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Reds Fanatic
07-21-2008, 11:13 PM
A young pitcher like this with shoulder trouble I would not worry about him pitching again this year.

From Fay:


Right-hander Daryl Thompson is on the DL at Triple-A Louisville with a shoulder strain.

"We don't think it's too serious," said Terry Reynolds, the Reds director of player development. "We think with rest and rehab he'll be able to pitch again this year."

A shoulder problem with any pitcher has to be a reason for concern, particularly one like Thompson who has has shoulder surgery two years ago.

Thompson, 22, hasn't pitched since his July 13 start. He's 5-0 with a 2.95 ERA at Louisville. He started the year at Double-A Chattanooga was went 3-2 with a 1.76 ERA.

mbgrayson
07-22-2008, 12:14 AM
Sorry to hear this.

What were his Louisville pitch counts this year? I notice that Dusty kept him under 100 pitches in each of his MLB starts.

Kingspoint
07-22-2008, 12:21 AM
Good.

He's been going strong since Mid-February, and it's a natural rest for his arm at this point of his rehabilitation, which is really where he still is at. 2 more starts and he would have reached last year's totals, but if you add in the Spring Traing starts he had this year compared to the year before then he's already pitched as much as he did last year and at a much higher level where the pitches are more difficult to make.

It's a nice precautionary move to make sure that his arm develops at a proper progression from where it's been each of the last 4 years.

This bodes well that the REDS are serious about taking good care of him.

I'm sure they regret moving him up to the Majors, but it's nice to see that they're not so self-centered as to quickly admit that it was the wrong thing to do when they moved him back down.

I was really hoping that he wouldn't surpass 160 IP this year.

2003......46IP
2004.......0IP
2005......53IP
2006......20IP
2007....133IP
2008....115IP....so far

He'll come back after this DL stint and pitch through the end of the season and stretch out his arm some more. It would also make sense for him to start next season in AAA and come up after May for the rest of the season, if he's ready at the time, and if not, it won't hurt him to have more AAA seasoning while building up his arm strength for a 190 IP season.

dougdirt
07-22-2008, 12:21 AM
Sorry to hear this.

What were his Louisville pitch counts this year? I notice that Dusty kept him under 100 pitches in each of his MLB starts.

Between 110 and 115 although he didn't always get that high.

ChatterRed
07-22-2008, 09:05 AM
I think I'm going to write this guy off. Shoulder surgery two years ago, and now this. I see him as a career injured player.

I wouldn't be penciling him into the Reds starting rotation.

Grande Donkey
07-22-2008, 09:53 AM
Daryl Thompson seems like the perfect long reliever/spot starter for the Reds the next couple years and then maybe move him into the 4/5 spot if he can stay healthy. Great way to get him ML experience, strengthen the shoulder, and limit his innings to hopefully avoid shoulder problems.

lollipopcurve
07-22-2008, 09:56 AM
Daryl Thompson seems like the perfect long reliever/spot starter for the Reds the next couple years and then maybe move him into the 4/5 spot if he can stay healthy. Great way to get him ML experience, strengthen the shoulder, and limit his innings to hopefully avoid shoulder problems.

Interesting idea -- I like it.

OesterPoster
07-22-2008, 10:12 AM
I think I'm going to write this guy off. Shoulder surgery two years ago, and now this. I see him as a career injured player.

I wouldn't be penciling him into the Reds starting rotation.

Wow. Jump to conclusions often?

Will M
07-22-2008, 10:55 AM
Daryl Thompson seems like the perfect long reliever/spot starter for the Reds the next couple years and then maybe move him into the 4/5 spot if he can stay healthy. Great way to get him ML experience, strengthen the shoulder, and limit his innings to hopefully avoid shoulder problems.

i had thought something similar. the Reds really need someone in the pen who can go more than one inning. Thompson in middle relief for 2009 was my idea.

there is a theory that small framed right handers are best as relievers.

camisadelgolf
07-22-2008, 10:57 AM
i had thought something similar. the Reds really need someone in the pen who can go more than one inning. Thompson in middle relief for 2009 was my idea.

there is a theory that small framed right handers are best as relievers.

I'm glad you weren't Pedro Martinez's or Greg Maddux's manager. ;)

Will M
07-22-2008, 02:01 PM
I'm glad you weren't Pedro Martinez's or Greg Maddux's manager. ;)

i am not saying i buy the thoery. just that it exists.

thompson is small of frame and only two years off surgery. having him pitch middle relief for a while would be fine imo. teams like the twins and dodgers have started rookies in the pen for years. you had to prove you could get big league hitters out before you got a coveted rotation spot.

camisadelgolf
07-22-2008, 02:53 PM
i am not saying i buy the thoery. just that it exists.

thompson is small of frame and only two years off surgery. having him pitch middle relief for a while would be fine imo. teams like the twins and dodgers have started rookies in the pen for years. you had to prove you could get big league hitters out before you got a coveted rotation spot.

Yeah, I was just having fun. The Reds have already said that they're keeping a close eye on Thompson's innings, and if the idea is to keep Thompson as healthy as possible, I think having a once-every-five-days routine is more beneficial as opposed to not knowing which days he'll pitch.

By the way, for those keeping score at home, this is post #1700000.

SteelSD
07-23-2008, 12:52 AM
So you rush a guy who's not ready and then he throws nearly 20 pitches per Inning at the MLB level (19.9) despite previous shoulder issues and now he goes on the DL with a shoulder issue.

Ok.

kaldaniels
07-23-2008, 01:00 AM
So you rush a guy who's not ready and then he throws nearly 20 pitches per Inning at the MLB level (19.9) despite previous shoulder issues and now he goes on the DL with a shoulder issue.

Ok.

The rushing Thompson remark (I assume you mean AA up to MLB) doesn't really have a direct effect on his shoulder. Do you mean something else by that (returning too soon from injury?)

The 19.9 pitch per inning level does nothing for me because he only pitched a few starts, never more than 100 pitches. I have no complaints about that.

Kingspoint
07-23-2008, 01:45 AM
So you rush a guy who's not ready and then he throws nearly 20 pitches per Inning at the MLB level (19.9) despite previous shoulder issues and now he goes on the DL with a shoulder issue.

Ok.

I haven't been wrong about anything I've said about Arroyo, Harang and Thompson all year. I agree with you that it was a mistake to bring him up as I said also that it was at the time.

While there could easily be more stress on the arm throwing 20 pitches per inning at the Major League level versus the AAA level because of what a pitcher might attempt to do on every pitch, I don't believe any permanent damage was done.

Fortunately, and wisely, Jockety and his advisors stopped Thompson after a few starts before any damage could be done. While Thompson never threw over 100 pitches, I mentioned at the time of his first start that he shouldn't have thrown over 90 pitches and that it was at his 90th pitch that he completely lost all strength in his arm. I also noticed that Baker recognized this as he went out and spoke to him immediately after the first loss of velocity of his throws. This move by Dusty increased my appreciation and respect for him.

Dusty also did the same thing in his next two starts, but in his 2nd start, Dusty left him in for 9 more pitches after the velocity went away instead of removing him like he did the first game. Leaving him in could have been an instruction from above to see how he handles himself when he loses his strength. They took a look, and then they stopped.

Thompson's last start was strenuous from the get-go and Thompson didn't have the arm strength from the very first pitch. They left him in there for another 90 pitches and they got to see what he pitched like when his arm was tired.

Then wisely, they sent him to AAA, and after 2 starts in AAA and a WHIP of over 1.500, they decided, FOR PRECAUTIONARY REASONS ONLY (AND IT'S THIS TYPE OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THOMPSON, ARROYO, AND HARANG THAT I'VE BEEN RIGHT ABOUT ALL YEAR,......the decided to shut him down for a while as he's pitched steadily and effectively since the time pitchers reported to Spring Training in mid-February. He's merely hit a wall, and they are protecting him to make sure that nothing bad happens,....that he doesn't hurt something else by trying to make a correction in his pitches. His arm is going to get some rest and he'll be back pitching this year as effectively as he pitched before he got called up to the Majors.

Also, Thompson won't be starting the year in the Majors next season either, no matter how well he pitches next Spring. The wisdom Jockety has shown with Harang and Thompson over the last month shows me they're being very careful with them and see them both as important assets to the ballclub.

M2
07-23-2008, 08:55 PM
The rushing Thompson remark (I assume you mean AA up to MLB) doesn't really have a direct effect on his shoulder. Do you mean something else by that (returning too soon from injury?)

The 19.9 pitch per inning level does nothing for me because he only pitched a few starts, never more than 100 pitches. I have no complaints about that.

Sure it has an effect. You take a kid who started the 2007 season in low A, you promote him all the way up to the majors at age 22 (an age where pretty much no kid is ready to handle major league hitters) by mid 2008 and suddenly he's throwing more pitches because the hitters won't bite like they did two levels ago and then he's trying to put more moxie than he's got on every pitch so he doesn't get hammered and, suddenly, ouch.

It's not just the Reds. Almost every organization does this, but after watching it replayed time and again for decades I find it the least surprising news in the world. Hopefully it's just a pinch or fatigue, but over-promotion followed by injury is the most common tale in baseball.

kaldaniels
07-23-2008, 10:58 PM
Sure it has an effect. You take a kid who started the 2007 season in low A, you promote him all the way up to the majors at age 22 (an age where pretty much no kid is ready to handle major league hitters) by mid 2008 and suddenly he's throwing more pitches because the hitters won't bite like they did two levels ago and then he's trying to put more moxie than he's got on every pitch so he doesn't get hammered and, suddenly, ouch.

It's not just the Reds. Almost every organization does this, but after watching it replayed time and again for decades I find it the least surprising news in the world. Hopefully it's just a pinch or fatigue, but over-promotion followed by injury is the most common tale in baseball.

What I saying was that pitch count is what matters, not what level you throw them at. Sure you could argue MLB pitches are thrown under higher stress I suppose, but I'd say that is not a huge issue.

SteelSD
07-23-2008, 11:31 PM
What I saying was that pitch count is what matters, not what level you throw them at. Sure you could argue MLB pitches are thrown under higher stress I suppose, but I'd say that is not a huge issue.

The guy didn't display an actual "Out" pitch in his three starts, which is why he threw about 20 pitches per Inning. When a 22-year old kid figures out that MLB hitters aren't going to bite on the junk he's serving them, you don't think that he's going to try to find another gear? Workload intensity matters.

kaldaniels
07-23-2008, 11:43 PM
The guy didn't display an actual "Out" pitch in his three starts, which is why he threw about 20 pitches per Inning. When a 22-year old kid figures out that MLB hitters aren't going to bite on the junk he's serving them, you don't think that he's going to try to find another gear? Workload intensity matters.

I'm betting that while Thompson was tearing it up in AA he wasn't holding back. That said, sure...he may have tossed a wrinkle in there while in the bigs, but that is pure and I mean pure speculation. Maybe he stuck with what brought him to the bigs. Maybe not. And if he did, who is to say that is what aggravated his shoulder. Only DT and the coaching staff if that, know for sure. To speculate that being in the bigs led to the stint on the DL is just that, speculation.

Kingspoint
07-23-2008, 11:44 PM
Sure it has an effect. You take a kid who started the 2007 season in low A, you promote him all the way up to the majors at age 22 (an age where pretty much no kid is ready to handle major league hitters) by mid 2008 and suddenly he's throwing more pitches because the hitters won't bite like they did two levels ago and then he's trying to put more moxie than he's got on every pitch so he doesn't get hammered and, suddenly, ouch.



I agree with that, which is why I said to myself, "What are they thinking? They're going to ruin this kid's potential." Hopefully, no damage was done. I don't think it was. I'm not even going to get into the mental aspect of rushing him through that many levels so quickly.

kaldaniels
07-23-2008, 11:46 PM
I agree with that, which is why I said to myself, "What are they thinking? They're going to ruin this kid's potential." Hopefully, no damage was done. I don't think it was. I'm not even going to get into the mental aspect of rushing him through that many levels so quickly.

I agree on the mental aspect. That can be tough for people.

Kingspoint
07-23-2008, 11:47 PM
I agree on the mental aspect. That can be tough for people.


He might need Tony Soprano's shrink after this.

RedlegJake
07-24-2008, 07:32 AM
The mental thing is overblown imo, at least for Thompson. He saw that he COULD get hitters out in his first two starts, and that he still has work to do to be able to consistently do that. I do agree that rushing him may have contributed to his shoulder if he started over throwing to try and force the ball past hitters. Mentally, though, this isn't a case of Dumatrait or Reith, where he was slaughtered and kept getting led out for the sacrifice time and again. Bringing him up may have been a tad rash but the Reds sent him down promptly. If he was damaged mentally by that then he's too fragile to ever be a good pitcher anyway. If his shoulder is ok then I think the brief foray up will help him realize what he has to do and give him an idea to work toward bettering himself - it'll also wash away any delusions he has when he's overpowering a minor league lineup that he's "arrived".

M2
07-24-2008, 09:23 AM
I'm betting that while Thompson was tearing it up in AA he wasn't holding back.

There's an ocean of difference between not holding back and trying to throw pitches you can't throw. Kids hurt themselves when they start searching for stuff they haven't got. We've all seen it more times than we can count.

How many pitches like that does it take to jostle something loose? Depends on the kid. It could be as little as one. Thompson was working harder when he went to the majors, not just on workload, but on each pitch. BTW, that sort of thing has a way of screwing up what a kid was doing well beforehand even if it doesn't injure him.

Now, we can't prove that the promotion is what caused this ailment. We don't get to crosscheck it against an alternate reality in which the Reds don't over-promote the kid. Yet after years of having this exact same discussion about more kids than I care to remember, I'm not going to ignore the maddening persistence of this trend.

Kingspoint
07-24-2008, 10:11 PM
The mental thing is overblown imo, at least for Thompson. He saw that he COULD get hitters out in his first two starts, and that he still has work to do to be able to consistently do that. I do agree that rushing him may have contributed to his shoulder if he started over throwing to try and force the ball past hitters. Mentally, though, this isn't a case of Dumatrait or Reith, where he was slaughtered and kept getting led out for the sacrifice time and again. Bringing him up may have been a tad rash but the Reds sent him down promptly. If he was damaged mentally by that then he's too fragile to ever be a good pitcher anyway. If his shoulder is ok then I think the brief foray up will help him realize what he has to do and give him an idea to work toward bettering himself - it'll also wash away any delusions he has when he's overpowering a minor league lineup that he's "arrived".


Well said.

OnBaseMachine
07-28-2008, 05:15 PM
I got a Daryl Thompson update from Terry Reynolds, the club's director of player development. It sounds like the shoulder is coming along well.

"He's about halfway through his throwing program," Reynolds said. "Everything's been very position. He should be rejoining the rotation in the next 10 days or so."

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a9adeed6f-f4d4-4bfd-b81c-713718154a9b&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com