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View Full Version : How good has EE been and how good can he be?



dougdirt
07-20-2008, 04:29 PM
This year Edwin, May not counting, may be the best third baseman in baseball not named Chipper Jones. His May was attrocious (.475 OPS), but outside of that one bad month he has absolutely obliterated the baseball.

Through his first 3 at bats today, he has put up this line not including May:

.306/.401/.611 with 30 walks and 31 strikeouts in 252 PA.
Of course you can't discount May, but for 3 of the 4 months so far this year the Reds have had arguably the second best hitting 3B in baseball.

Looking forward, just how good do you think Edwin could be?

Edit: Also wanted to note, outside of May he also has 30 walks and 31 strikeouts.

nate
07-20-2008, 04:36 PM
I think his floor is league average.

His ceiling might be Mike Schmidt lite.

His mezzanine might be Ron Cey.

RedsManRick
07-20-2008, 04:47 PM
Excluding May would be unfair. He's both the guy from May and the guy from July. But as you point out, that's still pretty darn good.

Among NL 3B with 200+ PA, EE is 5th in OPS (and RC27) behind Jones, Wright, Ramirez, and Glaus. Not too shabby.

FWIW, PECOTA's weighted mean projection for EE this year was .281/.352/.483. He's currently sitting at .266/.352/.503.

What's great about that line is that he's matching his OBP and 20 points ahead of his SLG projection while hitting 15 points below on the batting average. Any increase in his BA is likely to buoy his OBP and SLG even further. His Iso numbers are moving from good to great territory and that's very positive development from a 25 year old.

nate
07-20-2008, 04:50 PM
Yep, he's also passed his HR career high with his 17th today. Maybe he sniffs 30 this year.

mth123
07-20-2008, 04:51 PM
Jocketty named EE an untouchable. Perhaps he sees another step forward. The numbers in RMR's post above would imply the same. I admit that I've wanted the Reds to deal EE to acquire help elsewhere simply because I see alternatives on the way, but maybe that next step that EE appears poised to take fills the bill for the RH power bat the team seems to need.

Ltlabner
07-20-2008, 04:57 PM
# YEAR NAME AGE PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAR RAP
1. 2008 Chipper Jones 36 366 .365 .470 .607 55.5 52.6 40.1
2. 2008 David Wright 25 445 .307 .384 .516 33.7 37.1 19.3
3. 2008 Troy Glaus 31 403 .309 .380 .507 26.1 34.5 18.5
4. 2008 Aramis Ramirez 30 394 .299 .378 .503 23.6 28.2 12.7
5. 2008 E. Encarnacion 25 350 .289 .351 .493 16.9 22.2 7.7
6. 2008 Jorge Cantu 26 409 .283 .337 .496 23.0 23.3 5.1

So you've got a 25 year old third baseman who's producing well above what a scrub/replacement guy (VORP and RAR) would give you. But he's getting paid like a scrub/replacement guy IIRC. At the very least he isn't earning anything near big dollars yet. Heck, he's not all that far off of what Aramis Ramirez has put up thus far and he certinally isn't earning Ramirez money.

Compared to his fellow third-sackers the runs he produces (Runs Above Position) is relativley low but Chipper is just plain sick and if I understand how RAP is calculated he might be squewing the results of everyone else.

But the bottom line is you've got an above average stick (who still has room for development & growth) at a below average price.

In my mind, the biggest thing holding EE back is EE and his propensity for slow starts. I think he puts waaayyyy to much pressure on himself instead of just doing his thing and once the pressing starts forget it.

Big Klu
07-20-2008, 06:54 PM
I think his floor is league average.

His ceiling might be Mike Schmidt lite.

His mezzanine might be Ron Cey.

A year or two ago, I said Buddy Bell. I'll stick with that.

*BaseClogger*
07-20-2008, 07:09 PM
A year or two ago, I said Buddy Bell. I'll stick with that.

Interesting...


Year Age OPS+

EE
2005 22 93
2006 23 108
2007 24 101
2008 25 117

Bell
1974 22 95
1975 23 101
1976 24 106
1977 25 115
1978 26 103
1979 27 109
1980 28 142
1981 29 134
1982 30 126
1983 31 107
1984 32 129

Encarnacion Similar Batters

1. Jorge Cantu (961)
2. Ryan Zimmerman (958)
3. Gene Green (947)
4. Benny Agbayani (943)
5. B.J. Upton (942)
6. Chris Brown (940)
7. Kelly Johnson (939)
8. Ryan Church (939)
9. Mark Teahen (938)
10.Matt LeCroy (937)

Big Klu
07-20-2008, 07:14 PM
Wow! That's closer than I thought! I had no statistical analysis for my prediction--it was just based on good old-fashioned observation.

Rojo
07-20-2008, 07:15 PM
I think he's a fine left-fielder.

princeton
07-20-2008, 07:32 PM
he's the kind of player that gets managers and GMs fired

fearofpopvol1
07-20-2008, 07:33 PM
His errors/throws should not be overlooked amidst all this praise...

dougdirt
07-20-2008, 07:36 PM
His errors/throws should not be overlooked amidst all this praise...

His defense is rough, but better than it has been. I still blame BP for Edwin's error today. If he covers the bag rather than walking toward 3B when Edwin plays the ball, Edwin doesn't double clutch his throw out of confusion of his 2B not covering 2B at all and there isn't any confusion.

edabbs44
07-20-2008, 07:52 PM
He might be the long-term fill in for Dunn (i.e. 2 years from now) with Frazier taking his spot.

Or, Votto gets dealt and he plays first.

dougdirt
07-20-2008, 07:53 PM
He might be the long-term fill in for Dunn (i.e. 2 years from now) with Frazier taking his spot.

Or, Votto gets dealt and he plays first.

Or Votto could move to LF, but I like Votto at first.

Joseph
07-20-2008, 07:58 PM
Wow! That's closer than I thought! I had no statistical analysis for my prediction--it was just based on good old-fashioned observation.

Careful now, thats dangerous talk.

WVRedsFan
07-20-2008, 08:23 PM
I agree on the Buddy Bell comparison. If he learns to use his head when making a throw. My general feeling is you are seeing what you will get from EdE for the forseeable future. If you like that, then you have your answer.

Big Klu
07-20-2008, 08:29 PM
I agree on the Buddy Bell comparison. If he learns to use his head when making a throw. My general feeling is you are seeing what you will get from EdE for the forseeable future. If you like that, then you have your answer.

Obviously, I was comparing Encarnacion to Bell offensively. The is no comparison between them defensively. Edwin has the tools to be a good defensive 3B, and he occasionally shows flashes of brilliance, but sometimes I wonder if he will ever put it all together with the glove. He is certainly not in Bell's class in that category.

VR
07-20-2008, 10:05 PM
I agree on the Buddy Bell comparison. If he learns to use his head when making a throw. My general feeling is you are seeing what you will get from EdE for the forseeable future. If you like that, then you have your answer.

The Buddy Bell acquisition was quite an exciting time for Reds. The man was a pickin machine, with a solid stick for a couple of years with Reds. It's really too bad the 86/87/88 teams couldn't get over the hump....they had some good talent and exciting teams to watch.

Will M
07-20-2008, 10:51 PM
EE has 16 errors at 3B. this is 3rd worst in baseball for third baseman. in 2007 he had 16 all year, only slightly below average. in 2006 he led the majors in errors for third basemen.

As for his great range this is a RedsZone urban legend. He is 3rd last in baseball for range factor at 3B. in 2007 he was only slightly beloew average here. in 2006 he was 3rd to last.

basically he is poor defensively. he was awful in 2006. improved in 2007. regressed in 2008 and is now awful again.

As for his bat the numbers don't lie. He is having a fine season.

AtomicDumpling
07-20-2008, 11:12 PM
Edwin is doing extremely well at the plate. His defense needs some work, particularly with his throws. I think you will see EE's errors decline in proportion with Votto's improvement at fielding throws in the dirt and short hops.

If Votto were a good "picker" on the bag then EE would have half as many errors this year. I am sure Votto will improve in that regard with more experience and EE will improve with more experience too. They are both still very young.

red-in-la
07-21-2008, 01:11 AM
Edwin is doing extremely well at the plate. His defense needs some work, particularly with his throws. I think you will see EE's errors decline in proportion with Votto's improvement at fielding throws in the dirt and short hops.

If Votto were a good "picker" on the bag then EE would have half as many errors this year. I am sure Votto will improve in that regard with more experience and EE will improve with more experience too. They are both still very young.

I for sure haven't seen all of Edwin's throwing errors, but the ones I remember were not in the dirt, they were 10 feet over Votto's head. I also saw one he threw into RF on an attempt to start a DP.

WVRedsFan
07-21-2008, 01:22 AM
I for sure haven't seen all of Edwin's throwing errors, but the ones I remember were not in the dirt, they were 10 feet over Votto's head. I also saw one he threw into RF on an attempt to start a DP. Those are the ones I remember, too. It seems to me that Edwin has the same lack of judgement that we saw in Felipe Lopez. We vilify him but excuse Edwin for being very young. Edwin is 25 years old and has not improved his defense at all (if you live and die by statistics) while he's been here. The "very young" excuse is getting old. Yes, he's a fine hitter most of the time (though he makes bad judgements at the plate, too), but for him to become the complete player means he has to be able to make snap decisions at the hot corner. So far, he hasn't shown me that he's making any progress toward that goal.

I like him and hope he turns the corner, but I don't see it yet. If we vilify the rest of the team for defense (how much bandwidth has been wasted on the fielding sins of Dunn, Griffey, and others), Edwin shouldn't get a free ride. And yet he does.

Ltlabner
07-21-2008, 10:03 AM
Those are the ones I remember, too. It seems to me that Edwin has the same lack of judgement that we saw in Felipe Lopez. We vilify him but excuse Edwin for being very young. Edwin is 25 years old and has not improved his defense at all (if you live and die by statistics) while he's been here. The "very young" excuse is getting old. Yes, he's a fine hitter most of the time (though he makes bad judgements at the plate, too), but for him to become the complete player means he has to be able to make snap decisions at the hot corner. So far, he hasn't shown me that he's making any progress toward that goal.

I like him and hope he turns the corner, but I don't see it yet. If we vilify the rest of the team for defense (how much bandwidth has been wasted on the fielding sins of Dunn, Griffey, and others), Edwin shouldn't get a free ride. And yet he does.

Your liberal use of dramatic hyperbae aside, EE has been hammered pretty hard for his thowing goofs. There were many lengthy and contentious threads about "what to do about EE" and even more when he was demoted a couple of times.

If you boil defense down to only be defined as "throwing errors" yep, he continues to flub throws and the worst times and in the most visable of ways. If you open the blinders a bit to include fielding the ball, stoping balls from making it out to Dunn and some spectacular fielding/throws (aka webgems) you'd either be a fool or have a big adgenda to claim EE hasn't improved his defense "at all". (I say "you" as in the general you, not WVRedsfan specifically). Serriously, we all know defensive stats are a mess. He's carrying himself with more confidence in the field, his glove (not arm) is solid and it *seems* that every time I flip on the TV he's stopping a ball from making it's way into the outfield.

I've come around on Edwin. If you want to throw the strong bat and good glove-work baby out with the throwing errors bathwater, be my guest. I'd say you were missing the forrest for the trees.

WebScorpion
07-21-2008, 10:09 AM
Offensively, EE's story is sort of the story of all ballplayers. They have a streaking guy and a slumping guy and as they mature, they make adjustments quicker and return to the streaking guy more often and for longer stretches.
Defensively, I'm not sure he will ever learn the footwork it takes to be a solid ML infielder. It's going to be a judgement call from someone at some point as to whether he's capable of accomplishing the feat. I wonder how his footwork is in fielding practice? Does he make the same mistakes? Who knows?...but he sure has great fielding instincts! I can see why they thought he'd be great at the hot corner. I swear I'd send him to dance class or something ... anything to speed up his feet. If he got his feet under him, he could be one of the best third sackers in the game.

HokieRed
07-21-2008, 10:09 AM
He and Danny Dorn might make a nice LF platoon. If Keppinger can hit enough to play 3b, we use A Gon next year at SS and find a real shortstop the next year. The improved defense will be worth it. There's no sense building this team around starting pitching and then putting the kind of defense behind it that we have now. We're below average nearly everywhere except 2b.

Will M
07-21-2008, 11:57 AM
Offensively, EE's story is sort of the story of all ballplayers. They have a streaking guy and a slumping guy and as they mature, they make adjustments quicker and return to the streaking guy more often and for longer stretches.
Defensively, I'm not sure he will ever learn the footwork it takes to be a solid ML infielder. It's going to be a judgement call from someone at some point as to whether he's capable of accomplishing the feat. I wonder how his footwork is in fielding practice? Does he make the same mistakes? Who knows?...but he sure has great fielding instincts! I can see why they thought he'd be great at the hot corner. I swear I'd send him to dance class or something ... anything to speed up his feet. If he got his feet under him, he could be one of the best third sackers in the game.

this is where Walt, Dusty & the Reds coaches need to make a decision: will EE improve enough defensively to keep him at 3B or does he need to be moved to 1B or LF. it would vastly help the Reds if he could play solid defense at 3B.

as for the dance class idea - my brother was a high school football player at RB & LB. he was big, had great instincts & watched film 24 hrs a day. he was however not as quick as he wanted to be since he wanted to get a college scholarship. so at age 15 he started taking boxing lessons to improve his quickness. it worked. he was all SEC and played 7 years in the NFL on special teams. if EE doesn't want to take dance classes make him play soccer in the offseason.

Johnny Footstool
07-21-2008, 12:44 PM
Of his 16 errors, 12 are on throws.

dougdirt
07-21-2008, 02:19 PM
He and Danny Dorn might make a nice LF platoon. If Keppinger can hit enough to play 3b, we use A Gon next year at SS and find a real shortstop the next year. The improved defense will be worth it. There's no sense building this team around starting pitching and then putting the kind of defense behind it that we have now. We're below average nearly everywhere except 2b.

Why would EE platoon? He hits lefties better than righties, but he still has a respectable OPS vs righties.

HokieRed
07-21-2008, 02:31 PM
I didn't want to suggest that EE should only platoon, just that this might make for a very potent combination with EE and/or Dorn also being able to get some at-bats while at other positions. The suggestion is really made in the context of figuring out how to play to best advantage the people we have and will have soon. I have been a big supporter of EE's but frankly I think the train has left the station on the question of whether his defense is going to get better. It really has not gotten better--despite some flashes of improvement--so I think we start figuring out ways we can play him otherwise or deal him. I assume Dunn will be gone. I don't think he'll agree to a move to 1b and frankly I think Walt cannot afford to pay Dunn somewhere in the 15 million area--that kind of money on this club is going to have to go to solving more than one problem. Dorn is, as you know, Doug, extremely good against righthanders so I was looking for a way to come up with something like Dunn's contribution from the left-field spot. A Dorn-EE platoon might do that. All that could be further complicated, however, if Frazier can only play an outfield spot. Best solution would be for Frazier to be able to play third better than EE. Then we might have by 2010: Votto, Phillips, SS (maybe Valaika, maybe Phillips, with Valaika or Kepp at 2b), Frazier; Of: Dorn/EE, Stubbs, Bruce. Catching: some upgrade over what we have with Hanigan or Tatum as backup. That probably doesn't give EE enough at-bats and doesn't account for Alonso, Cumberland, or Henry. But it's an attempt at figuring out what might give us the best mix all around.

Kc61
07-21-2008, 02:39 PM
I2010: Votto, Phillips, SS (maybe Valaika, maybe Phillips, with Valaika or Kepp at 2b), Frazier; Of: Dorn/EE, Stubbs, Bruce. Catching: some upgrade over what we have with Hanigan or Tatum as backup. That probably doesn't give EE enough at-bats and doesn't account for Alonso, Cumberland, or Henry. But it's an attempt at figuring out what might give us the best mix all around.


Sounds like a fifth place team to me. Sometimes a guy with a major league track record is good.

nate
07-21-2008, 02:45 PM
I have been a big supporter of EE's but frankly I think the train has left the station on the question of whether his defense is going to get better. It really has not gotten better--despite some flashes of improvement--

Oddly, I think of it the other way. I think his defense has improved with flashes of regression.

HokieRed
07-21-2008, 03:05 PM
My suggestion about an EE platoon in LF was meant to get him off third base and to keep him in the lineup with Dorn coming. Dorn has 10 homers and 35 RBI's against right-handers in 160 AB's this season and a .974 OPS. If he keeps up anything like that pace, people will have to justify keeping him out of the lineup against righthanders by 2010. Are you going to sit him to play EE every day in LF? or continue with EE at 3b? The latter's ok, I guess, if you're content with a 3baseman who ranks in the bottom 1/3 defensively. But does it make a lot of sense to do that if, as RZERs are eternally maintaining, we have to build with pitching?

dougdirt
07-21-2008, 03:16 PM
I would keep EE at 3B personally and there is no way I am splitting his time with anyone no matter what position he is playing because his bat has more upside than anyone on this team not named Jay Bruce (and Griffey at one time, but that time was long ago).

cincinnati chili
07-21-2008, 03:23 PM
he's the kind of player that gets managers and GMs fired

Elaborate. I take this to mean that managers/GMs are seduced by his offense, and ignore the damage of his defense. But I'm not really sure.

Kc61
07-21-2008, 03:23 PM
I would keep EE at 3B personally and there is no way I am splitting his time with anyone no matter what position he is playing because his bat has more upside than anyone on this team not named Jay Bruce (and Griffey at one time, but that time was long ago).

IMO the Reds will keep him at third until he gets closer to arbitration/real money. At some point, if he keeps making errors, they will trade EE and Todd Frazier will probably take over.

I don't think they will change EE's position. They've invested a lot of time in EE as a third baseman. At this stage, they'll give him awhile longer to iron out the problems. EE's now showing a plus bat for a third baseman, that's where his value is if he can field the position well enough.

Disappointing that EE hasn't developed into a more reliable fielder. He has a lot of talent but a propensity toward errors would hurt his reputation and value over the course of his career. At this stage, he's had a lot of reps at the position and the team undoubtedly hoped he would be a steadier fielder.

Stormy
07-21-2008, 03:30 PM
I would keep EE at 3B personally and there is no way I am splitting his time with anyone no matter what position he is playing because his bat has more upside than anyone on this team not named Jay Bruce (and Griffey at one time, but that time was long ago).

Completely agree. I'm hoping that with more mental maturity, and experience, even a few of his flaws will become strengths. I keep him right where he is, and enjoy the offensive benefits and exceptional plays, outweighing the still too frequent errors.

Rojo
07-21-2008, 04:49 PM
My suggestion about an EE platoon in LF was meant to get him off third base and to keep him in the lineup with Dorn coming. Dorn has 10 homers and 35 RBI's against right-handers in 160 AB's this season and a .974 OPS. If he keeps up anything like that pace, people will have to justify keeping him out of the lineup against righthanders by 2010. Are you going to sit him to play EE every day in LF? or continue with EE at 3b? The latter's ok, I guess, if you're content with a 3baseman who ranks in the bottom 1/3 defensively. But does it make a lot of sense to do that if, as RZERs are eternally maintaining, we have to build with pitching?

Platoons: big production, low,low prices.

HokieRed
07-21-2008, 04:59 PM
Well, Doug, what about 1b? Votto to left? Then who sits, in 2010, Frazier, Votto, Alonso, Dorn, not to mention Cumberland, Henry, Valaika, Keppinger. How do you play these guys in 2010 if EE is getting every at-bat at 3b--something I've always advocated until recently and which I'd love to see, but I'm no longer willing to say there's reason to think he's going to get significantly better at third? If the organization wants to put him there, fine, but it ought to do it realistically. His bat will put him in the top 10 of third basemen, his glove in the bottom 10.

dougdirt
07-21-2008, 05:00 PM
Well, Doug, what about 1b? Votto to left? Then who sits, in 2010, Frazier, Votto, Alonso, Dorn, not to mention Cumberland, Henry, Valaika, Keppinger. How do you play these guys in 2010 if EE is getting every at-bat at 3b--something I've always advocated until recently and which I'd love to see, but I'm no longer willing to say there's reason to think he's going to get significantly better at third? If the organization wants to put him there, fine, but it ought to do it realistically. His bat will put him in the top 10 of third basemen, his glove in the bottom 10.

Worry about finding spots for the future when that time arrives.

HokieRed
07-21-2008, 05:30 PM
Seems like GM's have got to look into the future a bit. Beane just moved Blanton to the Phillies for prospects because he was looking to the future. So let's keep the future near. Let's assume Dunn is gone in 2009. What do we do about left and 3b? Is it better to keep EE at 3d and go out to find a left-fielder (or perhaps first baseman)? Move EE to left and look for a 3d baseman? Or find the solution inside?

dougdirt
07-21-2008, 05:42 PM
Seems like GM's have got to look into the future a bit. Beane just moved Blanton to the Phillies for prospects because he was looking to the future. So let's keep the future near. Let's assume Dunn is gone in 2009. What do we do about left and 3b? Is it better to keep EE at 3d and go out to find a left-fielder (or perhaps first baseman)? Move EE to left and look for a 3d baseman? Or find the solution inside?

Well, you were more thinking about worry about guys you are going to keep for next year or 2 years from now. At that point, you could move them if you have replacements ready.

If the Reds don't sign Dunn, I wouldn't have an issue with EE to LF and Keppinger to 3B if the Reds are going to play Gonzo at SS. I would imagine it would improve the defense across the board. It wouldn't be the first option I would explore, but would be one option I would explore.

TRF
07-21-2008, 10:52 PM
great thread.

EE gets lost in the Dunn ongoing sux/great threads and the unabashed praise of Brandon Phillips. But the truth is he was a better hitter than BP last year, and it isn't even close this year. I disagree with RMR that May is indicative of EE. That was an awful slump, and every player has them at one point or another. Added to his total body of work it's a blip, an aberration. Since June 1, there hasn't been a better hitting 3B in all of MLB. If May had been even league average, he probably would have made the All Star Game.

EE is so underappreciated to the point of being ridiculous, a thread like this was sorely needed.

Blitz Dorsey
07-22-2008, 04:49 PM
I'm actually pretty shocked by EE's recent power surge. He always struck me as a guy who was overrated in terms of power production. But he's still young and maybe he's turned the corner. Let's hope he has. If he keeps improving, our Reds will be in good shape. A consistent RH power hitting 3B would be great for this team.

Blitz Dorsey
07-22-2008, 04:52 PM
great thread.

EE gets lost in the Dunn ongoing sux/great threads and the unabashed praise of Brandon Phillips. But the truth is he was a better hitter than BP last year, and it isn't even close this year. I disagree with RMR that May is indicative of EE. That was an awful slump, and every player has them at one point or another. Added to his total body of work it's a blip, an aberration. Since June 1, there hasn't been a better hitting 3B in all of MLB. If May had been even league average, he probably would have made the All Star Game.

EE is so underappreciated to the point of being ridiculous, a thread like this was sorely needed.

It's funny you say unabashed praise for Brandon Phillips. I see him ripped on this board more than praised. And everyone pretty much says the same thing. Some type of form of "I know BP is loved by everyone, but I think he lacks at" this and that.

For the record, I like BP. My one complaint about him, however, is that it could be an 0-2 count with a runner on third and the score 1-1 in the 9th with one out, and BP would still take a HR cut. The guy has no concept of shortening up his swing with 2 strikes, but overall I like him.

RichRed
07-22-2008, 05:37 PM
EE is so underappreciated to the point of being ridiculous, a thread like this was sorely needed.

Underappreciated even by his manager, if batting order is any indication (not to turn this into a lineup-bashing thread):

2008
Batting 4th in lineup - 13 PAs
5th - 55 PAs
6th - 232 PAs
7th - 58 PAs

(He's batting 7th tonight behind Javy, by the way.)

If Jocketty really did say EE is "untouchable," maybe he saw this power surge coming? I'd like to think that's the case anyway.

Rojo
07-22-2008, 06:38 PM
It's funny you say unabashed praise for Brandon Phillips. I see him ripped on this board more than praised. And everyone pretty much says the same thing. Some type of form of "I know BP is loved by everyone, but I think he lacks at" this and that.

People confuse the board with Marty Breneman.

Redsfaithful
07-23-2008, 03:04 AM
We vilify him but excuse Edwin for being very young. Edwin is 25 years old and has not improved his defense at all (if you live and die by statistics) while he's been here. The "very young" excuse is getting old.

But its true. Plenty of guys don't finish their development until they're 26-28. I imagine there's a good chance Edwin's offense is going to get better and better the next few years, and I do think his defense has gotten better as well.

It'd be nice if the Reds had a slick fielding shortstop to take the pressure off of Edwin a little bit, but with that being said, I do still think he's improved defensively this year.

Ron Madden
07-23-2008, 04:23 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Edwin has a ton of talent and is by all accounts one of the hardest workers in the league. He has the tools to be one of if not the best thirdbaseman in Cincinnati Reds History.

Please don't forget the growing pains that come along with young players. Edwin has been learning his trade at the major league level (and doing quite well) while most players his age are learning thier craft in AAA under much less pressure. (Edwin is only months older than Joey Votto)

I just shake my head and disagree whenever anyone says the future would be brighter with Freel or Keppenger playing 3B instead of EE.

(MHO):)

TRF
07-23-2008, 12:00 PM
It's funny you say unabashed praise for Brandon Phillips. I see him ripped on this board more than praised. And everyone pretty much says the same thing. Some type of form of "I know BP is loved by everyone, but I think he lacks at" this and that.

For the record, I like BP. My one complaint about him, however, is that it could be an 0-2 count with a runner on third and the score 1-1 in the 9th with one out, and BP would still take a HR cut. The guy has no concept of shortening up his swing with 2 strikes, but overall I like him.

I love BP's defense. But he's completely miscast as a cleanup hitter, and in fact he should be swapped in the order with EE who is much better suited to that slot. Their splits tell the story. BP is slightly better against LH pitching, a little more pop, a little less OBP. But EE is miles better against RH, even with his HORRIBLE May. an .811 OPS against RH's vs BP's .662. Yet despite the obvious, BP can't hit RH worth a crap, he's still in the #4 slot every stinking night.

And all fans do is drone on about EE's throwing issues. Never mind that in 3 of the first 4 months of this season he's posted an OPS above .940.

Adam Dunn hasn't even done that this year.

Will M
07-23-2008, 01:21 PM
I love BP's defense. But he's completely miscast as a cleanup hitter, and in fact he should be swapped in the order with EE who is much better suited to that slot. Their splits tell the story. BP is slightly better against LH pitching, a little more pop, a little less OBP. But EE is miles better against RH, even with his HORRIBLE May. an .811 OPS against RH's vs BP's .662. Yet despite the obvious, BP can't hit RH worth a crap, he's still in the #4 slot every stinking night.

And all fans do is drone on about EE's throwing issues. Never mind that in 3 of the first 4 months of this season he's posted an OPS above .940.

Adam Dunn hasn't even done that this year.

I agree with you re Phillips. He should hit high in the order vs LHP but ~7th vs RHP.

You can't cherry pick numbers and ignore EE's May. All games count.

EE's offensive improvement this year is very welcome.

IF he can play decent enough defense to stay at 3B he is an asset to the Reds. If he can't then he is just another 1B or LF with an OPS of .850

RedsManRick
07-23-2008, 01:33 PM
I agree with you re Phillips. He should hit high in the order vs LHP but ~7th vs RHP.

You can't cherry pick numbers and ignore EE's May. All games count.

EE's offensive improvement this year is very welcome.

IF he can play decent enough defense to stay at 3B he is an asset to the Reds. If he can't then he is just another 1B or LF with an OPS of .850

I just wanted to highlight this because I think people tend to over-estimate just how common that level of offensive of production is.

There are 26 qualified 1B in the majors and just 10 (~40%) have an .850 or better OPS. The number is 10 of 16 in LF 7 of 22 at 3B. All told, there are 47 qualified batters with an .850 OPS -- enough for 1.5 per team. In 2007 there 46. 58 in 2006.

The point is that on the average team, EE would be one of the two most productive offensive players. That doesn't make him a star or anything, but it's not something to brush off lightly either. .850 OPS bats aren't just floating around out there. There aren't enough for every team to have one at LF and 1B, let alone elsewhere on the diamond.

HotCorner
07-23-2008, 01:41 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Edwin has a ton of talent and is by all accounts one of the hardest workers in the league. He has the tools to be one of if not the best thirdbaseman in Cincinnati Reds History.

Please don't forget the growing pains that come along with young players. Edwin has been learning his trade at the major league level (and doing quite well) while most players his age are learning thier craft in AAA under much less pressure. (Edwin is only months older than Joey Votto)

I just shake my head and disagree whenever anyone says the future would be brighter with Freel or Keppenger playing 3B instead of EE.

(MHO):)

http://pro.corbis.com/images/RF250976.jpg?size=572&uid=%7B9D7585C8-9114-4541-B82C-121EA09D00FB%7D

Will M
07-23-2008, 01:55 PM
I just wanted to highlight this because I think people tend to over-estimate just how common that level of offensive of production is.

There are 26 qualified 1B in the majors and just 10 (~40%) have an .850 or better OPS. The number is 10 of 16 in LF 7 of 22 at 3B. All told, there are 47 qualified batters with an .850 OPS -- enough for 1.5 per team. In 2007 there 46. 58 in 2006.

The point is that on the average team, EE would be one of the two most productive offensive players. That doesn't make him a star or anything, but it's not something to brush off lightly either. .850 OPS bats aren't just floating around out there. There aren't enough for every team to have one at LF and 1B, let alone elsewhere on the diamond.

Yes but 1B and LF are where your weak fielders/big hitters play.
An OPS of 850 at 1B or LF is middle of the pack, at 3b it is top 1/4.
So if EE can field at 3B he is much more valuable to any team.

TRF
07-23-2008, 02:10 PM
I agree with you re Phillips. He should hit high in the order vs LHP but ~7th vs RHP.

You can't cherry pick numbers and ignore EE's May. All games count.

EE's offensive improvement this year is very welcome.

IF he can play decent enough defense to stay at 3B he is an asset to the Reds. If he can't then he is just another 1B or LF with an OPS of .850

Not cherry picking. But I should mention he is prone odd slumps. but as the years pass the month long slumps seem to be happening less and less, while his exceptional months happen more, and are of higher quality. He'll likely finish July with an OPS well above 1.000.

1 awful month in 4 is a blip. his trends indicate he gets better (to a point) every year, though 2007 was a bit of a step back, he finished very strong, leading into this year. He stumbled in May, and adjusted.

I think every player's basement can be what EE's May was. It was a nightmare of a month. Not many players that go through a month like that can still boast an .861 OPS.

dougdirt
07-23-2008, 03:16 PM
This just in, Edwin still real good.

NJReds
07-23-2008, 03:19 PM
I think every player's basement can be what EE's May was. It was a nightmare of a month. Not many players that go through a month like that can still boast an .861 OPS.

Robbie Cano went through a longer slump then that this year, but he's bounced back nicely.

After spending the weekend in Cincy for the Mets series, I really appreciate EE's offense a lot more. My friend, a Mets' fan, said that Dunn and EE were the two hitters that he least wanted to see up in a big situation (small sample size, I know).

Cyclone792
07-23-2008, 03:33 PM
After spending the weekend in Cincy for the Mets series, I really appreciate EE's offense a lot more. My friend, a Mets' fan, said that Dunn and EE were the two hitters that he least wanted to see up in a big situation (small sample size, I know).

Your buddy has a good sense of the Reds offense, because Dunn and Encarnacion are the Reds' two best hitters this season ... and it isn't particularly close either.

dougdirt
07-23-2008, 03:37 PM
Your buddy has a good sense of the Reds offense, because Dunn and Encarnacion are the Reds' two best hitters this season ... and it isn't particularly close either.

There is no doubt who has carried this teams offense this year. It starts and ends with those two guys.

nate
07-23-2008, 03:40 PM
EE over the past 28 days (not including today):

.373/.479/.763

Could one describe that as "torrid?"

NJReds
07-23-2008, 04:01 PM
There is no doubt who has carried this teams offense this year. It starts and ends with those two guys.

Although Phillips sometimes jumpstarts this team when it seems like its lacking in energy.

On Sunday, I thought the Reds would just sleepwalk through the entire afternoon, but after Jr.'s pop-fly double, Phillips roped a single, stole second and went to third on an error. It really picked up the crowd and woke up the team, IMO. I understand he's not the best hitter, but he does always seem to bring a lot of energy to the field, and he's really the only true basestealing threat when Hairston's not around.

RedsManRick
07-23-2008, 04:03 PM
Not cherry picking. But I should mention he is prone odd slumps.

I feel like I've been asking this every time I've seen it asserted, but nobody has answered me yet so I'll ask again. Do you have any evidence that EE is any more prone to slumps than the average hitter?

Not directed at you specifically, but I'm so tired of hearing people talk about consistency over and over again without any rigorous measure of it. Every player has significant variations in monthly performance. Until somebody shows me a measure of the scale of that variation, it's just conjecture.

Heck, Phillips had a .867 OPS in April and May and a .681 OPS in June and July. That's streaky!

Often we call things slumps and streaks not because they're any different that the normal variation of performance but because we just happen to notice them. Sort of like how when you get a new car, it seems like everybody else on the road has the same one.

nate
07-23-2008, 04:08 PM
I feel like I've been asking this every time I've seen it asserted, but nobody has answered me yet so I'll ask again. Do you have any evidence that EE is any more prone to slumps than the average hitter?

I'll take a chance and answer!

No.

HokieRed
07-23-2008, 04:19 PM
Time to move EE up in the lineup?

dougdirt
07-23-2008, 04:27 PM
Time to move EE up in the lineup?

In June it was time to move him up in the lineup....

Chip R
07-23-2008, 04:32 PM
In June it was time to move him up in the lineup....


I think he was moved up in the lineup after he got got earlier this year but then he slumped again. Perhaps Dusty doesn't feel he can handle the #4 or #5 spot.

Blitz Dorsey
07-23-2008, 04:43 PM
Edwin is proving me wrong more and more each day and I absolutely love it. Eating crow can actually taste good, don't let anyone tell you different.

I've always though EE was overrated as a power hitter and would never hit 30 HRs in a season. I also thought his poor defense would prevent him from getting as many ABs as he would if he were a good defender (i.e. he wouldn't get enough starts because the manager didn't want to run his shaky defense out there every day). But even his D is showing signs of coming around. I just hope it keeps up. I love to be wrong if it means good things for the Reds.

Now Drew Stubbs, you're next my friend. Prove me wrong.

RedsManRick
07-23-2008, 04:51 PM
I think he was moved up in the lineup after he got got earlier this year but then he slumped again. Perhaps Dusty doesn't feel he can handle the #4 or #5 spot.

Moving EE up would mean moving somebody else down. Dusty has already told us it won't be Junior or Dunn. That leaves Bruce, the lead-off types, and Phillips. Do the math.

Personally, I'd drop Phillips against righties and Bruce against lefties. But we all know that's not going to happen.

TRF
07-23-2008, 06:00 PM
I feel like I've been asking this every time I've seen it asserted, but nobody has answered me yet so I'll ask again. Do you have any evidence that EE is any more prone to slumps than the average hitter?

Not directed at you specifically, but I'm so tired of hearing people talk about consistency over and over again without any rigorous measure of it. Every player has significant variations in monthly performance. Until somebody shows me a measure of the scale of that variation, it's just conjecture.

Heck, Phillips had a .867 OPS in April and May and a .681 OPS in June and July. That's streaky!

Often we call things slumps and streaks not because they're any different that the normal variation of performance but because we just happen to notice them. Sort of like how when you get a new car, it seems like everybody else on the road has the same one.
yup I looked at his splits over the last 4 years. he has month long slumps, that gradually decrease in frequency from year to year. maybe this is just maturity, but when he does slump, he slumps HARD.

MississippiRed
07-23-2008, 06:02 PM
EE over the past 28 days (not including today):

.373/.479/.763

Could one describe that as "torrid?"

excellent word, torrid

RedsManRick
07-23-2008, 10:59 PM
yup I looked at his splits over the last 4 years. he has month long slumps, that gradually decrease in frequency from year to year. maybe this is just maturity, but when he does slump, he slumps HARD.

Again, I have no doubt whatsoever that EE goes in to prolonged slumps. I'm not arguing that point. Everybody slumps, hard, from time to time.

I'm asking how this is different from what most players go through. Any assertion about "more" or "harder" should be backed by a comparison of EE versus some measure of what other players do.

A simple "it looks like" is incredibly subject to bias. When you look for something in particular in a data set in a subjective manner, you'll often find it.

M2
07-23-2008, 11:27 PM
Anyone know how well Todd Frazier handles 3B? I ask because my question with Edwin at this juncture is whether he's worth more on the team (long-term) or in trade after he has a big season.

He might be able to deliver .280/30/100 next season and that might be the right time to move him. Frazier might be able to handle 3B in the majors in 2010 (or it might be 2011), but the outstanding question is whether he's got the defensive aptitude for it (I just don't know).

I once saw a team with Bobby Bonilla at 3B win a World Series. I've seen a team with Tony Womack at SS win a World Series. I've seen three teams with Lonnie Smith in LF win a World Series. So I know it's possible to thrive even with a goofy defender in the mix. Encarnacion, if the team understands how to make him fit into the greater whole (the greater whole being a consistent weakness with this franchise), should be a steady RH middle lineup bat (though I view him more as a 5-6 hitter than a 3-4 guy), particularly as he gets into his late 20s.

My take right now is he's not a guy you build around, but he is an asset (to keep or trade).

BuckeyeRedleg
07-24-2008, 12:08 AM
Between Votto, EE, Dunn, Alonso, and Frazier, something has got to give.

If I had to guess Dunn has the least chance of being here in 2-3 years, followed by EE and then Votto.

Personally, I'd re-sign Dunn and look to package Votto and a pitching prospect with Weathers for a decent C, CF, or SS prospect that is a year or less away.

EE is on the Aramis Ramirez track. Leave him alone.

AtomicDumpling
07-24-2008, 12:11 AM
If it became time to move Encarnacion off third base I would consider moving him to second base with Phillips moving to shortstop.

Since EE's errors are almost exclusively of the throwing variety it would make sense to move him to 2nd where the throws are very short and with much more time to set his feet. His fielding is good. He may not have the range of Brandon Phillips of course, but I think he could handle the position better than many current MLB second basemen. EE has the physical talent to play infield, so I would hesitate to move him to the outfield if possible.

RedlegJake
07-24-2008, 08:20 AM
I'd leave EE at third. My own opinion is that he saves as many or more runs with great plays at third as he allows with bad throws - its just that the throws frustrate more and are remembered with a vengeance. His bat is undoubtedly getting better. If a trade offer comes along that knocks me off my feet sure I'd deal him and look for Frazier in the future with a stopgap meantime but I'd deal ANY player if a great package came along. As long as he was a Red, though, he'd play third for me.

IslandRed
07-24-2008, 02:19 PM
My take right now is he's not a guy you build around, but he is an asset (to keep or trade).

That's pretty accurate to me.

Oddly enough, the better he hits the more willing I am to see him moved to another position. I posted before that I'm pessimistic about his defense; reliability is still a concern, and the advanced defensive metrics, such as the state of the art is, don't think his range is all that and a bag of chips compared to his proper peer group, other starting third basemen. The best argument for living with his defense was, he wouldn't have much value at a more offense-oriented position. But .280/30/100 plays most anywhere.

AmarilloRed
07-24-2008, 02:56 PM
For those who are interested in moving Edwin to another position because of his defense(I am open to the idea), it is worth noting he has played at third his whole career, including the minors. He has played 2 games at first in his major league career, and only a handful of games in the minors at first and short. He has never played in the outfield. It would be a major change for him to transition to another position, and his defense might not improve in the transition period(or he might not be able to make the transition).

Chip R
07-24-2008, 03:24 PM
For those who are interested in moving Edwin to another position because of his defense(I am open to the idea), it is worth noting he has played at third his whole career, including the minors. He has played 2 games at first in his major league career, and only a handful of games in the minors at first and short. He has never played in the outfield. It would be a major change for him to transition to another position, and his defense might not improve in the transition period(or he might not be able to make the transition).


That's a good point. For those of you who would like to see Keppinger at 3rd, I saw him play there in CLE and his throws were pretty shaky there. Votto had to make a few tags to get the batter coming down the line.

princeton
07-24-2008, 03:35 PM
That's pretty accurate to me.

Oddly enough, the better he hits the more willing I am to see him moved to another position. I posted before that I'm pessimistic about his defense; reliability is still a concern, and the advanced defensive metrics, such as the state of the art is, don't think his range is all that and a bag of chips compared to his proper peer group, other starting third basemen. The best argument for living with his defense was, he wouldn't have much value at a more offense-oriented position. But .280/30/100 plays most anywhere.

some guys hit better when playing less demanding positions.

not everyone multitasks as well as I

Chip R
07-24-2008, 03:38 PM
not everyone multitasks as well as I


Were you the guy on the Red Roof Inn commercial last year who bragged about his multitasking? ;)

membengal
07-24-2008, 03:41 PM
EE right now versus other 3b luminaries:

David Wright:

.288/.388/.513 for a .901 OPS. 19 homeruns. 13 stolen bases. 386 at-bats.

Aramis Ramirez:

.268/.367/.481 for a .848 OPS. 17 homeruns. 1 stolen base. 351 at-bats.

Ryan Zimmerman:

.266/.304/.430 for a .734 OPS. 8 homeruns. 0 stolen base. 214 at-bats.

Alex Rodriguez:

.318/.398/.593 for a .991 OPS. 21 homeruns. 15 stolen bases. 302 at-bats.

EE:

.266/.354/.513 for a .867 OPS. 19 homeruns. 1 stolen base. 320 at-bats.

Evan Longoria:

.272/.347/.523 for a .870 OPS. 19 homeruns. 6 stolen bases. 327 at-bats.

Mark Reynolds:

.245/.328/.480 for a .808 OPS. 19 homeruns. 6 stolen bases. 331 at-bats.

Troy Glaus:

.281/.381/.513 for a .894 OPS. 18 homeruns. 0 stolen bases. 359 at-bats.

Chipper Jones:

.369/.466/.596 for a 1.062 OPS. 18 homeruns. 2 stolen bases. 317 at-bats.

Joe Crede:

.255/.323/.474 for a .797 OPS. 17 homeruns. 0 stolen bases. 310 at-bats.

Adrian Beltre:

.259/.330/.432 for a .762 OPS. 16 homeruns. 7 stolen bases. 375 at-bats.

EE is tied for second in homeruns among all third basemen.

He is fourth in slugging percentage (275+ at-bats as cut-off) among all 3b.

He is 6th in OPS among all 3b.

He is 6th in extra base hits among all 3b.

As for the defense, only Crede, Reynolds and Cantu have committed more errors. Then again, I tend to not be as full metal jacket on EE's defense as most folks on here, as the guy gets to more balls than you would reasonably expect a human to, and appears to my eye to be rapidly improving.

So...in answer to the original question, in my opinion, at the age of 25 years old, right now, EE is among the handful of players in the conversation for best at his position. In the top 5 arguably. Right. now.

As for how good he can be? I see no reason why he could not be in an all-star game or two in the next five years. He may not have Wright's ceiling, but he may be a lot closer than some on here think.

He's really good.

Now.

Rojo
07-24-2008, 03:46 PM
That's a good point. For those of you who would like to see Keppinger at 3rd, I saw him play there in CLE and his throws were pretty shaky there. Votto had to make a few tags to get the batter coming down the line.

Kepp's FP is higher at third.

Throwing errors are usually two-baggers, I sacrifice range for steadiness at third. And that EdE has range is an open question.

MasonBuzz3
07-24-2008, 04:27 PM
As for the defense, only Crede, Reynolds and Cantu have committed more errors. Then again, I tend to not be as full metal jacket on EE's defense as most folks on here, as the guy gets to more balls than you would reasonably expect a human to, and appears to my eye to be rapidly improving.


I know that Reynolds and Cantu are considered to be hacks in the field, but isnt Crede thought of a good defensive 3B?

Chip R
07-24-2008, 04:31 PM
Kepp's FP is higher at third.

Throwing errors are usually two-baggers, I sacrifice range for steadiness at third. And that EdE has range is an open question.


Small sample size in either case. I only saw him for a couple of games and Kepp hasn't played a lot of 3rd. Maybe he had a bad night but with him at 3rd, it's possible we'll be thinking about the good old days when EE was there.

TRF
07-24-2008, 05:29 PM
So...in answer to the original question, in my opinion, at the age of 25 years old, right now, EE is among the handful of players in the conversation for best at his position. In the top 5 arguably. Right. now.

As for how good he can be? I see no reason why he could not be in an all-star game or two in the next five years. He may not have Wright's ceiling, but he may be a lot closer than some on here think.

He's really good.

Now.

I agree except that I think we are seeing Wright's ceiling. And I think EE's is higher.

M2
07-24-2008, 06:19 PM
I agree except that I think we are seeing Wright's ceiling. And I think EE's is higher.

Why? Wright's actually a little younger. He hits better. He fields better. He runs better.

That's no meant to belittle Encarnacion, but Wright's already a consistent MVP contender.

I suppose it's hard to imagine a player getting much better than Wright is, while EdE seemingly has room to grow, but if we go squarely by age and a foundation that lends itself to improvement, then I wouldn't be so sure Encarnacion will ever catch up.

Rojo
07-24-2008, 06:55 PM
Small sample size in either case. I only saw him for a couple of games and Kepp hasn't played a lot of 3rd. Maybe he had a bad night but with him at 3rd, it's possible we'll be thinking about the good old days when EE was there.

Kepps 3rd sample is small but his fielding percentage at 2nd and short is bigger and he's solid there too. That doesn't mean it necessarily translates (its a long throw) but in the few innings he has played third, in the minors and majors, it has.

OTOH, we have a pretty big sample for EdE, who has career .906 in the minors. That doesn't mean he can't grow into it, but right now Kepp looks like the steadier glove.

I really want EdE to make it at third, I grow more dubious.

TRF
07-25-2008, 10:05 AM
Why? Wright's actually a little younger. He hits better. He fields better. He runs better.

That's no meant to belittle Encarnacion, but Wright's already a consistent MVP contender.

I suppose it's hard to imagine a player getting much better than Wright is, while EdE seemingly has room to grow, but if we go squarely by age and a foundation that lends itself to improvement, then I wouldn't be so sure Encarnacion will ever catch up.

I think Wright has plateaued. I don't think he's a better fielder than EE. He makes his share of errors too. I think EE has tremendous range at 3B. Wright is actually older than EE, not younger, though the difference in their ages is only a couple of weeks. Wright over the last three years has had the majority of his AB's in one slot, while EE has been jerked all over the lineup. Wright has had MUCH better protection too. Wright has been better, but he's definitely leveled off. Now, he's leveled off at an All-Star level true. If EE doesn't have a higher ceiling (I still think he does) he's damn close. Had he been with another org, one that has a better understanding of how to develop players and manage a roster, he'd likely be an all star by now.

M2
07-25-2008, 11:01 AM
I think Wright has plateaued. I don't think he's a better fielder than EE. He makes his share of errors too. I think EE has tremendous range at 3B. Wright is actually older than EE, not younger, though the difference in their ages is only a couple of weeks. Wright over the last three years has had the majority of his AB's in one slot, while EE has been jerked all over the lineup. Wright has had MUCH better protection too. Wright has been better, but he's definitely leveled off. Now, he's leveled off at an All-Star level true. If EE doesn't have a higher ceiling (I still think he does) he's damn close. Had he been with another org, one that has a better understanding of how to develop players and manage a roster, he'd likely be an all star by now.

Wright's 25 and he's on track to finish in the league top 10 in MVP voting for the third time in his career. If that's his plateau, it's one hell of a plateau to be on for the next decade. It's the kind of plateau that gets you into Cooperstown. He's putting up top numbers in one of the better pitching parks in the game.

I think you're ignoring that he very well might get better in his late 20s ... and that would be scary.

As for defense, I don't think there's a scout or defensive metric on the planet that wouldn't put Wright well ahead of Encarnacion.

fearofpopvol1
07-25-2008, 11:05 AM
Wright's 25 and he's on track to finish in the league top 10 in MVP voting for the third time in his career. If that's his plateau, it's one hell of a plateau to be on for the next decade. It's the kind of plateau that gets you into Cooperstown. He's putting up top numbers in one of the better pitching parks in the game.

I think you're ignoring that he very well might get better in his late 20s ... and that would be scary.

As for defense, I don't think there's a scout or defensive metric on the planet that wouldn't put Wright well ahead of Encarnacion.

I don't think right now, but I think EdE does have a higher ceiling than Wright with regard to defense. I think EdE has better range and a good arm, even if his throws suck sometimes. I don't see any chance that EdE becomes a better hitter than Wright though.

jojo
07-25-2008, 11:06 AM
I think if you're going to move one of of the infielders off of a corner and into left, I would consider moving EE before Votto.

dougdirt
07-25-2008, 03:01 PM
I don't think right now, but I think EdE does have a higher ceiling than Wright with regard to defense. I think EdE has better range and a good arm, even if his throws suck sometimes. I don't see any chance that EdE becomes a better hitter than Wright though.

I see it the exact opposite way. I don't think Edwin is going to ever become a better defender than Wright, but I certainly think he could become a better hitter than Wright.

Will M
07-26-2008, 10:36 PM
Special Ed was back at the hot corner tonight. I just don't see what others see when it comes to his defense.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-26-2008, 11:41 PM
Special Ed was back at the hot corner tonight. I just don't see what others see when it comes to his defense.

I dont see what others see when it comes to his bat either. I know there are mountains of stats that can bury me on this, but just watching him ... I don't get it.