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RedFanAlways1966
07-17-2008, 11:36 PM
Good lord... 5th blown save for Cordero. 19-for-24 (79.2%).

Last year, Weathers was 33-for-39 (84.6%).

flyer85
07-17-2008, 11:37 PM
2nd half begins ... Dusty still in charge

jesusfan
07-17-2008, 11:37 PM
we need a dp...

Homer Bailey
07-17-2008, 11:37 PM
When was the last time a Reds right hander hit one out to right field?

Falls City Beer
07-17-2008, 11:37 PM
2nd half begins ... Dusty still in charge

How is this Dusty's fault?

jesusfan
07-17-2008, 11:38 PM
I understand moaning about Dusty on some occasions, but it's crazy to gripe about him every single time something bad happens...

jesusfan
07-17-2008, 11:38 PM
my goodness... Dusty baker just gave up another single...

jesusfan
07-17-2008, 11:38 PM
We are actually going to lose this game... I don't believe it...

LvJ
07-17-2008, 11:39 PM
Hey, at least Dunn is still in the ga.. oh.

CTA513
07-17-2008, 11:39 PM
Not only has Cordero blown the lead it looks like he might give the Mets the lead.

OnBaseMachine
07-17-2008, 11:40 PM
I liked the Cordero signing (and still do) but he's been disappointing so far this season.

Falls City Beer
07-17-2008, 11:40 PM
Hey, at least Dunn is still in the ga.. oh.

Defense helps. When you can keep the ball in the park. Reds pitching isn't adept at that.

Hoosier Red
07-17-2008, 11:40 PM
Hey, at least Dunn is still in the ga.. oh.

I have a feeling that may not matter

flyer85
07-17-2008, 11:40 PM
How is this Dusty's fault?reds now have to play with Patterson ... big advantage NY

OnBaseMachine
07-17-2008, 11:40 PM
Defense helps. When you can keep the ball in the park. Reds pitching isn't adept at that.

So move Bruce to RF and keep Dunn in the game.

jesusfan
07-17-2008, 11:40 PM
c'mon.. need a k!

jesusfan
07-17-2008, 11:41 PM
are u kidding me... 9-8 Mets...

Tom Servo
07-17-2008, 11:41 PM
Well, this one's on CoCo.

dougdirt
07-17-2008, 11:42 PM
this is fun....

TeamBoone
07-17-2008, 11:42 PM
Cordero is an experience, the king of drama. I've always thought he is overrated and never feel comfortable when he comes in.

redsfaninbsg
07-17-2008, 11:42 PM
I understand the guy is the closer but at what point do you take him out of the game?

OnBaseMachine
07-17-2008, 11:42 PM
Well, it's time for Walt to start selling. This team isn't going anywhere.

CTA513
07-17-2008, 11:42 PM
How many pitches does Cordero have to throw before he gets pulled?

SMcGavin
07-17-2008, 11:43 PM
This sucks.

TeamBoone
07-17-2008, 11:43 PM
This just stinks!!!!! And I'm angry!

LvJ
07-17-2008, 11:43 PM
Defense helps. When you can keep the ball in the park. Reds pitching isn't adept at that. Sure, defense helps, and it is not at all Dusty's fault that Cordero is sucking, but I never like taking out your best offensive player with a 2 run lead, but who could have predicted this? Ah well. Bunt for a single Corey!

Falls City Beer
07-17-2008, 11:43 PM
Well, this one's on CoCo.

Zito's deal is going to look like the purchase of a pennywhistle compared to the Cordero's deal by the time it's over.

RedFanAlways1966
07-17-2008, 11:43 PM
Man, that was hard to watch. Bad night for Cordero. Bad night for us.

LvJ
07-17-2008, 11:43 PM
Bring back Danny Graves!

RedsManRick
07-17-2008, 11:43 PM
Yikes. Not a way to start the 2nd half of the season. That was a great pitch that Delgado hit.

CrackerJack
07-17-2008, 11:43 PM
What a joke Cordero, that was freakin awful.

VR
07-17-2008, 11:43 PM
death by Tatis. wow.

redsfaninbsg
07-17-2008, 11:43 PM
Laugh is really all you can do. 4 runs one out and two men on, terrible night for coco.

Falls City Beer
07-17-2008, 11:43 PM
Well, it's time for Walt to start selling. This team isn't going anywhere.

They could. They need a bullpen and rotation. What else is new?

TeamBoone
07-17-2008, 11:44 PM
Well, it's time for Walt to start selling. This team isn't going anywhere.

Team? The "team" has battled tonight. As far as I'm concerned, this one is on Cordero... he's supposed to be the "saving" grace, isn't he?

flyer85
07-17-2008, 11:44 PM
So move Bruce to RF and keep Dunn in the game.
just leave Patterson on the bench ... he is worthless especially against LHPs

jesusfan
07-17-2008, 11:44 PM
Why do the reds always do this to me... but yet I still have hope... It's unreal what sports do to a person.... lol

flyer85
07-17-2008, 11:44 PM
Cordero gone ... now the double switch is meaningless and just looks dumb

SirFelixCat
07-17-2008, 11:45 PM
Twice the Reds clutched defeat from the jaws of victory. Not a good way to come out of the break. *sigh*

Falls City Beer
07-17-2008, 11:45 PM
That would earn Cordero a demotion if I were manager. No way would he get the ball in the ninth till spring of next season.

TeamBoone
07-17-2008, 11:46 PM
Cordero gone ... now the double switch is meaningless and just looks dumb

It's meaningless most of the time, yet it continues.

Tony Cloninger
07-17-2008, 11:47 PM
Freaking Dusty....taking Dunn out...shook up Cordero and made him pitch as bad as Dale Murray circa 1977. :rolleyes:

Falls City Beer
07-17-2008, 11:47 PM
Cordero gone ... now the double switch is meaningless and just looks dumb

It won't matter anyway--the Reds' pitching has made the idea of an offensive comeback moot. The Reds could trot out the AL All-Star lineup in the bottom of the inning; they ain't coming back from the deficit created by the pitching.

It's always the pitching with this team; it's never not been the pitching.

redsfaninbsg
07-17-2008, 11:47 PM
Whats really sad about this entire situation is the fact that good bullpen work would've allowed the Reds to defeat both CC and Johan in back to back games.

flyer85
07-17-2008, 11:48 PM
It's meaningless most of the time, yet it continues.agreed ... it makes sense in a tie game where you may want to use a pitcher two innings. switching out your most productive offensive player for a zero is asking for it.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-17-2008, 11:49 PM
Anyone in contention need an average and overpaid closer?

I'd shop him and his hideous contract before I worry about Dunn, Arroyo, etc.

Tony Cloninger
07-17-2008, 11:49 PM
Asking for what....I mean what are the odds thaT CORDERO WAS GOING TO DO THIS?

LvJ
07-17-2008, 11:49 PM
6 Hits, 4 ER, 1 BB http://smiliesftw.com/x/goyou.gif

BuckeyeRedleg
07-17-2008, 11:51 PM
Asking for what....I mean what are the odds thaT CORDERO WAS GOING TO DO THIS?

Odds?

1 in 4.

CTA513
07-17-2008, 11:51 PM
Bray gets the final two outs without allowing anymore runs to score.

Falls City Beer
07-17-2008, 11:51 PM
Anyone in contention need an average and overpaid closer?

I'd shop him and his hideous contract before I worry about Dunn, Arroyo, etc.

God yes. Milton is NOT in your rearview mirror.

redsfaninbsg
07-17-2008, 11:51 PM
Asking for what....I mean what are the odds thaT CORDERO WAS GOING TO DO THIS?

By his save % I'd say 1 in 5 or so.

RedFanAlways1966
07-17-2008, 11:52 PM
Last time the REDS won a game when allowing 10 or more runs....

July 4, 2005 @ SF Giants.
* 11-10 final score.
>> 502 games ago.

Falls City Beer
07-17-2008, 11:53 PM
There are teams that pick up the pieces and contend (Mets); then there are teams that spend $50 million on a closer nearing his mid-30s.

Winners are easily discernible.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-17-2008, 11:54 PM
Good lord... 5th blown save for Cordero. 19-for-24 (79.2%).

Last year, Weathers was 33-for-39 (84.6%).

This is really all that needs to be said in regards to paying an average closer 50 million dollars to pitch on a bad team.

*BaseClogger*
07-17-2008, 11:54 PM
Anyone in contention need an average and overpaid closer?

I'd shop him and his hideous contract before I worry about Dunn, Arroyo, etc.

Jared Burton could do a better job... :D

TeamBoone
07-17-2008, 11:55 PM
Asking for what....I mean what are the odds thaT CORDERO WAS GOING TO DO THIS?

Are you kidding me? He's been terrible this year.

Even when he's eked out a save, he's walked guys and given up HRs/hits to beat the band.

CTA513
07-17-2008, 11:55 PM
Wagner did a nice job.

Tony Cloninger
07-17-2008, 11:55 PM
Whatever the odds....coming out and posting after Cordero blows the save and saying it's on Baker for doing a meaningless double switch....is bordering on real dementia.

redsfaninbsg
07-17-2008, 11:55 PM
Wheres football season when you need it, tonight is just one of those games that crush you. You have Johan beat, blow it and fall back to 5 games under .500. Get em next year boys (year 14 in the re-building process).

Falls City Beer
07-17-2008, 11:55 PM
Jared Burton could do a better job... :D

True.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-17-2008, 11:56 PM
There are teams that pick up the pieces and contend (Mets); then there are teams that spend $50 million on a closer nearing his mid-30s.

Winners are easily discernible.

And waste 11 million on a "big name" manager.

Clueless organization with a massive inferiority complex.

Tony Cloninger
07-17-2008, 11:56 PM
Again....what does that have to do with a double switch of Dunn....it's like grasping at straws...just to get the usual baker bashing in.

Falls City Beer
07-17-2008, 11:57 PM
Whatever the odds....coming out and posting after Cordero blows the save and saying it's on Baker for doing a meaningless double switch....is bordering on real dementia.

I agree. But it's gotten to the point where that response to game action is basically a tic on the part of many fans on this board. I really don't think they even think about it--they just type it.

Falls City Beer
07-17-2008, 11:58 PM
And waste 11 million on a "big name" manager.

Clueless organization with a massive inferiority complex.

At least Dusty isn't clearly hurting this team, like the 50 million dollar closer.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-17-2008, 11:59 PM
Whatever the odds....coming out and posting after Cordero blows the save and saying it's on Baker for doing a meaningless double switch....is bordering on real dementia.

Who said it was Baker's fault?

I don't think anyone's blaming him for the loss. Just questioning his double switches which have back-fired all year.

PuffyPig
07-17-2008, 11:59 PM
That would earn Cordero a demotion if I were manager. No way would he get the ball in the ninth till spring of next season.


It's one game. It happens. Especially in a random sport like baseball.

*BaseClogger*
07-18-2008, 12:02 AM
There are teams that pick up the pieces and contend (Mets); then there are teams that spend $50 million on a closer nearing his mid-30s.

Winners are easily discernible.

Nah... the Mets give a closer that's in his mid-30s $43 million... (Billy Wagner)

*BaseClogger*
07-18-2008, 12:03 AM
At least Dusty isn't clearly hurting this team, like the 50 million dollar closer.

It's clear to me... Anybody else?

Falls City Beer
07-18-2008, 12:03 AM
Nah... the Mets give a closer that's in his mid-30s $43 million... (Billy Wagner)

Billy's effective. There's the rub.

PuffyPig
07-18-2008, 12:04 AM
Odds?

1 in 4.

This is only the second game all year the Reds have lost when leading after 7 innings.

*BaseClogger*
07-18-2008, 12:05 AM
Billy's effective. There's the rub.

They are both pretty good. Cordero hasn't been nearly as effective this season as last because of the walks... (can't believe I'm defending Cordero)

Falls City Beer
07-18-2008, 12:05 AM
This is only the second game all year the Reds have lost when leading after 7 innings.

That statistic is pointless. Even the bottom of the barrel teams preserve leads across two-inning spans WAY more often than they don't.

This shouldn't have happened. A closer ends the ballgame. A failure blows it.

PuffyPig
07-18-2008, 12:06 AM
Billy's effective. There's the rub.

The Rub is that Wagner has blown more saves this year than Cordero......

BuckeyeRedleg
07-18-2008, 12:06 AM
This is only the second game all year the Reds have lost when leading after 7 innings.

My odds were wrong.

1 in 5.

I thought the question was what the odds were that Cordero would blow it.

1 in 5.

Falls City Beer
07-18-2008, 12:07 AM
They are both pretty good. Cordero hasn't been nearly as effective this season as last because of the walks... (can't believe I'm defending Cordero)

Cordero has been nowhere near Wagner's class over the course of their careers. Cordero is not someone you throw Billy Wagner-type money at.

PuffyPig
07-18-2008, 12:08 AM
That statistic is pointless. Even the bottom of the barrel teams preserve leads across two-inning spans WAY more often than they don't.

This shouldn't have happened. A closer ends the ballgame. A failure blows it.

The Reds have closed out about 95% of those games into wins. No bullpen is perfect.

That's pointless?

THat's about a meaningful of a stat you can have to show if the back end of your bullpen is doing it's job.

Falls City Beer
07-18-2008, 12:09 AM
The Reds have closed out about 95% of those games into wins. No bullpen is perfect.

That's pointless?

THat's about a meaningful of a stat you can have to show if the back end of your bullpen is doing it's job.

It also says your offense is doing its job. It's meaningless.

*BaseClogger*
07-18-2008, 12:10 AM
Cordero has been nowhere near Wagner's class over the course of their careers. Cordero is not someone you throw Billy Wagner-type money at.

It's been pretty close. I won't throw stats out there :), but considering Cordero was younger, had less injury concerns, and his payday came a couple years later than Wagner, he was due for a contract about the same size as Wagner...

Kc61
07-18-2008, 12:11 AM
I won't blame Cordero or Baker or Griffey or anyone tonight. I'm just worn out by this team. They just aren't a winning outfit and it's getting harder to follow them.

Big Klu
07-18-2008, 12:14 AM
Who said it was Baker's fault?

I don't think anyone's blaming him for the loss. Just questioning his double switches which have back-fired all year.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but how did this double-switch backfire?

Big Klu
07-18-2008, 12:15 AM
Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds All-Time Home Run Leaders
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
4. Adam Dunn - 265
5. Ted Kluszewski - 251
6. George Foster - 244
7. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 207
8. Eric Davis - 203
9. Barry Larkin - 198
10. Vada Pinson - 186
11. Wally Post - 172
12. Gus Bell - 160
13. Joe Morgan - 152
13. Pete Rose - 152
15. Lee May - 147
16. Dan Driessen - 133
17. Reggie Sanders - 125
18. Ernie Lombardi - 120
19. Sean Casey - 118
20. Frank McCormick - 110
21. Dave Parker - 107
22. Chris Sabo - 104
23. Dave Concepcion - 101
24. Gordy Coleman - 98
25. Paul O'Neill - 96

WVRedsFan
07-18-2008, 12:15 AM
Cordero has been nowhere near Wagner's class over the course of their careers. Cordero is not someone you throw Billy Wagner-type money at.

Bet the Reds did. And like TB, I worry every time he comes in. He's rarely been automatic and his past shows that has been the case his whole career. He's living off a good couple of years (2004 and 2007). Otherwise, he's been pretty average--not worth $46 million for sure. What's alarming is his walk rate. He walked 18 in 63 innings last year and has already walked 23 in 43 innings this year.

If want to talk about bad contracts, this is where we start.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-18-2008, 12:15 AM
The Rub is that Wagner has blown more saves this year than Cordero......

Wagner has had more opportunities.

Wagner 23/29
Cordero 19/24

Wagner:

40 IP
49 K
9 BB
.93 WHIP

Cordero

43.1 IP
47 K
23 BB
1.38 WHIP

Personally, I wouldn't waste $50 million on either of them, but at least the Mets have more money to blow and they are contenders, meaning he'll get a whole boatload of save opportunities, unlike the Reds.

Wagner has been more effective this year, regardless.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-18-2008, 12:16 AM
I'm not trying to be confrontational, but how did this double-switch backfire?

I never said it did.

Falls City Beer
07-18-2008, 12:17 AM
It's been pretty close. I won't throw stats out there :), but considering Cordero was younger, had less injury concerns, and his payday came a couple years later than Wagner, he was due for a contract about the same size as Wagner...

It's been NOWHERE near close.

3.9:1 K/BB ratio for Wagner

2.3:1 for Cordero

They aren't even in the same universe when you look at each pitcher's career.

WVRedsFan
07-18-2008, 12:19 AM
Billy's effective. There's the rub.

Very effective. Wagner hasn't had more than 6 blown saves in a season since 2001 (and that's this year). His lifetime ERA is 2.40 where Codero's is 3.21. Wagner has the same season over and over while Codero is up and down. This obviously is going to be a down season.

*BaseClogger*
07-18-2008, 12:26 AM
It's been NOWHERE near close.

3.9:1 K/BB ratio for Wagner

2.3:1 for Cordero

They aren't even in the same universe when you look at each pitcher's career.

Just last year Cordero was better. We have different definitions of close... let's leave it at that....

WVRedsFan
07-18-2008, 12:28 AM
You know what blew my mind? Letting the young pitcher, who obviously had lost his temper at the plate umpire, allow enough runs to negate a pretty good rally by the Reds early on. Then the fielding, which is abysmal. Phillips swinging at the first pitch after Griffey doubled in the 8th and popping up. Votto's ineptness at fielding low throws at first base. Phillips (once again) making a great stop and then making an unwise throw to first. It wasn't Dusty. Two games in a row we had wins over two of the top pitchers in the league if the bullpen does it's job. And they didn't.

Stormy
07-18-2008, 12:33 AM
At least Dusty isn't clearly hurting this team, like the 50 million dollar closer.

The guy had surrendered 2ER in his previous 16 outings combined, dating back to June 7th... yea, he's what's destroying us. He sucked tonight, but he's just about the least of our worries.

Falls City Beer
07-18-2008, 12:36 AM
The guy had surrendered 2ER in his previous 15 outings combined, dating back to June 7th... yea, he's what's destroying us.

His control has been pitiful all season. With good control, tonight likely doesn't happen. He's escaped some, but he is playing with fire constantly. No reason to believe that many more nights like this aren't on the menu in the subsequent three years of his contract.

Falls City Beer
07-18-2008, 12:37 AM
but he's just about the least of our worries.

Not with that prohibitive contract he's not. I'd say he's the big ole elephant in the room.

I'm praying Walt can move him in the offseason.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-18-2008, 12:37 AM
The guy had surrendered 2ER in his previous 16 outings combined, dating back to June 7th... yea, he's what's destroying us. He sucked tonight, but he's just about the least of our worries.

Stormy, I agree, but a night like tonight just highlights the acquisition and how crazy it was to spend $50 million on a 33-year old (average) closer, especially when the team is years away from competing.

Falls City Beer
07-18-2008, 12:40 AM
From a financial standpoint, the Reds have to get perfection from Cordero for this deal to even approach its real worth to the team. So they've lost the deal from the get-go.

Stormy
07-18-2008, 12:46 AM
Stormy, I agree, but a night like tonight just highlights the acquisition and how crazy it was to spend $50 million on a 33-year old (average) closer, especially when the team is years away from competing.

Agreed. I thought we were talking in the context of the team's recent misadventures, not the longhaul. The signing only made sense if 2008 was the Reds' year, and even then was a major stretch given the price tag. That's the rub for me: Wayne spent much of his tenure, whether by illogical mandate from above or by his own misguided judgment, vacillating between the extremes of rebuilding and winning now. Cordero is as FCB said, the big elephant remaining in the room, as the result of trying to serve two masters.

It will be interesting to see if he can be moved by Walt, or if they are resigned to making him a stalwart of this bullpen for the next few years. As to the initial points, I blame him for precious few of the Reds numerous meltdowns this year.

WVRedsFan
07-18-2008, 12:49 AM
Stormy, I agree, but a night like tonight just highlights the acquisition and how crazy it was to spend $50 million on a 33-year old (average) closer, especially when the team is years away from competing.

Emotions. Of course, Stormy's right. In the 9.1 innings previous to tonight, Codero had given up on 7 hits and 1 unearned run, walking 4 and striking out 8, but...

He allowed the sacrifice fly on Sunday that won the game and came in tonight and in the words of Marty threw batting practice. It's what we remember.

If you look at his career statistics, he's not worth $50 million. But like so many others on this team, his contract will keep him here for the duration.

Big Klu
07-18-2008, 12:50 AM
Cordero has a full no-trade clause for 2008 and '09.

Spring~Fields
07-18-2008, 12:51 AM
Agreed. I thought we were talking in the context of the team's recent misadventures, not the longhaul. The signing only made sense if 2008 was the Reds' year, and even then was a major stretch given the price tag. That's the rub for me: Wayne spent much of his tenure, whether by illogical mandate from above or by his own misguided judgment, vacillating between the extremes of rebuilding and winning now. Cordero is as FCB said, the big elephant remaining in the room, as the result of trying to serve two masters.
It will be interesting to see if he can be moved by Walt, or if they are resigned to making him a stalwart of this bullpen for the next few years. As to the initial points, I blame him for precious few of the Reds numerous meltdowns this year.

:clap:

Falls City Beer
07-18-2008, 12:52 AM
What is so idiotic is that I've been barely following the team the last three or four weeks, but I decided to plunk my arse down for tonight's game. Just seems cruel.

Stormy
07-18-2008, 12:52 AM
Cordero has a full no-trade clause for 2008 and '09.

Didn't realize that BK, thanks.

Falls City Beer
07-18-2008, 12:53 AM
Cordero has a full no-trade clause for 2008 and '09.

How in the hell did he get *that* thrown into the deal *on top* of all that cash? My lord, Wayne Krivsky is an idiot.

WVRedsFan
07-18-2008, 12:54 AM
Cordero has a full no-trade clause for 2008 and '09.

True. Another gem of a contract by Krivsky. Stanton, Cromier, Freel, Gonzalez, Narron and others. Cordero just might be the one who earns his money in the long run. The problem is, like those mentioned earlier, the contracts make it difficult to move them. We have a lot of guys on the team who obviously have contracts that make them impossible to move. That's OK if the players were held in high esteem by most of baseball, but this is not the case with these players.

Big Klu
07-18-2008, 12:55 AM
How in the hell did he get *that* thrown into the deal *on top* of all that cash? My lord, Wayne Krivsky is an idiot.

He also has a limited no-trade clause for 2010 and '11.

Stormy
07-18-2008, 12:57 AM
How in the hell did he get *that* thrown into the deal *on top* of all that cash? My lord, Wayne Krivsky is an idiot.

Yea, he was some sort of savant with the contracts. ;) I liked his ability to identify, and acquire good young talent, but he certainly countered that productivity with a bunch of missteps.

Spring~Fields
07-18-2008, 12:59 AM
He also has a limited no-trade clause for 2010 and '11.

Ah man, Walt needs to dangle the going to a potential ring team, to see if he will bite and waive that.

WVRedsFan
07-18-2008, 01:01 AM
Yea, he was some sort of savant with the contracts. ;) I liked his ability to identify, and acquire good young talent, but he certainly countered that productivity with a bunch of missteps.

He knew talent when he saw it, but like you say, those contracts negated anything positive he did. Oh, those contracts. I didn't know about the 2010 and 2011 limited no-trade clauses. Was that the difference in the deal Milwaukee was offering and what the Reds offered to get him? If so, it's no wonder the Reds took him from the Brewers.

WVRedsFan
07-18-2008, 01:03 AM
Ah man, Walt needs to dangle the going to a potential ring team, to see if he will bite and waive that. Why would that work? Everyone knows that in Cincinnati, there's no pressure to win. Life is easy with a player's manager and a bunch of regular guys. Why go to NY or Boston or LA where they expect championships? An outing like he had tonight would be all over the NY Post with them asking for his head. :)

Spring~Fields
07-18-2008, 01:11 AM
Why would that work? Everyone knows that in Cincinnati, there's no pressure to win. Life is easy with a player's manager and a bunch of regular guys. Why go to NY or Boston or LA where they expect championships? An outing like he had tonight would be all over the NY Post with them asking for his head. :)

I had to read that a few times, knocked me off the chair. :)

My mistake, I thought maybe the guy might want to escape.

I don't know who negoiated or wrote those contracts for Krisvky, but they are garbage, no denying that.

I just want Walt Jocketty to clear the deck of the long term contracts and large expenditures and start onward. I wish they were all gone now, so he could start now with one good brick at a time until he has built something we can appreciate.

letsgojunior
07-18-2008, 01:13 AM
He also has a limited no-trade clause for 2010 and '11.

And also for 2012, if the Reds were to exercise his option that year. Thankfully, the buyout is $1 M.

OnBaseMachine
07-18-2008, 01:27 AM
They could. They need a bullpen and rotation. What else is new?

Seriously? The rotation is going to be a strong point going forward. Many teams would kill to have a rotation of Edinson Volquez, Aaron Harang, Johnny Cueto, Bronson Arroyo, and a young kid like Bailey or Thompson.

Spring~Fields
07-18-2008, 01:35 AM
Seriously? The rotation is going to be a strong point going forward. Many teams would kill to have a rotation of Edinson Volquez, Aaron Harang, Johnny Cueto, Bronson Arroyo, and a young kid like Bailey or Thompson.

I can appreciate that, the Reds are improving, I just want to see them make the pitching even stronger yet. Solid depth.

NJReds
07-18-2008, 01:45 AM
Billy's effective. There's the rub.

Mets fans last Sept. disagree. He's choked quite a few big games. He was effective tonight, though.

WVRedsFan
07-18-2008, 01:46 AM
Seriously? The rotation is going to be a strong point going forward. Many teams would kill to have a rotation of Edinson Volquez, Aaron Harang, Johnny Cueto, Bronson Arroyo, and a young kid like Bailey or Thompson.

It sure is better than the last 9 years...or maybe more. But there are problems. Harang is iffy with the current revelation about his forearm. We have to hope it will heal. Volquez is young and good. Let's hope nothing happens there that might negate him (ala Jack Armstrong). Cueto has the potential to be good, but as we saw tonight, he doesn't handle adversity very well. He's also young so there is hope. Arroyo is really hard to figure out. I don't know what to think of him and neither does the baseball world either. Bailey and Thompson are question marks and they could blow up or blossom. It's a crap shoot.

Lots of questions and not many answers here. I think the baseball lords are watching us, but no one is willing to place a good bet on how this will work out.

edabbs44
07-18-2008, 08:48 AM
Stormy, I agree, but a night like tonight just highlights the acquisition and how crazy it was to spend $50 million on a 33-year old (average) closer, especially when the team is years away from competing.

It's post like these that make me feel all nostalgic. It was only a few short months ago where I was saying the same things but was being blasted all over the board for always being negative.

That being said, you couldn't be more right. Especially when you think that he is on the wrong side of the hill. His performance will not likely get materially better. And when the youngsters start hitting their strides (like in 2010), all we will hear is that they need a better bullpen, especially a better closer.

Wayne wasn't a good GM. His area of expertise is in talent evaluation. There is a difference and we are paying the price for it.