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View Full Version : There comes a time when you have to throw "respect" out the window



LouisvilleCARDS
07-13-2008, 09:52 PM
I get sick of hearing about how Junior and Dunn have "earned" their spot, so Dusty isn't going to shake the trees and platoon these guys against lefties. Their numbers are atrocious.

Junior: .206/.322/.333
Dunn: .179/.375/.321

Hairston should take at least one of these guys spot and start Keppinger at short whenever a left hander is pitching.

ChatterRed
07-13-2008, 10:02 PM
Hairston is now hurt. There goes the season.

keeganbrick
07-13-2008, 10:06 PM
I know, Hairston and Keppinger should start a lot against lefties unless Jr or Dunn have good career numbers against that pitcher. The approach our lefties took against CC was really disgusting, Jr's pinch hit....lmao. The whole game CC just threw that outside slider against every single lefty. I would say about 75% of the time it was a ball, but our guys couldnt lay off of it and that was a big reason CC's pitch count never went up and he was still pitching in the freaking 9th inning. I understand he is a great pitcher but our guys should have jus been up there taking more pitches and there would have been a lot of 3 ball counts then CC could have been gone in or after the 7th.

ChatterRed
07-13-2008, 10:09 PM
Junior and Dunn are too proud to read the scouting report. I'm sure they think they know it all and just wing it when they go up to bat.

redsfanmia
07-13-2008, 10:17 PM
Junior and Dunn are too proud to read the scouting report. I'm sure they think they know it all and just wing it when they go up to bat.

You cant be serious. I am not a Dunn fan and Jr needs to retire but to insult them like this is just over the top.

Blue
07-14-2008, 12:41 AM
A .375 OBP is not atrocious. The rest of those numbers aren't good at all, but having a .375 OBP hitting high in the order is not hurting the team.

Blue
07-14-2008, 12:48 AM
I might add that it hurts the team a lot more that Keppinger and Phillips hit high in the order against RHPs.

Keppinger:

.257/.306/.331

Phillips:

.241/.284/.374

... a lot more RHPs than LHPs out there...

TC81190
07-14-2008, 02:25 AM
Wow, I was not aware of those numbers so far. Having said that, Dunn usually fares pretty well against LHP, and while the average is pretty bad right now, he's at least getting on base. I would like to be able to maybe platoon Jr. against LHP, but we don't have anybody out there who would fare any better (Patterson? No...), and if they could, they would likely deserve to start everyday over him, anyway.

will5979
07-14-2008, 07:40 AM
I lost respect for Jr. a long time ago when the player that he was in Seattle suddenly disappeared. I still remember when he came to the Reds and everyone thought it would be the reincarnaton of the Big Red Machine. Instead it has been the worse decade of our history. I've been ready for Griffey to go since 2001.

44Magnum
07-14-2008, 10:58 AM
You have to earn respect?

Dunn and Jr. have both lost my respect with their lazy play.

improbus
07-14-2008, 11:19 AM
I thing Junior should be hitting in the 7 hole, even against righties. He's just not an elite hitter anymore.

1-Hairston
2-Bruce
3-Dunn
4-Phillips
5-Votto
6-EE
7-Griffey
8-Bako/Ross/Some guy off the street who would be just as good

If you go by the numbers, here are the percentages of Inherited Runners Knocked In for each of the Reds listed above:
Hairston:23%
Bruce: 19%
Dunn: 19%
Phillips: 19%
Votto: 21%
EE: 17%
Griffey: 20%
Bako: 17%

BlfdVaFan
07-14-2008, 11:26 AM
You cant be serious. I am not a Dunn fan and Jr needs to retire but to insult them like this is just over the top.

Dunn seems to go deep into the count unless it is against a lefty. Against righties he takes to many border pitches to satify me. Against lefties like CC he waves at three pitches.

The sad thing about Junior is that the Jr you see now is the one that you will remember.

John Kruk looked better against Randy Johnson in the All Star game than either one of these guys looked against CC.

As far as insults go, how is the truth an insult?

BLEEDS
07-14-2008, 02:03 PM
I might add that it hurts the team a lot more that Keppinger and Phillips hit high in the order against RHPs.

... a lot more RHPs than LHPs out there...

DING DING DING!!! Show him what he's won Bob!!

Phillips is nailed into that 4 slot regardless, even though he's HORRIFIC and bounces into more Double Plays than is humanly possible. And don't forget EE's struggles with RHP.

Everybody's worried about us facing tough lefties, but we've got these splits down the line:

Versus RHP:


*J Cabrera 7* 17* 1* 7* 1* 0* 0* 2* 2* 4* 0* 0* .412* .474* .471* .944*
*J Hairston Jr. 51* 124* 19* 41* 9* 2* 1* 15* 5* 17* 10* 1* .331* .362* .460* .821*
*Jay Bruce 43* 108* 18* 32* 5* 0* 6* 17* 8* 27* 1* 2* .296* .347* .509* .857*
*David Ross 34* 53* 4* 15* 6* 0* 2* 7* 12* 11* 0* 0* .283* .424* .509* .934*
*Joey Votto 88* 204* 23* 56* 15* 0* 7* 18* 20* 33* 2* 2* .275* .339* .451* .790*
*Ryan Freel 43* 69* 8* 18* 2* 0* 0* 6* 4* 11* 3* 2* .261* .297* .290* .587*
*Jeff Keppinger 57* 148* 15* 38* 8* 0* 1* 10* 10* 8* 2* 1* .257* .306* .331* .637*
*Adam Dunn 91* 204* 38* 51* 9* 0* 23* 50* 46* 64* 1* 1* .250* .385* .632* 1.017*
*K Griffey Jr. 89* 212* 31* 53* 9* 0* 10* 31* 38* 33* 0* 1* .250* .361* .434* .795*
*J Valentín 39* 56* 2* 14* 4* 0* 0* 6* 4* 10* 0* 0* .250* .295* .321* .617*
*B Phillips 92* 257* 33* 62* 12* 2* 6* 31* 16* 55* 11* 3* .241* .284* .374* .658*
*E Encarnación 84* 211* 28* 50* 12* 1* 12* 28* 17* 40* 0* 0* .237* .303* .474* .777*
*Paul Bako 63* 141* 20* 30* 4* 0* 3* 16* 20* 37* 0* 2* .213* .311* .305* .616*
*C Patterson 65* 164* 23* 33* 9* 1* 6* 15* 7* 19* 8* 3* .201* .233* .378* .611*
*S Hatteberg 30* 42* 3* 8* 3* 0* 0* 5* 6* 5* 0* 1* .190* .286* .262* .548*
*A Phillips 14* 12* 2* 2* 0* 0* 0* 1* 2* 3* 0* 0* .167* .286* .167* .452*
*Norris Hopper 20* 24* 2* 3* 0* 0* 0* 1* 3* 3* 0* 0* .125* .250* .125* .375*
*Paul Janish 21* 40* 1* 4* 0* 0* 0* 2* 3* 13* 0* 0* .100* .200* .100* .300*



Versus LHP:


*J Hairston Jr. 35* 64* 15* 25* 8* 0* 1* 7* 9* 9* 5* 2* .391* .461* .563* 1.023*
*Jeff Keppinger 32* 66* 6* 25* 1* 1* 2* 12* 9* 0* 0* 0* .379* .453* .515* .968*
*B Phillips 55* 115* 20* 42* 6* 3* 9* 27* 8* 9* 8* 1* .365* .408* .704* 1.112*
*Ryan Freel 23* 62* 9* 21* 6* 0* 0* 4* 4* 7* 3* 2* .339* .388* .435* .824*
*Paul Janish 14* 24* 2* 8* 1* 0* 0* 3* 3* 3* 0* 0* .333* .407* .375* .782*
*E Encarnación 47* 86* 19* 27* 7* 0* 3* 7* 16* 13* 1* 0* .314* .427* .500* .927*
*Joey Votto 51* 104* 16* 30* 3* 0* 6* 22* 13* 31* 2* 2* .288* .370* .490* .860*
*Norris Hopper 13* 26* 1* 7* 0* 0* 0* 0* 2* 3* 1* 0* .269* .321* .269* .591*
*David Ross 27* 50* 7* 12* 1* 0* 1* 5* 9* 14* 0* 1* .240* .350* .320* .670*
*Paul Bako 37* 62* 5* 14* 2* 2* 3* 10* 3* 22* 0* 0* .226* .262* .468* .729*
*Jay Bruce 28* 55* 8* 12* 3* 0* 0* 4* 7* 18* 1* 1* .218* .313* .273* .585*
*K Griffey Jr. 55* 103* 12* 21* 7* 0* 2* 13* 17* 25* 0* 0* .204* .320* .330* .650*
*Adam Dunn 52* 86* 10* 15* 3* 0* 3* 9* 23* 35* 0* 0* .174* .371* .314* .685*
*C Patterson 23* 35* 5* 5* 0* 0* 0* 1* 1* 6* 2* 2* .143* .189* .143* .332*
*J Valentín 12* 14* 2* 2* 2* 0* 0* 1* 1* 2* 0* 0* .143* .200* .286* .486*
*A Phillips 10* 16* 0* 2* 2* 0* 0* 4* 0* 3* 0* 0* .125* .125* .250* .375*



Keppinger's OBP against RHP is .300; which is still better than Phillips, who is actually PATHETIC against RHP, with a .374 slugging percentage - which is LESS THAN COREY PATTERSON - and a .658 OPS against Righties, where he gets 70% of his At bats... Talk about OVERRATED. But let's focus on the 30% of the pitching we face for Dunn, who despite a .170 BA, STILL OUT-OPS's versus Lefties what BP does against Righties!!!!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
07-14-2008, 02:05 PM
Dunn seems to go deep into the count unless it is against a lefty. Against righties he takes to many border pitches to satify me. Against lefties like CC he waves at three pitches.

He has a .371 OBP against lefties, so...



As far as insults go, how is the truth an insult?

Hate for "FACTS" to get in the way of the "TRUTH"...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
07-14-2008, 02:09 PM
and, just to check, we ARE talking about a guy who's posting this line in July right?!?!:


G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
*July 11 37 6 10 1 0 6 11 3 11 0 0 0.270 0.333 0.784 1.117

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
07-14-2008, 05:10 PM
Suddenly got quiet in here... :p:

Wonder what BPhil's CAREER line is against RHP?:



B Phillips G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
*vs. Left 278 573 88 176 23 4 30 83 40 81 39 6 0.307 0.352 0.518 0.871
*vs. Right 521 1417 180 352 72 10 38 182 71 272 41 15 0.248 0.292 0.394 0.686


SO, 71% of the time, you can expect him to give you a .686 OPS, while Dunn gives you an ~.935 OPS.

28% of the time, BP will give you an .871 OPS, while Dunn will give you an ~.830 OPS.

I love these "arguments"...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

LouisvilleCARDS
07-14-2008, 06:58 PM
There's a different. There's no real replacement for Phillips, his defense, or anyone else who would play 2B would be a huge falloff. Meanwhile Hairston could be put out there and be better defensively and be a better bat.

Yeah pretty good "argument" to me. I mean if the guy is such adept at getting on base, I don't see why he can't cut down on his strikeouts and put the ball on the bat more often?

Blue
07-14-2008, 09:06 PM
I find it funny that you say "I mean if the guy is such (sic) adept at getting on base..." as if there's really any question about that.

improbus
07-15-2008, 11:19 AM
BLEEDS, you might be on to something. Th Reds are actually 17-17 vs. Lefty Starters, and 29-33 vs. Righties.

Also, the Reds splits of RH v. RP, RH v. LP, LH v. RP, and LH v. LP are about the same as that of MLB as a whole.

BUT, when I was looking down the list of games vs. Lefties, here is what I did see:
The Reds get completely dominated by the good lefties.
Cole Hamels - 7 innings, 1 ER
Santana - 6 innings 3 ER
Hamels - CG Shutout
Pettitte - 6 innings 0 ER
Sabathia - 8 innings 0 ER
Sabathia - 9 innings 2 ER

BLEEDS
07-15-2008, 11:47 AM
BLEEDS, you might be on to something. Th Reds are actually 17-17 vs. Lefty Starters, and 29-33 vs. Righties.

Also, the Reds splits of RH v. RP, RH v. LP, LH v. RP, and LH v. LP are about the same as that of MLB as a whole.

BUT, when I was looking down the list of games vs. Lefties, here is what I did see:
The Reds get completely dominated by the good lefties.
Cole Hamels - 7 innings, 1 ER
Santana - 6 innings 3 ER
Hamels - CG Shutout
Pettitte - 6 innings 0 ER
Sabathia - 8 innings 0 ER
Sabathia - 9 innings 2 ER

Who doesn't?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

CWRed
07-15-2008, 01:00 PM
You have to earn respect?

Dunn and Jr. have both lost my respect with their lazy play.

Give me a break. :rolleyes:

demas863
07-15-2008, 03:03 PM
You cant be serious. I am not a Dunn fan and Jr needs to retire but to insult them like this is just over the top.

I don't view the comment as an insult though there could have been a better choice of words. Do you happen to know for sure that they both read the scouting report?