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BuckeyeRedleg
07-16-2008, 03:34 PM
Just a little bored today....


Of the 67 players named to last night's All-Star game, 49 were drafted and 15 were undrafted but signed out of Latin America. Each year from 1990 (Chipper Jones) all the way through 2006 (Evan Longoria and Tim Lincecum), had at least one draftee accounted for in the All-Star game. 1999, 2000, and 2001 provided the bulk of the rosters with 19 during that 3-year span (with 2000 leading the way with seven). Now here's a bombshell. None of the players that played in the 2008 All-Star game were drafted or signed originally by the Cincinnati Reds. Surprised? Yeah, me neither. The Reds were one of five organizations with that honor.

The teams that drafted the most players on both All-Star game rosters are:

-Boston and Milwaukee with 4.

-Houston, St. Louis, San Francisco, Arizona, and Washington/Montreal are next with 3.

-Tampa Bay, Toronto, Minnesota, Texas, Seattle, Atlanta, Florida, Colorado, and the New York Mets have 2.

-Yankees, Cubs, White Sox, Angels, Dodgers, Oakland, Cleveland, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh had 1.

-Shut out are: Baltimore, Detroit, Kansas City, San Diego, and Cincinnati. Hmm.



Another important ingredient to building an organization's farm system is through Latin America. 15 of the 67 players that made the All-Star game were signed out of Latin America. Again, the Reds strike out with zero All Star's accounted for. The New York Yankees make up for only having one draftee make the game (Derek Jeter) by having originally signed four of the 15 Latin American players (Rivera, Guzman, Soriano, and Navarro), while the Angels (F. Rodriguez, Santana) and the Cubs (Zambrano, Marmol) signed two each.

Seattle gets credit for two others in this game with the signing of Ichiro (Japanese free agent) and undrafted George Sherrill. The Cubs add (Japanese free agent) Fukedome.

Overall, when adding up drafted/undrafted players AND Latin American/Japanese signings the Yankees, Red Sox, and Seattle lead the way, accounting for 15 players in the All-Star game (five players each). Milwaukee, Houston, and the Cubs account for 12 (4 each). The Angels, Texas, St. Louis, Arizona, Montreal/Washington, and San Francisco account for 18 (3 each). So 45 of the 67 players in the All-Star game came from 12 organizations and guess what? Those 12 organizations have accounted for nine of the last 12 World Series Titles.

Again, Baltimore, Detroit, Kansas City, San Diego, and Cincinnati were completely shut out. Of those five, Baltimore, Kansas City, San Diego, and Cincinnati quite possibly could be considered four of the worst five or six baseball organizations in the past 30 years.

Breathe easy, folks. The Reds weren't shutout of the All-Star game last year, thanks to that 1989 draft and Trevor Hoffman. Ouch.




DRAFTED PLAYERS (BY YEAR) IN THE 2008 ALL-STAR GAME (49)
*year, player, team, with round and overall selection

1990
-Chipper Jones (ATL) - 1/1

1991
-Manny Ramirez (CLE) - 1/13

1992
-Derek Jeter (NYY) - 1/6

1993
-Alex Rodriguez (SEA) - 1/1
-Billy Wagner (HOU) - 1/12

1994
-Jason Varitek (SEA) - 1/14

1995
-Roy Halladay (TOR) - 1/17
-Ryan Dempster (TEX) - 3/66
-Joe Nathan (SF) - 6/159

1996
-Milton Bradley (MTL/WAS) - 2/40
-Joe Crede (CHIW) - 5/137
-Justin Duchscherer (BOS) - 8/241

1997
-Lance Berkman (HOU) - 1/16
-Aaron Cook (COL) - 2/70
-Michael Young (TOR) - 5/149

1998
-JD Drew (STL) - 1/5
-Brad Lidge (HOU) - 1/17
-Matt Holliday (COL) - 7/210

1999
-Josh Hamilton (TB) - 1/1
-Josh Beckett (FLA) - 1/2
-Ben Sheets (MIL) - 1/10
-Ryan Ludwick (OAK) - 2/60
-Justin Morneau (MIN) - 3/89
-Albert Pujols (STL) - 13/402

2000
-Adrian Gonzalez (FLA) - 1/1
-Chase Utley (PHI) - 1/15
-Grady Sizemore (MTL/WAS) - 3-75
-Cliff Lee (MTL/WAS) - 4/104
-Brandon Webb (ARI) - 8/249
-Corey Hart (MIL) - 11/321
-Nate McLouth (PIT) - 25/749

2001
-Joe Mauer (MIN) - 1/1
-David Wright (NYM) - 1/38
-Dan Haren (STL) - 2/72
-Kevin Youkilis (BOS) - 8/243
-Geovany Soto (CHIC) - 11/318
-Dan Uggla (ARI) - 11/338

2002
-Joe Saunders (ANA) - 1/12
-Scott Kazmir (NYM) - 1/15
-Brian McCann (ATL) - 2/64
-Russell Martin (LAD) - 17/511

2003
-Carlos Quentin (ARI) - 1/29
-Jon Papelbon (BOS) - 4/114
-Ian Kinsler (TEX) - 17/496
-Brian Wilson (SF) - 24/723

2004
-Dustin Pedroia (BOS) - 2/64

2005
-Ryan Braun (MIL) - 1/4

2006
-Evan Longoria (TB) - 1/3
-Tim Lincecum (SF) - 1/10
----------------------------------------------


LATIN AMERICA UNDRAFTED (BY YEAR) FREE AGENTS (15)

-Mariano Rivera (NYY) - 1990
-David Ortiz (SEA) - 1992
-Carlos Guillen (HOU) - 1992
-Miguel Tejada (OAK) - 1993
-Aramis Ramirez (PIT) - 1994
-Christian Guzman (NYY) - 1994
-Carlos Zambrano (CHIC) - 1997
-Francisco Rodriguez (ANA) - 1998
-Alfonso Soriano (NYY) - 1998
-Carlos Marmol (CHIC) - 1999
-Ervin Santana (ANA) - 2000
-Dioner Navarro (NYY) - 2000
-Hanley Ramirez (BOS) - 2000
-Joakim Soria (LAD) - 2001
-Edinson Volquez (TEX) - 2001

-------------------------------------

JAPANESE FREE AGENTS (2)

-Ichiro Suzuki (SEA) - 2000
-Kosuke Fukedome (CHI) - 2008
-------------------------------------

UNDRAFTED (1)

George Sherrill (SEA) - 2003

Homer Bailey
07-16-2008, 05:22 PM
That's pretty interesting. Hopefully we see that drafting trend change with the likes of Bruce and Votto, along with the signing of Cueto.

RedsManRick
07-16-2008, 06:59 PM
Very interesting stuff. Thanks Buckeye!

Nugget
07-16-2008, 09:11 PM
I think its a stretch to say the REDS have been one of the worst six MLB teams in the past 30 years. Last 10- 15 maybe but last 30 definitely not.

UKFlounder
07-16-2008, 09:46 PM
Nice research

BuckeyeRedleg
07-16-2008, 11:38 PM
I think its a stretch to say the REDS have been one of the worst six MLB teams in the past 30 years. Last 10- 15 maybe but last 30 definitely not.

In the last 32 seasons (since the end of the BRM era -1976) the Reds have made the playoffs three times.

1. Swept by the Pirates in the 1979 NLCS.

2. World Champions in 1990.

3. Swept by the Braves in the 1995 NLCS.

In that period they have been outscored by 331 runs and have a record of 2459 and 2440 (+19 games) for an average record of 81.5 and 80.5. Again, being outscored by 331 runs they are probably lucky to be even very slightly above .500. .500 (or slightly below) is probably right.

Also, there are not many teams that have had only 3 playoff appearances within that span. And their WS Championship? Their WS might carry a little weight, but in that span (32 years) 19 different teams have won a WS. So, if anything, the WS Championship puts the Reds above 11 different franchises. And a few of those 11 were not even in existence in 1977.

I'm sure there are not more than 5-6 teams that have as few as three playoff appearances in that 32 year span, especially with the addition of another division per league and the Wild Card. So eight teams make the playoffs every year now.

I don't think it's that big of a stretch to say they are in the bottom six or seven. I would put them in the same category as:

-Baltimore
-Kansas City
-San Diego
-Colorado
-Pittsburgh
-Milwaukee

How they are ranked from there is anyone's guess. Personally, I would put the Reds at the top of the list with those teams. Unfortunately it looks like Milwaukee and Detroit are well on their way to move out of this group and Colorado (an expansion team) was just in the WS last year and the Reds haven't been to a WS since Colorado came into existence.

macro
07-17-2008, 10:26 AM
If we judge by post-season appearances, the Reds have been one of the worst franchises in baseball since 1980. At the end of this season, 29 seasons will have been played during this time frame.

Most non-playoff seasons played since 1980:


Montreal-Wash 26
Cincinnati 25
Milwaukee 25
Detroit 24
Baltimore 24
Texas 24
Pittsburgh 24
Chicago (A) 23
Kansas City 23
Seattle 23


Longest current post season droughts:


Montreal-Wash 25
Milwaukee 24
Kansas City 21
Pittsburgh 14
Toronto 13
Cincinnati 12
Baltimore 10
Tampa Bay 10
Texas 8
Seattle 6
Florida 4
San Francisco 4
Chicago (A) 2
Atlanta 2
Houston 2
Detroit 1
New York (N) 1
Oakland 1
Minnesota 1
Los Angeles (N) 1
San Diego 1
St Louis 1


Most non-LCS seasons played since 1980:


Texas 27
Milwaukee 26
Montreal-Wash 26
Cincinnati 25
San Diego 25
Detroit 24
Chicago (A) 24
Baltimore 24
Kansas City 24
Minnesota 24
Seattle 24
Chicago (N) 24
Philadelphia 24
Pittsburgh 24
San Francisco 24


Longest current LCS droughts:


Texas 39
Montreal-Wash 25
Milwaukee 24
Kansas City 21
Los Angeles (N) 18
Pittsburgh 14
Toronto 13
Philadelphia 13
Cincinnati 12
Baltimore 10
Tampa Bay 10
San Diego 9
Seattle 6
Atlanta 6
Minnesota 5
San Francisco 5
Chicago (N) 4
Florida 4
New York (A) 3
Chicago (A) 2
Los Angeles (A) 2
Houston 2
Detroit 1
Oakland 1
New York (N) 1
St Louis 1

BuckeyeRedleg
07-17-2008, 10:53 AM
I forgot to include Montreal/Washington in my worst organizations in the last 30 years list.

Based on Macro's lists, I'd have to rank the Reds as the 6th worst organization over the last 30 or so years.

1. Montreal/Washington
2. Texas
3. Milwaukee
4. Kansas City
5. Pittsburgh
6. Cincinnati
7. Baltimore
8. San Diego
9. Seattle

SunDeck
07-17-2008, 12:04 PM
This is the most depressing thread ever. At least I have a clear memory of the seventies.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-17-2008, 12:41 PM
This is the most depressing thread ever. At least I have a clear memory of the seventies.


Lucky you.

I was still in diapers. Just missed it.

macro
07-17-2008, 01:11 PM
Speaking of the 70s, it's "interesting" (for lack of a better word) to see Cincinnati, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and Kansas City on those lists. They were four of the most successful franchises of that decade, especially Cincinnati, Baltimore, and Pittsburgh.

After combining for 17 postseason appearances in the 1970s, the Reds, Orioles, and Pirates combined for only one (yes, that's right, one) postseason appearance in the 1980s (Baltimore - 1983). The 1990s weren't a lot better, as the three franchises combined for seven postseason appearances and none since.

So, the three franchises combined for 17 postseason appearances in the ten years of the 1970s and eight in the 29 seasons since (counting this season).

WebScorpion
07-17-2008, 03:44 PM
This is the most depressing thread ever. At least I have a clear memory of the seventies.
I don't know about the most depressing thread EVER, but it is pretty depressing. But how could they be that bad if their overall record is above .500? Something just doesn't add up... http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/merv/thinking.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

macro
07-17-2008, 04:37 PM
But how could they be that bad if their overall record is above .500? Something just doesn't add up... http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/merv/thinking.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

Too many "close but no cigar" seasons, where the records were good but the team finished in second place (1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1992). Or, consider 1981 and 1994, where the Reds had the best record in the division but strikes left them with no playoffs. That's seven seasons that could have easily resulted in postseason appearances.

It would seem that it's about time for the Reds to assemble one of the best teams in MLB and have the playoff scene screwed up by a players strike and an incompetent commissioner. Aren't we overdue on that?