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View Full Version : Junior in Reds HOF



improbus
07-21-2008, 09:56 PM
We all know that Junior is a first ballot MLB HOF'er, but is he a Reds HOF'er?

Jack Burton
07-21-2008, 09:57 PM
No. Not enough good consistent years.

captainmorgan07
07-21-2008, 11:33 PM
Nope he'd be a first ballot mariners hall of famer but his years in Cincy have been not so hot. His one career year was his first in a red uniform.

Blue
07-21-2008, 11:34 PM
He will be.

gilpdawg
07-21-2008, 11:40 PM
He'll be in there just because of who he is, not necessarily how it worked out. I don't mind that. Nobody really takes team HOF's seriously anyway. It's just an excuse to have a museum. (and it's a really great museum)

Donder
07-22-2008, 07:31 AM
Is the question "should he be" or "will he be"? Either way I say yes. Fans will want him in just because of who he is. I think he should be in if for nothing else because of the interest he's created for this franchise for the past 9 years. Think about how unbearable the Reds would have been to watch some of those years if we couldn't go to the ballpark and see a legend.

mroby85
07-22-2008, 01:23 PM
He doesn't deserve it, but he'll be in based on name recognition imo.

BigRed75
07-22-2008, 01:45 PM
One of the best players to ever play the game spends 9 years in the Reds organization. He didn't put up his best numbers while he was here, he got injuried but during his tenure he represented the team as an All-Star, won Comeback Player of the Year, had his career saved via an experimental surgery and hit #600 without the assistance of steroids/HGH. Sometimes it's about more than just the numbers. Ken Griffey Jr. deserves to be in the Reds HOF. It's amazing how much this guy continues to be underappreciated.

44Magnum
07-22-2008, 01:46 PM
He sure doesn't deserve it!

mroby85
07-22-2008, 02:55 PM
One of the best players to ever play the game spends 9 years in the Reds organization. He didn't put up his best numbers while he was here, he got injuried but during his tenure he represented the team as an All-Star, won Comeback Player of the Year, had his career saved via an experimental surgery and hit #600 without the assistance of steroids/HGH. Sometimes it's about more than just the numbers. Ken Griffey Jr. deserves to be in the Reds HOF. It's amazing how much this guy continues to be underappreciated.

I get tired of hearing how underappreciated he is, let the Seattle fans appreciate him, they're the ones who saw all the good years. I have a hard time appreciating someone that had huge expectations and never even led this team to the playoffs.

Root Down
07-22-2008, 03:07 PM
One of the best players to ever play the game spends 9 years in the Reds organization. He didn't put up his best numbers while he was here, he got injuried but during his tenure he represented the team as an All-Star, won Comeback Player of the Year, had his career saved via an experimental surgery and hit #600 without the assistance of steroids/HGH. Sometimes it's about more than just the numbers. Ken Griffey Jr. deserves to be in the Reds HOF. It's amazing how much this guy continues to be underappreciated.

Seconded. A first ballot HOFer that played for Cincinnati for nearly a decade. That's a no brainer.

BlastFurnace
07-22-2008, 03:17 PM
Well...Cesar Geronimo made it...and while the argument can be made that Cesar was a better defensive CF'r than Junior during his tenure here, Junior...despite his injuries dwarfed Cesar's offensive numbers.

What it boils down for Griffey is that he did not meet fan expectations. In his 9 seasons with the Reds, he has:

AB: 3328
H: 895
R: 528
HR: 208
RBI: 597

He has averaged about 104 games per season. The most he ever played for us was in 2000 (145) and 2007 (144).

Let's compare another player who had injury problems with the Reds...Eric Davis's numbers:

AB: 3272
H: 886
R: 635
HR: 203
RBI: 615

Avg Games Played in Eric's 9 seasons: 109

Do those of you who believe Jr. is not a Reds HOF member believe the same about Eric Davis? If so, why?

Both played 9 complete seasons (Ken's 9th season is still not complete) with the Reds and had very similar numbers. Eric played on far better teams and Upper Management and Manager leadership than Ken has though.

BigRed75
07-22-2008, 03:44 PM
I get tired of hearing how underappreciated he is, let the Seattle fans appreciate him, they're the ones who saw all the good years. I have a hard time appreciating someone that had huge expectations and never even led this team to the playoffs.

That's such poor rationale. How is it only Junior's fault they didn't make the playoffs? Was he supposed to be a starting pitcher as well? The guy was sold a bad bill of goods. Bowden: "Yes, Junior. Come back home to Cincinnati. Take less money so we can get the starting pitchers we need."

You Junior haters crack me up. You cheer for below average players like Ryan Freel because he hustles (which is fine) but has little to no talent. Yet, you ridicule and criticize one of the most talented individuals to ever step on the playing field because he got hurt often from all the years his legs took a beating playing on astroturf. Might as well criticitze Lou Gehrig for dying too young.

Excellent post Blast Furnace. I was loooking at the same comparison prior to my first post.

mroby85
07-22-2008, 04:44 PM
I don't recall saying I hated junior at any point in time, in fact I like junior, but he just simply hasn't done that much in cincinnati to appreciate. He was absolutely great in Seattle, i'll be the first to admit that, but it really doesn't mean that much to me as a reds fan.

He got it!
07-22-2008, 05:10 PM
Yes - He will be in the Reds HOF. No question.

Fon Duc Tow
07-22-2008, 07:39 PM
I don't recall saying I hated junior at any point in time, in fact I like junior, but he just simply hasn't done that much in cincinnati to appreciate. He was absolutely great in Seattle, i'll be the first to admit that, but it really doesn't mean that much to me as a reds fan.


This is my feeling as well. Not sure why people can't tell the difference between the above, and "I hate Junior." :confused:

As for the comparison to Davis and Geronimo... you can't compare across decades like that. The offensive numbers are all inflated now, compared to back then.


I like Griffey. But in his time here, I just don't think he was part of any "machine," and I don't think he has done that great individually either. None of this is his fault, in my opinion, but I don't think he deserves the Reds Hall.

...he'll get in though. Marketing 101.

Donder
07-22-2008, 10:35 PM
15 players in Reds history have at least 140 home runs with the club. The only three not currently in the Reds Hall of Fame are Pete Rose, Adam Dunn, and Griffey. Only six players have more HR for the Reds than Griffey (208). While I'm not saying that alone should make him deserving of the Hall, I feel like that stat might put things into perspective a little bit.

In addition Griffey is #23 in RBI, #14 in runs, #22 in total bases, #15 in BB, and maybe most impressively, #4 in SLG. Naturally he'll probably move up in some of those categories before the year is over. I find it hard to keep someone with those numbers out, no matter who the person is.

BlastFurnace
07-22-2008, 11:29 PM
This is my feeling as well. Not sure why people can't tell the difference between the above, and "I hate Junior." :confused:

As for the comparison to Davis and Geronimo... you can't compare across decades like that. The offensive numbers are all inflated now, compared to back then.


I like Griffey. But in his time here, I just don't think he was part of any "machine," and I don't think he has done that great individually either. None of this is his fault, in my opinion, but I don't think he deserves the Reds Hall.

...he'll get in though. Marketing 101.

It's not a matter of comparing decades. These two players are more similar than we think. It's a matter of comparing two players who some people view very differently, but are very similar when it comes to injuries, expectations, etc. Fans and experts were comparing Eric to Willie Mays very early in his career, but he never lived up to the expectations because of his injuries. Griffey came here and there were World Series predictions, passing Hank predictions, etc. Needless to say, expectations were not met...again...because of injuries. Both of the players averaged around 105 games a year. The difference in comparison is that Davis had his injuries as a younger ballplayer, Griffey already had over a decade of stellar play before his injuries hit. Both players played hard and the injuries were due to hard play, not injuries unrelated to that.

It's not like Davis played in the Dead Ball Era. He played when others were hitting 30+ as well, and he rarely did that.

I just wonder why most people would have no problem with Eric getting in the Reds HOF and some will have a problem with Griffey.

Comparing Cesar to Griffey was soley based upon that Cesar was even considered a marginal ballplayer when he played. He was great defensively, incredibly average to below average offensively. He was important to the Reds in that they could hide his bat offensively in an incredible lineup, but needed his defense between Foster and Griffey Sr because he was able to catch many balls that Foster and Griffey couldn't get to. One could make the arguement that Geronimo saved as many runs as he didn't drive in, but that's for another discussion. I don't have a problem with Geronimo being in the Reds HOF, but I also don't have a problem with Griffey being in there as well.

Like I said before, I think the biggest problem most Reds have with Ken is that he didn't come here and do what all of us expected.

Fon Duc Tow
07-23-2008, 09:28 AM
It's not a matter of comparing decades. These two players are more similar than we think. It's a matter of comparing two players who some people view very differently, but are very similar when it comes to injuries, expectations, etc. Fans and experts were comparing Eric to Willie Mays very early in his career, but he never lived up to the expectations because of his injuries. Griffey came here and there were World Series predictions, passing Hank predictions, etc. Needless to say, expectations were not met...again...because of injuries. Both of the players averaged around 105 games a year. The difference in comparison is that Davis had his injuries as a younger ballplayer, Griffey already had over a decade of stellar play before his injuries hit. Both players played hard and the injuries were due to hard play, not injuries unrelated to that.

Agreed but Eric's resume with the Reds just looks a lot better. First, Eric was here at the peak of his career, Ken was not. Eric: World Series? Check. And the year he had in 1987 too.



It's not like Davis played in the Dead Ball Era. He played when others were hitting 30+ as well, and he rarely did that.

Eric's 30/30s would be more like 40/30s in GAB.




I just wonder why most people would have no problem with Eric getting in the Reds HOF and some will have a problem with Griffey.

see above




Comparing Cesar to Griffey was soley based upon that Cesar was even considered a marginal ballplayer when he played. He was great defensively, incredibly average to below average offensively. He was important to the Reds in that they could hide his bat offensively in an incredible lineup, but needed his defense between Foster and Griffey Sr because he was able to catch many balls that Foster and Griffey couldn't get to. One could make the arguement that Geronimo saved as many runs as he didn't drive in, but that's for another discussion. I don't have a problem with Geronimo being in the Reds HOF, but I also don't have a problem with Griffey being in there as well.

Three words for you:

big. red. machine.

I'm pretty sure they have let them all in at this point, haha. I agree though, Geronimo is pushing it... I would have Ken in there before him.



Like I said before, I think the biggest problem most Reds have with Ken is that he didn't come here and do what all of us expected.

I agree.

Ghosts of 1990
07-23-2008, 09:38 AM
He will be.

I agree, not that I agree that he should be, but he will be. Based on the accolades he's reached in a Reds uniform and the exposure it will get the Reds when he's inducted.

BlastFurnace
07-23-2008, 11:49 AM
Agreed but Eric's resume with the Reds just looks a lot better. First, Eric was here at the peak of his career, Ken was not. Eric: World Series? Check. And the year he had in 1987 too.



Eric's 30/30s would be more like 40/30s in GAB.




see above




Three words for you:

big. red. machine.

I'm pretty sure they have let them all in at this point, haha. I agree though, Geronimo is pushing it... I would have Ken in there before him.



I agree.

Even so, looking back at the numbers Eric put up, they are practically the same as Griffey's. Looking back at Eric's numbers, didn't he woefully fall short in fulfilling his Willie Mays destiny as Griffey fell short in fulfilling his homecoming? You are right that Eric's best year's were with the Reds, but it doesn't change the numbers comparison in that they are very similar while with the Reds.

Eric had his moments with the Reds. He had a nice 5 year run from 1986 through 1990 and the 1996 season. He also set the tone for the World Series victory with a HR off of Stewart. The impact he made in the World Series is the one thing he has done that Ken has not, but Eric also played on a much better Era of teams than Griffey did. Perhaps that gives Eric and edge over Griffey in his Reds tenure. I was strictly looking at the comparisons in numbers over the same 9 year time frame.

Riverfront/Cinergy was also a Home Run hitting park. I'm not so sure that Eric's numbers would be that different today than they were at the previous ballpark.

I agree in that all of the starters from the Big Red Machine should be in the Reds HOF. Perhaps the starting pitchers of Billingham and Norman should be as well.