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Brutus
07-14-2008, 03:42 PM
Here's a fun topic to pass away the All-Star week... name your choice for most underrated player in your life span.

I'm 28 years old, so for me, I think I'm going to go with Edgar Martinez.

Often overshadowed by Ken Griffey Jr., Alex Rodriguez, Randy Johnson and even Jay Buhner or Tino Martinez, Edgar could flat out hit.

For 7 straight seasons (1993-2000), Martinez hit at least 20 home runs. Fifteen times in his career he broke double-digits. Six times he drove in 100 runs or more. Ten (10) times he hit at least .300 and his career OPS+ was 47 percent over league average.

Career averages:

.312 Batting Average
302 Home Runs
1283 RBI's
.418 OBP
.515 SLG
.933 OPS
1,283 walks to 1,202 strikeouts

I really think Martinez was the most underrated hitter in the 1990's, but because of his infamous teammates, never really got the credit he deserved.

44Magnum
07-14-2008, 03:51 PM
Eric Keith Davis

RedLegsToday
07-14-2008, 04:05 PM
Adam Dunn

texasdave
07-14-2008, 04:32 PM
Brian Giles

tommycash
07-14-2008, 05:00 PM
I have to agree and say Brian Giles or Harold Baines

Griffey012
07-14-2008, 05:11 PM
We could potentially be watching one right under our eyes in Brandon Phillips. He gets not credit anywhere outside of Cincy, if we was on the Red Sox or Yankees he would be known as the best all around 2nd baseman in the game and would be all over sportscenter constantly.

levydl
07-14-2008, 05:24 PM
Eddie Murray.

ChatterRed
07-14-2008, 05:36 PM
Harmon Killebrew

schmidty622
07-14-2008, 05:57 PM
josh Hamilton!!!!!!!!!!!1111111

Root Down
07-14-2008, 06:18 PM
Yeah I'm going to go with Phillips on this one, that guy can flat out play.

Lockdwn11
07-14-2008, 06:19 PM
I have two.....

César Gerónimo

Barry Larkin

BlastFurnace
07-14-2008, 07:26 PM
This reminds me of some of the topics that are discussed on Baseball-Fever. To me, an underrated player is someone who was great, but doesn't get the recognition they deserve. They may have not been underrated when they played, but based upon today's huge HR numbers, they are not looked upon as they should be today. IMO, players from the 70's a and 80's, such as: Bert Blyleven, Dave Concepcion, and Andre Dawson come to mind right away.

Concepcion's numbers are subpar compared to A-Rod, Jeter, Tejada and others...but in the 70's, he was the decade's best SS. It's a shame he may never make it to the HOF because he is compared to today's players.

redsfanmia
07-14-2008, 07:28 PM
Adam Dunn

Underrated not overrated

redsfanmia
07-14-2008, 07:29 PM
Barry Larkin.

He got it!
07-14-2008, 07:31 PM
Scott Sullivan :)

dougflynn23
07-15-2008, 02:27 AM
:) I'd go with Tim Raines. He might be the 3rd best leadoff hitter in modern baseball behind only Rickey Henderson and Pete Rose.

goreds2
07-15-2008, 03:20 AM
Harmon Killebrew

AGREED:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/killeha01.shtml

improbus
07-15-2008, 09:48 AM
Robin Roberts

Ghosts of 1990
07-15-2008, 12:05 PM
Bip Roberts

Va Red Fan
07-15-2008, 04:37 PM
Jim Rice

tommycash
07-15-2008, 05:16 PM
I can't agree with Killebrew or Roberts because they did not play in my lifetime, but if you said all-time, they would have a case in my book. I would think that guys like Joe Carter, Roberto Alomar, Willie McGee, Frank White, and Willie Wilson all had underrated careers too.

reds1869
07-15-2008, 05:32 PM
Andres Galarraga. Despite a lifetime .288 BA and 399 career homeruns (and over 1,400 RBI!), he never really got that much attention in the US. If his career had happened in the current era of endless highlight shows and had not been largely based in Canada, I believe he would have been much more respected.

RED VAN HOT
07-16-2008, 04:06 PM
Kenny Lofton. Lifetime .299 avg; four gold gloves; 15th all time in steals; nearly as many BB as K's. These are probably not good enough stats for the HOF. What makes him underrated IMO is that he made post season in 11 of his 17 seasons and with 5 different franchises. Cleveland brought him back twice. He was often that last piece of the puzzle needed to put teams into the post season. He would have been a nice alternative to Cory Patterson.

RSNtransplant
07-16-2008, 04:13 PM
Harmon Killebrew

He has a plaque in Cooperstown, how is that underrated?

superred
07-16-2008, 04:27 PM
barry larkin is underrated by the national media

akron3344
07-16-2008, 05:09 PM
greg maddux

Ghosts of 1990
07-16-2008, 05:12 PM
I mean I'd like to say for instance, Chris Stynes. The guy was a good pure hitter. He could flat out rake, and I don't mean power I just mean he was a line drive machine. Better hitter than Keppinger is and I think Keppinger gets a lot of credit, more than Stynes ever did.

But on the wide spectrum, unless you LOVE baseball or the Reds especially, you don't know who Chris Stynes is.

So I can't say Stynes. I'd also like to say Alex Ochoa.

So I'm trying to think of someone who is known, but doesn't get credit..... the 'Dan Fouts' of MLB.

akron3344
07-16-2008, 05:51 PM
brad gulden

UC_Ken
07-16-2008, 06:15 PM
greg maddux

I wouldn't say most underrated but he is definately very underrated. I think his perception is Maddux is a control guy who was very good for a very long time but his peak years in the mid-90's were as dominant as Pedro and Clemens were in their peak years. And Maddux is around 10th all time in K's so he wasn't a pitch to contact pitcher. In my opinion Maddux is the best pitcher in my lifetime (29 yrs).

LexingtonLegend
07-16-2008, 08:21 PM
Mine is a toss up between Eddie Murray, Tony Gwynn, and John Smoltz

Wallyposter
07-16-2008, 11:53 PM
Vada Pinson

George Foster
07-17-2008, 01:34 AM
Brett Butler...the best lead off hitter ever?

Slyder
07-17-2008, 02:32 AM
Todd "Money" Walker.

During his career all he did was make plays. He didnt do anything spectacularly but he did everything well. Even fielding he was very underrated imo. Didnt make any really bad plays. Everytime he come up to bat as a red you could feel he have something special brewing.

Theres my 2 cents.

mroby85
07-17-2008, 03:26 AM
Rafael Palmeiro

walk-off
07-17-2008, 04:12 AM
Brandon Phillips
He was the centerpiece of the trade that nabbed Cleveland's Grady Sizemore and Cliff Lee, then they give up on him after giving him just 31 at bats in 2004 and 2005, then traded for a player to be named later. Since then he has been over looked big time in Cincy as a gold glover and an All Star while being a wizzard at 2B and about to go 30-30 for the second year in a row. No love for BP!!!

Kingspoint
07-17-2008, 05:26 AM
Hard to argue with that one walk-off. The quiet guys really do get overlooked.

Dale Murphy dominated his league for 10 years and never took any steroids. The last half of his career was loaded with players that were taking steroids, so his career homerun totals are scewed compared to them. 400 homeruns means something in the non-steroids world. He also played on some absolutely horrible teams.

Kingspoint
07-17-2008, 05:34 AM
Here's a fun topic to pass away the All-Star week... name your choice for most underrated player in your life span.

I'm 28 years old, so for me, I think I'm going to go with Edgar Martinez.

Often overshadowed by Ken Griffey Jr., Alex Rodriguez, Randy Johnson and even Jay Buhner or Tino Martinez, Edgar could flat out hit.

For 7 straight seasons (1993-2000), Martinez hit at least 20 home runs. Fifteen times in his career he broke double-digits. Six times he drove in 100 runs or more. Ten (10) times he hit at least .300 and his career OPS+ was 47 percent over league average.

Career averages:

.312 Batting Average
302 Home Runs
1283 RBI's
.418 OBP
.515 SLG
.933 OPS
1,283 walks to 1,202 strikeouts

I really think Martinez was the most underrated hitter in the 1990's, but because of his infamous teammates, never really got the credit he deserved.

Edgar Martinez is the greatest "thinker" at the plate I've ever seen.

Here's a stat that shows you how great he was: He's the only Right-Hander in the American League to have won 2 batting titles since Joe Dimaggio. Few people realize these two facts, but the Mariners kept him in AAA for too many seasons as he dominated in Tacoma wasting away precious key years. Also, when he first came up, he played defensively 3rd Base identically to Ron Cey, but with a bit more range. For those of you who have seen Ron Cey play 3rd Base well, you know what I'm talking about. Then Edgar had some nasty injuries, and that was it for him defensively. It's amazing he was still able to hit so well.

Caveman Techie
07-17-2008, 08:51 AM
Harang, hands down no questions about it is the most under-rated Reds player in my lifetime.

big boy
07-17-2008, 11:06 AM
Guys that are in the HOF are not underrated. How can HOF players be underrated when they have received the highest honor?

Guys like Larkin, Maddux, and Smoltz are likely going in as well and should be removed from consideration.

Caveman Techie
07-17-2008, 11:55 AM
Yeah with Larkin I wouldn't call a guy with 12 All-star selections, 9 Silver Slugger awards, 3 Gold Gloves, and an NL MVP award as "under-rated".

superred
07-17-2008, 02:18 PM
Yeah with Larkin I wouldn't call a guy with 12 All-star selections, 9 Silver Slugger awards, 3 Gold Gloves, and an NL MVP award as "under-rated".

well compared 2 the other shortstops that played while he did he was

Rob387
07-17-2008, 03:34 PM
Bert Blyleven
22 year career ERA of 3.90
287 Wins
3701 Strikeouts

and no HOF

Orodle
07-17-2008, 04:03 PM
Barry Larkin and Scott Sullivan.

AFalcon10
07-17-2008, 05:09 PM
I honestly have seen nothing like the lack of respect that is given to Brandon Phillips. Beyond being robbed of a gold glove, BP didnt even finish in the top 8 of all star voting this past year. That is nothing short of a disgrace. Utter lack of recognition for, in my opinion, one of the best middle infielders in the game.

Kingspoint
07-17-2008, 07:32 PM
You wonder why Brandon Phillips gets no respect?

Look no further than the Cincinnati REDS' own website.

The 1st Half MVP was given to Hairston, a guy who hasn't even played in half of the team's games and who plays sub-par Defense at SS and CF, the two position's he's played "part-time" this year, and he's back on the DL again.

All Phillips did for the team so far this year is begin by signing in Mid-February a 4-year contract that is probably less than market-value.


Then he plays Gold Glove defense while not committing an error since Jerry Hairston, Sr. was playing baseball, or so it seems. He's gotten to a 100 balls (and made the plays) that Hairston, Jr would only be able to stand while watching them go by him. Then Phillips shows up every day, every inning. Brandon Phillips is the ballast of the vessel that is the Cincinnati REDS, the MVP, the Quiet Man, he leads by example. Yet, the REDS' own website slaps him in the face by suggesting that Hairston is the 1st Half MVP.

C'mon, REDS! Give the recognition to the guy who does his job the way everyone should.

Now the article is written by a guy, Marc Sheldon, who gets paid by mlb.com, but that's no excuse for allowing the article to be written and then not doing something about to correct it. Almost every team's website is run by Sportsline.com, but the content is still the responsibility of the club.

Phillips isn't going to say anything because he's not that kind of a guy, but it hurts him no matter what. Everyone wants to be appreciated for what they do.

Hairston? MVP? Give me a break.

It's Brandon Phillips without question.

tommycash
07-17-2008, 07:36 PM
Heres another guy I thought of that doesn't get a lot of credit today for what he did, Jack Morris

Stephenk29
07-17-2008, 08:55 PM
Barry Larkin

Fred McGriff

Carlos Delgado

Mike Mussina

Craig Biggio

Steve Finley

bigred97
07-17-2008, 10:22 PM
Andre Dawson

FlyingPig
07-17-2008, 10:33 PM
I was going to say Andre Dawson as well.

Kingspoint
07-19-2008, 01:21 AM
You wonder why Brandon Phillips gets no respect?

Look no further than the Cincinnati REDS' own website.

The 1st Half MVP was given to Hairston, a guy who hasn't even played in half of the team's games and who plays sub-par Defense at SS and CF, the two position's he's played "part-time" this year, and he's back on the DL again.

All Phillips did for the team so far this year is begin by signing in Mid-February a 4-year contract that is probably less than market-value.


Then he plays Gold Glove defense while not committing an error since Jerry Hairston, Sr. was playing baseball, or so it seems. He's gotten to a 100 balls (and made the plays) that Hairston, Jr would only be able to stand while watching them go by him. Then Phillips shows up every day, every inning. Brandon Phillips is the ballast of the vessel that is the Cincinnati REDS, the MVP, the Quiet Man, he leads by example. Yet, the REDS' own website slaps him in the face by suggesting that Hairston is the 1st Half MVP.

C'mon, REDS! Give the recognition to the guy who does his job the way everyone should.

Now the article is written by a guy, Marc Sheldon, who gets paid by mlb.com, but that's no excuse for allowing the article to be written and then not doing something about to correct it. Almost every team's website is run by Sportsline.com, but the content is still the responsibility of the club.

Phillips isn't going to say anything because he's not that kind of a guy, but it hurts him no matter what. Everyone wants to be appreciated for what they do.

Hairston? MVP? Give me a break.

It's Brandon Phillips without question.

Since I brought up Mark Bradley's not recognizing Phillips as the Team's 1st Half MVP, I owe it to him to post the nice article he wrote on Phillips for Friday:

First, though, I'd like to mention that, as I said before, Phillips won't complain about it, but it does hurt him personally, especially from his own media outlets/fans that they don't give him the recognition he deserves. This excerpt from the article demonstrates this feeling:

"I looked at how the voting [turned out]. I didn't get any votes at all. It's sad. Why weren't my fans here voting? If they did vote, thank you. I would love to represent Cincinnati in the All-Star Game."

Although Phillips was batting .338 (27-for-80) over his previous 20 games, he finished the first half in a 3-for-26 skid over the six games following the announcement of All-Star rosters.

Defensively, it could be another Gold Glove-caliber year for the 27-year-old. Phillips had a 78-game errorless streak end last week. He's committed three errors over his previous six games, including an eighth-inning throwing miscue on Damion Easley's infield hit in the eighth inning Thursday.

Phillips still has only four errors in 93 games overall this season, well behind Hudson's eight.

Phillips hadn't committed an error in 78 games until the names of the All-Stars were released. Don't criticize him for being human. It hurts to not be appreciated. I'd love for more REDS fans to recognize what he does for the club. Maybe when Junior and Dunn leave he will, but probably not.


Here's the whole article from Mark Bradley:

CINCINNATI -- Since second baseman Brandon Phillips joined the Reds in 2006, getting overlooked for honors has become an annual tradition.
A strong defensive season that went with 30 homers and 30 stolen bases last year earned him neither a Silver Slugger or a Gold Glove. He's never appeared close to being invited to the All-Star Game. This year's Midsummer Classic was the latest snub.

"I'm not going to tell you how I really feel about it," Phillips said.

Despite having worthy numbers, Phillips was in Cincinnati while the game was played at Yankee Stadium on Tuesday. He didn't even rank in the top eight of the fan vote while players with lesser numbers -- Rickie Weeks, Kaz Matsui and Luis Castillo -- ranked far ahead in ballot totals. Deserving second basemen Chase Utley and Dan Uggla represented the National League.

Phillips entered Friday batting .279 with 15 home runs and 58 RBIs. The team leader with hits (105), his 19 steals make another 30-30 season a possibility. If there's a chip on his shoulder about being passed over for recognition, he's not displaying it openly.

"When I didn't win the Gold Glove last year, it hurt," said Phillips, who lost out to Arizona's Orlando Hudson. "Now if I get one, I get one. If not, I don't care. If I make the All-Star team, I don't care. For me to have been a starter, the fans had to vote. People only vote for the name they know or if you're team is in first place, you get more looks. That's how it is.

"I looked at how the voting [turned out]. I didn't get any votes at all. It's sad. Why weren't my fans here voting? If they did vote, thank you. I would love to represent Cincinnati in the All-Star Game."

Although Phillips was batting .338 (27-for-80) over his previous 20 games, he finished the first half in a 3-for-26 skid over the six games following the announcement of All-Star rosters.

Defensively, it could be another Gold Glove-caliber year for the 27-year-old. Phillips had a 78-game errorless streak end last week. He's committed three errors over his previous six games, including an eighth-inning throwing miscue on Damion Easley's infield hit in the eighth inning Thursday.

Phillips still has only four errors in 93 games overall this season, well behind Hudson's eight.

"The type of player I am, I get to balls most second baseman don't get to," Phillips said. "I'm going to make errors. A majority of my errors are going to be on plays a majority of people don't get to. That's how it is. The routine plays, I'm going to make those plays."

Phillips seems to be already bracing for the next snub at season's end.

"I work my butt off to be one of the best second baseman, defensively, in this game," said Phillips. "But O-Dog is. He's got Gold Gloves to show it. I'd rather make it to the playoffs than to the All-Star Game or win a Gold Glove. Then I'd have other guys to share it with instead of worrying about myself."

Blue
07-19-2008, 01:55 AM
Phillips is good, but there's a reason he didn't get a lot of votes for the All-Star game: he plays in the same league as Chase Utley. Chase is clearly the best 2B in the NL. He's got a .954 OPS (.150 higher than Phillips) and also plays some very nice defense.

Phillips is the second best (Hudson is close). There's no shame in that. He's still really good.

This is/was not an attempt to threadjack. Just pointing out that there is a reason Phillips didn't get a lot of votes. The proper choice was obvious.

levydl
07-19-2008, 11:26 AM
Phillips is good, but there's a reason he didn't get a lot of votes for the All-Star game: he plays in the same league as Chase Utley. Chase is clearly the best 2B in the NL. He's got a .954 OPS (.150 higher than Phillips) and also plays some very nice defense.

Phillips is the second best (Hudson is close). There's no shame in that. He's still really good.

This is/was not an attempt to threadjack. Just pointing out that there is a reason Phillips didn't get a lot of votes. The proper choice was obvious.

True, Utley's had a better year at the plate. But that doesn't account for Phillips not being in the top 8 in the voting.

Kingspoint
07-19-2008, 05:13 PM
Phillips is good, but there's a reason he didn't get a lot of votes for the All-Star game: he plays in the same league as Chase Utley. Chase is clearly the best 2B in the NL. He's got a .954 OPS (.150 higher than Phillips) and also plays some very nice defense.

Phillips is the second best (Hudson is close). There's no shame in that. He's still really good.

This is/was not an attempt to threadjack. Just pointing out that there is a reason Phillips didn't get a lot of votes. The proper choice was obvious.


No one will ever argue that. It's not about that at all.