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LouisvilleCARDS
07-17-2008, 10:47 PM
Blows another save. Another great investment by Reds ownership. And just like a month ago I was thinking this guy was doing a pretty decent, but unspectacular job. This seals the fact this is one horrible investment. But don't worry, he's only on contract for another dozen years or whatever it is. :rolleyes:

RiSK
07-17-2008, 11:29 PM
People must be pretty devistated by the loss tonight; opening a bunch of thread all about poor Coco.

Gripe here. (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70325)

Jack Burton
07-18-2008, 12:05 AM
Move the fences back, GABP is a joke.

Blue
07-18-2008, 12:29 AM
Move the fences back, GABP is a joke.

I've never understood this argument at all. If the fences are moved back, it would effect both teams equally. Sure, guys who don't have the juice to hit it out in a few other parks can hit them out here, but our players get the benefit of some of their balls which would be warning track flies in some other parks going for homers. I don't get it.

Griffey012
07-18-2008, 07:37 AM
I've never understood this argument at all. If the fences are moved back, it would effect both teams equally. Sure, guys who don't have the juice to hit it out in a few other parks can hit them out here, but our players get the benefit of some of their balls which would be warning track flies in some other parks going for homers. I don't get it.

One thing I think the fences do to give the advantage to other teams is that we play 81 games in a soap box and our hitters always have the short fences in the back of their mind, where other teams players aren't always trying to pop the ball 330 feet for a home run, you typically don't see our guys looking to drive the ball to right field in key situations, but instead yak one into the left field stands.

Redeye fly
07-18-2008, 08:07 AM
Blows another save. Another great investment by Reds ownership. And just like a month ago I was thinking this guy was doing a pretty decent, but unspectacular job. This seals the fact this is one horrible investment. But don't worry, he's only on contract for another dozen years or whatever it is. :rolleyes:

He's got a 4 year contract (I believe). He's a half year into the contract and could with his stuff conceivably be lights out from here on out this year, and for the 3 years to come, or at least 2 of those years.

So just over half way through his first year, and with about 80-85% of the time on his deal remaining, people already know Cordero is a "horrible investment".

Red in Atl
07-18-2008, 10:48 AM
Move the fences back, GABP is a joke.

Exactly. Neither Tatis nor Wright go deep in a normal ballpark. I've never understood why we want the smallest BP in the league.

Cincinnati is constantly one step up and two steps back. Baseball, football, doesn't matter. I grew up in Dayton. I have no choice but to root for my two teams, but all they do is let me down year after year after year. It absolutely sucks. Then you add in the pathetic Buckeyes (vs. SEC, and I live in Atlanta), and it makes me wonder why I even care about sports.

Can I just frakin' win something once?!?

markymark69
07-18-2008, 12:20 PM
Granted last night Cordero was not good. His worst outing as a Red by far.

I did some comparison to other NL closers. This won't tell the whole story, but to say that this was a bad signing is premature.

Cordero 4-2, 3.12 ERA (2.30 before last night) 19/24 in saves (79.2 %)
(Note the Reds won at least two of the games in which he recorded a blown save).

Billy Wagner (NYM) 0-1, 2.25 ERA 23/29 (79.3%)
Jose Valverde (HOU) 4-2 3.80, 24/29 (82.8)
Eric Gagne (MIL) 2-2, 7.33, 10/15 (66.7)
Salomon Torres (MIL) 4-2, 2.74, 15/18 (83.3)
Jason Isringhausen (STL) 1-5, 5.97, 11/18 (61.1)
Ryan Franklin (STL) 3-2, 3.56, 13/17 (76.5)
Kerry Wood (CHC) 4-2, 3.02, 24/29 (82.8)
Matt Capps (PIT) 2-3, 3.12, 17/22 (77.3)
Braves by committee 14/24 (58.3)
Brandon Lyon (AZ) 2-3, 2.43, 19/23 (82.6)
Takashi Saito (LAD) 3-3, 2.18, 17/20 (85.0)
Brian Wilson (SF) 0-2, 4.58, 25/27 (92.6)
Gregg (FLA) 6-4, 2.60, 20/26 (76.9)
Jon Rauch (WSH) 4-2, 2.85, 17/22 (77.2)
Trevor Hoffman (SD) 1-5, 5.08, 17/20 (85.0)
Brad Lidge (PHI) 2-0, 1.13, 20/20 (100) Pitching out of his mind this year.
Brian Fuentes (COL) 1-4, 3.32, 15/19 (78.9)
Manny Corpas (COL) 1-3, 5.24, 4/10 (40.0)

Rivera is the standard bearer 23/23
Others
Papelbon 28/32
K-Rod 38/41
Nathan 27/29

Chalk it up to a horrible outing (one). Overall, Cordero is in the upper half of closers in the NL.

Kingspoint
07-18-2008, 04:07 PM
Markymark. Thanks for posting that.

It shows that the entire National League is having trouble with their closers. You used to be able to expect the Top-12 closers to all be at 85% or above. Someone with Cordero's contract would be expected to be among that group. Danny Graves was always 80%, so what the REDS are getting from Cordero this year is exactly the same as Danny Graves.

With every new ballpark that's been built in the National League getting smaller and smaller, it's not surprising that it's become more difficult to maintain an 85% closing rate. Cordero has the stuff to get back there, but it's not going to be this year. Let him settle in as a RED and next year he'll get to that 85% rate.

Of those with 20 or more Saves last seaon 14 of them had a closing rate of 85% or better. Cordero was not among them. He was at 84%, so he has the potential to be there. He's having a bad season. A sub-80% closing rate is bad for a $48M pitcher. But, it was a signing that was necessary for this team. Beginning next year, they will be competing to win a World Series for a few years and Cordero is an anchor that has been needed for this team. Bill Bray isn't improving as fast as he should be. Coffey was a failure. Weathers was a stop-gap. So, Cordero and his 79-84% closing rate, regardless of the cost is a God-send to this pitching staff. Starters can't continue to pitch well only to lose a game in the 8th inning like it had been before. Cordero's arrival has solidified the 8th inning for the REDS, as is pointed out with their "now" 37-2 record after 7 innings.

Believe me, it bothered me last night. It totally ruined my evening.

Redeye fly
07-18-2008, 05:11 PM
Exactly. Neither Tatis nor Wright go deep in a normal ballpark. I've never understood why we want the smallest BP in the league.

Cincinnati is constantly one step up and two steps back. Baseball, football, doesn't matter. I grew up in Dayton. I have no choice but to root for my two teams, but all they do is let me down year after year after year. It absolutely sucks. Then you add in the pathetic Buckeyes (vs. SEC, and I live in Atlanta), and it makes me wonder why I even care about sports.

Can I just frakin' win something once?!?

I understand your frustrations living in SEC territory, but there are well over 100 college football teams that would love to be as "pathetic" as the Buckeyes.

gedred69
07-18-2008, 06:11 PM
I've defended the guy in the past, as he has made the bullpen much better, but much of that is by Cordero's presence pushing Burton and Weathers up in the innings scheme. The price paid though, one would expect a guy to be better than in the top 50%, more like, in a class of his own! I am guardedly glad he is here, but the loss last night was extremely hard to take. You got the ace of the hottest team in baseball rocked by Reds bats, only to blow two leads, especially in the ninth? What a blown opportunity to show credibility, as well as a blown save. My jury is still out.

Kingspoint
07-18-2008, 06:46 PM
Rotoworld's take without the biases either way:

The Reds are paying $46 million for a guy who is currently converting 79 percent of his save opportunities. Cordero's overall numbers are pretty good, but he has one job and he's simply not doing it very well. The Reds surely could have picked a better way to spend all of that money.

TC81190
07-18-2008, 07:25 PM
Rotoworld's take without the biases either way:

The Reds are paying $46 million for a guy who is currently converting 79 percent of his save opportunities. Cordero's overall numbers are pretty good, but he has one job and he's simply not doing it very well. The Reds surely could have picked a better way to spend all of that money.
Rotoworld is a fantasy baseball site. I like the news, but I'll get my analysis else where. As it said right there, he has good overall numbers. The save is a worthless stat. Coco will be fine.

PTI (pti)
07-18-2008, 07:29 PM
Coco will be fine.


Coco will be fine. The Reds, on the other hand, will not.


When will Reds ownership/management ever finally commit to being a true small-market franchise?


(hint: never)

Kingspoint
07-18-2008, 08:05 PM
Rotoworld is a fantasy baseball site. I like the news, but I'll get my analysis else where. As it said right there, he has good overall numbers. The save is a worthless stat. Coco will be fine.

The comments were from a real world perspective, not a fantasty perspective, and as closely as they pay attention to baseball, they have a lot more credibility towards analyzing a player than any of us here could ever have, simply because it's what they do for a living. I'm certain that you have a real job, as do most of us here.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-18-2008, 09:49 PM
A good bounce back night, I'll give credit where its due. Still, that loss last night hurts bad. Instead of 2 games under, we're still 4 games under. Throw in the Brewers last loss and we would have been .500 right now. But I guess if if's and but's are candy and nuts, everyday would be Christmas.