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Spring~Fields
07-27-2008, 02:24 AM
The media are listing these below as free agents for 2009

Is it move them or lose them time for any of these below before they individually decide to try to sign on with another team over the off season that they feel are in a better position to win next year than Cincinnati, and maybe even sign for more money? I feel like many of these might want to be in a more winning environment, your thoughts?

Josh Fogg (32)
Jeremy Affeldt (30)
David Weathers (39)
Mike Lincoln
Ken Griffey Jr. (39)- $16.5MM club option for '09 with a $4MM buyout
Adam Dunn (29)
Corey Patterson (29)
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Javier Valentin
Paul Bako
David Ross (32)

Matt700wlw
07-27-2008, 02:45 AM
Dusty may cry if CP isn't retained

Spring~Fields
07-27-2008, 08:18 AM
Dusty may cry if CP isn't retained

They may want to have a good defensive replacement with speed in centerfield next year. That Patterson will not be back, is not a given at this point.

redsmetz
07-27-2008, 09:56 AM
Dusty may cry if CP isn't retained

That's completely an old news notion, Matt. Corey Patterson has started one game since June 29th. Otherwise, he's come into games as a late inning replacement (7th inning or later). With the arrival of Jay Bruce, Patterson has been on the bench.

GAC
07-27-2008, 10:00 AM
I look at that list and see a lot of addition through subtraction. How can we lose? We're doing that already! ;)

Matt700wlw
07-27-2008, 01:05 PM
That's completely an old news notion, Matt. Corey Patterson has started one game since June 29th. Otherwise, he's come into games as a late inning replacement (7th inning or later). With the arrival of Jay Bruce, Patterson has been on the bench.

I know...but as long he's on the roster, the possibility still exists :)

WVRedsFan
07-27-2008, 01:12 PM
I look at that list and only see four, maybe five, I would keep:

Affeldt
Lincoln
Dunn
Hairston (if he can stay healthy)

Of course, sentimental me also keeps Junior, but that's not going to happen.

4256 Hits
07-27-2008, 01:23 PM
That's completely an old news notion, Matt. Corey Patterson has started one game since June 29th. Otherwise, he's come into games as a late inning replacement (7th inning or later). With the arrival of Jay Bruce, Patterson has been on the bench.

But don't forget they are paying him 3 mil to ride the bench and when he get to bat can't hit.

corkedbat
07-27-2008, 01:28 PM
They may want to have a good defensive replacement with speed in centerfield next year. That Patterson will not be back, is not a given at this point.

Chris Dickerson says, "Hi!" :)

corkedbat
07-27-2008, 01:35 PM
I look at that list and only see four, maybe five, I would keep:

Affeldt
Lincoln
Dunn
Hairston (if he can stay healthy)

Of course, sentimental me also keeps Junior, but that's not going to happen.

I'd agree. I wouldn't offer yoo much to anyone other than Dunn. I want a better option behing the playe, but I'd consider bringing Ross or Bako back as athe backup behind the plate (for backup money).

red-in-la
07-27-2008, 02:22 PM
I'd agree. I wouldn't offer yoo much to anyone other than Dunn. I want a better option behing the playe, but I'd consider bringing Ross or Bako back as athe backup behind the plate (for backup money).

If the rest of MLB put half the value on Dunn that this board does, we would be talking HUGE bidding war to rent him. It is just ridiculous to kid yourselves into thinking Dunn has that kind of value. He is a one-dimensional, very expense quarterback carrying a baseball bat.

corkedbat
07-27-2008, 02:53 PM
If the rest of MLB put half the value on Dunn that this board does, we would be talking HUGE bidding war to rent him. It is just ridiculous to kid yourselves into thinking Dunn has that kind of value. He is a one-dimensional, very expense quarterback carrying a baseball bat.

Oh I don't think dunn wil should be. I don't sing Dunn's prasies as much as any here, but I also realize how difficult it will be to replace his production.

Will M
07-27-2008, 03:47 PM
The media are listing these below as free agents for 2009

Is it move them or lose them time for any of these below before they individually decide to try to sign on with another team over the off season that they feel are in a better position to win next year than Cincinnati, and maybe even sign for more money? I feel like many of these might want to be in a more winning environment, your thoughts?

Josh Fogg (32)
Jeremy Affeldt (30)
David Weathers (39)
Mike Lincoln
Ken Griffey Jr. (39)- $16.5MM club option for '09 with a $4MM buyout
Adam Dunn (29)
Corey Patterson (29)
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Javier Valentin
Paul Bako
David Ross (32)

trade everyone on this list except Mike Lincoln.

SirFelixCat
07-27-2008, 03:52 PM
I look at that list and only see four, maybe five, I would keep:

Affeldt
Lincoln
Dunn
Hairston (if he can stay healthy)

Of course, sentimental me also keeps Junior, but that's not going to happen.



I'd add Ross onto that list as BU/platoon catcher. And although I grew up loving the guy, that'd be a big "NO" to bringing Jr. back.

Spring~Fields
07-27-2008, 05:20 PM
I look at that list and see a lot of addition through subtraction. How can we lose? We're doing that already! ;)

I am glad that you asked that. :)

By lateral moves that become their replacements that might even cost as much or more and produce equal to or less. The same as we have seen every year, since Marge was ran out by Lindner, Reich, and Strike, the current partners of Castellini the president and chief executive officer of the Cincinnati Reds.

The same way that the team has been losing since what date ? (timeout I have to look it up, thank God for ESPN, Baseball reference, USA Today :lol:)

Eight years is no small sample.

2008 NL Cent 50-55 (.476) Wayne Krivsky, Walt Jocketty, Dusty Baker

By a walk down memory lane indicating that history has it’s way of repeating itself.
2007 NL Cent 72-90 (.444) Wayne Krivsky, Jerry Narron and Pete Mackanin
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2007.shtml
2006 NL Cent 80-82 (.494) Wayne Krivsky, Jerry Narron
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2006.shtml
2005 NL Cent 73-89 (.451) Dan O’Brien, Dave Miley and Jerry Narron
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2005.shtml
2004 NL Cent 76-86 (.469) Dan O’Brien, Dave Miley
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2004.shtml
2003 NL Cent 69-93 (.426) Jim Bowden, Brad Kaulman, Bob Boone, Ray Knight, and Dave Miley
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2003.shtml
2002 NL Cent 78-84 (.481) Jim Bowden, Bob Boone
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2002.shtml
2001 NL Cent 66-96 (.407) Jim Bowden, Bob Boone
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2001.shtml

Isn’t it amazing how many bad general managers and managers that the Reds have had for so long, and how the player talent level seems to correlate with that bad in so many individuals that have come and gone, indicating that they never had the player quality to compete with Houston, St. Louis, Chicago and to make them look better as general managers and managers during their individual tenures.



Year Median Total Payroll Increase/Decrease Av’g Increase/Decrease
2008 $ 1,250,000 $ 74,117,695 +5,212,715
2007 $ 1,062,500 $ 68,904,980 +7,995,461
2006 $ 1,300,000 $ 60,909,519 - 983,064
2005 $ 550,000 $ 61,892,583 +15,277,333
2004 $ 422,500 $ 46,615,250 -12,740,417
2003 $ 694,000 $ 59,355,667 +14,305,277
2002 $ 500,000 $ 45,050,390 -3,733,610
2001 $ 550,000 $ 48,784,000 +4,566,500
2000 $ 815,000 $ 44,217,500 +2,074,739
1999 $ 425,000 $ 42,142,761 +20,147,761
1998 $ 265,000 $ 21,995,000 - 24,272,000
1997 $ 600,000 $ 46,267,000 +5,547,666
1996 $ 550,000 $ 40,719,334 +3,478,667
13 years/seasons +$ 2,569,104

1996-2008 $ 74,117,695 - $ 40,719,334 = $ 33,398,361/13 years/seasons $ 2,569,104 average increase per season.

By 2008 player cost:
They have added the average of +$ 2,569,104 per year or season arguably the equivalent of adding the quality level of one Patterson $ 3,000,000, or one Freel $ 3,000,000 or one Weathers $ 3,300,000 or less per year or season on average.
By the team being under funded by the investor/ownership group tying the hands of their general managers, compelling the general managers to fill their rosters with below league average players, fodder, filler to be the supporting cast of one or two marquee names, leaving each general manager and manager that has came and later been fired to work with a group of players that simply could not compete with the St. Louis’s , Chicago’s, Houston’s, and now the Milwaukee’s of the Central division.

Eight years is no small sample

Compare to Chicago, St. Louis, Houston -


Chicago 2000-2008 St. Louis 2000-2008 Houston2000-2008 Cincinnati 2000-2008
$ 118,345,833 $ 99,624,449 $ 88,930,414 $ 74,117,695
$ 99,670,332 $ 90,286,823 $ 87,759,000 $ 68,904,980
$ 94,424,499 $ 88,891,371 $ 92,551,503 $ 60,909,519
$ 87,032,933 $ 92,106,833 $ 76,779,000 $ 61,892,583
$ 90,560,000 $ 83,228,333 $ 75,397,000 $ 46,615,250
$ 79,868,333 $ 83,786,666 $ 71,040,000 $ 59,355,667
$ 75,690,833 $ 74,660,875 $ 63,448,417 $ 45,050,390
$ 64,515,833 $ 78,333,333 $ 60,387,667 $ 48,784,000
$ 62,129,333 $ 63,093,023 $ 52,081,667 $ 48,784,000

2007 Divisional winner Chicago 2006 Divisional winner St. Louis 2005 Divisional winner St. Louis
2004 Divisional winner St. Louis 2003 Divisional winner Chicago 2002 Divisional winner St. Louis
2001 Divisional winner Houston, St. Louis tied 2000 Divisional winner St. Louis

Here is a stat for you GAC
One of the three highest payroll teams have won the majority of the Central division titles 2000-2007 100% of the time.

It is reasonable to assume that the teams that have competed well in the Central division paid higher amounts due to having higher quality players, which is supported by their winning the Central division.

Imagine what type of players the other competitors were able to purchase with the 2000 - 2006 dollars compared to the Reds and their amounts. Now imagine how that would position those clubs over the Reds in each of those years, and into the years 2007-2008-2009-2010-2011-2012 etc.

Chicago
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/teamresults.aspx?team=17
St. Louis
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/teamresults.aspx?team=30
Houston
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/teamresults.aspx?team=21
Milwaukee
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/teamresults.aspx?team=23

The small market team that is under funded in comparison to the immediate competition is going to continue to follow their pattern of finishing off filling their roster with fodder and filler.

By a small market team that has been and is insufficient in their minor league system to act as a buffer between the high cost of players, and to act as a feeder system for their major league team or as a source of trading stock.

By doing basically what they have for the past eight years with player talent.

4256 Hits
07-27-2008, 05:24 PM
trade everyone on this list except Mike Lincoln.

Why not Lincoln. He may bring the biggest return and if the Reds want him back next year they can sign him as a FA.

Will M
07-27-2008, 05:32 PM
Why not Lincoln. He may bring the biggest return and if the Reds want him back next year they can sign him as a FA.

i suspect he won't bring that big a return. we all know how good he is because we have watched all the reds games but other teams may be leery due to his injury history. i'd try now to reup him for 2009 plus an option

mth123
07-27-2008, 05:38 PM
Lincoln is older than I thought at age 33. I'm not sure if he has enough service time to be a free agent at season's end. He isn't shown among the Free Agent's on Cot's which says he only has 4.126 years of service time. If true, he's under control for next year, but given his age, I'd flip him for a decent offer.

Razor Shines
07-27-2008, 05:58 PM
If the rest of MLB put half the value on Dunn that this board does, we would be talking HUGE bidding war to rent him. It is just ridiculous to kid yourselves into thinking Dunn has that kind of value. He is a one-dimensional, very expense quarterback carrying a baseball bat.

And that one dimension is offense. He's 11th in RC/27 and 9th in OPS in the NL. No one is suggesting we break the bank to re-sign him, but I just don't think it would be very easy to replace that offense for less than what Dunn is most likely to demand. Obviously I'm guessing at what Dunn will demand because I don't think anyone really knows at this point.

Spring~Fields
07-27-2008, 06:31 PM
I look at that list and see a lot of addition through subtraction. How can we lose? We're doing that already! ;)

What if, after all the talk, and all that has been written, what if, Dunn wants to go a team that has been winning, and won't sign with the Reds?

An outfield of Freel, Patterson and Bruce ? Hopper as the platoon guy ?

An infield of Bako, Votto, Phillips, Gonzalez, EE ?

HokieRed
07-27-2008, 06:46 PM
Good point about Dunn's maybe making all of the talk irrelevant. Frankly if I were Walt, I'd assume this, not worry about re-sigining him, trade Arroyo just to get the salary relief, and try to reconfigure the whole team. Next year's outfield could be Votto, a platoon of Dickerson or Cumberland and Freel, and Bruce. Then we find a decent bat to put at first base. Maybe it's just the effect of this pathetic series against the Rockies, but I'm back to thinking we need major restructuring--and that means getting as much cash flow back into Walt's hands as possible.

Raisor
07-27-2008, 06:50 PM
By the way, radio here in Atlanta is saying that the Braves are having trouble moving Mark Teixeria.

Spring~Fields
07-27-2008, 06:56 PM
and that means getting as much cash flow back into Walt's hands as possible.

Jocketty will be able to do that by letting the free agents leave at the end of the season, and yes if he did move Arroyo, that would free up more monies.

I think that he should try to get something for the players that will be, I should say might be let go as free agents if he can. Of course we each assume that some of those no team would really want, I am only referencing the ones that teams might want.

Spring~Fields
07-27-2008, 06:58 PM
By the way, radio here in Atlanta is saying that the Braves are having trouble moving Mark Teixeria.

How much are they asking for him? I thought that one of the contenders would be interested in him, I guess I was wrong.

GAC
07-27-2008, 06:59 PM
An outfield of Freel, Patterson and Bruce ? Hopper as the platoon guy ?

An infield of Bako, Votto, Phillips, Gonzalez, EE ?

Just go ahead and stab me in the heart and get it over with already! :D

Spring~Fields
07-27-2008, 07:01 PM
Just go ahead and stab me in the heart and get it over with already! :D

:evil: You mean like you did me on that losing comment ? :lol:


How can we lose? We're doing that already!

Raisor
07-27-2008, 07:17 PM
How much are they asking for him? I thought that one of the contenders would be interested in him, I guess I was wrong.

The report I heard was that they were asking for Conner Jackson from the Snakes or Kevin Youkilis and a reliver from the Redsox.

Spring~Fields
07-27-2008, 07:34 PM
The report I heard was that they were asking for Conner Jackson from the Snakes or Kevin Youkilis and a reliver from the Redsox.

Thanks Raisor

Conor Jackson .318 .402 .500 .902
Three year .280 .362 .441 .803
Age 26 $419,500

Mark Teixeira .281 .389 .507 .896
Three year .296 .382 .550 .932
Age 28 $12,500,000

The money doesn’t work out does it for Arizona? Or the risk of Teixeira leaving them after the season?

I think the guy would look good manning first for the Reds, hitting right behind Dunn. I wonder how much over Griffey’s reported 16.5 million next year will Teixeira will be getting? :)

Kevin Youkilis .313 .382 .547 .930
Three year .283 .386 .438 .824
Age 29 $3,000,000

I don’t know all there is to know about stats, but wouldn’t the other teams be giving up a bit more because of salary and the closeness in the stats and the risk of Teixeira leaving on the FA market at the end?

Raisor
07-27-2008, 07:38 PM
Both guys are having better years then Tex, or at least as good, and he's more expensive.

Spring~Fields
07-27-2008, 07:54 PM
Both guys are having better years then Tex, or at least as good, and he's more expensive.

Yes a lot more money, I don't think that Atlanta could pull that off straight up player for player. Do You?

Raisor
07-27-2008, 07:58 PM
Yes a lot more money, I don't think that Atlanta could pull that off straight up player for player. Do You?

I wouldn't think so.

OnBaseMachine
07-28-2008, 12:32 AM
Jon Heyman says the Rockies may have interest in Josh Fogg. Please Rockies, take him.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/07/27/rockies.holliday.fuentes/index.html?eref=writers

Jpup
07-28-2008, 12:44 AM
Jon Heyman says the Rockies may have interest in Josh Fogg. Please Rockies, take him.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/07/27/rockies.holliday.fuentes/index.html?eref=writers

everything I have read says they want Arroyo.

RedlegJake
07-28-2008, 10:03 AM
Josh Fogg (32) - if anyone wants him flip him, even prospect filler to help a minor league team, otherwise let him walk.
Jeremy Affeldt (30) - trade him before the deadline. Good pen arm but he should bring something back. After the season the only option is whether or not to resign him. Bring up Herrera to take his place, limit his exposure to an inning or less and he'll be fine. Or replace him with Pelland.
David Weathers (39) - again, flip him now. So he brings only a prospect. I don't want him resigned so anything now is better than just letting him walk. Replace him with Roenicke.
Mike Lincoln - At 33, Mike has a couple years left in his tank and is a guy I think is a legitimate setup type. Resign him for next season. I always think - does the guy have more value to us or as trade bait? Lincoln comes up strongly more valuable to the Reds.
Ken Griffey Jr. (39)- $16.5MM club option for '09 with a $4MM buyout. Buy him out. Gracefully. Thank him for the years, make the right pronouncements but decline him with the old "club is going in another direction but we love you, Ken" line.
Adam Dunn (29) - Remember the more valuable as bait or to us thing? Well, AD is off the charts more valuable to the Reds. Will he sign? Dunno, but I'd sure try hard to get it done. 4 years 60 million or 3 at 48 million with an option year.
Corey Patterson (29) - Just go away CP.
Jerry Hairston Jr. - Market him now while he's hot but with his injuries a return might be nil. So I'd try but be willing to resign him if his price is reasonable. Very good 4th OFer and role player - but he must be recognized as such and not a permanent solution to CF. I would be willing to accept him as a bridge to a more permanent solution, though, like teaming with Dickerson in CF until Henry/Cumberland/Stubbs or a trade solution appears.
Javier Valentin - He has the perception of coming through with a big clutch hit now and again but then I look at his numbers and realize just how fraught perceptions are. Let him walk unless someone is foolish enough to offer a prospect.
Paul Bako - Thank you for April, Paul. Now go away. Hanigan should already have your spot.
David Ross (32) - Flip him now for something. The Fish were sniffing and other teams might need a backup catcher with a bit of stick - a AA prospect is better than just watching him walk. Even if it means Hanigan and Bako platoon the rest of the way. No way I resign him.

Guys that aren't FAs that I'd be willing to wheel and deal IF the price were right.

Arroyo - His value will never be higher since his price rises dramatically next year. Half a year of a hot Arroyo in a pennant race at a bargain price followed by two years of market price for a good 3rd/4th starter isn't that difficult to move. Bronson's contract is really at market level for his ability. I'm not diametrically opposed to keeping him but I'd explore every trade scenario now since his value diminishes after the deadline and that value won't return until the year after next in his final contract year.
EE - Third baseman with his potential are rare - and his actual numbers are good enough to squeak him in the top ten list of ML third baseman right now. I'd listen to offers but the return would need to be very good. I'd listen now and again in the off season. Bridge him with Kepp until Frazier is ready.
BP - same thinking as EE. Wow me and he's yours with a bridge player taking his place (Kepp, Hairston) until Valaika's ready. No problem whatever keeping him so if you want one of the game's premiere second sackers, pay the price.
Freel - I wish someone wanted Farney and Ryan, a two for the price of one deal. Anyone? If not then he can play 5th OFer/2nd baseman as long as he's healthy. He proved his stick isn't gone - but he has lost a step and it shows in his running game. He takes the risks that his legs can no longer catch up with. One more year (or half year since he'll likely be hurt again).
Votto and Bruce - Keep these guys. I love both their games, attitudes and potential. Votto is gonna be a great hitter. Bruce is gonna be a great player.
Volquez and Cueto - Keep. How can you replace that kind of young talent?
Bailey and Thompson - I'd explore deals in the offseason for either of these guys. I suspect they have little value as deadline trades since they aren't material to make a run with right now. Clubs might want them as add-ons in a trade with someone else as principal. Either with Dunn might unlock his value in a deadline deal since the team would get a slugger for the run and a future consideration so they wouldn't be strictly renting a player. It better be a deal that knocks my socks off though.
Cordero - No trade clause and with his contract? It would be a salary relief deal since I doubt he would bring anything. I think you pay the piper that you already committed to and keep him.
Burton - On my keeper list.
Harang - His recent woes blew any trade value he has right now. In the off season I'd shop him with an eye to keeping him. Once again the old refrain - you better blow my socks off. BUT - if I can get a Haren like package the trigger would get pulled - with a wince.
Frazier, Valaika, other prospects - Sure I'll deal. I'd try to move prospects two ways. One to sweeten a pot that brings the Reds the right player(s) ready to contribute. Or - in deals that swap need for need. 3rd baseman Frazier or 2nd baseman Valaika for similar projectible prospects at catcher, CF or SS. Tit for Tat deals that strengthen each trade partner's minors by moving surplus positional talent for need at other positions.

Basically I want to forget this season - if we win ten games the rest of the way but load up for 2009 and 2010 I'm for it. I just don't see the players in demand by others to make drastic moves at the deadline. So after all the above I realize the Reds may just end up sitting pat for now. Weathers, Ross, Valentin et al - these guys may not bring enough to be worth trading though. Their only real trade value is before the deadline. What they bring back probably isn't worth their value in finishing up the season. I mean losing more games just to get rid of them isn't a plan and there aren't clearly equal replacements available right now, so moving them likely means this years team gets even worse without adding any future value. And if deals for the best players don't bring the right return then moving them is selling out now AND the future. Walt is certain to be shopping and talking but the right deals simply may not be there. The off season is when he'll HAVE to make some big decisions. Moves are coming but they are more likely in December than the end of this month.

Spring~Fields
07-28-2008, 11:20 AM
I wouldn't think so.

Source isn't real good but, here is his take.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/notebook?page=bbtn

It could be a challenge for the Braves to trade Mark Teixeira. How many playoff contenders really need a first baseman? The Mets are not going to trade for Teixeira, not with how Carlos Delgado has been swinging the bat. The Phillies have Ryan Howard. The Cubs have Derrek Lee. The Brewers have Prince Fielder. The Cardinals have Albert Pujols. If the Braves decide they want to trade Teixeira, how many outlets are there? The Dodgers have James Loney, and they're not going to trade him. Teixeira is a Gold Glove first baseman, so you don't want him as a DH. So that means forget the Red Sox, even if David Ortiz has a setback. The Angels look like they'll stand pat and the A's don't look like they are going to do much since they've stumbled a bit. I would expect Teixeira to stay in Atlanta for the remainder of the season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/notebook?page=bbtn

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=mlb_trade_deadline&month=7&year=2008&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fesp n%2fblog%2findex%3fname%3dmlb_trade_deadline%26mon th%3d7%26year%3d2008

Spring~Fields
07-28-2008, 11:28 AM
Basically I want to forget this season - if we win ten games the rest of the way but load up for 2009 and 2010 I'm for it.


I would like to see some positive movement in that direction, making solid progress with the time available forward, visible contributions being added for next year.

Good list and input Jake.

Spring~Fields
07-28-2008, 11:40 AM
Lincoln is older than I thought at age 33. I'm not sure if he has enough service time to be a free agent at season's end. He isn't shown among the Free Agent's on Cot's which says he only has 4.126 years of service time. If true, he's under control for next year, but given his age, I'd flip him for a decent offer.

I didn't see him on any list either with the exception of maybe an Enquirer article, I thought maybe he was just on a one year contract deal.

Can Lincoln get better considering that he was off for a time, and this was his year back, where some make a better showing after that first year back?

Spring~Fields
07-28-2008, 11:46 AM
Obviously I'm guessing at what Dunn will demand because I don't think anyone really knows at this point.

I think that you're right, I don't think even Adam Dunn or his agent would be certain right now at this point either. I think that his agent will need the comps from the FA market and other players to be sure that he is doing the best for his client when that time comes.

Nugget
07-28-2008, 11:49 AM
I believe Lincoln is arbitration eligible next year.

Although one of the bigger problems once again for the REDS is starting pitching. One forgets that Harang may be injured and the board seems to be on a mission to run Arroyo out of town. So that leaves 3 young uns, the unreliable Beslisle. If the REDS get a healthy Harang and Arroyo stays then I think we can decide about adding pieces, getting the waiver wire return.

Spring~Fields
07-28-2008, 11:50 AM
Jon Heyman says the Rockies may have interest in Josh Fogg. Please Rockies, take him.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/07/27/rockies.holliday.fuentes/index.html?eref=writers

Something about a Jimmy Haynes, Jimmy Anderson, or a Eric Milton always seems to find their way into the Reds house bringing along a stigma of negativity, they seem to be the anti-performance. So too is Fogg and Patterson, I think, and just believe that these types need to be exterminated from the roster as soon as possible or when they are recognized as non-performers. Wait and see just never seems to work out with these types.

Spring~Fields
07-28-2008, 11:56 AM
Good point about Dunn's maybe making all of the talk irrelevant.

I think that Dunn has paid his dues, and that he will think so also, and I believe that it would be natural for Dunn to want to be with a winning team after spending several years on a team that has seen better times.

I can't imagine why he would want to return to the Reds organization when he can get good money and maybe be on a winning team also elsewhere.

Spring~Fields
07-28-2008, 12:03 PM
I believe Lincoln is arbitration eligible next year.

Although one of the bigger problems once again for the REDS is starting pitching. One forgets that Harang may be injured and the board seems to be on a mission to run Arroyo out of town. So that leaves 3 young uns, the unreliable Beslisle. If the REDS get a healthy Harang and Arroyo stays then I think we can decide about adding pieces, getting the waiver wire return.

The problems with Arroyo, Harang, and others convinces me that the Reds still need starting pitching. The young which can feed optimism are not proven and next year they could implode. Jocketty being the veteran GM that he is, is aware of all of this and is to be positioning the team to acquire the necessary talent to meet the Reds needs in starting and relief pitching through his player resource management.

One concern I have is that Jocketty doesn’t have the funds that he had in St. Louis and he doesn’t have the pitching coach Duncan, can he achieve the same lofty accomplishment when working with less?

Spring~Fields
07-28-2008, 12:14 PM
If the rest of MLB put half the value on Dunn that this board does, we would be talking HUGE bidding war to rent him. It is just ridiculous to kid yourselves into thinking Dunn has that kind of value. He is a one-dimensional, very expense quarterback carrying a baseball bat.

Though you and I as fans may have our problems at times accepting Mr. Dunn, how do we honestly dismiss his OBP, SLG, while giving the rest that produce less than him a free pass ?

I will stick my neck out and say, I don't think that Albert Pujols using his best year could lead the Reds to the winner circle without a good supporting cast.
Our years as fans with Dunn or Griffey for that matter have been filled with teams that just haven't had the other necessary parts to make the Reds a winner.

Deion Sanders, Donnie Sadler types became Freel, Patterson, Hopper types, not even Pujols can taste of victory with too many those types filling out a roster year after year.

Spring~Fields
07-28-2008, 12:27 PM
trade everyone on this list except Mike Lincoln.

If they aren't good enough for the other teams to want, then they aren't good enough for the Reds. If the players can't give the other teams what they need, then the Reds don't need them either, and should be moving forward in a proactive way to have the types of players that other teams treasure.

Jpup
07-28-2008, 12:36 PM
Source isn't real good but, here is his take.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/notebook?page=bbtn

It could be a challenge for the Braves to trade Mark Teixeira. How many playoff contenders really need a first baseman? The Mets are not going to trade for Teixeira, not with how Carlos Delgado has been swinging the bat. The Phillies have Ryan Howard. The Cubs have Derrek Lee. The Brewers have Prince Fielder. The Cardinals have Albert Pujols. If the Braves decide they want to trade Teixeira, how many outlets are there? The Dodgers have James Loney, and they're not going to trade him. Teixeira is a Gold Glove first baseman, so you don't want him as a DH. So that means forget the Red Sox, even if David Ortiz has a setback. The Angels look like they'll stand pat and the A's don't look like they are going to do much since they've stumbled a bit. I would expect Teixeira to stay in Atlanta for the remainder of the season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/notebook?page=bbtn

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=mlb_trade_deadline&month=7&year=2008&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fesp n%2fblog%2findex%3fname%3dmlb_trade_deadline%26mon th%3d7%26year%3d2008

The Yankees could really use him, but I'm not sure they would let go of the pieces Atlanta would want. Richie Sexson isn't an answer. If Johnny Damon could still play center then the Yankees would be in great shape. It looks like Nady is going to play left, most of the time, while Damon will DH.

The Angels would be another fit. I wouldn't bet against Texas going after him again.