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View Full Version : Perspective.....Votto and Encarnacion were both born in 1983.



Kingspoint
07-18-2008, 09:18 PM
Edwin gets unfairly criticized, but when you think that he's the same age as Votto, then you'd appreciate how much more accomplished he is than Votto so far and at this point in their careers, Edwin is more advanced as both a hitter and a fielder.

Will M
07-18-2008, 09:27 PM
Edwin gets unfairly criticized, but when you think that he's the same age as Votto, then you'd appreciate how much more accomplished he is than Votto so far and at this point in their careers, Edwin is more advanced as both a hitter and a fielder.

their OPS+ are about the same and they both suck defensively.
they are twins!

Kingspoint
07-18-2008, 09:44 PM
Encarnacion does not suck defensively. Don't get hung up on a dozen of the 100's of plays that EE makes. His error totals are probably only about half a dozen more than the average 3rd Baseman at the most, but the plays he gets to and makes for outs are a couple dozen more than the average 3rd Baseman.
He's above average defensively.

Votto's OPS is below EE's. .840 to .802. That's a big difference.

RedsFanInBama
07-18-2008, 10:21 PM
Edwin has played really well this year I think. He started off just terribly but has slowly raised his offensive numbers as the season has moved along. I like him as a piece of this team's future. He's probably not going to be a superstar, but he looks like a solid ML player.

Will M
07-18-2008, 10:39 PM
EE has 15 errors at 3B. this is 3rd worst in baseball for third baseman. in 2007 he had 16 all year, only slightly below average. in 2006 he led the majors in errors for third basemen.

As for his great range this is a RedsZone urban legend. He is 3rd last in baseball for range factor at 3B. in 2007 he was only slightly beloew average here. in 2006 he was 3rd to last.

basically he does in fact suck defensively. he was awful in 2006. improved in 2007. regressed in 2008 and is now awful again.

Votto's OPS is .813 ( OPS+ 110 ).
EE's OPS is .842 ( OPS+ 116 ). In 2007 his numbers were .794 ( 101 ).

You can argue that EE is better offensively than Votto based on better OPS for 2008 but no one can convince me EE is good defensively. My eyes tell me differently and tha defensive stats back me up.

keeganbrick
07-18-2008, 10:50 PM
EE will win a gold glove before his career is over.

Kingspoint
07-18-2008, 11:21 PM
EE has 15 errors at 3B. this is 3rd worst in baseball for third baseman. in 2007 he had 16 all year, only slightly below average. in 2006 he led the majors in errors for third basemen.

As for his great range this is a RedsZone urban legend. He is 3rd last in baseball for range factor at 3B. in 2007 he was only slightly beloew average here. in 2006 he was 3rd to last.

basically he does in fact suck defensively. he was awful in 2006. improved in 2007. regressed in 2008 and is now awful again.

Votto's OPS is .813 ( OPS+ 110 ).
EE's OPS is .842 ( OPS+ 116 ). In 2007 his numbers were .794 ( 101 ).

You can argue that EE is better offensively than Votto based on better OPS for 2008 but no one can convince me EE is good defensively. My eyes tell me differently and tha defensive stats back me up.


Will, there just isn't any professional scout that would agree with you about the defense of Edwin Encarnacion. That is the truth. But, for you others like you who feel this way, and that's OK, this is the reason I began the post.

Blue
07-18-2008, 11:28 PM
He's got pretty darn good range, but makes too many errors. All things considered, he's probably a little below average right now, but he's got the tools to be above average.

However, you can stand to be a little below average defensively if you can rake. Save a May slump, he's done just that. He has an OPS of over 1.000 in June and July. Its all about pitch selection. I had pretty much given up on him after his May performance, but if he keeps hitting the way he has the past two months, we'll have at least one excellent hitter on the team next season.

Kingspoint
07-18-2008, 11:47 PM
He's got pretty darn good range, but makes too many errors. All things considered, he's probably a little below average right now, but he's got the tools to be above average.

However, you can stand to be a little below average defensively if you can rake. Save a May slump, he's done just that. He has an OPS of over 1.000 in June and July. Its all about pitch selection. I had pretty much given up on him after his May performance, but if he keeps hitting the way he has the past two months, we'll have at least one excellent hitter on the team next season.


Which is exactly what he did from June to October last season. It's not unexpected that a young player will have slow starts.

AFalcon10
07-19-2008, 12:08 AM
their OPS+ are about the same and they both suck defensively.
they are twins!

While EdE is a legit argument, I really have an issue saying that Votto sucks defensively.. he's had his troubles particularly early in the year , but he's come lightyears.. his learning curve is great and after a couple years he will be a solid 1b man.

As for Edwin.. I really think moving Kepp to 3rd, having Hairston play short, and Edwin platoon in the outfield (maybe giving Dunn and Griffey some more rest) would do wonders to increasing our defense which would in turn do wonders for the Cincinnati REDS. Controversial sure, but are we serious about improving our defense or do we just like to complain about it?

757690
07-19-2008, 12:10 AM
I like EE and think he should be a key part of the Reds future.

However, if is to be a key part, he needs to improve in two areas.

1) Defense. Yes, he has the ability to win a Gold Glove someday, but as it stands right now, he is a liability at 3rd. Forget all the stats like range factor and others, anyone who watches the Reds knows that EE makes too many errors. You can blame them on youth and inexperience, but you can't take them away. His high errors hurt the team. He needs to cut down on his errors if the Reds are to be competitive with him at third.

The fact that most, of not all of his errors come on routine plays, mostly lazy throws to first when he has plenty of time, it is safe to reason that he can cut those down. However, if he can't and doesn't, he needs to be moved, either to another position or another team.

2) He needs to learn how to hit to all fields. Right now EE is one of the best pull hitters in the league. But that is all that he can do. When he hits the ball the other way, it usually is a pop up or weak grounder. If he doesn't learn to hit the other way, teams will eventually how to pitch to him, and his numbers will go down. The same thing happened to Willie Greene, Wily Mo Pena, and countless other players with short careers.

keeganbrick
07-19-2008, 04:51 AM
While EdE is a legit argument, I really have an issue saying that Votto sucks defensively.. he's had his troubles particularly early in the year , but he's come lightyears.. his learning curve is great and after a couple years he will be a solid 1b man.

As for Edwin.. I really think moving Kepp to 3rd, having Hairston play short, and Edwin platoon in the outfield (maybe giving Dunn and Griffey some more rest) would do wonders to increasing our defense which would in turn do wonders for the Cincinnati REDS. Controversial sure, but are we serious about improving our defense or do we just like to complain about it?

That would drastically make this defense worse. EE is just fine at 3rd base. Kepp has no where near the arm to play third base and if you add Hairston to SS you would easily have the worst left side of the infield in the majors. Trade Griffey for nothing and have Hairston in center, Bruce in right, Kepp at short until the year is over...but it prolly isnt going to happen.

improbus
07-19-2008, 08:05 AM
EE will win a gold glove before his career is over.

Maybe in the International League...

Root Down
07-19-2008, 10:13 AM
Votto's defense has gotten dramatically better of late. They are both young players, and I for one am glad to have both.

ChatterRed
07-19-2008, 10:34 AM
In a couple of years from now, when this team has overcome it's youthful mistakes, and payroll is still reasonable, and these young guys are then in their prime, everyone will be glad we have EE, Votto, Bruce and others.

AFalcon10
07-19-2008, 12:57 PM
That would drastically make this defense worse. EE is just fine at 3rd base. Kepp has no where near the arm to play third base and if you add Hairston to SS you would easily have the worst left side of the infield in the majors. Trade Griffey for nothing and have Hairston in center, Bruce in right, Kepp at short until the year is over...but it prolly isnt going to happen.

From what I have seen in the limited playing time they have gotten at these positions... Hairston plays a better SS in the field than Kepp and Kepp plays a better 3b than Encarnacion and it is my guess that Encarnacion plays a better OF than dunn and griffey.. so i do think it would drastically improve the defense...