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TheBigLebowski
07-17-2008, 11:45 PM
Sucks. I have tried to defend him and the money we allocated to him but I cannot do it anymore. It was a horrible signing and he is an awful closer. If we can find an actual contender to take him off our hands I suggest we do it with expediency.

Oxilon
07-17-2008, 11:46 PM
Exaggerate much? Seems to me the fair-weathers all flock together around here...

HeatherC1212
07-17-2008, 11:47 PM
Are you kidding me?! He has his first HORRIBLE night of the whole season tonight and you're ready to throw him to the wolves for it. I shouldn't be surprised that the 'dump Cordero' thread is all ready on the board but I guess I am anyway. :thumbdown

I guess this is all Dusty's fault though because everything is his fault on this board even when he's not the one throwing bad pitches in the 9th inning. *is grumpy because of the game and the usual fan overreactions*

TheBigLebowski
07-17-2008, 11:48 PM
Exaggerate much? Seems to me the fair-weathers all flock together around here...

Please find another post in which I exhibited "fair weather" tendencies. Instead of ad hominem arguments, please debate the content of my post.

superred
07-17-2008, 11:49 PM
hes only had 2 blown saves that he hasnt had 2 pithch 3 straight days

TheBigLebowski
07-17-2008, 11:51 PM
Are you kidding me?! He has his first HORRIBLE night of the whole season tonight and you're ready to throw him to the wolves for it. I shouldn't be surprised that the 'dump Cordero' thread is all ready on the board but I guess I am anyway. :thumbdown

I guess this is all Dusty's fault though because everything is his fault on this board even when he's not the one throwing bad pitches in the 9th inning. *is grumpy because of the game and the usual fan overreactions*

19 - 25 in save opps. 12 mil/year. Weathers was far from traffic-stopping last year but even he saved 84% of his chances over an entire season. And I said nothing about Dusty Baker.

Certainly it is not Cordero's fault that we overpaid for him but certainly you must acknowledge that we were sold a bill of goods.

captainmorgan07
07-17-2008, 11:51 PM
Im not saying dump Cordero but for 48 million he needs to pitch better than this. Even in his saves there's men on base, too many walks given up. He's plagued by the same disease that hits all reds pitchers, throwing to many good pitches when their ahead in the count.

Jones1
07-17-2008, 11:53 PM
He's blown five saves now in 25 tries, He walks to many batters as well. Im not ready to take away the closer spot yet but he's on the hot seat. Anymore blown saves in the next few weeks and in my opinion he needs to be demoted to setup and let Burton close em.

P.S. Wanna see a good closer watch Wagner!

major harris
07-17-2008, 11:53 PM
Coming into tonight Reds 34-1 after leading thru 7 innings. Quit bellyaching. It happens.

keeganbrick
07-17-2008, 11:54 PM
Im not saying dump Cordero but for 48 million he needs to pitch better than this. Even in his saves there's men on base, too many walks given up. He's plagued by the same disease that hits all reds pitchers, throwing to many good pitches when their ahead in the count.

Exactly, nothing like a get ahead fastball on a 1-2 count. Some of it might have to do with the horrible job our catchers do of blocking balls in the dirt.

Oxilon
07-17-2008, 11:55 PM
Please find another post in which I exhibited "fair weather" tendencies. Instead of ad hominem arguments, please debate the content of my post.

Sorry, but ten minutes after he blows a save there's already a couple threads created telling us how he is a waste of money and a roster spot. Why not post this some other time, perhaps when he is saving a game (which he usually is), instead of after he immediately blows one? Not everybody is Eric Gagne circa 2004-2005. Blown saves happen, even to the best of them. Hell, K-Rod blew a save the game before the All Star game.

I just think you reacted to fast and got caught up in the moment. Let the game be over first and let cooler heads appeal.

captainmorgan07
07-17-2008, 11:55 PM
Coming into tonight Reds 34-1 after leading thru 7 innings. Quit bellyaching. It happens.

Yes but games like these demoralize teams when they continue to come back to get the lead and have it blown by their closers.

AFalcon10
07-17-2008, 11:57 PM
Cordero is not on the hot seat. He has underpreformed but there is no doubt that hes the best player we have for the closer role. All closers not named mariano rivera go through tough stretches. Dissapoingting loss tonight for sure.

TheBigLebowski
07-18-2008, 12:00 AM
Sorry, but ten minutes after he blows a save there's already a couple threads created telling us how he is a waste of money and a roster spot. Why not post this some other time, perhaps when he is saving a game (which he usually is), instead of after he immediately blows one? Not everybody is Eric Gagne circa 2004-2005. Blown saves happen, even to the best of them. Hell, K-Rod blew a save the game before the All Star game.

I just think you reacted to fast and got caught up in the moment. Let the game be over first and let cooler heads appeal.


The game is over and my opinion has not changed. Francisco Cordero is not worth the money we paid him. You don't deserve 48 million dollars to save 4 out of every 5 games. A save is not really that hard to get in most instances - you get at least a one run lead; oftentimes 2 (such as tonight) and in some cases 3. All the closer needs to do is get 3 outs. Schoeneweis did a better job 2 years ago. Scott Schoeneweis. Weathers was better at it last year. But we pay Cordero 48 mil to do this job and he's worse than anyone we've had since post-98 Degrees Danny Graves. Yeah, I think it's okay to complain about that. Tonight was a crushing blow.

Oxilon
07-18-2008, 12:01 AM
19 - 25 in save opps. 12 mil/year. Weathers was far from traffic-stopping last year but even he saved 84% of his chances over an entire season. And I said nothing about Dusty Baker.

Certainly it is not Cordero's fault that we overpaid for him but certainly you must acknowledge that we were sold a bill of goods.

I hate the Weathers argument. The guy was running on fumes and hit the jackpot by having a career year, lots of which was by luck, for a craptastic 2007 Reds team. Stick him in there now, lets see what happens. Here's a hint, they'll be a couple 'Bring Back Cordero' threads minutes after his first save opporunity.

And for the record, I hate the idea of sticking Burton as the closer too. Yes, he's been our best reliever to date, but there's a difference between ending the 7th or 8th, and closing the 9th. So much of a difference that one guy gets minimum MLB salary and the other guy can afford to buy the 40 man roster a Morton's Delmonico everynight? Probably not, but there's a reason everyteam is paying that closer millions while the unheard of setup man makes pennies and nickels in comparison.

TheBigLebowski
07-18-2008, 12:03 AM
Cordero is not on the hot seat. He has underpreformed but there is no doubt that hes the best player we have for the closer role. All closers not named mariano rivera go through tough stretches. Dissapoingting loss tonight for sure.

Are you sure he's better for it than Jared Burton? I'm not. However, the biggest concern is the fact that we paid FC 48 mil for this nonsense. Tonight is not the first night this kind of crap has happened. He never makes anything easy. Even when he does close the door, there's almost always a bunch of drama and heartache involved.

TheBigLebowski
07-18-2008, 12:06 AM
I hate the Weathers argument. The guy was running on fumes and hit the jackpot by having a career year, lots of which was by luck, for a craptastic 2007 Reds team. Stick him in there now, lets see what happens. Here's a hint, they'll be a couple 'Bring Back Cordero' threads minutes after his first save opporunity.

And for the record, I hate the idea of sticking Burton as the closer too. Yes, he's been our best reliever to date, but there's a difference between ending the 7th or 8th, and closing the 9th. So much of a difference that one guy gets minimum MLB salary and the other guy can afford to buy the 40 man roster a Morton's Delmonico everynight? Probably not, but there's a reason everyteam is paying that closer millions while the unheard of setup man makes pennies and nickels in comparison.

That's not the point. The point is, a team can find a Weathers, Kevin Gregg, Matt Capps, SCOTT SCHOENEWEIS, etc...who can get the job capably done for a lot less than a guy like Cordero and, in most cases, do the job a helluva lot better. I don't think DW should have been our closer this year but there is no reason to believe we couldn't have found a replacement - i.e., Jared Burton, who could have done the job a helluva lot better than FC is.

The latter part of your argument makes no sense, especially when you acknowledged that DW "lucked" into a career year after being installed as the closer last season.

757690
07-18-2008, 12:10 AM
He's blown five saves now in 25 tries, He walks to many batters as well. Im not ready to take away the closer spot yet but he's on the hot seat. Anymore blown saves in the next few weeks and in my opinion he needs to be demoted to setup and let Burton close em.

P.S. Wanna see a good closer watch Wagner!

Wagner this year: 6 blown saves in 29 tries. Including three in a row from Jun 8-12.

Try again.

Oxilon
07-18-2008, 12:13 AM
A save is not really that hard to get in most instances - you get at least a one run lead; oftentimes 2 (such as tonight) and in some cases 3. All the closer needs to do is get 3 outs.

You say this as if you can do this yourself. Sure, it's just one inning. Just like the 6th, 7th, and 8th...wrong. Yes, logically it makes sense that it should be just as hard (or easy as you put it) to get through the 9th as prior innings, but it's not. There are additional components added that obviously all can't withstand, most notably the mental aspect of actually closing the game out with you on the line. Don't believe me? There's a reason that many teams try the closer by committee technique only to fall back to the tradional method of throwing millions at a closer.


Schoeneweis did a better job 2 years ago. Scott Schoeneweis. Weathers was better at it last year. But we pay Cordero 48 mil to do this job and he's worse than anyone we've had since post-98 Degrees Danny Graves. Yeah, I think it's okay to complain about that. Tonight was a crushing blow.

I'm sorry but I'm not ready to walk down the lines of retreads in hopes to catch lightening in a bottle with a 38 year old reliever who's on his dying bed as far as his career goes. Schoeneweis and Weathers both, were not only extremely fortunate and downright hittable, but saved meaningless games for a couple horrible Reds teams. Put them in a more pressured situation, say closing for the Red Sox, and I'd think we'd see more of their career norms rather their flash in the pan half a season. Cordero is a good pitcher. $48MM worth? No, but he was the best pitcher on the market and, while we paid, still a good investment never the less. And I really fail to see how tonight was a crushing blow? What, we're now 12 games back from the Cubs instead of a 11?

Newman4
07-18-2008, 12:13 AM
Before tonight:

ERA 2.30
47K in 43IP
.583 OPS Against
.191 Avg Against

What do you expect?

RedR8R
07-18-2008, 12:14 AM
This team just loves to find ways to lose. Sure Coco saves more than he blows, but Lebowski is right. He always makes it interesting and when you get 8 runs in any game Santana starts, you've got to close the door. This team needs a good start to have any chance of getting into the wild card race and a loss like this is totally demoralizing. There seems to be alot of apologists for this Reds team. These players and the manager have to be held accountable. This is the type of game a real team wins and shmitty team loses, and we know who lost. I'm sick of watching this crap.

HeatherC1212
07-18-2008, 12:15 AM
Wagner this year: 6 blown saves in 29 tries. Including three in a row from Jun 8-12.

Try again.

Thank you. Stuff like this is getting ridiculous here. :rolleyes:

Oxilon
07-18-2008, 12:22 AM
That's not the point. The point is, a team can find a Weathers, Kevin Gregg, Matt Capps, SCOTT SCHOENEWEIS, etc...who can get the job capably done for a lot less than a guy like Cordero and, in most cases, do the job a helluva lot better. I don't think DW should have been our closer this year but there is no reason to believe we couldn't have found a replacement - i.e., Jared Burton, who could have done the job a helluva lot better than FC is.

The latter part of your argument makes no sense, especially when you acknowledged that DW "lucked" into a career year after being installed as the closer last season.


What you wrote just epitomizes the Reds of the early to mid 2000's or the latter half of the Bowden era. Sure, the Reds could go out and get a reliable starter in free agency, but why go out and spend all that guaranteed money when we can sign a dozen career minor leaguers, has-beens, and never-was in Jimmy Anderson, Jimmy Haynes, Jeff Austin, Joey Hamilton, and Paul Wilson?

Trying to find lightening in the bottle for our closer in a couple washed up pichers is the last thing the Reds should try to do for such an important position. Cordero is a good pitcher. Cordero is a good closer. Period. I'm not going to let a mediocre half a season sway my judgement in any sense.

George Foster
07-18-2008, 12:24 AM
Wagner this year: 6 blown saves in 29 tries. Including three in a row from Jun 8-12.

Try again.


exactly... CoCo was just a little rusty because of the break...it happens. All "big time" closers blow games from time to time. If I remember the best closer maybe ever blew game 7 of the World Series to give the Diamond Backs the series. What's that guys name? He closes for the Yankees?;););)

Oxilon
07-18-2008, 12:30 AM
Wagner this year: 6 blown saves in 29 tries. Including three in a row from Jun 8-12.

Try again.

Not to mention he basically blew a save opportunity in All Star game, but that's never here or there ;)

TheBigLebowski
07-18-2008, 12:35 AM
What you wrote just epitomizes the Reds of the early to mid 2000's or the latter half of the Bowden era. Sure, the Reds could go out and get a reliable starter in free agency, but why go out and spend all that guaranteed money when we can sign a dozen career minor leaguers, has-beens, and never-was in Jimmy Anderson, Jimmy Haynes, Jeff Austin, Joey Hamilton, and Paul Wilson?

Trying to find lightening in the bottle for our closer in a couple washed up pichers is the last thing the Reds should try to do for such an important position. Cordero is a good pitcher. Cordero is a good closer. Period. I'm not going to let a mediocre half a season sway my judgement in any sense.

Jimmy B was nowhere near this signing. The merits of a legit starting pitcher cannot be debated. No one with a good head would try and, I, as well as you, was sick of the Haynes/Anderson/Austin/Etc types.

However, the closer position is something different. You don't necessarily have to find a complete pitcher to successfully fill the role. Again, that's why guys like Gregg, Capps, Weathers, Gagne, CJ Wilson, Salomon Freaking Torres, etc can play that role successfully. To compare the 2008 Reds hypothetically filling the closer role with a guy like one of the aforementioned to filling a key starter role with a Jimmy Anderson-type is a red herring and you know it.

Blue
07-18-2008, 12:35 AM
Not sure how you can look at his numbers this season and say he sucks. He's blown some saves but his numbers overall are really good. The blown saves are a matter of sample size. It happens.

TheBigLebowski
07-18-2008, 12:38 AM
Not sure how you can look at his numbers this season and say he sucks. He's blown some saves but his numbers overall are really good. The blown saves are a matter of sample size. It happens.

Ok. I will do this - I will admit the "Francisco Cordero Sucks" statement was due largely to frustration. However, I will not admit that he is an elite closer who is worth anything close to what we paid for him.

However, I do not get the statement "the blown saves are a matter of sample size" statement. He is 19 for 24. That is NOT good.

TheBigLebowski
07-18-2008, 12:47 AM
I'm sorry but I'm not ready to walk down the lines of retreads in hopes to catch lightening in a bottle with a 38 year old reliever who's on his dying bed as far as his career goes. Schoeneweis and Weathers both, were not only extremely fortunate and downright hittable, but saved meaningless games for a couple horrible Reds teams. Put them in a more pressured situation, say closing for the Red Sox, and I'd think we'd see more of their career norms rather their flash in the pan half a season. Cordero is a good pitcher. $48MM worth? No, but he was the best pitcher on the market and, while we paid, still a good investment never the less. And I really fail to see how tonight was a crushing blow? What, we're now 12 games back from the Cubs instead of a 11?

I've already explained that Weathers was probably not a good option to close for us this year, although I'd rather have saved 40-some-odd mil to see him try and correct the problem if and when it developed. Schoeneweis was never an option - just a case study from 2 years ago. You obviously didn't grasp the point I was trying to make. That point was that history shows that a team can find a serviceable closer without spending a lot of money. At least half of the teams in MLB do it from year to year.

Here's the cycle:

Small-to mid-market club appoints a middle reliever or setup man to the closer's position once the erstwhile closer prices himself out of the city.

New closer does a good or great job in the role.

Said closer either gets traded to a large-market, contending club or signs in an off-season with a club willing to overpay for a closer, again leaving a void in the small to mid-market team's closer role, only again to be re-filled by a middling reliever with the moxie to get 3 outs in the 9th. Our beloved Mr. Cordero followed a path not too dissimilar to the one I just outlined.

To wit, I do not really think Francisco is an awful pitcher. He's just not worth the money and he sure as hell is not as good as his stuff should allow him to be.

Oxilon
07-18-2008, 12:47 AM
Jimmy B was nowhere near this signing. The merits of a legit starting pitcher cannot be debated. No one with a good head would try and, I, as well as you, was sick of the Haynes/Anderson/Austin/Etc types.

Exactly. Except it seems like you don't mind a guy like those (Shoenweis and Weathers) coming into closing the game whereas I do.


However, the closer position is something different. You don't necessarily have to find a complete pitcher to successfully fill the role. Again, that's why guys like Gregg, Capps, Weathers, Gagne, CJ Wilson, Salomon Freaking Torres, etc can play that role successfully. To compare the 2008 Reds hypothetically filling the closer role with a guy like one of the aforementioned to filling a key starter role with a Jimmy Anderson-type is a red herring and you know it.

Again, that's neither here or there. So what you're basically saying is, while it's a horrible idea to insert retreads and has-beens as starters, it's a novile idea to do it for closers and it should be the mindset for mid-level franchises like the Reds. Sorry but having a quality closer is just as important as having a quality starter. I really don't feel comfortable of playing the guessing game and hoping 'Insert Aging AAA'er here' can come in a get us a save when we need it. Again, there's a reason every club spends the most money of any reliever for their closer rather go with a closer by committee -- becuase the latter doesn't work. Hell, even the cost efficient A's and Billy Beane realize this and have Huston Street.

Blue
07-18-2008, 12:50 AM
Ok. I will do this - I will admit the "Francisco Cordero Sucks" statement was due largely to frustration. However, I will not admit that he is an elite closer who is worth anything close to what we paid for him.

However, I do not get the statement "the blown saves are a matter of sample size" statement. He is 19 for 24. That is NOT good.

I'm not sure there are enough save opportunities in a season to make the SV/OP numbers significant in any given year. Its probably better to use ERA, K/9, WHIP, OPSA, and other stats to determine how good your closer is.

I will agree that we shouldn't have shelled out that kind of cash for Cordero or any other closer.

superred
07-18-2008, 12:51 AM
everybody calm down coco had a bad night it happens 2 everybody so calm down we probably did overpay him a little but ill take my chances with him EVERY single time over ANYONE else the reds have to close out the game:thumbdown

TheBigLebowski
07-18-2008, 12:55 AM
Exactly. Except it seems like you don't mind a guy like those (Shoenweis and Weathers) coming into closing the game whereas I do.



Again, that's neither here or there. So what you're basically saying is, while it's a horrible idea to insert retreads and has-beens as starters, it's a novile idea to do it for closers and it should be the mindset for mid-level franchises like the Reds. Sorry but having a quality closer is just as important as having a quality starter. I really don't feel comfortable of playing the guessing game and hoping 'Insert Aging AAA'er here' can come in a get us a save when we need it. Again, there's a reason every club spends the most money of any reliever for their closer rather go with a closer by committee -- becuase the latter doesn't work. Hell, even the cost efficient A's and Billy Beane realize this and have Huston Street.


No. NO NO NO NO NO. It isn't. Having a quality closer is nice but having quality starters is MUCH more important. Logically, it follows that there is no such thing as a closer without a starter to get him the lead. Furthermore, I never once advocated "inserting aging AAA'er here" as the closer. PLease show me where I did that.

As far as the practice of MLB clubs spending more money on their closer than their setup guys, come on...knocking over straw men is too easy. However, said practice does not always necessarily mean that the closer is the best reliever on staff; for example, see the Nats last year with Chad Cordero and Jon Rauch. The role of "closer," for better or for worse, has become the "lead singer of the rock band" role to have in a bullpen. I believe the position is more of a MLB construct than anything and I do acknowledge that my opinion there is highly debatable. I do, however, feel strongly that the other opinions I have laid forth in this thread are legitimate and well-defended.

superred
07-18-2008, 12:57 AM
the reason we lost tonight wasnt because of coco, corey patterson was on the field and he is obviously the reason coco got drilled :D

Oxilon
07-18-2008, 12:57 AM
I've already explained that Weathers was probably not a good option to close for us this year, although I'd rather have saved 40-some-odd mil to see him try and correct the problem if and when it developed.

You act as if that's any easy thing to fix. In instance we did in fact not sign Cordero and let Weathers become the closer, what now? Surely he'd already have been removed from the closer's role and than what would we have? Another large hole to fill. If there's any position on a club that you want dependency from, it's the closer. Cordero may not be worth $48MM, but it's a sure of a lot better than hoping we can catch a career year from some has-been.


Schoeneweis was never an option - just a case study from 2 years ago. You obviously didn't grasp the point I was trying to make. That point was that history shows that a team can find a serviceable closer without spending a lot of money. At least half of the teams in MLB do it from year to year.

Yes, they can. Also in trying to find that serviceable closer, they can land themselves into a lot of frustration and losing because they couldn't. If the Reds try year in and year out to find their closer through the Rule V and the waiver wire, I can ensure you they'll be more frustration and losing to emerge than saves.

TheBigLebowski
07-18-2008, 12:59 AM
You act as if that's any easy thing to fix. In instance we did in fact not sign Cordero and let Weathers become the closer, what now? Surely he'd already have been removed from the closer's role and than what would we have? Another large hole to fill. If there's any position on a club that you want dependency from, it's the closer. Cordero may not be worth $48MM, but it's a sure of a lot better than hoping we can catch a career year from some has-been.



Yes, they can. Also in trying to find that serviceable closer, they can land themselves into a lot of frustration and losing because they couldn't. If the Reds try year in and year out to find their closer through the Rule V and the waiver wire, I can ensure you they'll be more frustration and losing to emerge than saves.

Would you agree that the 48 mil we gave Cordero could have been better spent elsewhere?

Oxilon
07-18-2008, 01:06 AM
Would you agree that the 48 mil we gave Cordero could have been better spent elsewhere?

Where else? All I know is the Reds had a glaring hole at the closers position entering the season (you and me both know Weathers was due for a down year) and chose to fix it. The Reds opted to sign the best reliever (probably pitcher too) to become the Reds closer. While we overpayed, we certainly got quality back in the deal (regardless if he blew a save tonight). And I really don't see where the Reds could have invested the $48MM elsewhere.

TheBigLebowski
07-18-2008, 01:16 AM
Where else? All I know is the Reds had a glaring hole at the closers position entering the season (you and me both know Weathers was due for a down year) and chose to fix it. The Reds opted to sign the best reliever (probably pitcher too) to become the Reds closer. While we overpayed, we certainly got quality back in the deal (regardless if he blew a save tonight). And I really don't see where the Reds could have invested the $48MM elsewhere.

If we kept Stormy in the closer's role he'd probably have only blown one or two more saves than FC at this point. Let's say, worst case scenario, he would be 17-24 after today. I know this is all 20-20 rear-view mirror managing but I hope we learn from it. It is not wise for a mid-market team to overpay for an "elite" closer.

I will not agree that we got quality back in the deal. Not for 19-24 at this price. Not for 48 mil. I will admit that I do not recall what else would have been available for us to spend our money on when we signed FC, but I would sure as hell much rather have that 48 mil free headed into next season.

Let me just end this debate with this question (because it is late and I have to work in the morning): Do you think one of the contending teams would trade for FC, considering his performance and contract? If not, why not?

757690
07-18-2008, 01:18 AM
The purpose of signing Cordero was not just to firm up the closer position, but also to firm up all the other spots in the bullpen as well. The problem the Reds had last year was that the set up guys and middle relievers were blowing it before they had a chance to get it to the closer. Having Cordero in the closer roles has let Dusty use the other pitchers in more well defined roles, and they have performed very well.

Yes, Cordero is not worth $12M a year, but the effect he has on the bullpen as whole is definitely worth it.

I know that the value of having this years bullpen instead of last years is worth every penny spent.

superred
07-18-2008, 01:22 AM
if they wouldnt have had cordero this yr this team would be worse than last years by alot

Oxilon
07-18-2008, 01:22 AM
Cordero has a very solid track record, moreso than Weathers, to say the least. Good relief pitching is hard to come by the deadline (The Trade, i.e.), so a cotending team wouldn't be very smart to not consider bringing in Cordero for the stretch run if available. Now is contract is something else, but as we both know, the money being thrown around in free agency is only growing and looking back at this deal five years from now, I can ensure you $48MM for a closer won't look that bad.

BlastFurnace
07-18-2008, 01:29 AM
I thought it was a good signing and still do. I watched him in Texas for a couple years and he was decent. He's not Mariano Rivera guys where he just shuts you down. He's a good closer who will get the job done most of the time he is called upon.

Newman4
07-18-2008, 01:29 AM
I suggest we all go back to this thread on Oct. 1st or so and see where we stand. I believe this is a bump in the road and Cordero will save about 40 games and have an ERA under 3. Anyone else care to prognosticate?

As far as his contract, it was reported that Milwaukee offered 46 million...are they stupid too or is that just about the going rate for Cordero? Maybe the Reds overpaid a little, but it was an area of need and I don't necessarily regret it thus far because of one bad outing.

superred
07-18-2008, 01:30 AM
I suggest we all go back to this thread on Oct. 1st or so and see where we stand. I believe this is a bump in the road and Cordero will save about 40 games and have an ERA under 3. Anyone else care to prognosticate?

i agree completely

Griffey012
07-18-2008, 08:45 AM
Wow. I feel a portion of the reds fans deserve a cellar dwelling team that loses 100 games year in and year out. Weathers loses the game against Milwaukee, we get threads about why is he here, should his time be done, he is an old bum. Coco has a horrific inning and now discussion about him being a waste of money, he should be gone, weathers should be our closer! Are you serious just a few days ago this guys head was on the chopping block. I guess nobody remembers last year and the year before when the biggest problem was even getting to the 9th inning with a lead and not having other people blow it before us. If there's no Cordero, instead of having Burton and Weather pitch the key late game innings to get the ball to Coco, you have Bray? Majikman? Take your pick and see how many more games we lose because of that.

IF Gagne would have saved 80 some straight games for us and then imploded, we would have fans calling him a waste of money and a crappy investment because he demoralized the team with one loss. A loss like this doesn't demoralize a good team, a good team will come out the next day, a brand new day, and pick up their teammate, get the ball to him in the 9th against and have full confidence in him. If we get down and get smoaked, there is our sign.

And we had to pay a bit over market value for CoCo because we have not been very good lately.

Redeye fly
07-18-2008, 09:41 AM
Jimmy B was nowhere near this signing. The merits of a legit starting pitcher cannot be debated. No one with a good head would try and, I, as well as you, was sick of the Haynes/Anderson/Austin/Etc types.

However, the closer position is something different. You don't necessarily have to find a complete pitcher to successfully fill the role. Again, that's why guys like Gregg, Capps, Weathers, Gagne, CJ Wilson, Salomon Freaking Torres, etc can play that role successfully. To compare the 2008 Reds hypothetically filling the closer role with a guy like one of the aforementioned to filling a key starter role with a Jimmy Anderson-type is a red herring and you know it.

Gregg is 20-26 in save opportunities this year. Capps was 17-22. Gagne wasn't exactly a bargain basement closer, especially once he established himself. And in his "comeback year" of 2007, yeah he was 16-17 with Texas, but he wasn't even averaging a full innning per appearance, and he imploded big time with Boston... and Milwaukee shelled out 10 million for him to implode even worse there. CJ Wilson? Yeah the saves/blown saves look good, but the 1.57 WHIP and 6 home runs allowed in 41.1 IP does not. Cordero has allowed 4 in 43.1 IP. Salmon Freaking Torres? I'm glad you put the freaking in, because he's about like having Weathers as your closer... maybe you and he get lucky if he's in that role.

The problem with all those guys is that they're just as likely to go the Joe Borowski route as they are the Bob Wickman or Doug Jones route... who still had their share of rough stretches as well. The problem with relying on those types for more than one year is you're really playing with fire because their margin of error is always so small.

If you're making the argument you can find a guy elsewhere to go 19-24 in save chances and do so a lot cheaper, sure. But how do you know the cheaper guy doesn't save only 15 out of his next 24, if you even give him that many chances at that point? A guy with Cordero's stuff and fairly solid track record stands a much better chance of not only going completely lights out, but being consistently good year in and year out over guys like CJ Wilson, David Weathers, and Salomon Torres.

markymark69
07-18-2008, 11:59 AM
Are you kidding me?! He has his first HORRIBLE night of the whole season tonight and you're ready to throw him to the wolves for it. I shouldn't be surprised that the 'dump Cordero' thread is all ready on the board but I guess I am anyway. :thumbdown

I guess this is all Dusty's fault though because everything is his fault on this board even when he's not the one throwing bad pitches in the 9th inning. *is grumpy because of the game and the usual fan overreactions*

Right On, Heather

markymark69
07-18-2008, 12:05 PM
the reason we lost tonight wasnt because of coco, corey patterson was on the field and he is obviously the reason coco got drilled :D

I forgot about that. You're right, that must be it.:D

AFalcon10
07-18-2008, 12:50 PM
Yes we overpaid for him. No he is not washed up. CoCo has been a integral part of our vastly improved bullpen and will continue to be. I dont think Jared is ready for the role yet, even if he was healthy. It really is a whole nother challenge.

bgwilly31
07-18-2008, 01:04 PM
A lot of people here are OVER-reacting because this one hurt.

And A lot of people here (the Usuals) Are under reacting because they brain dead and have been hypnotized by the reds organization into being ok with a mediocre team for the past 18yrs.

COCO judging from his contract should be the best closer in the league.

As of today he is saving 3 out of every 4 games. A whopping 75%. And the hidden stats of the other handful of games that he made very interesting but still got away with.

So yes coco has been dissapointing so far this year. And this one freaking hurt!

markymark69
07-18-2008, 01:19 PM
Granted last night Cordero was not good. His worst outing as a Red by far.

I did some comparison to other NL closers. This won't tell the whole story, but to say that this was a bad signing is premature.

Cordero 4-2, 3.12 ERA (2.30 before last night) 19/24 in saves (79.2 %)
(Note the Reds won at least two of the games in which he recorded a blown save).

Billy Wagner (NYM) 0-1, 2.25 ERA 23/29 (79.3%)
Jose Valverde (HOU) 4-2 3.80, 24/29 (82.8)
Eric Gagne (MIL) 2-2, 7.33, 10/15 (66.7)
Salomon Torres (MIL) 4-2, 2.74, 15/18 (83.3)
Jason Isringhausen (STL) 1-5, 5.97, 11/18 (61.1)
Ryan Franklin (STL) 3-2, 3.56, 13/17 (76.5)
Kerry Wood (CHC) 4-2, 3.02, 24/29 (82.8)
Matt Capps (PIT) 2-3, 3.12, 17/22 (77.3)
Braves by committee 14/24 (58.3)
Brandon Lyon (AZ) 2-3, 2.43, 19/23 (82.6)
Takashi Saito (LAD) 3-3, 2.18, 17/20 (85.0)
Brian Wilson (SF) 0-2, 4.58, 25/27 (92.6)
Gregg (FLA) 6-4, 2.60, 20/26 (76.9)
Jon Rauch (WSH) 4-2, 2.85, 17/22 (77.2)
Trevor Hoffman (SD) 1-5, 5.08, 17/20 (85.0)
Brad Lidge (PHI) 2-0, 1.13, 20/20 (100) Pitching out of his mind this year.
Brian Fuentes (COL) 1-4, 3.32, 15/19 (78.9)
Manny Corpas (COL) 1-3, 5.24, 4/10 (40.0)

Rivera is the standard bearer 23/23
Others
Papelbon 28/32
K-Rod 38/41
Nathan 27/29

Chalk it up to a horrible outing (one). Overall, Cordero is in the upper half of closers in the NL.

Redeye fly
07-18-2008, 02:40 PM
A lot of people here are OVER-reacting because this one hurt.

And A lot of people here (the Usuals) Are under reacting because they brain dead and have been hypnotized by the reds organization into being ok with a mediocre team for the past 18yrs.

COCO judging from his contract should be the best closer in the league.

As of today he is saving 3 out of every 4 games. A whopping 75%. And the hidden stats of the other handful of games that he made very interesting but still got away with.

So yes coco has been dissapointing so far this year. And this one freaking hurt!

So the people who are saying Cordero has been pathetic are over reacting, but the people who aren't ready to throw him off a cliff after last night's really bad outing are brain dead and brainwashed (basically)?

That seems like a little less than even handed evaluation to me.

I agree he has been a bit disappointing based on any expectations Reds fans had for him based off of the year he had last year and for the contract he signed. But last year or 2004 was a career year, probably for Cordero, depending on how you want to look at the numbers. He actually had a lower ERA and more saves, as well as a lower slugging percentage against him in 2004 with the Rangers. But he had a lower OBP against, lower batting average against, more K/9 and a better K/BB ratio (over 4.50) in 2007 with the Brewers.

As far as "should be's because of contract", well one could make the argument that the guys the Brewers got to replace Cordero should be better than him this year, seeing as how according to the ESPN player cards, Cordero is making just over 8.6 million this year and Gagne is making an even 10 million to utterly sick and be unhealthy in Milwaukee.

I would agree Cordero needs to step it up a bit, but he has the ability to do just that. Even after last night's awful performance, his numbers still don't seem that far out of line for what he's done the bulk of his career. Last night he was extremely hittable, and despite any blown saves prior, that all in all has still been pretty rare this year. The one thing that has been a bit troubling has been a little bit of an increased walk rate and a decreased strike out rate, but then again it's hard to rise above the 12.22 K/9 he had last year, and this year's 9.97 K/9 is still above his career average, though below his Milwaukee averages. For some reason he really took a liking to Milwaukee and Miller Park last year, as he had a 1.09 ERA at home and 6.55 on the road, and batting average against below .150 at home and .337 on the road. Even last year, he struggled in June and July, with a June ERA of 7.50 and a July ERA of 4.66, then he picked it up again a bit in August and September, so he may do the same again this year. And while I'm not going to use it as justification for any poor performances, the Reds ball club hasn't exactly presented him with loads of opportunities to save games, and one would think that any closer or relief pitcher needs to get into some kind of rhythm and comfort zone. Right now it doesn't appear as if he's going to get anywhere close to 40-45 saves, and that's not all on Cordero.

Based on some of his numbers last year in what was one of at least the two best seasons of his career, yeah the Reds overpaid a bit. But the margin between success and failure as a closer or reliever can be so slim that a few fluky things here and there can throw everything off... which I'm not saying is happening with Cordero, just that it can happen. It just so happened that Cordero had a big contract year and the Reds paid what the market demanded... seeing as how the only outbid the Brewers by a couple million. It may have been a mistake, but then one could make an argument that crying mistake 43.1 innings into the contract is "typical Reds fan doom and gloom". The one thing that's concerning is that Cordero has become more hittable and seen his ERA rise each month this year, although July's rise pretty much all happened last night. His walk rate, though, has gone down a bit the past couple months... it's still not particularly good, or at least it wasn't in June, but it has gone down.

He hasn't exactly earned every penny of his contract yet, but he hasn't been the complete disaster some here are making him out to be either.

Kingspoint
07-18-2008, 05:01 PM
http://www.rolaidsreliefman.com/

akron3344
07-18-2008, 05:07 PM
ov errated 5 blown saves equals 10 losses blocking momentum and reversing come from behind victories, low budget clubs needs tro grow their won closer not pay four years for another pyromaniac

PTI (pti)
07-18-2008, 08:27 PM
I refuse to let myself have an overblown, knee-jerk reaction to Cordero's recent struggles, b/c I still believe he's got the ability to be one of the better closers in the game. Every time he enters the game, he's got a chance to strike out the side - and that's a really good thing. I'm still very comfortable with him as our closer. BUT - what *does* really concern me is the actual move itself, and, namely, Bob Castellini's role in the situation.

I just really question Castellini's ability to lead this team from the top. Sure, he's great at making demanding statements, he's not afraid to open up his wallet, etc, etc - but can he actually help us win games?? Can he run help build a consistently successful, small-market organization?


Going into 2008, he honestly thought he could put this team into contention by:


- spending nearly $50 million on a closer (a guy that comes into the game to get only 3 outs at a time)
- hiring a "big name" manager (if I were to list 100 things the Reds need to do to become successful on a regular basis, hiring a "big name" manager would be at least #101)
- firing Wayne Krivsky (to be determined)



Unless Francisco Cordero becomes one of the 2 or 3 best closers in the game, this is yet another HORRIBLE allocation of resources for a team that just cannot afford to f up. I just have a bad, bad feeling that we haven't seen the last of Cincinnati's really stupid free agent moves. I'm just wondering what we'll do next. Perhaps a $100 million contract for Manny Ramirez??

AFalcon10
07-18-2008, 10:44 PM
Coco looked solid tonight.. we may have overpaid for him but you cant argue with the effect hes had on the pen as a whole.. not much else has changed out there besides the addition of Coco and they have turned around 180. Jareds a great setup man for him.

Kingspoint
07-18-2008, 10:46 PM
Coco looked solid tonight.. we may have overpaid for him but you cant argue with the effect hes had on the pen as a whole.. not much else has changed out there besides the addition of Coco and they have turned around 180. Jareds a great setup man for him.

Couldn't agree more. It may have been overpaying for one guy, but the overall value is worth it for the team.

PTI (pti)
07-18-2008, 10:56 PM
Couldn't agree more. It may have been overpaying for one guy, but the overall value is worth it for the team.


How can you say this???

Do you *honestly* think there isn't a better way we could have spent $46 million? The Reds are 4 games under .500 right now - which is to say they aren't a very good ballclub. WITHOUT Cordero's presence in the bullpen this year, how much worse would this team be??


My guess is not much - so I *really* fail to see his value, at least thus far.

HeatherC1212
07-18-2008, 10:57 PM
Cordero looked great tonight and I'm glad he got a chance right away to get back on the mound. He needed that after last night's insanity and he stepped up to the challenge of putting last night behind him. I love that David Wright was the last out of the game too. That was fitting, LOL ;)

AFalcon10
07-18-2008, 10:59 PM
How can you say this???

Do you *honestly* think there isn't a better way we could have spent $46 million? The Reds are 4 games under .500 right now - which is to say they aren't a very good ballclub. WITHOUT Cordero's presence in the bullpen this year, how much worse would this team be??


My guess is not much - so I *really* fail to see his value, at least thus far.


I think we would be a lot worse.. not even sniffing a wild card hunt. The bullpen has been in my estimation the most consistent part of this team and its clear to me Coco has had a lot to do with that. He has freed up others for roles they fit better rather than lasts years disaster. Of course it shouldnt have cost 50 million for it but seeing our pen struggle for so long this is a nice breath of relief.

redram
07-18-2008, 11:03 PM
Wow and how can you say this ?? Do you not remember the past few years with no closer in our BP how many games the Reds blew late in the game. It was as bad as it could get with Graves, Coffey and whoever else they threw in there. The Reds may be 4 games under 500 but not becasue of the Closer or the BP and that is a huge improvement over past years. Once we get a legit number 3 hitter and get past ( even though I Love Him ) Griffey, this team is getting closer and closer to being a legit contender. We must have a solid closer to do this and Cordero is as good as we have had in many many years.




How can you say this???

Do you *honestly* think there isn't a better way we could have spent $46 million? The Reds are 4 games under .500 right now - which is to say they aren't a very good ballclub. WITHOUT Cordero's presence in the bullpen this year, how much worse would this team be??


My guess is not much - so I *really* fail to see his value, at least thus far.

Kingspoint
07-19-2008, 12:37 AM
How can you say this???

Do you *honestly* think there isn't a better way we could have spent $46 million? The Reds are 4 games under .500 right now - which is to say they aren't a very good ballclub. WITHOUT Cordero's presence in the bullpen this year, how much worse would this team be??


My guess is not much - so I *really* fail to see his value, at least thus far.

While I feel that Cordero has pitched terribly this year for the money he's being paid, and that Weather may have ended up closing the same % of games that Cordero has this year, I also feel that by making everyone else's job in the pen less dificult, the entire bullpen has benefited. Thus, I feel that the $46M was actually spent on the entire pen, even though only one guy gets to cash the paychecks.

Cordero closed games at an 84% rate last season, while getting a high number of opportunities (51). So, he's capable of producing at a high level. When this team is in the playoffs next season, Cordero will be a major factor for doing so.

Castellini has committed to a higher payroll in attempting to build a winner. Jockety wouldn't be here if he couldn't spend a lot of money. It's what he does best. When the REDS "buy" another pitcher this Winter for $45M(Derek Lowe), money they'll save by not resigning Dunn, the Cordero contract will be looked at as just another piece of the puzzle.

AFalcon10
07-19-2008, 01:03 AM
When the REDS "buy" another pitcher this Winter for $45M(Derek Lowe), money they'll save by not resigning Dunn, the Cordero contract will be looked at as just another piece of the puzzle.


It would be nice to have a sinkerballer in the launching pad that is GABP.. and i dont think Fausto or Webb are moving anytime soon.

Griffey012
07-19-2008, 01:32 AM
IF Gagne would have saved 80 some straight games for us and then imploded, we would have fans calling him a waste of money and a crappy investment because he demoralized the team with one loss. A loss like this doesn't demoralize a good team, a good team will come out the next day, a brand new day, and pick up their teammate, get the ball to him in the 9th against and have full confidence in him. If we get down and get smoaked, there is our sign.

And we had to pay a bit over market value for CoCo because we have not been very good lately.

We did it. Great Night!

Kingspoint
07-21-2008, 11:03 PM
Much more of this and I'm going to switch sides and say that it wasn't worth the money to spend on Cordero.

Blue
07-21-2008, 11:07 PM
Time will tell whether this is a bump in the road or the beginning of the end of his effectiveness.

captainmorgan07
07-21-2008, 11:07 PM
He continues to blow saves . His problem is too many walks. He continues to go away and not challenge any hitters.

James B.
07-21-2008, 11:10 PM
He will not throw his fastball on a regular basis.

Blue
07-21-2008, 11:14 PM
He will not throw his fastball on a regular basis.

Its only 96 mph.

Kingspoint
07-21-2008, 11:16 PM
The guy who invented "the save" died today. Maybe Cordero was honoring him by showing how important it is.

captainmorgan07
07-21-2008, 11:19 PM
He will not throw his fastball on a regular basis.

I agree there he can pump it up there in the mid 90's he needs to start blowing guys away. He needs to quit nibbling to.

Kingspoint
07-21-2008, 11:20 PM
A closer saves games.

Hoffman has closed 14 of his last 15 chances.

Cordero started out the season by closing out his first 7, but it's been downhill from there.

Hoffman's ERA is at 5 while Cordero's has been around 2-1/2 all year, but one's a closer, while the other imitates Todd Coffey.

757690
07-21-2008, 11:24 PM
Not to make excuses, because Cordera simply failed tonight, but he did have Hairston and Giles struck out, but the umps made horrible calls. Still, he should have overcome them.

As I said before, the Reds paid a premium price for a decent, but not premium closer. The effect he had on the bullpen as whole has made it worth it this year at least IMHO, but Reds fans should get used to him blowing around 20% of his saves. That has been his history.

Jefferson24
07-21-2008, 11:25 PM
He doesn't throw enough strikes. Trys to get people fishing then walks one or two, then has to throw down the middle and guess what...blown save. Waste of money. The closer is supposed to be the last piece of the puzzle not one of the first. This team has no business spending that kind of money on a closer.

TheBigLebowski
07-21-2008, 11:27 PM
Are there still folks out there who want to argue with me?

edogg07
07-21-2008, 11:27 PM
lets not forget jay bruces horrible denfense on the double that gave them the lead cordero sucks but jay bruce has been a big disappointment

Jack Burton
07-21-2008, 11:30 PM
Downright pitiful. Bad signing, money should have been spent elsewhere. Freak. Joke. The idea is to hold the lead buddy. Go punch a brick wall.

captainmorgan07
07-21-2008, 11:32 PM
lets not forget jay bruces horrible denfense on the double that gave them the lead cordero sucks but jay bruce has been a big disappointment

Are u serious? Who else would be playing in the outfield now if Jay's not up here? The kids showing he belongs. He's a rookie we can't expect him to be perfect every night out there.

Mutaman
07-21-2008, 11:32 PM
The Padres had been 0-53 when trailing after eight innings.

ChatterRed
07-21-2008, 11:36 PM
I'm seriously disappointed in Cordero. It appears to be a bad signing. Can we give him to the Brewers?

757690
07-21-2008, 11:38 PM
Are there still folks out there who want to argue with me?

An old chinese fable:

A young boy gets a horse for his birthday and everyone says how lucky he is. The zen masters says, "We'll see."

The young boy falls off the horse and breaks both his legs, and everyone says how unlucky he is. The zen master says, "We'll see."

The village goes to war with another village and all the young boys are drafted to fight, except the young boy with the horse, since he has two broken legs. He is the only boy of his age to survive the war. Everyone says how lucky he is. The zen master says, "We'll see."

A beautiful young princess comes to the village looking for a husband. She falls in love with the young boy, but cannot marry him because he did not fight in the war and therefore does not have the experience needed to be a prince. Everyone says how unlucky he is. The zen master says, "We'll see."

My first line of argument against yours:

"We'll see."

Jack Burton
07-21-2008, 11:39 PM
The Padres had been 0-53 when trailing after eight innings.

Ouch. Salt in the wound.

captainmorgan07
07-21-2008, 11:42 PM
With Peavy and Maddux pitching Cordero might just have thrown away our only chance of a win this series sad to say. Peavy and Maddux both make this club look like their pitching to Knothole hitters.

sammonator
07-21-2008, 11:43 PM
I think the biggest problem with Cordero now is that he will not throw inside. These hitters are poking the ball to right field knowing that he is not throwing inside. David Wright did it Friday, 2 of the Pads did it tonight. He needs to be throwing the fastball inside more. As a catcher you should be able to see this and at least throw a show me fastball inside or something. You simply cannot live with just throwing that slider outside every pitch. At least that is what I am seeing. He also struck Giles out on a fastball that was called a ball. But against righties, he simply isn't pitching inside. The pitching coach should also know these things.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-21-2008, 11:53 PM
An old chinese fable:

A young boy gets a horse for his birthday and everyone says how lucky he is. The zen masters says, "We'll see."

The young boy falls off the horse and breaks both his legs, and everyone says how unlucky he is. The zen master says, "We'll see."

The village goes to war with another village and all the young boys are drafted to fight, except the young boy with the horse, since he has two broken legs. He is the only boy of his age to survive the war. Everyone says how lucky he is. The zen master says, "We'll see."

A beautiful young princess comes to the village looking for a husband. She falls in love with the young boy, but cannot marry him because he did not fight in the war and therefore does not have the experience needed to be a prince. Everyone says how unlucky he is. The zen master says, "We'll see."

My first line of argument against yours:

"We'll see."

How does the story end?!?! I must know! He doesn't get the princess but meets Jessica Alba at a broken leg convention? Don't leave us hanging!

Blue
07-22-2008, 12:11 AM
An old chinese fable:

A young boy gets a horse for his birthday and everyone says how lucky he is. The zen masters says, "We'll see."

The young boy falls off the horse and breaks both his legs, and everyone says how unlucky he is. The zen master says, "We'll see."

The village goes to war with another village and all the young boys are drafted to fight, except the young boy with the horse, since he has two broken legs. He is the only boy of his age to survive the war. Everyone says how lucky he is. The zen master says, "We'll see."

A beautiful young princess comes to the village looking for a husband. She falls in love with the young boy, but cannot marry him because he did not fight in the war and therefore does not have the experience needed to be a prince. Everyone says how unlucky he is. The zen master says, "We'll see."

My first line of argument against yours:

"We'll see."

Phillip Seymour Hoffman was great in that movie.

Newman4
07-22-2008, 01:16 AM
Cordero may pitch a little better when he starts throwing inside occasionally and lays off the 2 strike slider. Mets and Pads sat all over that 2 strike outside corner and drilled everything opposite field. Dick Pole is the worst pitching coach in baseball and whoever the hitting coach is sucks major butt. Can we ever take a pitch with the bases loaded? Nice job guys.

Kingspoint
07-22-2008, 01:42 AM
Fire Dick Pole!

levydl
07-22-2008, 11:00 AM
The Padres had been 0-53 when trailing after eight innings.

Well then they were obviously due.

ChatterRed
07-22-2008, 11:10 AM
I fixed it for you.


An old chinese fable:

A young boy, named Mick Cronin, gets a horse for his birthday and everyone says how lucky he is. The zen masters says, "We'll see."

The young boy falls off the horse and breaks both his legs, and everyone says how unlucky he is. The zen master says, "We'll see."

The village goes to war with another village and all the young boys are drafted to fight, except the young boy with the horse, since he has two broken legs. He is the only boy of his age to survive the war. Everyone says how lucky he is. The zen master says, "We'll see."

A beautiful young princess comes to the village looking for a husband. She falls in love with the young boy, but cannot marry him because he did not fight in the war and therefore does not have the experience needed to be a prince. Everyone says how unlucky he is. The zen master says, "We'll see." Mick Cronin answers "no........UC".

My first line of argument against yours:

"UC" :D ;)

texasdave
07-22-2008, 11:31 AM
As I said before, the Reds paid a premium price for a decent, but not premium closer. The effect he had on the bullpen as whole has made it worth it this year at least IMHO, but Reds fans should get used to him blowing around 20% of his saves. That has been his history.

There are only two Reds' relievers that pitched significant innings in both 2007and 2008. If there really is a "Cordero Effect" then it would seem likely that these two would have improved. Did that happen? Honestly, no it didn't. And why would it happen? It is not like the closer role was a problem for this team in 2007. Arguably the Reds had a better closer in 2007 than in 2008 so far. I could agree that there is a difference between the closer role and any other bullpen role. But why would it make any difference if you are trying to get people out in the 8th as opposed to the 7th as opposed to the 6th?


1)Dave Weathers was freed from his role as closer and moved to set-up man. 2007 ERA - 3.59. 2008 ERA - 3.35. A marginal improvement.

2)Jared Burton 2007 ERA - 2.51. 2008 ERA - 2.23. Once again marginal improvement.

The reason the Reds bullpen is better is because they have better arms out there. Instead of running an over-the-hill Mike Stanton out there for 57 2/3 innings at an ERA of 5.93, the Reds now have Jeremy Affeldt giving them 48 1/3 innings at an ERA of 3.91. A big improvement.

And instead of running Todd Coffey out there for 51.0 innings at an ERA of 5.81, the Reds now have Mike Lincoln tossing 46 1/3 innings at an ERA of 3.69. Another big difference.

Add in the fact that Cordero himself has pitched 46.0 innings at an ERA of 3.52, innings that last year would have gone to not-so-skilled relievers, and one point becomes clear. The Reds' bullpen improvement has come about due to an influx of talent and not utilization.

ChatterRed
07-22-2008, 12:25 PM
They need to sign Mike Lincoln to an extension right now. The guy is getting better and better.

PTI (pti)
07-22-2008, 08:44 PM
I just hope this finally puts to rest any notion that the Reds spending $46 million on a 3-out pitcher is a good idea. Even if Cordero was the best closer in baseball, we'd still be on the outside of the playoff hunt looking in. And until we have leadership at the top of the organization that finally commits to rebuilding this franchise and making wise financial decisions that are more befitting a small market team, it's going to be more and more of the same bs for the forseeable future - they'll get close enough to tease us for a few months, but ultimately fall painfully short of the playoffs.

Kingspoint
07-22-2008, 09:09 PM
I just hope this finally puts to rest any notion that the Reds spending $46 million on a 3-out pitcher is a good idea. Even if Cordero was the best closer in baseball, we'd still be on the outside of the playoff hunt looking in. And until we have leadership at the top of the organization that finally commits to rebuilding this franchise and making wise financial decisions that are more befitting a small market team, it's going to be more and more of the same bs for the forseeable future - they'll get close enough to tease us for a few months, but ultimately fall painfully short of the playoffs.


The leaders in Games Saved are as often as not from the worst teams in baseball. A lot of good it does them.

TheBigLebowski
07-22-2008, 09:34 PM
It appears there is consensus that the signing was bad, regardless of Cordero's performance.

Considering his performance has been less than steller, the signing becomes that much worse.

I do hope WJ is floating FC's name to several contending GM's and gauging the interest. Just free us of the salary constraints and grab a "B" type of prospect and he'll have done well. We can find another closer for a lot cheaper and invest the remainder of that 46 mil elsewhere.

757690
07-22-2008, 10:05 PM
There are only two Reds' relievers that pitched significant innings in both 2007and 2008. If there really is a "Cordero Effect" then it would seem likely that these two would have improved. Did that happen? Honestly, no it didn't. And why would it happen? It is not like the closer role was a problem for this team in 2007. Arguably the Reds had a better closer in 2007 than in 2008 so far. I could agree that there is a difference between the closer role and any other bullpen role. But why would it make any difference if you are trying to get people out in the 8th as opposed to the 7th as opposed to the 6th?


1)Dave Weathers was freed from his role as closer and moved to set-up man. 2007 ERA - 3.59. 2008 ERA - 3.35. A marginal improvement.

2)Jared Burton 2007 ERA - 2.51. 2008 ERA - 2.23. Once again marginal improvement.

The reason the Reds bullpen is better is because they have better arms out there. Instead of running an over-the-hill Mike Stanton out there for 57 2/3 innings at an ERA of 5.93, the Reds now have Jeremy Affeldt giving them 48 1/3 innings at an ERA of 3.91. A big improvement.

And instead of running Todd Coffey out there for 51.0 innings at an ERA of 5.81, the Reds now have Mike Lincoln tossing 46 1/3 innings at an ERA of 3.69. Another big difference.

Add in the fact that Cordero himself has pitched 46.0 innings at an ERA of 3.52, innings that last year would have gone to not-so-skilled relievers, and one point becomes clear. The Reds' bullpen improvement has come about due to an influx of talent and not utilization.

The Reds bullpen is better than last years for many reasons, one is better arms, but another I think clearly is that the Reds have the right pitchers in the right spot.

I would throw out ERA in determining the productivity of a relief pitcher. They don't get charged for inherited runners, and sometimes they walk one guy, and the next pitcher lets him score. It is very unfair to relief pitchers. A better measure is WHIP and K/BB ratio.

Regardless, you need to compare the roles from last year to this year, not the player. That is what bringing in Cordero did, it allowed the Reds to put the right pitchers in the right role.

Cordero replaced Weathers as closer. About a wash, Cordero is in a slump and I have faith he will get out of it. At the end of the year, his numbers should be better than what Weathers did last year, but we'll see. Right now, they are about even.

Weathers and Burton replace a bunch of crap from last year. Huge advantage this year. And assume the Reds don't sign Cordero. You have Weathers closing and Burton and who else as set up men? Burton would be fine, but then you have either Lincoln or Bray, or Affeldt as setup men. Better than last year, but not as good as Weathers and Burton. And if you move Lincoln or Bray or Affeltd to set up, then you have Majewski pitching more, and taking Majewski's spot is Coffey. And now, when Burton is injured, that means even more Majewski and Coffey, and who knows who else.

That is the domino effect that signing Cordero gives you. Less Majewski and Coffey, better setup men and better middle relievers. The whole bullpen is better and easier to manage.

757690
07-22-2008, 10:10 PM
It appears there is consensus that the signing was bad, regardless of Cordero's performance.

Considering his performance has been less than steller, the signing becomes that much worse.

I do hope WJ is floating FC's name to several contending GM's and gauging the interest. Just free us of the salary constraints and grab a "B" type of prospect and he'll have done well. We can find another closer for a lot cheaper and invest the remainder of that 46 mil elsewhere.

I actually agree with you to a point about this. I would love it, if when Burton comes back, CoCo is traded. But I think they can get far more than a B prospect for him though. Look at what Gagne brought last year, and look at what Rausch just brought. CoCo is better than either of those two. His contract might bring his value down a bit, but it depends on the team acquiring him. The Dodgers would see this as a bargain when compared to what they are paying for Andruw Jones.

TheBigLebowski
07-22-2008, 10:23 PM
I actually agree with you to a point about this. I would love it, if when Burton comes back, CoCo is traded. But I think they can get far more than a B prospect for him though. Look at what Gagne brought last year, and look at what Rausch just brought. CoCo is better than either of those two. His contract might bring his value down a bit, but it depends on the team acquiring him. The Dodgers would see this as a bargain when compared to what they are paying for Andruw Jones.

The money being paid to Cordero is the only reason that I set the expectation for his potential return as a "B" prospect.

redsfanmia
07-22-2008, 10:27 PM
The money being paid to Cordero is the only reason that I set the expectation for his potential return as a "B" prospect.

I am pretty sure Cordero has a no trade clause thus making any conversation about trading him moot.

TheBigLebowski
07-22-2008, 10:29 PM
I am pretty sure Cordero has a no trade clause thus making any conversation about trading him moot.

Not necessarily. If he wants to play for a contender he may waive it. His pay would be the same. It's not like he's found GABP to be the most comfortable of stomping grounds.

757690
07-22-2008, 10:50 PM
Not necessarily. If he wants to play for a contender he may waive it. His pay would be the same. It's not like he's found GABP to be the most comfortable of stomping grounds.

That is correct. A no trade clause is just a negotiating device put in by agents. If the player gets traded with a no trade clause, he just asks for more money to accept the trade. Happens all the time.


Also BigL, your signature, which you just added, may be funny, but completely incorrect.

I am a big blackjack player, and I can tell you that the difference in batting Bako in that spot compared to Votto is more like hitting on 12 against a 3. You are not supposed to do it, but people do it all the time and win. The difference in their OBP in that situation is around .040 The odds against hitting a 12 against a 3 are around 52-48. Hitting on a 19 is an almost guaranteed loss. That would be like batting Cueto instead of Votto. I am surprised that RMR, being a stat guru, would be so off on that.

TheBigLebowski
07-22-2008, 11:14 PM
That is correct. A no trade clause is just a negotiating device put in by agents. If the player gets traded with a no trade clause, he just asks for more money to accept the trade. Happens all the time.


Also BigL, your signature, which you just added, may be funny, but completely incorrect.

I am a big blackjack player, and I can tell you that the difference in batting Bako in that spot compared to Votto is more like hitting on 12 against a 3. You are not supposed to do it, but people do it all the time and win. The difference in their OBP in that situation is around .040 The odds against hitting a 12 against a 3 are around 52-48. Hitting on a 19 is an almost guaranteed loss. That would be like batting Cueto instead of Votto. I am surprised that RMR, being a stat guru, would be so off on that.

Methinks you are applying the logic of that quote far too literally. The move Dusty made was wrong, even if the end result ended up positive. That's all he was trying to say.