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WVRedsFan
07-27-2008, 12:14 AM
After watching what was described as a horrible Colorado team just dominate the Reds two nights in a row, I began to wonder why they were so terrible. I looked at their lineup and saw a very strong offensive team. Offensively, we don't come close to the Rocks. Offensively, only Bruce and Ross have stats better than the Rockies unknown players at the same position. In fact, our building blocks for the future (EdE, Phillips, Votto, and Bruce) pale in comparison to the kids the Rockies have and we won't even get into defense.

Our pitching staff is better top to bottom, but an offense like the Reds can make even the worst pitcher look good (as we saw tonight).

Jocketty has a lot of work to do. His lip service about standing pat is just that. HIs work will be done this winter.

remdog
07-27-2008, 12:25 AM
The last two games are the first times I've watched the Rockies this year and, honestly, I've been impressed. How do these guys have a losing record?

WV is correct; the Reds do have a lot of work to do. That's simply reality. (Yeah, I'm a member of 'The No Joy in Mudville crowd as the believers in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy like to call us.)

I'm not quite as down on some of the youngsters as WV but the truth is that, despite all of their potential, they still have to prove they can perform on an everyday basis over a long season.

Rem

WVRedsFan
07-27-2008, 12:48 AM
The last two games are the first times I've watched the Rockies this year and, honestly, I've been impressed. How do these guys have a losing record?

WV is correct; the Reds do have a lot of work to do. That's simply reality. (Yeah, I'm a member of 'The No Joy in Mudville crowd as the believers in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy like to call us.)

I'm not quite as down on some of the youngsters as WV but the truth is that, despite all of their potential, they still have to prove they can perform on an everyday basis over a long season.

Rem

Thank you, rem.

Sometimes we live in a fantasy world thinking some of our youngsters are world beaters. Bruce is 21. Edwin is 25. Votto is, I think, 23. Phillips is a little older and flawed offensively. Yes, these players have potential, and Phillips showed it last year. Bruce and Votto are learning and I'm not sure that EdE will ever learn to pay third base. If this is our core, we are in big trouble. Just like Thompson was the next coming with one good performance in New York, the kids are kids. Some will pan out and some will be busts. It's the just the way it is.

I look at the Colorado players, none of which I even knew existed until this series, and see OBP's OPS's that make our kids look lame. There IS a lot of work to do here. No player should be untouchable if this team ever wants to do better than 78-80 wins a year.

red-in-la
07-27-2008, 01:26 AM
You don't see anyone on the Rockies TRYING to lead the league in HR's or guys trying to do anything more than hit a line drive somewhere by hitting the ball where it is pitched.

This what I have disliked about the Reds hitter for years now......this organizational, cultural obsession with HR's. Even the building of the ballpark was dominated by hitting HR's.

That said, I do believe that Brennman said several times over the last two days the the Rockies as a team are unconscious at the plate right now. They set some sort of Rockies record for hits over a 7 day period......only two of those games were against the Reds.

But Volquez, I am worried may be going Jack Armstrong on us and Bailey is just bad......whatever the Reds drafted in Bailey, their coaching has managed to DESTROY.

Matt700wlw
07-27-2008, 02:52 AM
I don't think Jocketty climbed on board without knowing the challenges he would face. He was a special assistant for a reason

redsmetz
07-27-2008, 07:32 AM
The last two games are the first times I've watched the Rockies this year and, honestly, I've been impressed. How do these guys have a losing record?

WV is correct; the Reds do have a lot of work to do. That's simply reality. (Yeah, I'm a member of 'The No Joy in Mudville crowd as the believers in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy like to call us.)

I'm not quite as down on some of the youngsters as WV but the truth is that, despite all of their potential, they still have to prove they can perform on an everyday basis over a long season.

Rem

I'm flattered that my Mudville commented is used, and there's no question I'm often accused of being a believer in Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus (have you seen my picture on here - I am Santa Claus!), I went back to see the context of my "No Joy In Mudville crowd" comment.

Back in the Mike Lincoln thread, after a number of folks said the relievers who were doing so well, should be sent packing, I wrote:


How frustrating. Our relief pitchers perform admirably, doing the jobs we expect them to and the "No Joy in Mudville" crowd can't wait to continue their "Blow It Up!" campaign. I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in the constant tear it down mode that's become business as usual in these parts. The world is not black and white; clubs aren't just buyers or sellers. I'm not saying don't trade anybody, but it just drives me mad on this board that anytime we've got some success, we're bemoaning the fact that Bob Castellini will get all stupid on us and not sell off this team so we can start back at square one.

I very clearly said I wasn't adverse to moving some folks, but if we're at tear it down (and I'm not sure WVaReds is saying that), then we're on a constant treadmill, never making any progress. There's no question that this club needs some work and to improve overall, some good players will need to be sacrificed, although in this strange market, I'm concerned that we won't be getting full value for what we have.

There's no question, at a number of positions, we're a young team. Bruce and Votto are both in their rookie years and have time to step up. Phillips and EE both have flaws with their upsides. And I'm not sure how Adam Dunn gets slighted in a head to head comparison to Matt Holliday; very different types of players who essentially have the same production. Perhaps Holliday gets the nod for defense. I don't know.

Is it really Pollyannish to suggest this club really doesn't need a complete overhaul to be competitive? My earlier comment had to do with the frustration that folks constantly suggest tearing this club up which, as I said, is the road to endless "going nowhere", IMO.

alexad
07-27-2008, 07:52 AM
It is hard to believe we are talking about the Reds not having any offense. Over the past 5 years, all you heard was how the Reds do not have any pitching and all the offense in the world. It was explained that offense does not win games, but pitching, pitching, pitching.

Today it appears the Reds have pitching, pitching, pitching, but no offense. What went wrong or are the Reds the new Redsox of baseball with the curse of Marge looming over our heads...............................

I love Volquez, but seeing what Hamilton is doing, I would have rather traded something else to get Volquez. Hamilton is a serious offensive threat everytime he plays the game. The cirtics still think he is going to have a melt down or get hurt, but every player has the same chance of being hurt.

jojo
07-27-2008, 08:40 AM
It is hard to believe we are talking about the Reds not having any offense. Over the past 5 years, all you heard was how the Reds do not have any pitching and all the offense in the world. It was explained that offense does not win games, but pitching, pitching, pitching.

Today it appears the Reds have pitching, pitching, pitching, but no offense. What went wrong or are the Reds the new Redsox of baseball with the curse of Marge looming over our heads...............................

I love Volquez, but seeing what Hamilton is doing, I would have rather traded something else to get Volquez. Hamilton is a serious offensive threat everytime he plays the game. The cirtics still think he is going to have a melt down or get hurt, but every player has the same chance of being hurt.

Right now the Reds staff is ranked 11th out of 16 in the NL based upon ERA (13th if ranked by FIP). Their starting pitching is 13th. Their pen is 3rd.

Offensively, they're ranked 11th in the NL based upon Runs/G.

Defensively, they are 29th in the majors based upon team defensive efficiency.

Their pythag record is 47-58 and their actual record has been influenced heavily by a starting pitcher that put up a first half that was legendary and not repeatable and the little engine that could (Hairtson) who really doesn't figure into the Reds long term plans. Also it's boosted by a .667 winning percentage in 1 run games which has been fortunate. While some might suggest the pen underlies their record in 1 run games, Philly and LA (the two teams ranked ahead of them by bullpen ERA) have a combined winning percentage in 1 run games of .508 while Atlanta the team ranked 4th by bullpen ERA (it's 3.58 to the Reds 3.48) has a winning percentage of .207 in 1 run games.

I think there is a lot of reason to have hope for the future. But ya, Jocketty has his work cut out for him.....

BuckeyeRedleg
07-27-2008, 09:18 AM
The Rockies will probably win their division.

Big Klu
07-27-2008, 11:59 AM
There's no question, at a number of positions, we're a young team. Bruce and Votto are both in their rookie years and have time to step up. Phillips and EE both have flaws with their upsides. And I'm not sure how Adam Dunn gets slighted in a head to head comparison to Matt Holliday; very different types of players who essentially have the same production. Perhaps Holliday gets the nod for defense. I don't know.

Defensively, I would take Dunn over Holliday 10 times out of 10.

jojo
07-27-2008, 12:20 PM
Defensively, I would take Dunn over Holliday 10 times out of 10.

I wouldn't based upon play-by-play based defensive systems such as Dewan's +/-, PMR to runs, and UZR.