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WVRedsFan
07-20-2008, 01:42 AM
Through all of this Hall of Fame weekend, I have to think that Joey Jay is underappreciated. I changed my avatar this week mainly because I think he is the forgotten man in all of this. Jay made up the pitching staff that actually won a National League pennant and was part of a starting staff that was fantasic in its prime. Furthermore, Jim O'Toole, Bob Purkey, and Jim Maloney, the other three members of that four-man rotation (Jay Hook was in there too, but he's wasn't much of a factor), had already been in the Hall, and I had to ask why it took so long for Jay to be included.

All Jay did was win 21 games, the first Reds player to do that in eons before 1961, and repeat it again in the near miss season of 1962. How many 20-game winners have we had since? Try 6 in 47 years (Purkey, Maloney, Sammy Ellis, Tom Browning, Jim Merrit, and Danny Jackson--last in 1988).

It took too long. So here's to Joey Jay. Finally in the hall of fame!

Homer Bailey
07-20-2008, 01:45 AM
I'm a little too young I guess. I thought this was going to be a Votto/Bruce thread.

Ron Madden
07-20-2008, 01:47 AM
Joey Jay was the Winning Pitcher in the first Reds game I ever attended.

I was nine years old and will never forget it.

:)

RedlegJake
07-20-2008, 01:53 AM
I'm a little too young I guess. I thought this was going to be a Votto/Bruce thread.

Yeah. My dad was all about Derringer and Walters and Rixey and Blackwell. Guys I never saw but sure heard about a lot. For me its Joey Jay, and O'Toole, Purkey, and Maloney and Sammy Ellis, Nuxie, and McCool. Bill Henry, and the submariner Ted Abernathy. My sons roll their eyes when I go on about Maloney or how hard Billy McCool threw. They're into Seaver and Soto. Now my grandsons talk about Cueto and Volquez (its neat to see how exciterd they get when Cueto or Volquez pitch and strike guys out - first time they've really had Reds pitchers who can dominate). One of the things I love about baseball is the generational flow through age groups.

WVRedsFan
07-20-2008, 01:54 AM
I'm a little too young I guess. I thought this was going to be a Votto/Bruce thread.

Hang in there with us old fogeys, Homer. I might have been 11 when Joey pitched (I'm slightly older than Ron Madden apparently), but I remember it like it was yesterday. He was a hero to those who followed those amazing 1961 Cincinnati Reds. O'Toole mentioned the Dodgers series where he, Jay, and Purkey just dominated the Dodgers in his interview during the ceremony, and it was true. Back in those days, the Dodgers were our main rival. We were fighting them for first place (along with SF) for the years 1961-1964. We finished 4 games ahead of them in 1961 and were 3 games behind them in 1962. The next year we faltered somewhat, but Jay was the key to a lot of the success. It just took too long to get him in the hall of fame.

Ron Madden
07-20-2008, 02:01 AM
Hang in there with us old fogeys, Homer. I might have been 11 when Joey pitched (I'm slightly older than Ron Madden apparently), but I remember it like it was yesterday. He was a hero to those who followed those amazing 1961 Cincinnati Reds. O'Toole mentioned the Dodgers series where he, Jay, and Purkey just dominated the Dodgers in his interview during the ceremony, and it was true. Back in those days, the Dodgers were our main rival. We were fighting them for first place (along with SF) for the years 1961-1964. We finished 4 games ahead of them in 1961 and were 3 games behind them in 1962. The next year we faltered somewhat, but Jay was the key to a lot of the success. It just took too long to get him in the hall of fame.

In my first ever game at Crosley Field 1963, Joey Jay and the Reds beat Sandy Koufax and the Dodgers 1-0.

Have I ever mentioned the fact that I hate the Dodgers?

:)

WVRedsFan
07-20-2008, 02:19 AM
In my first ever game at Crosley Field 1963, Joey Jay and the Reds beat Sandy Koufax and the Dodgers 1-0.

Have I ever mentioned the fact that I hate the Dodgers?

:)

Two of us, but we must be old timers. The kids will never understand. :)

Mario-Rijo
07-20-2008, 04:57 AM
I am not old enough to have seen him, but I'll play a little devils advocate. I would ask this question, why would 2 good seasons make him a Reds HOF? I think Aaron Harang has easily had a better Reds career but I don't know that I would consider him a Reds HOF just yet. Granted a few trips to the playoffs with him leading the way might help but I wouldn't say that would put him over.

I mean JJ did help pitch us to a WS appearance and had 2 AS selections but DNP in them and didn't really shine accept 2 really good regular seasons from a W/L stand point mostly. The fact Harang hasn't had those opportunities has nothing to do with him but the team he is surrounded with. But maybe I'm wrong perhaps Harang is a Reds HOF shoe-in.

redsmetz
07-20-2008, 09:19 AM
All Jay did was win 21 games, the first Reds player to do that in eons before 1961, and repeat it again in the near miss season of 1962. How many 20-game winners have we had since? Try 6 in 47 years (Purkey, Maloney, Sammy Ellis, Tom Browning, Jim Merrit, and Danny Jackson--last in 1988).

It took too long. So here's to Joey Jay. Finally in the hall of fame!

And Jay is one of only seven Reds pitchers who have had two or more 20 win seasons while pitching for the Reds.

Jim Maloney
Bucky Walters
Paul Derringer
Pete Donohue
Eppa Rixey
Noodles Hahn

Everyone is right that this honor is long, long past due. The shame this morning is that the Enquirer saw fit to only write about Barry Larkin. No quotes or stories from Jay or Geronimo.

[Note: let me know if I've overlooked anyone on the two or more list]

Spitball
07-20-2008, 09:28 AM
Joey Jay was the first product of the Little League program to make the major leaugues, and yet he was very critical of the organization's concept.

I can't remember the Braves' GM, maybe Frank Lane, but he said the two worst trades he ever made were the ones where he traded away Joey Jay and the one in which he reaquired Joey Jay.

RichRed
07-20-2008, 10:00 AM
I wasn't around for the '61 pennant (born in '69), but I've read Jim Brosnan's Pennant Race so many times, I feel like I was there. I've always felt that whole team has been underappreciated. I think the emergence of the Big Red Machine and that team's dominance sort of made some fans forget that there were good Reds teams before the 70s. In addition, the simple passage of time has relegated the '61 guys to some semblance of obscurity. Maybe the fact that they got swept by the Yankees has something to do with it too.

Anyway, it's nice to see Joey Jay get the recognition.

westofyou
07-20-2008, 10:55 AM
I am not old enough to have seen him, but I'll play a little devils advocate. I would ask this question, why would 2 good seasons make him a Reds HOF?

Horrible HOF selection, who's next?

Bumpus Jones?

Pete Schnieder?

Chick Hafey?


JOEY JAY

CINCINNATI REDS

YEAR TEAM AGE W L PCT G GS CG SV GF IP H R ER BB SO ERA RSAA
1961 Reds 25 21 10 .677 34 34 14 0 0 247 217 102 97 92 157 3.53 17
1962 Reds 26 21 14 .600 39 37 16 0 1 273 269 121 114 100 155 3.76 7
1963 Reds 27 7 18 .280 30 22 4 1 5 170 172 91 81 73 116 4.29 -16
1964 Reds 28 11 11 .500 34 23 10 2 7 183 167 75 69 36 134 3.39 4
1965 Reds 29 9 8 .529 37 24 4 1 8 156 150 83 73 63 102 4.21 -9
1966 Reds 30 6 2 .750 12 10 1 0 0 73.2 78 33 32 23 44 3.91 3
TOTALS 75 63 .543 186 150 49 4 21 1102.2 1053 505 466 387 708 3.80 6
LG AVERAGE 61 61 .500 41 5 1102.2 1072 520 455 370 697 3.71 0

YEAR TEAM HR H/9 BR/9 SO/9 BB/9 SO/BB SHO WP IBB HBP BFP BK NW NL
1961 Reds 25 7.91 11.44 5.72 3.35 1.71 4 9 1 5 1032 0 18 13
1962 Reds 26 8.87 12.30 5.11 3.30 1.55 4 7 5 4 1165 2 18 17
1963 Reds 19 9.11 13.13 6.14 3.86 1.59 1 8 2 3 733 0 10 15
1964 Reds 17 8.21 10.13 6.59 1.77 3.72 0 3 6 3 737 0 12 10
1965 Reds 21 8.65 12.52 5.88 3.63 1.62 1 8 0 4 673 0 8 9
1966 Reds 8 9.53 12.71 5.38 2.81 1.91 1 3 1 3 313 0 4 4
TOTALS 116 8.59 11.93 5.78 3.16 1.83 11 38 15 22 4653 2 70 68
LG AVERAGE 105 8.75 11.99 5.69 3.02 1.88 8 39 41 27 4679 4

RFS62
07-20-2008, 10:58 AM
.

WVRedsFan
07-20-2008, 11:19 AM
I wasn't around for the '61 pennant (born in '69), but I've read Jim Brosnan's Pennant Race so many times, I feel like I was there. I've always felt that whole team has been underappreciated. I think the emergence of the Big Red Machine and that team's dominance sort of made some fans forget that there were good Reds teams before the 70s. In addition, the simple passage of time has relegated the '61 guys to some semblance of obscurity. Maybe the fact that they got swept by the Yankees has something to do with it too.

Anyway, it's nice to see Joey Jay get the recognition.

Correction :)...

The Reds did win one game and weren't swept. Jay was the winner in a complete game. Purkey should also have won one of those games, but...

It was a good series, though it happened while I was still in elementary school :). The Reds were so close.

Jay had a fair year in 1963, even though he went 7-18, his ERA was passable and the whole team was in a funk that year (86-76 IIRC), but Robinson hit about .250 and just couldn't get untracked (Griffey isn't the first to have a bad year) and that led to the team saying he was "an old 30" when he was traded.

He was 11-11 in 1964, but something happened to him and I cannot remember what, that led to him being traded. He was living in Spencer, WV during that time, and was into investments in natural gas, but he just left the Reds, retired early, and disappeared. I've often wo ndered what he did with the rest of his life.

RedlegJake
07-20-2008, 11:24 AM
The Reds HoF has three criteria in reality whether they are the criteria they list for inclusion:

1 - greatness on the field
2 - key contributors to pennant seasons
3 - fan popularity

Jay had two great seasons, contributed significantly to a pennant, and was a very popular player - even after he lost effectiveness he was a fan favorite. The Reds' Hall isn't as exclusive as Cooperstown and isn't meant to be. It has been criticized quite often for being too inclusive.

westofyou
07-20-2008, 11:38 AM
The Reds' Hall isn't as exclusive as Cooperstown and isn't meant to be.

Of course it's not, that's why Harry Craft and Wayne Granger are in it now... two guys that aren't at all known by 99% of the Reds fan base, hence stripping the word Fame right off the title of the place IMO.

RichRed
07-20-2008, 11:46 AM
Correction :)...

The Reds did win one game and weren't swept. Jay was the winner in a complete game. Purkey should also have won one of those games, but...


Whoops, I knew better than that. I must be confusing it with the Reds' sweep of the Yankees in '76. ;)

WVRedsFan
07-20-2008, 12:58 PM
Whoops, I knew better than that. I must be confusing it with the Reds' sweep of the Yankees in '76. ;)

Which was the supreme payback for the 1961 Reds. I was hoping we would sweep the series in NY in June for double payback.

Big Klu
07-20-2008, 05:50 PM
Joey Jay was the first product of the Little League program to make the major leaugues, and yet he was very critical of the organization's concept.

I can't remember the Braves' GM, maybe Frank Lane, but he said the two worst trades he ever made were the ones where he traded away Joey Jay and the one in which he reaquired Joey Jay.

What are Jay's issues with Little League? (I'm not saying I disagree with him--on the contrary, if his criticisms are valid, I would could easily find myself agreeing with him.)

I don't think Frank Lane was ever GM of the Braves. He was GM of the White Sox (1948-55), Cardinals (1955-57), Indians (1957-61), Athletics (1961), the Chicago Packers of the NBA (1962), and Brewers (1970-72).

(The Chicago Packers would later become the Washington Bullets/Wizards.)

cumberlandreds
07-21-2008, 02:13 PM
Two of us, but we must be old timers. The kids will never understand. :)

Three of us. Although mine didn't come along until the 70's when I was growing up.

RANDY IN INDY
07-21-2008, 02:16 PM
The Reds HoF has three criteria in reality whether they are the criteria they list for inclusion:

1 - greatness on the field
2 - key contributors to pennant seasons
3 - fan popularity

Jay had two great seasons, contributed significantly to a pennant, and was a very popular player - even after he lost effectiveness he was a fan favorite. The Reds' Hall isn't as exclusive as Cooperstown and isn't meant to be. It has been criticized quite often for being too inclusive.
:thumbup:

Spitball
07-21-2008, 05:27 PM
What are Jay's issues with Little League? (I'm not saying I disagree with him--on the contrary, if his criticisms are valid, I would could easily find myself agreeing with him.)

Early in his professional career, Jay wrote an article entitled "Don't Trap Your Son in Little League Madness." I'm not certain of its exact content, but I do remember he was scarred by his experience. The parents of opposing teams in his hometown organized a movement to have him banned from Little League play because he was too large...and I assume too good. His main gripe was directed at stupid adult behavior.



I don't think Frank Lane was ever GM of the Braves. He was GM of the White Sox (1948-55), Cardinals (1955-57), Indians (1957-61), Athletics (1961), the Chicago Packers of the NBA (1962), and Brewers (1970-72).

(The Chicago Packers would later become the Washington Bullets/Wizards.)

Right, it was probably John McHale or possibly Paul Richards.

Big Klu
07-21-2008, 11:23 PM
Early in his professional career, Jay wrote an article entitled "Don't Trap Your Son in Little League Madness." I'm not certain of its exact content, but I do remember he was scarred by his experience. The parents of opposing teams in his hometown organized a movement to have him banned from Little League play because he was too large...and I assume too good. His main gripe was directed at stupid adult behavior.

Well, based on what I have seen, I would have to agree with a lot of that.

WVRedsFan
07-21-2008, 11:42 PM
I was pleased tonight that Marty and Thom kept talking about what a breath of fresh air Joey Jay was and how fascinating he was and all that. He and Geronimo just got ignored this weekend.

BTW, I remember that article. I was a kid, but my Dad pointed out to me how right JJ was on this. My Dad hated Little League because of the parents.