoms up, I don't think they feel the same pressures.

* On that note, I loved Votto's at bad against CC in the ninth. Votto could go on to have a great career (probably will), but he will never forget that at bat. Thousands of fans screaming for you to K, and you do. He's better off because of it. Doubt the same occurred in AAA.

reds2221
07-13-2008, 06:33 PM
dthomas, I do agree with you, but when it has been years since you last had a winning season, accomplishing that should be your primary goal.

FlyerFanatic
07-13-2008, 06:39 PM
contending for a wild card slot shouldnt be the goal, ever....we need to build a team thats going to compete for a WS...a team that is in first most the year..if not contending for 1st all year...i say blow up the team, build for the future.

dthomas24
07-13-2008, 06:40 PM
dthomas, I do agree with you, but when it has been years since you last had a winning season, accomplishing that should be your primary goal.

I understand what you're saying but I see this as the "Cincinnati sports attitude." As long as we have a winning season we are satisfied. The Bengals have 1 winning season in 18 years and you would have thought they had an NFL dynasty. (Of course this is coming from a Browns fan!!!) I just don't want this ownership to think they are going to pull the wool over our eyes saying that everything is great because the Reds win 82 games.

Kingspoint
07-13-2008, 07:13 PM
5 Holds and 4 Blown Saves for Bray with a 1.600 WHIP. He has taken only baby steps each of the last three seasons.

He needs to take a huge step the rest of this season so that next year he's ready to deliver the way he was projected to deliver....a WHIP of 1.100 and 15 Holds with only 3 Blown Saves.

Blue
07-13-2008, 07:21 PM
5 Holds and 4 Blown Saves for Bray with a 1.600 WHIP. He has taken only baby steps each of the last three seasons.

He needs to take a huge step the rest of this season so that next year he's ready to deliver the way he was projected to deliver....a WHIP of 1.100 and 15 Holds with only 3 Blown Saves.

I think he's striking enough guys out at this point that he just needs to have a clean slate to work with when he comes in. Kinda like Cordero.

fewfirstchoice
07-13-2008, 07:39 PM
I think the fact the the Reds went 3-3 on the road is great and in fact better than myself and many probably thought.But the bad part of it is that if Dusty wasnt in charge thy would ahve probably went 4-2 which would have been even better.Im just saying dusty makes stupid moves hat cost this club games in the standings.I would say he will probaby cost this team 7 or 8 games by his self with the way he manages.Dusty may be a players manager but he sure is in the heck isnt a good manager of talent.If he Reds had a manager that knew what they were doing this would probably be at 500 team or a game or 2 above.I hope and pray he starts doing better and turns this team around but from the half season sample ive seen he just isnt going to be able to do it.

James B.
07-13-2008, 07:46 PM
Today's loss falls directly on Joe Blow's Shoulders. Just fill in the blank with whoever the reds manager is. It seems some reds fans would not be happy with any manager. The names change but the complaining stays the same. In all reality it is not the managers fault but the players for losing. In my opinion, the reds problem is their defense. Even when they don't make errors their defense finds a way to hurt them almost every game. Votto is horrible at first. All three outfielders are below average at their positions. Really the only good defender the reds has is Brandon Phillips.

Nuxhall41
07-13-2008, 07:48 PM
The worst call of the day was allowing Bailey to swing away into the inning-ending double play. They had several chances early to jump on Sabathia but threw their opportunities away.

keeganbrick
07-13-2008, 07:59 PM
The worst call of the day was allowing Bailey to swing away into the inning-ending double play. They had several chances early to jump on Sabathia but threw their opportunities away.

Wow, I forgot all about this with the 9th inning debacle. Seriously, I dont know what Berry was thinking when he called Bailey over to him. It had to be obvious for the Brewers that something like that was on once Berry pulled him aside, at least show bunt the following pitch and try it the after the pitch after that. If someone else besides Hairston was coming up that play might not look as bad, but there is no way you allow Homer to hit with your hottest hitter on deck. Hey if that didnt happen Hairston woulnt be hurt right now:(...

Griffey012
07-13-2008, 08:33 PM
How bout the theory that CC Sabathia WON this game for the Brewers. Guy hits a home run and pitches 9 solid innings and finishes by striking out the side. The reds were trying to put up all the stops and just got beat. Half the reason Dusty can't seem to make a right move is because guys don't perform when called upon. It isn't all the managers fault. And how about the move to play Phillips today at first, got a nice double and led to one of the runs, how bout giving him some credit there.

Wait IT was Dusty who couldn't figure out how to field a stinking bunt wasn't it.

demas863
07-13-2008, 10:27 PM
That they win some games due to physical and mental errors on the part of the other team has nothing to do with the fact that they lost this one due to managerial incompetence, and doesn't make that fact any less important.

You know this is a tough business and Monday morning quarterbacking is very easy to do but I have to agree with you. When Dusty got called by Krivskey his thinking may have gone something like this. "Hell, if no-name Mackanin can get this club to play .500+ ball for half a season with the club shut down the last two weeks then with the promise of a big-time closer and my secret weapon (read as Patterson) I've got to show a much better record for the year and look like a star." Little did he realize that Mackanin actually did a great job motivating the troops and making wise moves from the dugout. I just don't remember Mackanin getting pummelled like Dusty has from this group. Ripped a bit,yes; but 'dats what we do'. :) I don't care to guess the number of "blown saves" Dusty's got but with just average managerial judgment we could have been right in the middle of things at this point.

improbus
07-13-2008, 11:49 PM
If you are a struggling team, the worst manager in the league is always your manager.

But, you can't blame Dusty for the following:
1. Terrible Defense: We have one above average defender in our everyday lineup.
2. No one after Volquez has ANY consistency in the rotation. Who say Harang staring down 20 losses? Who saw Homer's outing today after his last few? He's forced to play roulette with these guys.
3. A "Living Legend" who should be hitting 7th, playing out the string. Dunn should hit 3rd and Votto 5th. But, who tells a HOF'er to hit 7th? Would anyone have done that to Ted Williams?
4. 5 different shortstops
5. A Human Wasteland at the catcher position. Has this team even had an average catcher since Joe Oliver?
6. A team with a recent history of blame the manager, not the players.
7. Probably the thinnest bench in the NL (w/ the injuries)
8. A collection of pure streak hitters

Is he the perfect guy, no. But neither was Bob Boone, or Dave Miley, or Jerry Narron, or Pete M. At some point, you have to look beyond the manager.

Blue
07-14-2008, 12:36 AM
If you are a struggling team, the worst manager in the league is always your manager.

But, you can't blame Dusty for the following:
1. Terrible Defense: We have one above average defender in our everyday lineup.
2. No one after Volquez has ANY consistency in the rotation. Who say Harang staring down 20 losses? Who saw Homer's outing today after his last few? He's forced to play roulette with these guys.
3. A "Living Legend" who should be hitting 7th, playing out the string. Dunn should hit 3rd and Votto 5th. But, who tells a HOF'er to hit 7th? Would anyone have done that to Ted Williams?
4. 5 different shortstops
5. A Human Wasteland at the catcher position. Has this team even had an average catcher since Joe Oliver?
6. A team with a recent history of blame the manager, not the players.
7. Probably the thinnest bench in the NL (w/ the injuries)
8. A collection of pure streak hitters

Is he the perfect guy, no. But neither was Bob Boone, or Dave Miley, or Jerry Narron, or Pete M. At some point, you have to look beyond the manager.

I agree with most of this. I liked Mackannin, but didn't want him to get the permanent job simply because the Reds had developed a pattern of firing the manager and hiring the interim manager with a low-ball offer.

But, I think Dusty has proven himself to be awful, just awful. The fact that the team isn't built to win does not any better or worse a manager. He's just making really dumb moves repeatedly. If the Reds had a good team, I'd still complain about all the things he does wrong. Imagine if the Reds make the playoffs in 2009 or 2010. Playoff games are in theory between the most evenly matched teams in baseball, and should all be close games. Do you really want Dusty to be the manager in those games? Those are the types of games in which his mismanagement has the most effect. Blowing any one game would be catastrophic.

Its not that I think this team would go wire-to-wire with a different manager. Its just that they should have won a few more games than this this season, and in the future that could cost them dearly.

improbus
07-14-2008, 08:11 AM
I agree with most of this. I liked Mackannin, but didn't want him to get the permanent job simply because the Reds had developed a pattern of firing the manager and hiring the interim manager with a low-ball offer.

But, I think Dusty has proven himself to be awful, just awful. The fact that the team isn't built to win does not any better or worse a manager. He's just making really dumb moves repeatedly. If the Reds had a good team, I'd still complain about all the things he does wrong. Imagine if the Reds make the playoffs in 2009 or 2010. Playoff games are in theory between the most evenly matched teams in baseball, and should all be close games. Do you really want Dusty to be the manager in those games? Those are the types of games in which his mismanagement has the most effect. Blowing any one game would be catastrophic.

Its not that I think this team would go wire-to-wire with a different manager. Its just that they should have won a few more games than this this season, and in the future that could cost them dearly.
He completely mismanaged the Giants to game 7 of the WS...

Old NDN
07-14-2008, 10:51 AM
Dusty? Walt? Krivsky? Casto? I'm not sure who or which to blame. But, for me, today's game exposed a HUGE need for right handed bats. That was a pitiful effort by the Reds' lefties against CC. Some very embarrassing AB's! And,of course it didn't help matters when Dusty switched A. Phillips out of the game too early,IMO. I don't think Reds' management is giving this team enough options off the bench to compete with those teams in front. Can we win the division or wild card? Probably not. But at least "put some bullets in our gun" so it will be a fair fight.

Griffey012
07-14-2008, 11:31 AM
Dusty? Walt? Krivsky? Casto? I'm not sure who or which to blame. But, for me, today's game exposed a HUGE need for right handed bats. That was a pitiful effort by the Reds' lefties against CC. Some very embarrassing AB's! And,of course it didn't help matters when Dusty switched A. Phillips out of the game too early,IMO. I don't think Reds' management is giving this team enough options off the bench to compete with those teams in front. Can we win the division or wild card? Probably not. But at least "put some bullets in our gun" so it will be a fair fight.

Thank you for pointing out a weakspot in our team instead of bashing the manager for everything that goes wrong. As far as removing Phillips, that is something to argue especially after his double. Dusty may have got outsmarted because I am guessing he wasn't expecting CC to stay in the game that long.

bgwilly31
07-14-2008, 12:11 PM
That they win some games due to physical and mental errors on the part of the other team has nothing to do with the fact that they lost this one due to managerial incompetence, and doesn't make that fact any less important.

Exactly.


Today's loss falls directly on Joe Blow's Shoulders. Just fill in the blank with whoever the reds manager is. It seems some reds fans would not be happy with any manager. The names change but the complaining stays the same. In all reality it is not the managers fault but the players for losing. In my opinion, the reds problem is their defense. Even when they don't make errors their defense finds a way to hurt them almost every game. Votto is horrible at first. All three outfielders are below average at their positions. Really the only good defender the reds has is Brandon Phillips.

Yet wheres all the errors?

EE is a great 3rd basemen.
Harston is above avg in center.
Votto is not a horrible 1st basemen
Dunn is not a horrible LF. Hes made himself into a avg. LF

As for the manager. The manager made a huge mistake when he begged and pleaded for this team to fork out 3mil for CP.

First huge mistake. Second huge mistake is realizing he made that mistake and now trying to constantly mend this mistake by sticking the .189 hitter CP into the lineup hoping that he makes that mistake go away by going 4-4 with 2 hrs.

I cant tell you how stupid or how much sticking CP into this game hurt this team.

Having CP and ross at the end of the lineup is such a rally killer its unbelievable.

I didnt get to watch the game either but apparently there were some pitching mistakes as well. So with that i completely agree this loss can fall on Dusty bakers shoulders.

Griffey012
07-14-2008, 12:21 PM
I am still stunned as to how Patterson managed to hit .276 and .269 the last 2 seasons in Baltimore, I don't think the guy could hit that in AA right now.

Blue
07-14-2008, 05:31 PM
Thank you for pointing out a weakspot in our team instead of bashing the manager for everything that goes wrong. As far as removing Phillips, that is something to argue especially after his double. Dusty may have got outsmarted because I am guessing he wasn't expecting CC to stay in the game that long.

For the last time I don't blame Dusty for everything that goes wrong. I've said many times that this team is not a winner. That doesn't make his mismanagement any less of a problem.

akron3344
07-14-2008, 05:37 PM
baker brought in cordero anyway, why could nt he start the ninith inning and even pitch two innings with the break onthe horizon,baker is very slow mentally

Blue
07-14-2008, 05:42 PM
He completely mismanaged the Giants to game 7 of the WS...

There you go again, crediting the team's performance solely to the manager. Funny, that's what people on my side are always accused of though we rarely, if ever, do so.

When evaluating a manager, the question isn't "How well did the team perform?" its "How well should the team have performed?". I don't know about that season, but this season its pretty clear that there have been many close losses where Dusty has made obvious and glaring mistakes. While those mistakes wouldn't have made a difference in most of those games, the outcome likely would have been different in a few if the team was managed by someone of average competence. It doesn't matter right now because the team is bad. If the team is ever good, it could be the difference between making and missing the playoffs, winning and losing a playoff series.

Old NDN
07-14-2008, 06:23 PM
Thank you for pointing out a weakspot in our team instead of bashing the manager for everything that goes wrong. As far as removing Phillips, that is something to argue especially after his double. Dusty may have got outsmarted because I am guessing he wasn't expecting CC to stay in the game that long.

I'm not a big Dusty fan, but he shouldn't have to take all the blame for the team's shortcomings. I noticed during the game, when the double-switch of Phillips and Bailey was being contemplated, Dusty's discussion with Pole was shown on TV, probably to get his opinion. I know Dusty is the captain of the ship and is ultimately going to get the blame for the Reds' failures. But, he has plenty of help.

James B.
07-14-2008, 06:41 PM
Exactly.



Yet wheres all the errors?

EE is a great 3rd basemen.
Harston is above avg in center.
Votto is not a horrible 1st basemen
Dunn is not a horrible LF. Hes made himself into a avg. LF

As for the manager. The manager made a huge mistake when he begged and pleaded for this team to fork out 3mil for CP.

First huge mistake. Second huge mistake is realizing he made that mistake and now trying to constantly mend this mistake by sticking the .189 hitter CP into the lineup hoping that he makes that mistake go away by going 4-4 with 2 hrs.

I cant tell you how stupid or how much sticking CP into this game hurt this team.

Having CP and ross at the end of the lineup is such a rally killer its unbelievable.

I didnt get to watch the game either but apparently there were some pitching mistakes as well. So with that i completely agree this loss can fall on Dusty bakers shoulders.

You really think that E.E. is a "great" at third. I'm sorry but he has a long way to go to get that distinction. He has the ability to be a great at third but he has to start making the simple throws.

Dunn is not an above average leftfielder. I am not saying he isn't working hard. He just is not very good in the outfield.

Votto is horrible at scooping throws in the dirt. It seems like every time the ball is in the dirt or bounces he can't make a play on it. I think that if he works hard this is something he can improve on.

Hairston may be a pretty good in center but that is where Bruce plays and he is better suited for one of the corner outfield spots.

Griffey012
07-14-2008, 07:11 PM
For the last time I don't blame Dusty for everything that goes wrong. I've said many times that this team is not a winner. That doesn't make his mismanagement any less of a problem.

The fact the team is not a winner = Baker's mismanagement

Baker makes same move and guys perform like they are paid to do = Dusty awesome manager and redszone loves him

On another note, I don't love Dusty, I don't think he's anymore than an average manager. But literally every move he makes is the reason we lose every game according to Redszone. Without him we would be 10 games ahead of the cubs and the best record in baseball.

For example, Dusty pulls Homer, puts in Affeldt and Affeldy gives up the dinger it was Dusty's fault he should have put in Bray. Well he put in Bray and if Bray gave up a homer to Fielder it was stupid to put in Bray and should have left in Homer. If he leaves in Homer and he gives up a HR to fielder he was stupid for leaving the youngster in too long, he is trying to damage his arm by running up the pitch count, etc. This is an example of Dusty being at fault for everything wrong the Reds do, the pitchers' would never be accountable because they shouldnt be in the game in any of the scenarios.

Eric Davis
07-14-2008, 07:27 PM
The fact the team is not a winner = Baker's mismanagement

Baker makes same move and guys perform like they are paid to do = Dusty awesome manager and redszone loves him

On another note, I don't love Dusty, I don't think he's anymore than an average manager. But literally every move he makes is the reason we lose every game according to Redszone. Without him we would be 10 games ahead of the cubs and the best record in baseball.

For example, Dusty pulls Homer, puts in Affeldt and Affeldy gives up the dinger it was Dusty's fault he should have put in Bray. Well he put in Bray and if Bray gave up a homer to Fielder it was stupid to put in Bray and should have left in Homer. If he leaves in Homer and he gives up a HR to fielder he was stupid for leaving the youngster in too long, he is trying to damage his arm by running up the pitch count, etc. This is an example of Dusty being at fault for everything wrong the Reds do, the pitchers' would never be accountable because they shouldnt be in the game in any of the scenarios.


I think you nailed it dead on. Dusty is not a very good in game manager and I think most people here will agree with that. By the same token though it's really easy to sit here and second guess certain decisions. Bringing in Bray to face Fielder was the right move and Bray just didnt get it done. For the next batter Dusty simply screwed up and I'm sure he knows it. I don't think there's a manager on earth we couldn't sit here and second guess AFTER the game is over though.

Blue
07-14-2008, 08:57 PM
This is an example of Dusty being at fault for everything wrong the Reds do, the pitchers' would never be accountable because they shouldnt be in the game in any of the scenarios.

And that's the way an argument works, make up some scenarios and suppose a reaction to them that has no basis in fact. Way to support your argument. Well done, sir. Well done. Then, you pretty much took what I said about the team not being a winner and that not being Dusty's fault and said the exact opposite. Kinda threw me there.

I'll give that a try:

Dusty uses an overworked David Weathers for two innings in a tied game while Francisco Cordero sits out in the bullpen. The other team scores the winning run in predictable walk-off fashion. The Brewers should have won anyway because C.C. Sabathia was pitching against a usually shaky Homer Bailey. This is an example of Dusty never being accountable because the Reds didn't have any business being in a game that close anyway.

THAT WAS FUN! Oh wait, that actually happened. And it wasn't fun.

Griffey012
07-14-2008, 09:56 PM
And that's the way an argument works, make up some scenarios and suppose a reaction to them that has no basis in fact. Way to support your argument. Well done, sir. Well done. Then, you pretty much took what I said about the team not being a winner and that not being Dusty's fault and said the exact opposite. Kinda threw me there.

I'll give that a try:

Dusty uses an overworked David Weathers for two innings in a tied game while Francisco Cordero sits out in the bullpen. The other team scores the winning run in predictable walk-off fashion. The Brewers should have won anyway because C.C. Sabathia was pitching against a usually shaky Homer Bailey. This is an example of Dusty never being accountable because the Reds didn't have any business being in a game that close anyway.

THAT WAS FUN! Oh wait, that actually happened. And it wasn't fun.

My last line you quoted was complete sarcasm.

However, I agree Weathers should not have been in the game and Cordero should have at that point, the way I saw it was that we make it past the 9th we win because of how anemic their bullpen is and we still have Affeldt possibly some starters because of the all star break. I was making up a hypothetical situation based off something that happened in the game, to explain in some situations Dusty can do no right because it is entirely his fault if a player doesn't perform on the Reds, or a player on the Brewers simply steps up and performs.

And along other lines, no matter who is pitching and catching 2 veterans should be able to field an ok sacrifice bunt that is dropped right in front of the plate. Regardless of who is pitching that is not his fault. The same thing could have happened with Cordero in the game, and somehow Dusty would have been the one to blame.

Blue
07-14-2008, 10:07 PM
My last line you quoted was complete sarcasm.

However, I agree Weathers should not have been in the game and Cordero should have at that point, the way I saw it was that we make it past the 9th we win because of how anemic their bullpen is and we still have Affeldt possibly some starters because of the all star break. I was making up a hypothetical situation based off something that happened in the game, to explain in some situations Dusty can do no right because it is entirely his fault if a player doesn't perform on the Reds, or a player on the Brewers simply steps up and performs.

And along other lines, no matter who is pitching and catching 2 veterans should be able to field an ok sacrifice bunt that is dropped right in front of the plate. Regardless of who is pitching that is not his fault. The same thing could have happened with Cordero in the game, and somehow Dusty would have been the one to blame.

I don't blame him for performance problems I blame him for not putting his team in the best position to win. If he brings Cordero in and he gives up the winning run, so be it. At least you could say they gave it their best shot. That's the problem. It happened yesterday and so many other times this season.

Blue
07-14-2008, 10:08 PM
And I just got the sarcasm. Good grief.

markymark69
07-14-2008, 10:13 PM
I can buy that Dusty made some questionable moves, but he wasn't the one that mispayed the bunt in the ninth inning which had a lot to do with how that frame played out. He wasn't the one who gave up a home run to the opposing pitcher and I could go on.

Besides, I think Weather's is being showcased and with Majewski being horrible and Burton not available, he rolled the dice, which you have to do sometimes, and unfortunately it didn't work.

On a side note. I wonder if Brewers fans were complaining today about Sabathia throwing 122 pitches? Reds fans likely would be, even if it would have been a win. Maybe, Ned Yost can be blamed for ruining Sabathia's arm, I mean after all, how dare him try to win a game with his best pitcher.

Blue
07-14-2008, 10:21 PM
I can buy that Dusty made some questionable moves, but he wasn't the one that mispayed the bunt in the ninth inning which had a lot to do with how that frame played out. He wasn't the one who gave up a home run to the opposing pitcher and I could go on.

Besides, I think Weather's is being showcased and with Majewski being horrible and Burton not available, he rolled the dice, which you have to do sometimes, and unfortunately it didn't work.

On a side note. I wonder if Brewers fans were complaining today about Sabathia throwing 122 pitches? Reds fans likely would be, even if it would have been a win. Maybe, Ned Yost can be blamed for ruining Sabathia's arm, I mean after all, how dare him try to win a game with his best pitcher.


True, but he should have put the team in the best position to win. We'll never know if the Reds could have won the game, because Cordero wasn't brought in until the bases were loaded. Its a completely obvious move that you have to make there. I just don't understand the "yeah, Dusty screwed up, but other guys screwed up too" argument. How does that make it more acceptable that he keeps screwing up? It just makes him part of the problem, but not the entire problem. I don't think that's worth $10.5 million.

About Sabathia. He's 6'7" pushing 300 lbs. I think he can handle 122 pitches now and then. I wouldn't want Volquez or Cueto throwing that many.

Krawhitham
07-14-2008, 10:24 PM
Last year at the break the Reds were 16 games under .500

This season 4 games under .500

Griffey012
07-14-2008, 10:26 PM
The Brewers should use and abuse CC all they want, because he is just a rental after all, they have about a 2% chance of signing him.

improbus
07-14-2008, 10:28 PM
There you go again, crediting the team's performance solely to the manager. Funny, that's what people on my side are always accused of though we rarely, if ever, do so.

When evaluating a manager, the question isn't "How well did the team perform?" its "How well should the team have performed?". I don't know about that season, but this season its pretty clear that there have been many close losses where Dusty has made obvious and glaring mistakes. While those mistakes wouldn't have made a difference in most of those games, the outcome likely would have been different in a few if the team was managed by someone of average competence. It doesn't matter right now because the team is bad. If the team is ever good, it could be the difference between making and missing the playoffs, winning and losing a playoff series.

And yet he has probably made many moves that have won games. Maybe he pulled the pitcher at just the right time. Who knows? Dusty Baker is NOT the reason the Reds aren't contending. The Cubs have 8 All-Stars (some are questionable, but it is still a HUGE number), that is why they are in first. The Brewers have offensive studs at 4 positions and two #1 starters, that is why they are in 2nd. The Cardinals are getting great starting pitching, their bullpen is extremely underrated, they have committed the fourth least errors in baseball, and they have Pujols. What do the Reds have? One starter pitching well, two relievers pitching well, and a shaky offense. Sounds like a winning recipe to me. Look, it doesn't matter what Dusty does. In fact, I'm impressed at how he has stuck with the Rookies. I thought he would play Hatteberg as much as Votto. I thought he would platoon Bruce more when he got up. I didn't think he would stick with Cueto when he started to falter. He has a history of liking veterans, and we were all worried that he would do the same here, but for the most part he hasn't.

Blue
07-14-2008, 10:30 PM
Last year at the break the Reds were 16 games under .500

This season 4 games under .500

Ergo, they are a better team this year than they were last year. Doesn't tell me anything about Dusty Baker. If not for him, maybe they wouldn't have a losing record to this point? Is that so difficult to comprehend?

Blue
07-14-2008, 10:36 PM
Dusty Baker is NOT the reason the Reds aren't contending.

I don't know how much clearer I can be in saying that I agree with this, at least with regard to the division crown. The fact that he is just part of the problem does not leave me with warm feelings about him being in charge.



Look, it doesn't matter what Dusty does.

Yes. Yes it does. He should not be making this team worse than it really is. Its almost a .500 team. It probably would be a .500 team right now if it had a manager of average competence.

markymark69
07-14-2008, 10:42 PM
True, but he should have put the team in the best position to win. We'll never know if the Reds could have won the game, because Cordero wasn't brought in until the bases were loaded. Its a completely obvious move that you have to make there. I just don't understand the "yeah, Dusty screwed up, but other guys screwed up too" argument. How does that make it more acceptable that he keeps screwing up? It just makes him part of the problem, but not the entire problem. I don't think that's worth $10.5 million.

About Sabathia. He's 6'7" pushing 300 lbs. I think he can handle 122 pitches now and then. I wouldn't want Volquez or Cueto throwing that many.

Don't disagree. But, if the team loses with Cordero, it would have been Dusty's fault that they lost because Patterson played or some other reason. We can blame Dusty for Patterson being on the team, but I think if Jocketty said enough is enough that he would be gone and he hasn't done that yet. Patterson is the fourth OF right now, even they have to start occasionally. I mean that was his first start in a long time.

My sarcastic point about Sabathia was more concerning Harang than Volquez or Cueto. The "infamous" four innings that he pitched in San Diego. Again, you can argue that Dusty made some questionable moves, but who in the world thought that game would go 18 innings? Dusty was trying to win that game and it Harang's bullpen day anyway.

If you want to argue about Harang's injury, it could be bringing him back on short rest after the four innings, not the four innings itself, I would be with you there. Plus, Harang wasn't pitching that well before that anyway.

With Harang 3-11 and Arroyo being very inconsistent, the fifth spot being a distaster (until recently) and Dunn and Griffey not producing like expected, and an overall hit and (mostly) miss offense, to be 46-50 at this point is more of a credit to Dusty than a negative.

They are 10-5 in the last 15 also.

Blue
07-14-2008, 10:50 PM
Don't disagree. But, if the team loses with Cordero, it would have been Dusty's fault that they lost because Patterson played or some other reason.

Those mistakes add up too. And I would still no more credit Dusty for the team's performance than I would criticize him for it. My criticisms of him are all about him and his moves. A bad move is a bad move whether it hurts you or not.

improbus
07-14-2008, 11:12 PM
If you want to argue about Harang's injury, it could be bringing him back on short rest after the four innings, not the four innings itself, I would be with you there. Plus, Harang wasn't pitching that well before that anyway.


Knowing ballplayers, I can almost guarantee that Harang aksed for the ball. If I were the "ace", I would.

markymark69
07-14-2008, 11:23 PM
Those mistakes add up too. And I would still no more credit Dusty for the team's performance than I would criticize him for it. My criticisms of him are all about him and his moves. A bad move is a bad move whether it hurts you or not.


Blue,

What's he supposed to do then? The roster is the roster. He can only use what he has at his disposal.

The move was a gamble, that doesn't necessarily make it bad or good.
It was the result that was not good. Had it worked, Dusty certainly would not have gotten credit for the win, he would have been, probably just lucky. But obviously it didn't work, so Dusty gets the blame.

I think Burton being hurt changed the whole dynamic of the series. He likely would have been in there in the 8th or the 9th yesterday and certainly would have been in either Friday or Saturday, which also means Weathers probably doesn't pitch all three games.

Blue
07-14-2008, 11:38 PM
Its a gamble in the same way that its a gamble to say "Hit me." on 19. It might work, but you have a better option.

Fon Duc Tow
07-15-2008, 09:16 AM
I just don't understand the "yeah, Dusty screwed up, but other guys screwed up too" argument. How does that make it more acceptable that he keeps screwing up? It just makes him part of the problem, but not the entire problem. I don't think that's worth $10.5 million.


Exactly.

improbus
07-15-2008, 09:56 AM
Worrying about Dusty is like worrying about the garnishes on the top of a steak. If the steak itself is terrible, the garnishes really don't matter. We always worry about the toppings, and never about the meat itself.

BTW, get used to Dusty. The Reds are paying him too much money to cut him loose.