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RedLegSuperStar
07-25-2008, 10:24 AM
Reds undecided with Deadline nearing (http://http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080724&content_id=3188039&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin)


Reds undecided with Deadline nearing
Club has many pieces to deal, but .500, Wild Card is a goal
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com


CINCINNATI -- July 31 isn't just a date on the calendar. In Major League Baseball, it comes with a big flashing red light and alert sirens.

No one in the Reds clubhouse understands the meaning of July 31 more than reliever David Weathers. As of Thursday, the deadline where teams can make trades without needing players to clear waivers is exactly one week away.

"Where am I going?" a smiling Weathers has often asked reporters.

A 38-year-old right-hander and a veteran of 17 seasons with nine teams, Weathers knows to always keep his suitcase handy. He's been traded four times in midseason -- twice at deadline time.

On July 31, 1996, Weathers was dealt from the Marlins to the Yankees for Australian right-hander Mark Hutton. On July 30, 2001, Weathers went from the Brewers to the Cubs in a four-player trade.

Weathers is in the final year of a two-year contract that's paying him $2.75 million this season. A likely free agent this offseason, his versatility as a closer and setup man -- in combination with his postseason experience -- has made him marketable.

"Whatever happens, happens -- there's nothing I can do about it," said Weathers, who is 2-5 with 3.35 ERA, and owner of a 1.93 ERA over his last 19 games. "I just know there are a few teams I can decline. Other than that, I have to grin and bear it."

Weathers, who sports a 4.43 home ERA -- compared to 2.18 on the road -- said he doesn't remember which teams were included in his limited no-trade clause.

"If [management] just wants to trade people for the sake of trading people, I would say I'd be at the top of the list, just because everyone is looking for bullpen help," Weathers said. "I've got experience and all that good stuff. I've pitched three different years in New York. If you can pitch in that place, they figure you can pitch anywhere."

Despite having been out of contention most of the season, rumors have been light surrounding the Reds. A fire sale is far from a guarantee. Cincinnati has played better in recent weeks, and is three games below .500, at 50-53. However, the club is still nine games out in the National League Wild Card race.

To this point, Reds general manager Walt Jocketty has not fully signaled his intentions.

"I've gotten more calls the last few days, which is typical of this time of year," Jocketty said. "A lot of it is really a lot about nothing. Clubs will call and run different scenarios by you. A lot of times, it's not considered. We're looking to improve our club not only for this year, but next year."

In other words, don't look for the Reds to wipe out their farm system to land a rent-a-player for a stretch run. And don't look for a full-fledged salary dump, either.

"We're still close enough in the Wild Card race," Jocketty said. "We still have a good, long winning streak ahead. We're getting some injured people back in a week or two. Who knows what can happen?"

Unlike Weathers, starting pitcher Bronson Arroyo is locked into a long-term contract. Arroyo is signed through 2010, with $25 million remaining on his deal and a club option for 2011, but has also been in the rumor swirl.

There have been reports that the Yankees have interest in Arroyo. The right-hander, who came to the Reds from the Red Sox in a March 2006 trade for Wily Mo Pena, has also kept abreast of the deadline situation and heard the rumors.

Arroyo doesn't want to go anywhere.

"I obviously hated to come here when I got traded -- now, being here for three years, I'm comfortable in my surroundings," Arroyo said. "I love the city. I love my teammates. We haven't put a stretch together and won as much as I'd like to. But I feel a vibe here that the ball is rolling. We have an opportunity to do some things we haven't done here in the last three years."

Ironically, Arroyo has only increased his worth to other teams lately. In his last five starts, he is 5-0 with a 3.19 ERA. Overall, he is 9-7 with a 5.60 ERA, bloated in part because of two bad outings.

"When I see [Reds owner] Bob Castellini, I feel like it's a guy that wants to win here," said Arroyo, who won a World Series title with Boston in 2004. "I don't think he's ready to say, 'That's it, I've put in as much as I want to put in,' and start ripping pieces apart. I hope the vibe I get from him is for real. If it's not, I have another surprise coming my way."

With 13 potential free agents this winter, the Reds have other chips, should they decide to sell off. Jeremy Affeldt is signed to a one-year, $3 million contract and should be drawing attention as a left-handed reliever. Adam Dunn and Ken Griffey Jr. have significantly more complicated situations, and reportedly have drawn scant interest.

Dunn, who is making $13 million before looming free agency, is on a tear lately, with a Majors-leading 76 walks buffering his .237 average. Tied for the Major League lead with 29 homers, he has a limited no-trade protection of 10 teams he can refuse. Griffey is in the final year of his nine-year contract but has full no-trade protection and a $16.5 million club option for next season as leverage.

Saying, "We're not going to lose anymore," Castellini replaced former GM Wayne Krivsky with Jocketty in April. Dumping players now when .500 is within reach would seem to run contrary to his previous edict.

"A lot of people kind of say, 'Why do they want a record this year? Why is that such a big deal?'" Weathers said. "Well, it is a big deal. You have to walk before you crawl. We need to see if we can have a winning record. If they want to do that, then I don't think they move me at all."

It appeared the front office held finishing with a winning record in as high esteem as the players did.

"It's important to get to .500," Jocketty said. "If we can get to .500 and keep trying to improve, we get to have a winning season. It just shows progress and that's what we need to do."

Falls City Beer
07-25-2008, 10:29 AM
I think Walt's kind of talking out of both sides of his mouth. The Reds would have to go 40-19 in their remaining games to even get in the Wild Card discussion. That's an astronomical record to achieve in the remaining 60 games. How many times in this franchise's history have they played that kind of ball?

top6
07-25-2008, 10:34 AM
The GM can change, but this team never, ever has a plan.

lollipopcurve
07-25-2008, 10:34 AM
If Jocketty makes a trade, it'll be our prospects for a major leaguer -- that's my guess. I have a hard time seeing this team undertaking any significant rebuild under Castellini. Everything's going to be pointed at the current year of the following year. Two years out does not exist.

Falls City Beer
07-25-2008, 10:38 AM
The GM can change, but this team never, ever has a plan.

How is this really clear from this article?

And even though I disliked Wayne's plan, I think he had one.

oneupper
07-25-2008, 10:39 AM
I think Walt's kind of talking out of both sides of his mouth. The Reds would have to go 40-19 in their remaining games to even get in the Wild Card discussion. That's an astronomical record to achieve in the remaining 60 games. How many times in this franchise's history have they played that kind of ball?

It's late and that also means there isn't a lot of money to be saved THIS year trading contracts. Trade Weathers, for example, and save maybe $1 million and get a "prospect" who in all likelihood is not as good as a draft pick compensation.

Reds may do nothing, not because they think they can win, but because there may not be any deals that make sense for them.

fearofpopvol1
07-25-2008, 10:44 AM
I think Walt's kind of talking out of both sides of his mouth. The Reds would have to go 40-19 in their remaining games to even get in the Wild Card discussion. That's an astronomical record to achieve in the remaining 60 games. How many times in this franchise's history have they played that kind of ball?

What do you expect him to say though? The team's done, we're going to rebuild? They're trying to get more people to come to the park, not less.

Falls City Beer
07-25-2008, 10:49 AM
What do you expect him to say though? The team's done, we're going to rebuild? They're trying to get more people to come to the park, not less.

I'm not criticizing him for what he said. I think it's pretty cagey. I guess I got used to Wayne's inscrutable mumbling and DanO's nonsensical rambling. Walt's directness is refreshing.

fearofpopvol1
07-25-2008, 11:01 AM
I really think Walt is in between a rock and a hard place. Outside of Arroyo, I don't think there are many players the Reds can trade that will bring much value unless you trade your young core players, which would be pretty backwards unless it was some huge haul (not likely). Bob probably still thinks the Reds can compete this year, but I don't think he'll force Walt to deal for a rental (or multiple rentals) either.

I would not at all be suprised to see the Reds stand pat, even if it is a losing season.

Spring~Fields
07-25-2008, 11:06 AM
Saying, "We're not going to lose anymore," Castellini replaced former GM Wayne Krivsky with Jocketty in April. Dumping players now when .500 is within reach would seem to run contrary to his previous edict.
:sleep:


"We're still close enough in the Wild Card race," Jocketty said. "We still have a good, long winning streak ahead. We're getting some injured people back in a week or two. Who knows what can happen?"

:clap:

Interesting how a Walt Jocketty with years of success still speaks with a lot of confidence in Wayne Krivsky’s player’s. Even with the Reds standing pat to date.

RedsManRick
07-25-2008, 11:26 AM
I'm really tired of seeing our options described as either trying to win or slashing payroll. Trading away would be FA is not about payroll. It's about maximizing the value of an asset for the sake of building the organization. Standing pat tells me that we're barely on this side of Houston in understanding our place in the league this year -- or it tells me that Jocketty is more worried about making it look like we're trying to win than actually building a winner.

Johnny Footstool
07-25-2008, 11:39 AM
Same old jalopy, just a different coat of paint.

RedlegJake
07-25-2008, 11:45 AM
I don't mind standing pat if the alternative is stupid trades. Unless other teams are willing to pay a solid price for Reds offerings why trade? Move Weathers just for a prospect who isn't? Trade Arroyo merely for salary relief without a plan to replace him in the rotation? Trading FA's to be merely for the sake of moving them and getting back players that are no better? It is so easy to propose deals that are one sided but getting the opposing GM to agree is a bit harder. Things have flipped upside down in the trading world. REAL prospects who are close are valued very highly and hard to pry away while veterans making large chunks are under valued. Unless you are in the Brewers position and willing to sacrifice top prospects for a Sabathia rental or having a terrible season like the Padres and in a sell mode, the deadline is less meaningful. Teams like the Reds and the Rox want to get better next year without demolishing their record this year. Dunn is the only FA to be that the Reds couldn't easily replace from baseball's winter scrap heap of unsigned/released players or re-sign at a reasonable rate.

REDREAD
07-25-2008, 12:04 PM
What do you expect him to say though? The team's done, we're going to rebuild? They're trying to get more people to come to the park, not less.


Yes, I agree with that. There's always a lot of criticism about the Reds never articulating a plan, but it's just dumb marketing to come out and say something like "Well, if we can get good prospects for Dunn, Arroyo, Weathers.. they are gone".. Even if you substitute "veterans" for the specific name, you are going to hurt ticket sales.

Remember after the 2003 firesale when the Reds were trying to dump every player making any money.. John Allen's imfamous response "We are not throwing in the towel"..

All Clubs do BS like this. They want to keep the fan hope alive.

I'm sure Walt has a plan. We are going to have to watch his actions over the next year to figure out what it is.. He's not going to come out and tell us..

REDREAD
07-25-2008, 12:09 PM
I'm really tired of seeing our options described as either trying to win or slashing payroll. Trading away would be FA is not about payroll. It's about maximizing the value of an asset for the sake of building the organization. Standing pat tells me that we're barely on this side of Houston in understanding our place in the league this year -- or it tells me that Jocketty is more worried about making it look like we're trying to win than actually building a winner.

That's a good point, but let's remember that trading Arroyo or a relief pitcher has its price in the short term. Someone has to pick up those innings. A kid will have to be called up or someone like Ricky Stone used. There's also potential damage to the ticket base. If Jr and Arroyo were traded tommorrow, you can bet that is going to hurt attendence short term and some fans perception of the team. If Dunn walks as a FA, the Reds can shrug their shoulders and say they tried to sign him but he was too greedy. That's a lot more palatable to the fans.. Makes no sense to trade Dunn unless the return is meaningful.

In other words, it makes no sense to simply give any player away, even Weathers. There's money to pay for these guys. Don't help out a contender unless it helps your own team too, because those vets have value to our team in the short term.

OnBaseMachine
07-25-2008, 12:09 PM
I'm going to be deeply disappointed if David Weathers is still a Red after July 31st.

Raisor
07-25-2008, 12:10 PM
I'm going to be deeply disappointed if David Weathers is still a Red after July 31st.

Ditto Josh Fogg

princeton
07-25-2008, 12:12 PM
I think Walt's kind of talking out of both sides of his mouth. The Reds would have to go 40-19 in their remaining games to even get in the Wild Card discussion. That's an astronomical record to achieve in the remaining 60 games. How many times in this franchise's history have they played that kind of ball?


we get to play a lot of dreadful teams.

maybe it's the year to be not-so-bad.

RedsManRick
07-25-2008, 12:27 PM
That's a good point, but let's remember that trading Arroyo or a relief pitcher has its price in the short term. Someone has to pick up those innings. A kid will have to be called up or someone like Ricky Stone used.

Give them to Matt Belisle. I know he's not part of the future, but he's perfectly serviceable in eating innings. I really don't care if we have to give innings to a AAAA guy if it makes us a better team in the future.


There's also potential damage to the ticket base. If Jr and Arroyo were traded tommorrow, you can bet that is going to hurt attendence short term and some fans perception of the team.

If Dunn walks as a FA, the Reds can shrug their shoulders and say they tried to sign him but he was too greedy. That's a lot more palatable to the fans.. Makes no sense to trade Dunn unless the return is meaningful.

In other words, it makes no sense to simply give any player away, even Weathers. There's money to pay for these guys. Don't help out a contender unless it helps your own team too, because those vets have value to our team in the short term.

Short term pain for long term gain. Good attendance is the result of wining lots of ballgames, not by keeping your mediocre roster in tact in the name of fighting the good fight. This isn't AA ball; Fans come out to see a winner. The chase for 600 is over. Sure, a few more fans will show up to cheer on players they know and like. But that's peanuts to the number of fans that show up to cheer for a winning ball club. A mediocre team down the stretch is a mediocre team down the stretch. If they really care about boosting attendance, they need to do everything in their power to build a playoff caliber team -- not worry about the color of the pig's lipstick.

We've spent the last 7 years worrying about this summer's attendance. If we had bitten the bullet for a few years and actually built a winner instead of spinning our wheels, attendance would be at least 50% higher today.

I'm not advocating flipping Weathers for some 22 year old A baller who has a 1% chance of throwing a big league inning some day. But when team's are talking about George Sherrill as the big catch of the trading season, I can't help but think we could get some real value for a package of David Weathers and Jeremy Affeldt. If the deal isn't there, it isn't there. But when I hear that we're not even pursuing trades, just sitting back and waiting for the phone to ring, it drives me nuts. We're so busy trying to make it look like we're trying to win that we're not actually doing anything about it. Our PR office (announcers) are routinely tearing down the value of our best trading assets. It's ridiculous.

The Reds' FO needs to stop worrying about what fans will think and start doing things that will result in the team winning more games.
Fans only complain about how the sausage is made when it tastes like crap. At the end of the day the FO needs to stop talking about winning -- that convinces nobody. It's not how loudly you cry, it's whether or not the wolf actually shows up.

durl
07-25-2008, 12:34 PM
I'll be content either way. Standing pat wouldn't break my heart. Honestly, I'd get a kick out of seeing this current team end up with a winning season.

I also understand the need to continue to build this team. If a deal comes along that makes the Reds better next year, I wouldn't blame Jocketty for making the deal.

fearofpopvol1
07-25-2008, 01:09 PM
I'm going to be deeply disappointed if David Weathers is still a Red after July 31st.

Initially, that's how I felt too, but then someone pointed out that he may actually qualify for a type B free agent. I'm thinking the compensation pick may be more attractive.

fearofpopvol1
07-25-2008, 01:12 PM
I'm really tired of seeing our options described as either trying to win or slashing payroll. Trading away would be FA is not about payroll. It's about maximizing the value of an asset for the sake of building the organization. Standing pat tells me that we're barely on this side of Houston in understanding our place in the league this year -- or it tells me that Jocketty is more worried about making it look like we're trying to win than actually building a winner.

While I agree with the basic premise of this, I also don't believe in trading players away for fodder prospects. Outside of Arroyo (and maybe Ross), I just don't see any of the big league players bringing much back in return.

RedEye
07-25-2008, 01:21 PM
I really think Walt is in between a rock and a hard place. Outside of Arroyo, I don't think there are many players the Reds can trade that will bring much value unless you trade your young core players, which would be pretty backwards unless it was some huge haul (not likely). Bob probably still thinks the Reds can compete this year, but I don't think he'll force Walt to deal for a rental (or multiple rentals) either.

I would not at all be suprised to see the Reds stand pat, even if it is a losing season.

I get this feeling, too. I think the advantage of having Walt as GM is that he and Bob speak the same language. While Kriv couldn't really convince Cast to calm down and wait long term (see Trade, The), Jocketty has the charisma and the respect necessary to bide his time. Whether or not you like a GM, it is good when that GM is able to convince the owner that his plan is the right one... because usually any GM is going to have a better plan than an impatient owner.

Spring~Fields
07-25-2008, 01:25 PM
Ditto Josh Fogg

Ditto Patterson and Bako, the one month wonders

IslandRed
07-25-2008, 01:35 PM
I'm really tired of seeing our options described as either trying to win or slashing payroll. Trading away would be FA is not about payroll. It's about maximizing the value of an asset for the sake of building the organization. Standing pat tells me that we're barely on this side of Houston in understanding our place in the league this year -- or it tells me that Jocketty is more worried about making it look like we're trying to win than actually building a winner.

Or it may reflect a good understanding of our place on the success cycle, and of the market.

The Reds are not in position to win now, but we are also not an aging team that needs to tear it down and start over. Looking at our roster, with most of our best players being young, we look like a team that did the teardown 2-3 years ago (even though it never really happened) and is on the way back up, except we still have a few expensive veterans around. To my way of thinking, neither the "win now" nor "full rebuild" mindsets apply. We're a team on the way up that needs to reconfigure some things and add some pieces, and there are lots of ways to do that. It would be Jocketty-like to pull off a deal for an established player at the deadline with the primary intent of improving next year's club.

We should trade the pending free agents if the offers are good enough to beat whatever we'd expect to receive in draft-pick compensation for letting them walk. But if the offers don't measure up, then play it out in the offseason. Until then, keep playing ball.

redsmetz
07-25-2008, 01:41 PM
Or it may reflect a good understanding of our place on the success cycle, and of the market.

The Reds are not in position to win now, but we are also not an aging team that needs to tear it down and start over. Looking at our roster, with most of our best players being young, we look like a team that did the teardown 2-3 years ago (even though it never really happened) and is on the way back up, except we still have a few expensive veterans around. To my way of thinking, neither the "win now" nor "full rebuild" mindsets apply. We're a team on the way up that needs to reconfigure some things and add some pieces, and there are lots of ways to do that. It would be Jocketty-like to pull off a deal for an established player at the deadline with the primary intent of improving next year's club.

We should trade the pending free agents if the offers are good enough to beat whatever we'd expect to receive in draft-pick compensation for letting them walk. But if the offers don't measure up, then play it out in the offseason. Until then, keep playing ball.

Or perhaps the "tear down" did in fact happen. This team is dramatically different than it was at the outset of 2006 when the new ownership came in (late, by the way, having missed the important off-season. I've argued for a while now that we don't necessarily have to be an "either/or" situation - we're either buying or selling; we're either tearing down or we're not. I'm inclined to think that a "both/and". That we've been trying to field a nominally competitive team while turning the ship around. We still haven't arrived, but the turning is going about how some of us expected.

As for your conclusion, I still see resigning Dunn as an option. We may well trade him, but I'd like to see what this team would look like without Griff, but with Adam Dunn.

M2
07-25-2008, 01:47 PM
For the month of October, I think Walt Jocketty should rent a house on the water in the Caribbean with a satellite hookup so he can see all the playoff games. Then I think he should invite all the GMs that won't part with their various flavors of the day to get what they need down for a party.

red-in-la
07-25-2008, 01:55 PM
Saying, "We're not going to lose anymore," Castellini replaced former GM Wayne Krivsky with Jocketty in April. Dumping players now when .500 is within reach would seem to run contrary to his previous edict.

"A lot of people kind of say, 'Why do they want a record this year? Why is that such a big deal?'" Weathers said. "Well, it is a big deal. You have to walk before you crawl. We need to see if we can have a winning record. If they want to do that, then I don't think they move me at all."

It appeared the front office held finishing with a winning record in as high esteem as the players did.

"It's important to get to .500," Jocketty said. "If we can get to .500 and keep trying to improve, we get to have a winning season. It just shows progress and that's what we need to do."

Talk about fool's gold! :rolleyes:

KronoRed
07-25-2008, 02:13 PM
Same old jalopy, just a different coat of paint.

Reminds me of Dan O and how great things were going to be when Anderson Machado got back.

If the goal is .500 then the goal is bad, the 2006 team won 80 games, it was not a sign of things getting better as last year showed.

Marc D
07-25-2008, 02:32 PM
Same old story

Stand pat and hope because we aren't mathmatically eliminated from the WC at the AS break.

Hope is not a sound business plan.

Highlifeman21
07-25-2008, 03:52 PM
I'm going to be deeply disappointed if David Weathers is still a Red after July 31st.

Weathers
Fogg (as stated by Raisor)
Arroyo
Majewski
Bako
Ross
Valentin
Cabrera
Hairston
Andy Phillips
Griffey

All these guys need to not be Reds after July 31st, as far as I'm concerned.

My list would be longer, but unfortunately we have a lot of crap on the DL.

Jpup
07-25-2008, 04:09 PM
They must still be evaluating. Same 'ole Reds.

flyer85
07-25-2008, 04:11 PM
I just hope Walt can do a few minor deals. The Yanks could use Ross and a reliever, just send back Gardner. The Red could live with Hanigan in the mean time.

wheels
07-25-2008, 04:42 PM
The deadline isn't that big of a deal.

The changes I care about are more likely to occur in the off season.

That is, unless they feel the Dunn situation is untenable and they deal him off. If that were the case, I think I would cry.

Nugget
07-25-2008, 05:00 PM
Its strange that people would like to see half the players on the REDS roster off it by August 1. Why not go follow another team?

I think the article is simply saying and there are a few articles out there about a number of teams that the REDS aren't totally out of it but then WJ has said that the two things the REDS won't be doing is blowing up the roster just to get payroll down and hiring a guy for two months by selling the farm. That is you're probably not likely to see a deal which involves Bailey going for some free agent to be.

Raisor
07-25-2008, 05:05 PM
Its strange that people would like to see half the players on the REDS roster off it by August 1. Why not go follow another team?



Oh no, I want the Reds to have better players! What's wrong with me????

wheels
07-25-2008, 05:07 PM
Oh no, I want the Reds to have better players! What's wrong with me????

You're a troll.:p:

Raisor
07-25-2008, 05:07 PM
You're a troll.:p:

I'm a Goblin.

wheels
07-25-2008, 05:16 PM
I'm a Goblin.

A Nose Goblin.

Patrick Bateman
07-25-2008, 05:41 PM
Hobgoblin

Nugget
07-25-2008, 05:55 PM
Oh no, I want the Reds to have better players! What's wrong with me????

Actually all the you have said in the post is that you want a certain player off the team - nothing about having better players.

Sure if you can pick up a better player all the better or a piece that is really needed but getting rid of a player just for the sake of him not being on the roster anymore.

Edskin
07-25-2008, 06:01 PM
Deadline deals are generally overrated, and especially so for this current Reds team.

As others have stated, I think the changes that "need" to be made in Cincy are much more likely to come in the off-season.

I think we're pretty close, from an organizational stamdpoint to contending. We have a pretty solid young core, and a few decent players in their prime. If the current youth on the roster progresses as one would assume, then there is enough there for the Reds to make some noise if we make the correct tweaks.

So, even though it's not really exciting, I'm more or less in favor of standing pat as well. The big question is Adam Dunn...and I am in the camp that wants to resign him. I make that the focus for now unless some team comes desperate at the deadline w/ an offer Jocketty can't refuse-- which seems highly unlikely at this point.

Of course, I'm all for dealing the aging guys with expiring contracts (Junior, Weathers), but I just don't think that any of those types of players are going to land us a return of any real significance. So, if we trade them, great. If not, oh well.

I think Walt and Cast need to focus on keeping the majority of this team intact (including guys like Arroyo) and adding a few players to get us over the top.

BTW...as for the article itself...it basically says, the Reds may make deals and they may not. Very enlightening :)

*BaseClogger*
07-25-2008, 06:24 PM
I just wanted to point out that a lot of this crap could make it through waivers, so we could trade them after July 31...

puca
07-25-2008, 06:38 PM
If all they will bring in return is minor league fodder, what is the point?

Other than Arroyo, and only then if we throw in $$$, none of the guys being mentioned in this thread are going to bring back projectable major league talent. I'd rather keep Fogg and Weathers around to soak up the innings that otherwise might be heaped on a youngster that is not ready.

Falls City Beer
07-25-2008, 06:51 PM
If all they will bring in return is minor league fodder, what is the point?

Other than Arroyo, and only then if we throw in $$$, none of the guys being mentioned in this thread are going to bring back projectable major league talent. I'd rather keep Fogg and Weathers around to soak up the innings that otherwise might be heaped on a youngster that is not ready.

Wise captain.

SMcGavin
07-25-2008, 07:04 PM
If all they will bring in return is minor league fodder, what is the point?

Other than Arroyo, and only then if we throw in $$$, none of the guys being mentioned in this thread are going to bring back projectable major league talent. I'd rather keep Fogg and Weathers around to soak up the innings that otherwise might be heaped on a youngster that is not ready.

I think Weathers and Affeldt could bring back a decent return. I agree with you on the others.

Highlifeman21
07-25-2008, 07:58 PM
Its strange that people would like to see half the players on the REDS roster off it by August 1. Why not go follow another team?

I think the article is simply saying and there are a few articles out there about a number of teams that the REDS aren't totally out of it but then WJ has said that the two things the REDS won't be doing is blowing up the roster just to get payroll down and hiring a guy for two months by selling the farm. That is you're probably not likely to see a deal which involves Bailey going for some free agent to be.

You're happy with the 25 man and 40 man rosters?

Seriously?

Nugget
07-25-2008, 08:02 PM
Sure there could be improvements but they are REDS and I don't think dumping them off the roster would improve the current team. I could see moving Paterson and promoting Dickerson but if your moving Weathers, Fogg etc just for the sake of moving them off the team I don't think your improving the REDS at all.

GAC
07-25-2008, 08:19 PM
It doesn't bother me that they may "stand pat" at the deadline.

"Ya got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them"

4-5 years ago Lindner/Allen would have dumped salary. I don't see this current FO doing that, and I commend them for that.

The Reds, IMHO, are right at that point in the "curve" where they need to decide what they are going to do to reach that next level. They really don't have much as far as trading chips as this deadline approaches. At least not "chips" that they want to divest themselves of. We've heard of interest in guys likes Arroyo, Ross, Weathers, and Affeldt; but that's been about it. And I don't think Walt is going to "dump" those guys unless the return is something that benefits this organization.

I personally think Walt is going to let this season play out. Many contracts are due to expire at season's end. I then think he'll try to make his mark in the off-season.

It's just going to be interesting to see what they are going to do with Dunn.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-25-2008, 08:35 PM
I think Weathers and Affeldt could bring back a decent return. I agree with you on the others.

If Jeff Conine could bring us two decent prospects (one of which is on fire in 2008 - Sean Henry) I see no reason Affeldt and Weathers couldn't bring the Reds a nice return.

Especially if you package them.

princeton
07-25-2008, 09:18 PM
sometimes you're forced by the market to stand pat

but don't stand pat just because you're not sure which way to go. move somewhere.

BTW, Arroyo will probably slide pretty deep down the waiver wire after August 1

4256 Hits
07-25-2008, 11:44 PM
Initially, that's how I felt too, but then someone pointed out that he may actually qualify for a type B free agent. I'm thinking the compensation pick may be more attractive.

If the Reds try to get a comp pick for Weathers they will end up having Weathers on the team next year for about 5 mil.

There is no way that if Weathers is offered arb that he gets a better deal then what that would get him.

HokieRed
07-26-2008, 01:04 AM
I see no reason to stand pat if the market is willing to give us something of value in return for Weathers or Affeldt. They're not going to be back next year; it's exceedingly unwise to offer Weathers arbitration. I also wouldn't be fooled by Arroyo's last few starts; all they do is open a possible opportunity to unload a ridiculously inflated contract for the next two years. My only wish is that Wayne would have dealt him to the Phillies last year and kept Lohse, who could have been had this year for half what we'll end up paying Arroyo next. I wish we'd even be creative and think of trying the other side of the trade. I think there's a lot to be said for acquiring either Sherrill or Street.

WVRedsFan
07-26-2008, 01:13 AM
IMHO, the Reds have two choices. Stand pat and the baseball you see today you will see next year, or try to make some moves to improve. I've long been in favor of keeping Dunn, but everyone else is fair game. The folly that we are close to contending is something that I will never understand.

Spring~Fields
07-26-2008, 01:33 AM
It doesn't bother me that they may "stand pat" at the deadline.

"Ya got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them"

4-5 years ago Lindner/Allen would have dumped salary. I don't see this current FO doing that, and I commend them for that.



Hey Kenny, the Reds have been folding since 2001, when do they get dealt a hand to hold ? :) Chicago, St. Louis, Houston and Milwaukee keep upping the amount to get in the game, Bob don't have enough cabbage. Now what?

I don't consider increases to Griffey, Dunn, Arroyo, Harang, Gonzalez, and Freel as Castellini actually increasing the payroll, though he had to budget to cover contract expense increases for those players. It is not like he added freed up money to spend on other player resources.

Last six years amount, increases, decreases
2008 $ 74,117,695 7 % increase Castellini
+ 5,212,715 increase
2007 $ 68,904,980 11.6 % increase Castellini
+7,995,461 increase
2006 $ 60,909,519 -1.6 % decrease Castellini
- 983,064 decrease
2005 $ 61,892,583 32 % increase Lindner
+15,277,333 increase
2004 $ 46,615,250 21 % decrease Lindner
-12,720,417 decrease
2003 $ 59,355,667 32 % increase Lindner
+ 14,305,277
2002 $ 45,050,390

2002-2005 Lindner is showing a 16 mil increase, Castellini on the other hand has not increased discretionary funds for a GM to spend. Have to wait to see what shakes out on Cordero though, to be sure.

Matt700wlw
07-26-2008, 03:06 AM
Bring up Mackoviak and release Patterson Baker.....at worst it's addition by subtraction with upside :)

Matt700wlw
07-26-2008, 03:16 AM
I think Weathers and Affeldt could bring back a decent return. I agree with you on the others.

Affeldt especially...he's a lefty and has some nasty stuff when he's on his game

Ron Madden
07-26-2008, 03:48 AM
Why in the world would any GM trade away prospects for guys like David Weathers, when they could sign'em for peanuts during the offseason?

GAC
07-26-2008, 06:17 AM
Why in the world would any GM trade away prospects for guys like David Weathers, when they could sign'em for peanuts during the offseason?


Exactly. And also.... why give up high level prospects or any type of quality player(s) for an Adam Dunn when you can sacrifice far less if you sign him in the off-season?

IMO - it's not like Walt isn't listening to offers on various players, whoever that may be. It's all about the return benefit (if any). If Walt states various players are "untradeable" and off the table - and there should be that core of players identified as such - then what is left to deal with? A lot of fodder IMO.

I think if Walt is going to try and make any type of impact on this team's roster it's going to come in the off season.

mth123
07-26-2008, 07:15 AM
Why in the world would any GM trade away prospects for guys like David Weathers, when they could sign'em for peanuts during the offseason?

Because they are looking to add the last piece to a play-off contender for 2008 and need the arm for the pen. Waiting for the off-season is too late.

I think the Reds could get something back that could help in the future for Weathers, Affeldt and maybe even Fogg (remembering that even marginal prospects have value, possibly as part of a future package). I'd keep Dunn and sign him. Arroyo could be had, but pitchers who can give league average innings in a starting role while rarely missing a turn make $11 to $12 Million per year these days. Its not 1995 anymore. The notion that he is way overpaid is off IMO. Would I deal him for the right return? Absolutley, but saving cash ain't it. There aren't any replacements in house and any that could be had on the market would cost just as much or more.

As for others, Griffey and Ross could go ASAP IMO. Any team that would deal with Griffey's option for 2009 by either invoking it or paying the $4 Million buy-out at season's end could have him for a bag of balls. I don't see it happening even if the Reds pay him for the remainder of the year. The others that should be moved either will garner no interest (Patterson, Javy, Coffey, Maj) or are on the DL (Freel, Gonzalez, Mercker, maybe Hairston in a sell high move). Maybe Freel could get back on the field by the end of August and some team that suffers an injury or something will take 2009 off the Reds hands.

I really think this trade deadline comes down to Affeldt, Weathers and Fogg. With Damaso Marte off the market, Affeldt looks better. I really think the Reds could add a somebody competent to fill a role in 2009 for him. Maybe a guy who is buried on his team's depth chart. Reggie Willits anyone?.

Ron Madden
07-26-2008, 05:45 PM
IMO - it's not like Walt isn't listening to offers on various players, whoever that may be. It's all about the return benefit (if any). If Walt states various players are "untradeable" and off the table - and there should be that core of players identified as such - then what is left to deal with? A lot of fodder IMO.

I think if Walt is going to try and make any type of impact on this team's roster it's going to come in the off season.

Agreed.

Ron Madden
07-26-2008, 05:47 PM
Because they are looking to add the last piece to a play-off contender for 2008 and need the arm for the pen. Waiting for the off-season is too late.

I think the Reds could get something back that could help in the future for Weathers, Affeldt and maybe even Fogg (remembering that even marginal prospects have value, possibly as part of a future package). I'd keep Dunn and sign him. Arroyo could be had, but pitchers who can give league average innings in a starting role while rarely missing a turn make $11 to $12 Million per year these days. Its not 1995 anymore. The notion that he is way overpaid is off IMO. Would I deal him for the right return? Absolutley, but saving cash ain't it. There aren't any replacements in house and any that could be had on the market would cost just as much or more.

As for others, Griffey and Ross could go ASAP IMO. Any team that would deal with Griffey's option for 2009 by either invoking it or paying the $4 Million buy-out at season's end could have him for a bag of balls. I don't see it happening even if the Reds pay him for the remainder of the year. The others that should be moved either will garner no interest (Patterson, Javy, Coffey, Maj) or are on the DL (Freel, Gonzalez, Mercker, maybe Hairston in a sell high move). Maybe Freel could get back on the field by the end of August and some team that suffers an injury or something will take 2009 off the Reds hands.

I really think this trade deadline comes down to Affeldt, Weathers and Fogg. With Damaso Marte off the market, Affeldt looks better. I really think the Reds could add a somebody competent to fill a role in 2009 for him. Maybe a guy who is buried on his team's depth chart. Reggie Willits anyone?.

I should have said good prospects.