Turning Point?

[Jefferson24]

I believe tomorrow's game will be the turning point in the season. The Reds win, they go on to finish over .500 and show great promise for the future. They lose and they finish well below .500 and show mere glimpses of hope for the future. Anyone else feel the same way?

It just feels like a turning point to me.

[Griffey012]

Take it back, take it back now! The Reds lose everytime we think they are turning the corner. So hopefully the corner is still a ways up the road.

[mroby85]

I just keep looking back to thursday night, that was such a tough loss, and i'm trying but i can't quit thinking about possibly being able to go for a 4 game sweep against the mets tomorrow. It couldve been an amazing start to the 2nd half, all i wanted comin in was a split, and i'll still take that, but a chance at a sweep wouldve been unreal.

[Jefferson24]

To come back to win 3 straight after the pathetic loss would be most impressive. Probably more so than the sweep (most probably figured the Reds to just fold). The game tomorrow will be tough, it will be a real measure of this team.

[757690]

Regardless of the outcome of tomorrows game, I am optimistic about the Reds chances to be competitive during the second half. Their ability to bounce back after the tough loss on Thurs, to win back to back against the hottest team in the majors is a very good sign.

Even better signs:

Arroyo is throwing the ball like he did in 2006.
Fogg is pitching like a decent fifth starter.
Bailey looked decent in is first start back.
Lincoln is looking like a solid set up guy.
The offense has scored 20 runs in three games - without Hairston leading off.
Bruce looks like he has settled in and should put up solid numbers the rest of the season.
Griffey is starting to hit the ball better.

[Jefferson24]

Arroyo is throwing the ball like he did in 2006.
Fogg is pitching like a decent fifth starter.
Bailey looked decent in is first start back.
Lincoln is looking like a solid set up guy.


I'm happy about these things too. I want to keep Arroyo. We trade him and he'll turn into another Lohse. This team has some good tools.

[Lockdwn11]

I believe tomorrow's game will be the turning point in the season. The Reds win, they go on to finish over .500 and show great promise for the future. They lose and they finish well below .500 and show mere glimpses of hope for the future. Anyone else feel the same way?

It just feels like a turning point to me.

You can tell all that from one game? Lets face it every game from here on out is just as important as tomorows game.

[Jefferson24]

You can tell all that from one game? Lets face it every game from here on out is just as important as tomorows game.

Some games are more important than others. They set momentum, confidence, and opinion. I believe tomorrow game Is one of those games.

[Nuxhall41]

It just feels like a turning point to me.

People never learn. :beerme:

[walk-off]

Common sense tells me not to believe it, but for some reason I still tune in every night. I guess it stems from seeing Cubs fans waving signs that say "It's going to happen!" This could be proof it will still will not happen and that some movement will still take place within the NL Central...

[redsfanmia]

Playing better now is the worst thing that can happen and will raise peoples hopes and put the Reds in non-seller mode. The Reds need to punt this season and try to win next year and beyond.

[ChatterRed]

I tune in every night too. The reason? It's been a long time since the Reds went on a winning streak or tear. I keep hoping/expecting it to happen.

I think they have no chance of catching the wild card. But I do think they have a chance of finishing at .500 or better and showing promise for next season.

[reds1869]

Playing better now is the worst thing that can happen and will raise peoples hopes and put the Reds in non-seller mode. The Reds need to punt this season and try to win next year and beyond.

I have to think WJ is smarter than that. If the right offer comes along he will take it. As far as being in seller mode, you have to have something people want to buy first.

[ChatterRed]

I have to think WJ is smarter than that. If the right offer comes along he will take it. As far as being in seller mode, you have to have something people want to buy first.


Exactly. There are so many people on this board that just assume the Reds can get great return in a trade for Junior or Dunn or Arroyo. Junior is a seriously declined aging HOFer. Dunn is going to be a free agent and is a defensive liability. Arroyo carries a hefty contract next year.

[TheBigLebowski]

I've seen this show too many times in the past couple of years.

Today's game is one we have every reason to win. We're playing well - pitching, hitting and defense have been pretty good this series. We've got our best pitcher on the hill vs. their worst. We're at home. Still, this is the Reds we're talking about. I have this gigantic feeling in my stomach that we're going to go out and lay an ostrich-sized egg on that field today and bring all the fans' expectations right back where they belong.

[texasdave]

I'd rather the team won 85 and not really be in it, as opposed to winning 72 and not really being in it. But that's just me. And I agree with OBM. I think Cincinnati should win today; but I have this ominous feeling that a two-out error or another brain-dead baserunning fiasco is gonna pop up and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory again.

PS Anyone out there proud of me for not positioning Dusty as the root cause of all Reds' losses?

[Jefferson24]

This game is a good example of why the Reds should start selling. A turning point game and they can't get it done. This group of guys are not winners and they do not know what winning is like nor how how to play the game to win on a regular basis. It's time to get some new players.

[Nuxhall41]

Look at the last three losses:

- You had Baker's stupidity Sunday in Milwaukee.
- Cordero's implosion
- Edwin's stupidity in the 10th today

They should currently be two games over .500 and right in the thick of things.

[FlightRick]

This game is a good example of why the Reds should start selling. A turning point game and they can't get it done. This group of guys are not winners and they do not know what winning is like nor how how to play the game to win on a regular basis. It's time to get some new players.

Let's all head down to Wal*Mart and go shopping, then, if it's that simple! Nee haw!

And you calling it a "turning point game" doesn't make it so. Most would contend that no single game makes or breaks a season, and no single game reveals a team's true character.

I look at it this way: this whole homestand can be viewed as a "Key Stretch" (if not, precisely, a "turning point"). This whole group of games will tell a story that you simply can't get out of this afternoon's display (unless you've got an over-active imaginiation).

What are those stories going to be? I dunno, yet. If you want to be a pessimist, Cordero could be one story, or worrying about Volquez getting fatigued or regressing to the norm might amuse you. If you want to be an optimist, then consider that we just split four games with the hottest team in baseball, that we have six games upcoming against scrubby teams, that our bats (even in our two losses) seemed to come alive, and that if we can finish strong on this homestand we will have done it with both our pitching ace and our stunningly-productive lead-off hitter on the DL.

We finish this homestand around .500 (so 4 or 5 wins this week are necessary), and who the hell cares about an individual game outcome? We'll have taken care of business effectively over a telling 10 game stretch, we'll be getting both Harang and Hairston back (and Burton, too), and we'll be hitting the road with our full compliment of players, and with more beatable teams in front of us thoughout the month of August.

I can deal with that.


Rick

[Blue]

- Edwin's stupidity in the 10th today

That was a physical error, not a mental one. The mental error was Phillips standing around for a couple seconds after Edwin fielded the ball. Would the physical error have occurred if not for the mental error? I don't know, but it didn't make it any less unlikely.

[ChatterRed]

All I know is that they should have swept the Mets.

[levydl]

This game is a good example of why the Reds should start selling. A turning point game and they can't get it done. This group of guys are not winners and they do not know what winning is like nor how how to play the game to win on a regular basis. It's time to get some new players.

There are 62 games left in the season.

[Nuxhall41]

That was a physical error, not a mental one. The mental error was Phillips standing around for a couple seconds after Edwin fielded the ball. Would the physical error have occurred if not for the mental error? I don't know, but it didn't make it any less unlikely.

Phillips wasn't simply standing around for a few seconds, the infield was playing in(perhaps it appeared that way in slow motion). The entire play didn't take more than a few seconds. Also, since you insist on drawing a rather arbitrary distinction, I suppose we can waste time discussing the mind/body connection. Other than, I don't know, a spasm or a reflex, can your arm make a movement or throw the ball unless your mind directs it to do so? So, mentally, to which spot did Edwin's mind direct his arm to throw the ball - the spot 5 yards from the bag where Phillips was initially or to the bag where the ball needed to go? You know, when someone steals a base and the catcher unleashes the ball, he must throw to a spot as well. The second baseman isn't already standing on the bag. It did take Phillips more time to get to the bag considering the infield was playing in, but for what reason would you throw the ball to his initial spot five yards from the bag when you're attempting to turn two? That is stupidity. That is a mental error. It's not as though he attempted to lead Phillips to the bag with the ball but it simply sailed on him. He saw Phillips in an unusual spot because of the defensive positioning and for some unknown reason threw to that spot when attempting to turn two.

[Blue]

Phillips wasn't simply standing around for a few seconds, the infield was playing in(perhaps it appeared that way in slow motion). The entire play didn't take more than a few seconds. Also, since you insist on drawing a rather arbitrary distinction, I suppose we can waste time discussing the mind/body connection. Other than, I don't know, a spasm or a reflex, can your arm make a movement or throw the ball unless your mind directs it to do so? So, mentally, to which spot did Edwin's mind direct his arm to throw the ball - the spot 5 yards from the bag where Phillips was initially or to the bag where the ball needed to go? You know, when someone steals a base and the catcher unleashes the ball, he must throw to a spot as well. The second baseman isn't already standing on the bag. It did take Phillips more time to get to the bag considering the infield was playing in, but for what reason would you throw the ball to his initial spot five yards from the bag when you're attempting to turn two? That is stupidity. That is a mental error. It's not as though he attempted to lead Phillips to the bag with the ball but it simply sailed on him. He saw Phillips in an unusual spot because of the defensive positioning and for some unknown reason threw to that spot when attempting to turn two.

I think the problem was he had to double clutch on the throw.

[texasdave]

And you calling it a "turning point game" doesn't make it so.

And you saying it is not a "turning point game" does not make it not so.


Most would contend that no single game makes or breaks a season, and no single game reveals a team's true character.

Perhaps. But I have often heard players and managers alike call individual games and individual series as crucial. And I have often heard how important it is to beat the teams you are chasing because those games are actually two-game swings in the standings.


I look at it this way: this whole homestand can be viewed as a "Key Stretch" (if not, precisely, a "turning point"). This whole group of games will tell a story that you simply can't get out of this afternoon's display (unless you've got an over-active imaginiation).

Wouldn't a "key stretch" be made up of a series of "key games"?


What are those stories going to be? I dunno, yet. If you want to be a pessimist, Cordero could be one story, or worrying about Volquez getting fatigued or regressing to the norm might amuse you. If you want to be an optimist, then consider that we just split four games with the hottest team in baseball, that we have six games upcoming against scrubby teams, that our bats (even in our two losses) seemed to come alive, and that if we can finish strong on this homestand we will have done it with both our pitching ace and our stunningly-productive lead-off hitter on the DL.

And a realist might say that what very possibly, maybe even probably, should have been a four-game sweep of a team the Reds are chasing deflated into a series split.


We finish this homestand around .500 (so 4 or 5 wins this week are necessary), and who the hell cares about an individual game outcome? We'll have taken care of business effectively over a telling 10 game stretch.

And if business had been effectively taken care of over the weekend the Reds would already be at .500, with an additional week of the homestand left to push themselves a couple games over that mark.


we'll be getting both Harang and Hairston back (and Burton, too), and we'll be hitting the road with our full compliment of players, and with more beatable teams in front of us thoughout the month of August.

I can deal with that.

But wouldn't it be easier to deal with if the Reds were at .500 today instead of 4 games under? You don't even need to head down to Wal*Mart to figure out the answer to that question.

[Jefferson24]

Thanks texasdave. Good responses. I wanted to expand a little on the need for new players and it not being as easy as going down to the Walmart. I actually thought the local Walmart had some very reasonably priced player that should be considered.

I think the Reds should make some deals and shake things up. I think there is a tendency to value what you have too much and refuse deal because your not getting enough in return. The problem is what you have isn't cutting it and year after year they just turn in losing season after losing season. Sometimes it's better to take a chance, maybe do a deal that isn't quite as good as you had hoped for. You never know how things might turn out. I think there are two types of teams; ones that are winners and all the rest. The Reds right now are all the rest and have been for many years. Take some chances, make some deals, at least try something. If it doesn't work work you still end up right where you are now, a losing team. I for one don't think the Reds are a player or two away. I think it's time for a larger scale overhaul. Unfortunately the more I watch this team the more I believe that.

If anything good has come from the recent games maybe it is clear that the Reds will not contend this year. That being the case they should not hesitate to make some moves and build for the future instead of trying to win this these guys in the present. It should be an interesting 10 days.