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View Full Version : Out-of-left-field trade idea.....



red-in-la
07-26-2008, 05:34 PM
I know this is going to soumd a little nuts, but I had this trade idea whilst watching the Cubs game.

Reds trade: Adam Dunn, Homer Bailey, David Weathers and CoCo Cordero

Cubs trade: Sean Marshall and type A prospect.

I know there are probably hundreds of arguments against this, but I see the Cubs beginning to falter without Kerry Wood.

I think the Reds could make either Jared Burton or Josh Roenicke a closer next year.

The Reds use the saved moeny from Cordero and Dunn to sign a couple of FA outfielders and a high end pitcher.

Falls City Beer
07-26-2008, 05:37 PM
I know this is going to soumd a little nuts, but I had this trade idea whilst watching the Cubs game.

Reds trade: Adam Dunn, Homer Bailey, David Weathers and CoCo Cordero

Cubs trade: Sean Marshall and type A prospect.

I know there are probably hundreds of arguments against this, but I see the Cubs beginning to falter without Kerry Wood.

I think the Reds could make either Jared Burton or Josh Roenicke a closer next year.

The Reds use the saved moeny from Cordero and Dunn to sign a couple of FA outfielders and a high end pitcher.

I'd do a Cordero for Marshall deal in a heartbeat.

BCubb2003
07-26-2008, 05:43 PM
whilst watching the Cubs game.



There's your problem.

redsmetz
07-26-2008, 05:51 PM
Not even the Pirates would make that trade! Why, oh why, do folks here decide it's a good thing to give away bunches of players for little return?

BoydsOfSummer
07-26-2008, 05:54 PM
It's very possible that Carlos Marmol is a better closer than Kerry Wood. That dude is freak-nasty on righties especially.

CTA513
07-26-2008, 06:15 PM
The Reds would just be giving away players and I would rather not give away a young pitcher like Bailey.

Rojo
07-26-2008, 06:19 PM
So you'd short the pen to add more to the back end of the rotation. No thanks.

klw
07-26-2008, 06:34 PM
Have a look at the list of free agent outfielders and find two worth signing, let us know who you want, how much you pay them and for how long and then we can evaluate better. I think you will be hard pressed to find two worth going after in the next crop.

Hooligan
07-26-2008, 06:39 PM
Worst trade idea ever. Take a break from watching the shrubs.

cincinnati chili
07-26-2008, 07:04 PM
I know this is going to soumd a little nuts, but I had this trade idea whilst watching the Cubs game.

Reds trade: Adam Dunn, Homer Bailey, David Weathers and CoCo Cordero

Cubs trade: Sean Marshall and type A prospect.


You're fired as GM. ;)

I'll diagram the six commodities in that trade:

Reds best offensive player and possible future hall of famer +
Overhyped but at least "B" level prospect +
Crap +
Overpaid but solid major league closer under K for three more years.

for

'B' level prospect +
A level prospect

So if you remove the 'B' level prospects and the crap from both sides of the equation you get this:

Adam Dunn and Francisco Cordero for an 'A' level prospect.

Unless that 'A' level prospect is the next Willie Mays, I'm not interested.

red-in-la
07-26-2008, 07:09 PM
Worst trade idea ever. Take a break from watching the shrubs.

Maybe they need a warning label on the bottom of their broadcast. :D

Homer Bailey
07-26-2008, 07:33 PM
For the 80th time... Cordero has a full no trade clause!!!!!!!

Spitball
07-26-2008, 07:37 PM
Have a look at the list of free agent outfielders and find two worth signing, let us know who you want, how much you pay them and for how long and then we can evaluate better. I think you will be hard pressed to find two worth going after in the next crop.

Good free agent outfielders, and often not so good outfielders, get signed to high priced long term contracts...and they often seem to go into decline shortly afterward.

klw
07-26-2008, 07:41 PM
Here is the 2008-9 free agent outfielder class. * means there is an option


Bobby Abreu NYY
Moises Alou NYM
Garret Anderson * LAA
Rocco Baldelli TB
Willie Bloomquist SEA
Emil Brown OAK
Pat Burrell PHI
Endy Chavez NYM
Carl Crawford * TB
Adam Dunn CIN
Jim Edmonds CHC
Juan Encarnacion STL
Cliff Floyd TB
Brian Giles * SD
Ken Griffey Jr. * CIN
Vladimir Guerrero * LAA
Raul Ibanez SEA
Jacque Jones DET
Mark Kotsay ATL
Rob Mackowiak WAS
Kevin Mench TEX
Jason Michaels * CLE
Craig Monroe MIN
Jay Payton BAL
Scott Podsednik COL
Manny Ramirez * BOS
Juan Rivera LAA
Rondell White MIN

red-in-la
07-26-2008, 08:05 PM
What about Mench to play LF and take a flyer on Encarnacion* to backup CF. I am still convinced that Hairston can play a decent enough CF to play most of the time.

*Assuming Encarnacion can still play

klw
07-26-2008, 08:11 PM
Mench seems to be in decline, sub .700 ops on the year. I'll pass

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5088

Degenerate39
07-26-2008, 10:03 PM
For the 80th time... Cordero has a full no trade clause!!!!!!!

That doesn't mean he doesn't want to go to another team. So he could waive it.

Patrick Bateman
07-26-2008, 10:18 PM
I know this is going to soumd a little nuts, but I had this trade idea whilst watching the Cubs game.

Reds trade: Adam Dunn, Homer Bailey, David Weathers and CoCo Cordero

Cubs trade: Sean Marshall and type A prospect.

I know there are probably hundreds of arguments against this, but I see the Cubs beginning to falter without Kerry Wood.

I think the Reds could make either Jared Burton or Josh Roenicke a closer next year.

The Reds use the saved moeny from Cordero and Dunn to sign a couple of FA outfielders and a high end pitcher.


"I know this trade makes no sense, and is counter to any kind of rational thought, and additionally, there are 100 reasons why it fails to help the team.... however, would you do it?"

No.

Raisor
07-26-2008, 10:37 PM
I know this is going to soumd a little nuts, but I had this trade idea whilst watching the Cubs game.

Reds trade: Adam Dunn, Homer Bailey, David Weathers and CoCo Cordero

Cubs trade: Sean Marshall and type A prospect.

The Reds use the saved moeny from Cordero and Dunn to sign a couple of FA outfielders and a high end pitcher.

Heck, throw in Votto and Bruce while you're at it.

:cool:

Raisor
07-26-2008, 10:50 PM
Mench seems to be in decline, sub .700 ops on the year. I'll pass

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5088

But he'll be cheap, which seems to be the most important thing!

durl
07-26-2008, 10:57 PM
I know there are probably hundreds of arguments against this...

At least.

No offense, but they'd be right.

Kc61
07-26-2008, 11:17 PM
I know this is going to soumd a little nuts, but I had this trade idea whilst watching the Cubs game.

Reds trade: Adam Dunn, Homer Bailey, David Weathers and CoCo Cordero

Cubs trade: Sean Marshall and type A prospect.

I know there are probably hundreds of arguments against this, but I see the Cubs beginning to falter without Kerry Wood.

I think the Reds could make either Jared Burton or Josh Roenicke a closer next year.

The Reds use the saved moeny from Cordero and Dunn to sign a couple of FA outfielders and a high end pitcher.


I'd like to support this trade proposal -- it's not doable (Cordero does have a no-trade clause) -- but it makes a good point. It certainly doesn't deserve the harsh criticisms of this thread.

Fans, Adam Dunn's contract as a Red ends in two months. At that point, he is worth nothing to them except two draft choices if they offer him arbitration. And who knows how draft choices pan out. Repeat -- In eight or nine weeks the Reds don't own Dunn any more.

Weathers is a free agent. He won't be Reds property in two months.

Bailey's value is, well, you saw the game tonight.

Cordero is owed about $40 million over the next three plus years. That's a lot of dough for a closer with his 2008 numbers.

Why does anyone think this collection of contracts would bring a big return? And why is a good young pitcher and an A prospect insufficient?

kaldaniels
07-26-2008, 11:20 PM
So what is the official ruling on trading Cordero. I think everyone knows he has a no-trade but he is always mentioned in proprosed trades. Would the no-trade be able to waived? If so, how realistic is it that that would happen???

Whats the final Redzone verdict...can we bring him up in proposed trades or not.

CTA513
07-27-2008, 12:13 AM
I'd like to support this trade proposal -- it's not doable (Cordero does have a no-trade clause) -- but it makes a good point. It certainly doesn't deserve the harsh criticisms of this thread.

Fans, Adam Dunn's contract as a Red ends in two months. At that point, he is worth nothing to them except two draft choices if they offer him arbitration. And who knows how draft choices pan out. Repeat -- In eight or nine weeks the Reds don't own Dunn any more.

Weathers is a free agent. He won't be Reds property in two months.

Bailey's value is, well, you saw the game tonight.

Cordero is owed about $40 million over the next three plus years. That's a lot of dough for a closer with his 2008 numbers.

Why does anyone think this collection of contracts would bring a big return? And why is a good young pitcher and an A prospect insufficient?



Why would the Cubs want Dunn and why would they want to take on Corderos contract when he hasn't pitched that well?

red-in-la
07-27-2008, 01:44 AM
Why would the Cubs want Dunn and why would they want to take on Corderos contract when he hasn't pitched that well?

Because the Cubs lack a LH power bat and want to win the WS....in case that hasn't been real obvious to this point.

Cordero, no matter how bad he had looked right now, is a dominating closer for periods of time......if that period is September and October like is was April and MAy, then he sure helps the Cubbies.

Would Cordero, now that he has seen what he is getting as a Red want to waive his clause so he could be a Cubbie and pitch in the WS? I don't know. But he is very expensive, and a left over (in a way) from a previous regime.

CTA513
07-27-2008, 02:06 AM
Because the Cubs lack a LH power bat and want to win the WS....in case that hasn't been real obvious to this point.

Cordero, no matter how bad he had looked right now, is a dominating closer for periods of time......if that period is September and October like is was April and MAy, then he sure helps the Cubbies.

Would Cordero, now that he has seen what he is getting as a Red want to waive his clause so he could be a Cubbie and pitch in the WS? I don't know. But he is very expensive, and a left over (in a way) from a previous regime.


I don't see room in the Cubs outfield for him. They already have Soriano, Fukudome, Reed, DeRosa, Edmonds and Ward has played some outfield.


The Cubs already have a good closer in Wood and a closer of the future in Marmol. Wood is on the DL though, but its not like its injury that will keep him out for the season. I could see the Cubs picking up another bullpen arm, but not someone with the type of contract Cordero has unless the Reds pay a chunk of it for them.

Jpup
07-27-2008, 04:33 AM
Give the Reds Abreu and Burrell or Dunn to go along with Bruce and you have the best OF in baseball (offensively).

I have to figure the Yanks may want Abreu back.

pahster
07-27-2008, 09:41 AM
For the 80th time... Cordero has a full no trade clause!!!!!!!

Maybe the Reds should try to rework his contract in order to allow him to go back to the minors. :p:

camisadelgolf
07-27-2008, 11:32 AM
For the 80th time... Cordero has a full no trade clause!!!!!!!

Even if it's not for the entire length of the contract, people need to keep this in mind.

By the way, let us also not forget that we're talking about a trade within the division that significantly helps the other team. The Reds are only a couple pieces from truly competing--it's not time to completely rebuild and hand the division to the Cubs for years to come.

Benihana
07-27-2008, 12:54 PM
This proposal/thread is something I'd expect to see on the Sun Deck.

KronoRed
07-27-2008, 01:05 PM
Maybe the Reds should try to rework his contract in order to allow him to go back to the minors. :p:

Good times :cool:

Rojo
07-27-2008, 03:21 PM
I wonder if you could work something out with the Angels. Darren Oliver is there only lefty in the pen. He's been ok but how long will that last? And they've gotten squat from their catchers. They've also buried Reggie Willits, who's languishing with a .185 BA. but he's got a solid record of getting on base. Of course he may not be a true CF which would be key to playing time.

Anyhow Ross/Affeldt for Willits and one of their young catchers? Angels are notorious for holding on to guys but its looking like their year and they need to think about the post-season.

red-in-la
07-27-2008, 03:22 PM
Even if it's not for the entire length of the contract, people need to keep this in mind.

By the way, let us also not forget that we're talking about a trade within the division that significantly helps the other team. The Reds are only a couple pieces from truly competing--it's not time to completely rebuild and hand the division to the Cubs for years to come.

:roll::laugh:

red-in-la
07-27-2008, 03:22 PM
This proposal/thread is something I'd expect to see on the Sun Deck.

They wouldn't let me post it there......:eek:

Ron Madden
07-27-2008, 03:24 PM
They wouldn't let me post it there......:eek:


They shouldn't let you post it here. ;)

mth123
07-27-2008, 03:31 PM
I wonder if you could work something out with the Angels. Darren Oliver is there only lefty in the pen. He's been ok but how long will that last? And they've gotten squat from their catchers. They've also buried Reggie Willits, who's languishing with a .185 BA. but he's got a solid record of getting on base. Of course he may not be a true CF which would be key to playing time.

Anyhow Ross/Affeldt for Willits and one of their young catchers? Angels are notorious for holding on to guys but its looking like their year and they need to think about the post-season.

Sign me up. I've been thinking Affeldt/Willits would be a good deal for both teams. If the Angels would deal a catcher in exchange for Ross I'd do that too, but its doubtful. I wouldn't trade any of their catchers for any of the Reds guys if I were them. Maybe if we threw in some more LH pitching depth like say Maloney or Pelland and a couple prospects at lower levels. I'd be happy with Affeldt/Willits.

camisadelgolf
07-27-2008, 04:09 PM
:roll::laugh:

I know how funny it sounds, but if the Reds replaced the 94.0 IP as starters from Josh Fogg, Homer Bailey, and Matt Belisle (the Reds' #5 starters) with Rich Harden (who was available in the offseason for prospects), the team ERA shaves off more than half a run. That's the difference one piece can make. If the Reds had made another move like that, I think they would have been in the thick of the race. I'm not saying the Reds should have done that--I'm just saying it's realistic.


Player Ag ERA W L SV GS IP H R ER HR BB SO
---+-------------------+--+---+------+---+---+--+---+---+---+---+------+----+----+-
SP Homer Bailey 22 6.52 0 4 0 6 29.0 44 25 21 8 13 11
SP Matt Belisle 28 7.28 1 4 0 6 29.7 47 27 24 4 6 14
SP Josh Fogg 31 7.09 2 3 0 8 35.3 46 37 34 10 14 21
---+-------------------+--+---+------+---+---+--+---+---+---+---+------+----+----+-
TOTAL 26 6.99 3 11 0 20 94.0 137 89 79 22 33 46


Player Ag ERA W L SV GS IP H R ER HR BB SO
---+-------------------+--+---+------+---+---+--+---+---+---+---+------+----+----+-
SP Rich Harden 26 2.10 5 2 0 16 94.3 65 23 22 7 39 122



CURRENT STARTING PITCHING
TEAM GP W L ERA IP H ER R BB SO
Cincinnati 106 34 43 5.01 594.1 660 335 366 221 500

CURRENT STARTING PITCHING WITHOUT Bailey, Belisle, and Fogg
Cincinnati 86 31 31 4.60 500.1 523 256 277 188 454

CURRENT STARTING PITCHING IF Bailey, Belisle, and Fogg WERE REPLACED BY Harden
Cincinnati 102 36 33 4.21 594.2 588 278 300 227 576

cincinnati chili
07-27-2008, 04:16 PM
I think it's perfectly plausible to say the Reds are only a couple moves away from being a division contender. The problem is that when they lose Dunn, they'll be about four moves away, and I worry that the people in charge don't realize that.

HokieRed
07-27-2008, 04:17 PM
What the numbers above actually demonstrate, though, is that we'd be in vastly better shape if Harden replaced our #1 starter.

HokieRed
07-27-2008, 04:25 PM
I think it's very unrealistic to think the Reds are anywhere near serious contention. We have a young first baseman who has not demonstrated the ability to hit enough for that position, we have a solid, if free-swinging second baseman, we have a good utility player at SS, and an above-average all around, but challenged, defender at third. We have a right-fielder who is the worst #3 hitter in baseball, a young prospect in CF or RF who has great talent but is only barely getting his feet wet, and a slugging left-fielder who is weak defensively. Our catching is weak, period, and our bench players have got to be, as a group, the worst in baseball. We have an injured #1 starter, a very promising but largely untested pair of young starters, and a marginal #4 paid as a #2 whose ERA has been around 6.00 most of this season. The fifth starters are just plain bad. We have an erratic, overpaid closer; a very good set-up man now hurt, an aging veteran 3rd guy who will not be with the team next year; a pair of hard-throwing left-handers, one improving, the other completely undependable; and a promising retread with a very nice curveball. Beyond that group, we have the others. We have a traditional manager who assesses talent according to intuitions and a pitching coach who's not really shown the ability to develop anybody. How, on earth, does this add up to anything approaching a contender? I don't mean to be harsh, but we will not get anywhere until we start to evaluate realistically what we have and do not have.

Rojo
07-27-2008, 07:10 PM
I think it's very unrealistic to think the Reds are anywhere near serious contention. We have a young first baseman who has not demonstrated the ability to hit enough for that position, we have a solid, if free-swinging second baseman, we have a good utility player at SS, and an above-average all around, but challenged, defender at third. We have a right-fielder who is the worst #3 hitter in baseball, a young prospect in CF or RF who has great talent but is only barely getting his feet wet, and a slugging left-fielder who is weak defensively. Our catching is weak, period, and our bench players have got to be, as a group, the worst in baseball. We have an injured #1 starter, a very promising but largely untested pair of young starters, and a marginal #4 paid as a #2 whose ERA has been around 6.00 most of this season. The fifth starters are just plain bad. We have an erratic, overpaid closer; a very good set-up man now hurt, an aging veteran 3rd guy who will not be with the team next year; a pair of hard-throwing left-handers, one improving, the other completely undependable; and a promising retread with a very nice curveball. Beyond that group, we have the others. We have a traditional manager who assesses talent according to intuitions and a pitching coach who's not really shown the ability to develop anybody. How, on earth, does this add up to anything approaching a contender? I don't mean to be harsh, but we will not get anywhere until we start to evaluate realistically what we have and do not have.

Ouch. An 11-nothing diagnosis?

Its not as bad as all that. You've got a core of young hitters -- Dunn, Bruce, Votto, Phillips and Encarnacion -- that a lot of teams would kill for (my Giants-fan friends sure would). You've got three pitchers who could win a short series by themselves. And now you've got one of the best bullpens in the league.

I think chilli's prognosis is closer to the truth. With the caveat that moving Dunn doesn't have to set us "four moves back" if he brings the right return. Sadly, it looks like the league isn't interested.

Rojo
07-27-2008, 07:16 PM
Sign me up. I've been thinking Affeldt/Willits would be a good deal for both teams. If the Angels would deal a catcher in exchange for Ross I'd do that too, but its doubtful. I wouldn't trade any of their catchers for any of the Reds guys if I were them. Maybe if we threw in some more LH pitching depth like say Maloney or Pelland and a couple prospects at lower levels. I'd be happy with Affeldt/Willits.

But their catchers are, maybe, Mr. Right. Ross is Mr. Right Now. The key is Willits in center. We could use a lead-off man, but not on an outfield corner.