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View Full Version : Are The Reds A Roster Of Platoon Players ?



Spring~Fields
07-21-2008, 05:20 PM
Based primarily upon on base percentage and other factors, are the Reds a roster of platoon players ?

On another thread a poster was discussing the possible future without an Adam Dunn, he mentioned the term “platoon” in one of his lines, I believe it was dougdirt, anyway, the point is that it got me to thinking and wondering about platoon players and if the Reds roster had many platoon type hitters already.


In 2008, it appears that several of the hitters either hit a left handed pitcher or right handed pitcher better. Arguably, a couple, it might be said have a good on base percentage against both handed pitching.

Would a situation like that qualify as platoon type players?

For example: Against left handed pitching

* Jeff Keppinger the leading on base percentage hitter against left handed pitching among active players.
A.) Is tenth in on base percentage against right handed pitching.
B.) Tenth, arguably a bench player against right handed pitching.
C.) Keppinger is third leading hitter in slugging against left handed pitching and is eleventh among active players in slugging against right handed pitching.
D.) 74 AB against LH pitching, 158 AB against RH pitching

* Edwin Encarnacion the second leading on base percentage hitter against left handed pitching among active players.
A.) Is the ninth leading on base percentage hitter against right handed pitching.
C.) Is fourth against left handed pitching in slugging and is fourth in slugging against right handed pitching.
B.) EE has the second leading amount of AB against right handed pitching with 220 AB, 90 AB against left handed pitching

* Brandon Phillips the third leading on base percentage hitter against left handed pitching.
A.) Is the twelfth leading hitter against right handed pitching.
A.) Arguably a terrible cleanup hitter against right handed pitching.
B.) Phillips is ahead of only Corey Patterson against right handed pitching in on base percentage,
Corey Patterson, the Reds bench mark for poor hitting.
C.) Brandon leads the team with 268 AB against right handed pitching, while being used as a cleanup batter. 120 AB against LH pitching.
D.) Number one in slugging against left handed pitching, eighth among active players against right handed pitching, one position above Corey Patterson .

* Adam Dunn the fourth leading on base percentage hitter against left handed pitching.
A.) Is also the third leading on base percentage hitter against right handed pitching.
B.) Obviously a team leader in on base percentage against both handed pitching, and not one that would be considered a platoon player.
C.) Number one in slugging against right handed pitching, seventh in slugging among active players against left handed pitching.
D.) 210 AB against RH pitching, 90 AB against LH pitching.

* Joey Votto the fifth leading on base percentage hitter against left handed pitching.
A.) Is also the sixth leading on base percentage hitter against right handed pitching.
B.) Another team leader in on base percentage against both handed pitching, and not one that would be normally considered a platoon player.
C.) Fourth among active players in slugging against left handed pitching, fifth in slugging against right handed pitching.
D.) 213 AB against RH pitching, 111 against LF pitching.

* David Ross tied for fifth leading on base percentage hitter against left handed pitching
A.) Number two in on base percentage against right handed pitching among active players.
B.) Ninth in slugging against LH pitching, third in slugging against RH pitching, .
C.) 54 AB against LH pitching, 55 AB against RH pitching.

* Ken Griffey Jr. the seventh leading on base percentage among active players against left handed pitching.
A.) Fourth in on base percentage against right handed pitching.
B.) Eighth in slugging against LH pitching, sixth in slugging against RH pitching among active players.
C.) 111 AB against LH pitching, 219 AB against RH pitching.


* Jay Bruce the eighth leading on base percentage among active players against left handed pitching.
A.) Fifth leading on base percentage against right handed pitching.
B.) Tenth in slugging percentage against LH pitching, number two in slugging percentage against RH pitching.
C.) 66 AB against LH pitching, 116 AB against RH pitching.

* Corey Patterson next to last in on base percentage among active players against left handed pitching.
A.) Last among active players in on base percentage among active players against right handed pitching.
B.) 35 AB against LH pitching, 164 AB against RH pitching
C.) Next to last in slugging percentage among active players against LH pitching, ninth among active players in slugging percentage against RH pitching.

Below is a list of the hitters performances against both left and right handed pitching.



Hitting Against Left Handed Pitching Hitting Against Right Handed Pitching
Jeff Keppinger Jolbert Cabrera
vs. Left .458 .554 1.012 vs. Right .429 .421 .850

Edwin Encarnacion David Ross
vs. Left .450 .544 .994 vs. Right .426 .500 .926

Brandon Phillips Adam Dunn
vs. Left .397 .675 1.072 vs. Right .386 .620 1.006

Adam Dunn Ken Griffey Jr.
vs. Left .385 .356 .741 vs. Right .368 .440 .808

Joey Votto Jay Bruce
vs. Left .365 .477 .842 vs. Right .358 .536 .894

David Ross Joey Votto
vs. Left .365 .314 .679 vs. Right .339 .455 .794

Ken Griffey Jr. Andy Phillips
vs. Left .308 .324 .632 vs. Right .333 .250 .583

Jay Bruce Paul Bako
vs. Left .297 .277 .574 vs. Right .315 .306 .621

Paul Bako Edwin Encarnacion
vs. Left .258 .460 .718 vs. Right .307 .472 .779

Javier Valentin Jeff Keppinger
vs. Left .250 .400 .650 vs. Right .305 .325 .630

Corey Patterson Javier Valentin
vs. Left .189 .143 .332 vs. Right .295 .321 .616

Andy Phillips Brandon Phillips
vs. Left .105 .211 .316 vs. Right .287 .384 .671

Jolbert Cabrera Corey Patterson
vs. Left .000 .000 .000 vs. Right .233 .378 .611


Follow up question:
Arguably, is the managers strategy, decisions and choices more critical with a team of mostly platoon type hitters ?

Hitting against left handed pitching
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&cat=onBasePct&season=2008&split=31&seasonType=2&type=reg

Hitting against right handed pitching
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=32&cat=onBasePct&order=true&type=reg

Chip R
07-21-2008, 05:26 PM
When you give these players' respective ranks, do you mean on the Reds or in the league?

flyer85
07-21-2008, 05:27 PM
Dunn has a career OPS ~830 against LHP. Phillips is doing worse against RHP this year than over his career(~730 OPS). The problem is that Dusty has one batting order for all situations and would do better to manipulate the lineup based upon which hand the opposing starter is using.

Rojo
07-21-2008, 05:35 PM
Not yet. A lefty infield bat would be nice. Another righty OF bat as well.

I'm wondering about Kevin Mench. His bat seemed to have disappeared but he's still got a .906 OPS against lefties. Cheap pick-up?

Spring~Fields
07-21-2008, 05:39 PM
When you give these players' respective ranks, do you mean on the Reds or in the league?

I never thought that through Chip, thanks for bringing that to my attention.

They are pulled from the EPSN OBP and SLG listings for 2008

When I listed them I focused on the Reds currently active players only for the 2008 season. I should have made that clear. My thought was coming from doug's comments that in the event that AD did leave that perhaps/possibly his numbers could be replaced by a platoon in LF, so I started thinking, "I wonder if a lot of the current Reds are actually platoon type hitters already"?

Anyway after looking, I have it in my head that the Reds are largely made up of what might be considered platoon players.

Of course this is not about AD, but, yes, the other players in general.

Hope that comes close to answering your question.

RedsManRick
07-21-2008, 06:37 PM
I know I've beat this drum before, and am certainly guilty of making the same mistake, but single season platoon splits aren't terribly informative. A 3 year look would be more appropriate and for the most part, there's either no enough data or there's a clear starter.

Spring~Fields
07-21-2008, 07:07 PM
I know I've beat this drum before, and am certainly guilty of making the same mistake, but single season platoon splits aren't terribly informative. A 3 year look would be more appropriate and for the most part, there's either no enough data or there's a clear starter.

That is why I posted the links, so that if one wanted to pursue three year splits they could if they prefer by clicking on the individual players. I also considered that some will not use stats at all, and might use their personal observations that they have made to answer the poll question.

Are The Reds A Roster Of Platoon Players ?

WVRedsFan
07-21-2008, 07:22 PM
It would appear so from those stats, but in the pst Griffey and Dunn were good against both leftys and rightys, so who knows?

Phillips has trouble with right handed pitching as does EdE. Bruce doesn't look so good against southpaws. I just know we need a lot of things to be contenders.

RedsManRick
07-21-2008, 07:49 PM
Another thing to consider is that nearly every hitter in baseball has a platoon split. The question is do we have any positions where we have legitimately better options based on the handedness of the pitcher. I would argue that the way the roster is constructed as of this moment, we don't.

I'd like to see Dickerson get a shot and think he could do well in a platoon and defensive replacement role. Corey Patterson currently has his roster spot. And you obviously need to drop Phillips to no higher than 6th against righties. His 400 OPS split is insane. Just flipping Votto and Phillips against righties would be a great first step for Dusty.

Spring~Fields
07-21-2008, 11:06 PM
Name Age
Jerry Hairston Jr. DL SS 32
Ryan Freel DL CF 32
Alex Gonzalez DL SS 31
Norris Hopper DL CF 29

Ken Griffey Jr. RF 38
Paul Bako C 36
Jolbert Cabrera SS 35
Javier Valentin C 32
David Ross C 31
Andy Phillips 1B 31
Corey Patterson CF 28
Jeff Keppinger SS 28





Jay Bruce CF 21
Joey Votto 1B 24
Edwin Encarnacion 3B 25
Brandon Phillips 2B 27
Adam Dunn LF 28

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/roster?team=cin

Spring~Fields
07-22-2008, 04:27 PM
I guess I should have said "roster of fodder"

:lol:

Thank's Bob, are we winning yet !

Mario-Rijo
07-23-2008, 03:57 AM
I know I've beat this drum before, and am certainly guilty of making the same mistake, but single season platoon splits aren't terribly informative. A 3 year look would be more appropriate and for the most part, there's either no enough data or there's a clear starter.

I agree with this. When looking at the experience of most of those listed I'd say it's too early at this point to make a decision. It's just a guess but I would think many major leaguers have similiar issues early on in their careers some of them fix the issue some do not and those who don't after given a fair shake need to be replaced for the most part. Griffey may very well be headed there but fortunately I don't think it's a matter worth discussing where he is concerned. Unless of course the FO does something extremely stupid and re-signs him. And Dunn does well enough to not really be concerned about it.

Spring~Fields
07-23-2008, 02:27 PM
A 3 year look would be more appropriate and for the most part, there's either no enough data or there's a clear starter.
There are more stats than just the three year BA, OBP, SLG and OPS to be considered. Plus three year stats are a historical past performance, that may have a career year among them, and are not necessarily indicative of what the rosters of players are in the current year.


The question is do we have any positions where we have legitimately better options based on the handedness of the pitcher.
If the answer is that the team does not have legitimately better options to play regularly against both handed, then the answer to the roster of platoon players would be, yes or worse.


I would argue that the way the roster is constructed as of this moment, we don't.
Then the roster would be constructed of bench or platoon players or worse.


When looking at the experience of most of those listed I'd say it's too early at this point to make a decision. It's just a guess but I would think many major leaguers have similar issues early on in their careers some of them fix the issue some do not and those who don't after given a fair shake need to be replaced for the most part. Griffey may very well be headed there

The majority of the roster is listed as having experience ranging from 4 years to 19 years.

Are The Reds A Roster Of Platoon Players
No - 61.54 %
Yes - 26.92 %
Perhaps - 11.54%

Platoon players are often considered a player that is deficient in some part of their game, something that an organization sees as sufficient enough to keep them from playing them as a regular. Some may even define them as backup players, role players, below league average players etc. Of course I don’t think that rookies would fall under any of the terms commonly used for categorizing players that various individuals use as their criteria to help define the various role players.

The list above contains 13 active position players and there is an additional list of players that are on the DL, 4 who might have played pushing other players such as Keppinger and Jerry Hairston Jr. to the bench or A. Phillips and Jolbert Cabrera to the minors.

DL Jerry Hairston Jr age 32, listed with 10 years experience, 3 different teams, playing infield positions of 2B, SS, 3B, and each of the outfield positions. After having played primarily 2B with Baltimore until the 2003-2004 seasons. 2B 527, 3B 13, SS 37, LF 106, CF 109, RF 54 games respectively, making it difficult to call Hairston Jr. a regular.

DL Ryan Freel age 32, listed with 6 year experience, 2 teams, playing positions, 2B 99, 3B 104, LF 70, CF 216, RF 106 games respectively, making it difficult to define Freel as a regular.

DL Alex Gonzalez age 31, listed with 10 years experience, 3 different teams, playing 1,094 games, all at SS, is a player that has been defined as a regular throughout his career, last played 110 games in 2007 personal reasons, and illness has made it difficult to define Gonzalez as a regular at this point in his career.

DL Norris Hopper age 29, listed with 2 years experience prior to 2008, having spent his tenure with 1 team, playing positions, LF 43, CF 64, RF 30 games respectively, part-time, making it difficult to define Hopper as a regular.

Paul Bako age 36, listed with 10 years experience, 10 different teams, 688 games a backup catcher, having played a maximum of 94 games in a season, Detroit 1998, making it difficult to define Bako as a regular.

Jolbert Cabrera age 35, listed with 7 years experience, with 4 different teams, playing 1B 31, 2B 135, 3B 71, SS 52, LF 124, CF 128, RF 66 games respectively, making it difficult to define Cabrera as a regular.

Javier Valentin age 32, listed with 9 years experience, 3 different teams, playing primarily as a part-time catcher with 430 games, with a maximum of 76 with Minnesota 1999, making it difficult to define Valentin as a regular.

Andy Phillips age 31, listed with 4 years experience, 3 different teams, playing 1B 172 games, 3B 29 games, with a maximum of 94 games played, NYY 2006, making it difficult to define A. Phillips as a regular.

David Ross age 31, listed with 6 years experience, 4 different teams, playing catcher 327 games on a part-time basis, with a maximum of games played 108 Cincinnati 2007, making it difficult to define Ross as a regular.

Corey Patterson age 28, listed with 8 years experience, 3 different teams, playing primarily as a CF 900 games, with a maximum of 157 games Chicago 2004, and games started ranging from 9, 24, 40, 79, 136, 111, 118, 122, 147, to 152 games, making it difficult to define Patterson as a regular.

Jeff Keppinger age 28, listed with 3 years experience, 3 different teams, playing 1B 8, 2B 36, 3B 34, SS 103, LF 2, RF 1, games respectively, making it difficult to define Keppinger as a regular.

Ken Griffey Jr. age 38 listed with 19 years experience, 2 different teams, playing 1B 2, LF 4, CF 2112, RF 221, games respectively. Age, injuries and diminished ranges and skills have brought a call from fans to play Griffey less or to move him to another team, making it difficult to define Griffey as a legitimate regular at this point in his career.

Edwin Encarnacion age 25, listed with 3 years experience, 1 team 2005-2008, playing 3B 393 games, starting games ranging from 55, 88, 109, to 134 games. Encarncion a much maligned 3B for his inconsistent hitting and fielding errors, his games started, fan complaints, makes it difficult to define Encarncion as a regular at this point in his young career.

Brandon Phillips age 27, listed with 6 years experience, 2 different teams, playing 2B 523, SS 5 games respectively. 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 partial seasons with Cleveland, the remainder with Cincinnati, Phillips at this point in his career would be considered a regular second baseman.

Rookie Jay Bruce age 21, listed with 0 years experience, 1 team, playing LF 10, CF 28, RF 27 games respectively, with 3 different range and zone factors in his young career with limited playing time, making it difficult to define Bruce as a regular at any outfield position or as player in just a partial rookie season.

Rookie Joey Votto age 24, listed with 1 year experience, 1 team, 24 games 2007, 15 starts at 1B, 6 starts LF, 98 games. 2008, playing 1B 93 games, 87 starts. Votto appears to be a regular 1B at this point in his very short and young career.

Adam Dunn age 28, listed with 7 years experience, 1 team, playing 1B 108, LF 924, RF 59 games respectively, is clearly defined as a starting regular LF.
Adam Dunn, Brandon Phillips are considered regulars status, and Joey Votto seems to have earned regular status.

3 regular status /13 active players - roster .230 pct roster regulars
3 regular status / 17 active with DL players - roster .177 pct roster regulars

Are The Reds A Roster Of Platoon Players
No - 61.54 %
Yes - 26.92 %
Perhaps - 11.54%

61.54 %, so then can we assume that the Reds do have the talent to win vs. being a losing team in the win loss record ? If in turn one argues that the team suffers from a lack of talent to win, then how can 62 % of the people decide that the team is not a roster of platoon players who are lacking in some part that leads the organization to play them irregularly, or perhaps eventually trade or let them go? Which could classify many of them as worse than platoon players.

Granted NO and a 61.54 % is a matter of interpretation and a very small sample. Also in all fairness I slanted the thread, to see how people perceived this team, but front loaded it with stats, then came back with the actual 25 man roster, adding an age bias factor, then here have brought in their actual playing experience. To see if I could sway voting, vs. individuals using their own criteria for determing just what type of players is this roster loaded with.

Having already known that most people blame the lack of talent on this team for the reason that the team does not have a winning record.