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icehole3
07-27-2008, 03:22 PM
this team for years has made game in game out chock full of mental errors, why is this so embedded into the Reds, it's like 1st year little league. Im almost at the point where I hope they go nuclear with a smart bomb on this team again and just bring up some hungry rookies and teach them how to run bases and hit cutoff men. Totally frustrated with this group and tired of watching them botch routine basic baseball plays. That nonsense yesterday was pathetic, I saw Jr give up on 2 easy flies and he's wondering why fans are ripping him and dont get me started on Ed E, he's playing third like he's had brain surgery, Im sick of it, man when does college football start?

http://www.sternfannetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/Eyes/uh-oh.gif

deltachi8
07-27-2008, 04:17 PM
feel free to change the channel. i think it's allowed.

Caseyfan21
07-27-2008, 04:19 PM
This team just has a low baseball IQ...plain and simple as that.

Will M
07-27-2008, 04:21 PM
Last night was the final straw for me. The Reds are just abyssmal defensively. Time to move or dump anyone that can't at least play acceptable defense at one position and hit .250 .
This is almost the entire team!

Keep:
1. Phillips - gold glover at 2B
2. Bruce - decent in CF and plus in RF/LF
3. Kep - can't play SS due to weak range but can play 2B/3B. starting to look overmatched as an everyday player but. may be best as a platoon vs LHP and spot starter vs RHP.
4. Freel of all people can actually play decent defense in RF and LF.
5. Votto SEEMS to be better defensively lately. if he keeps it up he can stay.

Help on the way?:
Janish was terrible at the plate so I don't think we can count on him.
Dickerson by all accounts plays a good CF but the Reds don't seem to think much of him. Maybe 4th/5th OF material. Cumberland hasn't hit in AAA. Valaiaka is still at AA.

Let go:
Ross, Bako, Javy all are subpar defensively.
Jr has zero range.
Dunn has actually looked better defensively this year but he still is a poor outfielder.
Patterson goes because he can't hit .200 .
I really like Hairston but I think he goes. He plays 2B best and really can't play CF. In a pinch he could be reupped and play LF or in a semiplatoon with Dickerson getting some ABs here. However LF is a position where we would hope to get some more power.

Trade:
1. EE - he just sucks defensively. so so so bad.
2. Gonzo if he ever gets healthy. another Krivsky SS who wasn't as good as advertised defensively.

So the 2009 lineup is:
1B Votto
2B Phillips
SS acquisition
3B Kep vs LHP. acquisition vs RHP
RF bruce
CF acquisition
LF acquisition. possibly Hairston.
C acquisition

Yep. We have 3.5 players who can catch the ball. No wonder we have the
2nd worst defense in the league.

As for who to get to play 4.5 open spots, well theres the rub.
We have EE as bait and not much else to trade. Maybe Maloney.
Free agents look weak at catcher and SS.
Free agents who can catch the ball:
1. Teixeira would look good at 1B. Now only can he hit but he has a very good glove. Votto could be moved to fill a hole elsewhere.
2. Cesar Izturis and Orlando Cabrera can field but can't hit. Furcal just had back surgery.
3. Pat Burrel has zero errors in LF and has the 2nd highest zone rating for left fielders in MLB!

Use the money coming off the books to get Tex and Burrell.
Move EE/Votto/+ for a catcher/SS/CF.
A 3-4-5 of Bruce-Tex-Burrel is a great start to an offense.

RedlegJake
07-28-2008, 11:34 AM
Well everyone get ready to to be sick because I'll bet my house the 2009 Reds have a lineup that includes Hairston as CF, and AGon as SS.

Votto - 1B
BP - 2B
AGon - SS
EE - 3B
C - TBD
CF - Hairston Jr.
RF - Bruce
LF - TBD

I'll bet Walt's acquisitions include a left fielder taking over for Dunn, and a catcher, with most of the rest of his trades affecting the pitching staff.

Matt700wlw
07-28-2008, 11:40 AM
Every year we hear how fundamentals will be emphasized...I'm still waiting...

paulrichjr
07-28-2008, 02:36 PM
It is amazing...and I mean amazing how watching this team in person will make you think different. I went to the Friday game and was amazed at the following:

1. Griffey is just awful in the OF. TV doesn't show the 1/2 of it. I never understood how bad until seeing it in person.
2. Kepp has no arm. None. And he has no range to go with no arm.
3. Phillips is awesome defensively.
4. EdE can't make a solid throw at all. I guess I am about to give up on him at 3B also.
5. Votto ain't bad at 1B. I was pleasantly surprised.
6. No comparison to this team defensively and the Rocks. Their defense really shined and showed that defense is huge.
7. Volquez was not good but it seemed to me that the defense cost him a lot of extra pitches and he threw a ton of pitches that were almost strikes but not quiet strikes. It seemed he was getting squeezed. That being said...he sure isn't Aaron Cook.

Will M
07-28-2008, 03:54 PM
It is amazing...and I mean amazing how watching this team in person will make you think different. I went to the Friday game and was amazed at the following:

1. Griffey is just awful in the OF. TV doesn't show the 1/2 of it. I never understood how bad until seeing it in person.
2. Kepp has no arm. None. And he has no range to go with no arm.
3. Phillips is awesome defensively.
4. EdE can't make a solid throw at all. I guess I am about to give up on him at 3B also.
5. Votto ain't bad at 1B. I was pleasantly surprised.
6. No comparison to this team defensively and the Rocks. Their defense really shined and showed that defense is huge.
7. Volquez was not good but it seemed to me that the defense cost him a lot of extra pitches and he threw a ton of pitches that were almost strikes but not quiet strikes. It seemed he was getting squeezed. That being said...he sure isn't Aaron Cook.

I do think Votto's D is getting better. A lot of his errors were early in the season.

I feel sorry for Reds pitchers some nights. I wonder what the Reds team ERA would be with the 1990 Reds defense behind them or some of the late 90s early 2000s Cardinals defenses ( Edmonds, Rolen, etc )

Ltlabner
07-28-2008, 04:01 PM
EE...yet another tallented Reds player that will get run out of town on a rail because some fans can't see past one (hidiously over magnified) flaw in his game.

Will M
07-28-2008, 04:04 PM
EE...yet another Reds player that will get run out of town on a rail because some fans can't see past one (hidiously over magnified) flaw in his game.

it is not a hidiously overmagnified flaw. the guy just can't play 3B. as to his offensive capabilities i have no issue with him. if he can play 1B or LF then he can be an asset.

Ltlabner
07-28-2008, 04:18 PM
it is not a hidiously overmagnified flaw. the guy just can't play 3B. as to his offensive capabilities i have no issue with him. if he can play 1B or LF then he can be an asset.

Laughable.

Ignore his range and the number of simply amazing plays he makes.

Ignore that some of his errors are attributable to other players. Some of those throwing errors are because Votto isn't fully up to speed digging the ball out of the dirt. Yesterady he got tagged with an error on a foulball because Ross tried to catch a ball that was EE's.

Does he have issues throwing the ball from time to time? Obviously. But to focus on that one flaw and make statements like "he can't play third" because of them is akin to saying Dunn is da sux because of his low BA.

Will M
07-28-2008, 04:44 PM
Laughable.

Ignore his range and the number of simply amazing plays he makes.

Ignore that some of his errors are attributable to other players. Some of those throwing errors are because Votto isn't fully up to speed digging the ball out of the dirt. Yesterady he got tagged with an error on a foulball because Ross tried to catch a ball that was EE's.

Does he have issues throwing the ball from time to time? Obviously. But to focus on that one flaw and make statements like "he can't play third" because of them is akin to saying Dunn is da sux because of his low BA.

EE's range is ... awful. Only Aramis Ramirez has worse range at 3B in the NL.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=8&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=81&sortColumn=rangeFactor

EE can't throw and has no range. Another DH playing the field for the Reds.

RedsManRick
07-28-2008, 05:19 PM
When watching any player defensively, I think we often suffer from a lack of direct comparison. Sure, EE makes the occasional great play. Those tend to stick out in our minds. And while we want to subtract out the throwing errors, we overstate the value of giving those back to him.

We're simply not very good at intuitively comparing what a given player does compared to an abstract standard. This goes for any range of issues.

Even if you were to give him credit for the bulk of his throw errors on the assumption it's something he'll fix, EE's rate at fielding balls in zone (literally defined as the point at which the average 3B makes the play) is at the 25% percentile of qualified 3B. And his rate of balls fielded out of zone per inning is lower than everybody but Bill Hall and Melvin Mora.

It's more or less the same story last year and the same in 2006.

While no defensive metric is perfect, there's a strong consensus that EE isn't very good. You could argue that he can still improve, but you're looking at significant improvement required to get to average for an established starting 3B.

If Dunn walks, I think EE should be considered for a corner OF spot. The FA market at 3B isn't much better than OF, but perhaps the trade market would be friendlier. In any case, we need to accept that EE is a sub-par fielder throwing issues aside. I've never been on the trade EE wagon, but if improving the defense is a top priority and Griffey and Dunn are gone, he's next in line.

_Sir_Charles_
07-28-2008, 05:31 PM
I agree with the moving of EE to the OF (or even first base). We've got multiple options available for 3B in the near future down on the farm. Until they're ready, Kepp could be a pretty solid replacement for third I'd think. If we consider EE for 1st, then Votto goes to LF and Kepp to 3rd. Edwin's bat, while hot & cold, is solid enough for a starter. His glove work is pretty decent too. But his range and his arm are his biggest liabilities. 1st base and LF both minimize those liabilities. But moving him also improves Kepps position too. He's better suited for 3rd than SS.

Spring~Fields
07-28-2008, 05:46 PM
Well everyone get ready to to be sick because I'll bet my house the 2009 Reds have a lineup that includes Hairston as CF, and AGon as SS.

Votto - 1B
BP - 2B
AGon - SS
EE - 3B
C - TBD
CF - Hairston Jr.
RF - Bruce
LF - TBD



2009 Lineup
Patterson CF
Phillips SS
Bruce RF
Gonzalez 3B
Encarncion 1B
Votto LF
Hairston 2B
Bako C

Based upon the theory that CF leads off, shortstop bats second, RF or respect bats third, batters with no business hitting fourth, bat fourth, and batters that get on base more often than others bat down in the order.

Hey GAC !! This Buds for you :all_cohol er um lineup :fineprint <--Dusty's lineup card. :lol:

RedlegJake
07-28-2008, 09:51 PM
2009 Lineup
Patterson CF
Phillips SS
Bruce RF
Gonzalez 3B
Encarncion 1B
Votto LF
Hairston 2B
Bako C

Based upon the theory that CF leads off, shortstop bats second, RF or respect bats third, batters with no business hitting fourth, bat fourth, and batters that get on base more often than others bat down in the order.

Hey GAC !! This Buds for you :all_cohol er um lineup :fineprint <--Dusty's lineup card. :lol:

Well, Ken, I don't think your lineup is going to be there but hopefully you're joking. Sadly, I'm not - mine wasn't in 1-8 lineup form but simply who I think the 2009 starters will be and I stand by it. I do think Walt will acquire a catcher and some bat of some sort to halfway replace Dunn, who I don't think they'll re-sign. I really do believe the Reds already see Hairston Jr as next years CFer and AGon as the SS. I hope I'm wrong but I see it coming.

Spring~Fields
07-29-2008, 12:15 AM
Well, Ken, I don't think your lineup is going to be there but hopefully you're joking. Sadly, I'm not - mine wasn't in 1-8 lineup form but simply who I think the 2009 starters will be and I stand by it. I do think Walt will acquire a catcher and some bat of some sort to halfway replace Dunn, who I don't think they'll re-sign. I really do believe the Reds already see Hairston Jr as next years CFer and AGon as the SS. I hope I'm wrong but I see it coming.

Only halfway joking. I can see what you are saying and why, and I can see where the names may change with what I was saying, but, I can see where it may very well be the same song, different singers. Then again a close version of what I wrote honestly would not surprise me.

Very serisous, Jocketty will have to get some very good players to man CF, SS, etc with this manager and his approach or we will see the same next year. Otherwise a Hairston with a history of injuries could be in CF, leading off, and Gonzalez batting second, soon as Hairston goes down, the Reds will have grief batting one two.

Rojo
07-29-2008, 02:43 AM
I believe in letting ballplayers tell you where they should play and EdE-5 is telling me leftfield.

Patrick Bateman
07-29-2008, 04:03 AM
LF acquisition. possibly Hairston.


I think you'd be hard pressed to find a less desirable option to get at-bats in left field on virtually any team. Seriously, your answer to improve the team is to ditch the team's best hitter, for the sole reason of improving the defense in left?

Ron Madden
07-29-2008, 05:06 AM
I like Kepp, I really do.

I like Hairston, I really do.

I like RedsZone, I really do but "FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD!!!" Kepp and Hairston are Utility Players.

;)

Will M
07-29-2008, 09:46 AM
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a less desirable option to get at-bats in left field on virtually any team. Seriously, your answer to improve the team is to ditch the team's best hitter, for the sole reason of improving the defense in left?

yes. I am sick of watching DHs in the field.

Pat Burrell is as good as Dunn offensively and much much better defensively. I only mentioned Hairston because he has been so good in the leadoff spot. IF ( big if ) you could find a stud hiiter at CF-SS-C ( say Matt Kemp ) then you could afford to play a guy like Hairston in LF.

Hitting alone does not win games. Hitting, defense & pitching are all important.

Ltlabner
07-29-2008, 09:57 AM
I like Kepp, I really do.

I like Hairston, I really do.

I like RedsZone, I really do but "FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD!!!" Kepp and Hairston are Utility Players.

;)

For once I am in total agreement with you Ron. I like Kepp as a player but he's being exposed playing every day. Hariston has been solid this year, but expecting him to repeat this year, after so many other blech years is foolhardy.

But hey, we all know that Dunn and (apparently) now EE are killing this team.

nate
07-29-2008, 10:08 AM
yes. I am sick of watching DHs in the field.

Then you're sick of watching basically every left fielder in the game.


Pat Burrell is as good as Dunn offensively and much much better defensively.

Burrell and Dunn are about even defensively. Burrell also has 3 years on Dunn. So you want to get a guy who's likely to be more expensive and deeper into his "decline" years than Dunn?


I only mentioned Hairston because he has been so good in the leadoff spot.

Yeah, he's strung together a great series of 124 ABs in the leadoff spot this year. I don't really want to ink his name into the lineup spot based on such a small blip.


IF ( big if ) you could find a stud hiiter at CF-SS-C ( say Matt Kemp ) then you could afford to play a guy like Hairston in LF.

I would say that if the Reds lose Dunn, they'd need to find stud hitters at all three of those positions to make up and exceed the offense they lose. At least, they'd need to find stud hitters at two of those three positions without Dunn.

But you're bringing up defense as well so, by your own argument, you have to find a guy with a great glove and a great bat. That's a pretty tall order to find for your entire up the middle defense. It won't be cheap.


Hitting alone does not win games. Hitting, defense & pitching are all important.

I would be so bold as to say that Dunn's total package of hitting + defense has won more games during his time here than anyone else. I think it would be next to impossible to argue otherwise.

Will M
07-29-2008, 02:22 PM
Then you're sick of watching basically every left fielder in the game.



Burrell and Dunn are about even defensively. Burrell also has 3 years on Dunn. So you want to get a guy who's likely to be more expensive and deeper into his "decline" years than Dunn?



Yeah, he's strung together a great series of 124 ABs in the leadoff spot this year. I don't really want to ink his name into the lineup spot based on such a small blip.



I would say that if the Reds lose Dunn, they'd need to find stud hitters at all three of those positions to make up and exceed the offense they lose. At least, they'd need to find stud hitters at two of those three positions without Dunn.

But you're bringing up defense as well so, by your own argument, you have to find a guy with a great glove and a great bat. That's a pretty tall order to find for your entire up the middle defense. It won't be cheap.



I would be so bold as to say that Dunn's total package of hitting + defense has won more games during his time here than anyone else. I think it would be next to impossible to argue otherwise.

Matsui, Holliday & Byrnes are NOT DHs.

Burrell has zero errors this year compared to Dunn's five. In the last three years Burrell has 13 errors and Dunn has 23.

I am in no way advocating giving Hairston a fat contract nor stating he is some kind of God. IF somehow we got some studs to play C-SS-CF ( both defensively and offensively ) then I am ok with Hairston coming back for a one year deal and getting 400 ABs in LF. This is not likely to happen.

The Reds likely will lose Dunn. They show no signs of wanting him to stay. I agree that we would need to find stars at 2/3 positions to replace Dunn offensively.

Dunn may have contributed to more wins while here than any other players. Kind of like saying he is the least sucky player we have. The Reds have not had a single winning season with Dunn in LF. I am not bashing him nor blaming him for the Reds problems. I am saying that IMO its time for a change - build a true pitching and defense team.

Patrick Bateman
07-29-2008, 02:47 PM
yes. I am sick of watching DHs in the field.

Pat Burrell is as good as Dunn offensively and much much better defensively. I only mentioned Hairston because he has been so good in the leadoff spot. IF ( big if ) you could find a stud hiiter at CF-SS-C ( say Matt Kemp ) then you could afford to play a guy like Hairston in LF.

Hitting alone does not win games. Hitting, defense & pitching are all important.

Your preaching to the choir. I have been a strong advocate of improving the defense, but at what cost?

So Hairston might save you 10ish runs over a full season in replace of Dunn... but at the same time your downgrading in OPS of over .900 to around .700. Defense is nice, but in the end the offense is still going to carry most of the bulk, especially in left field. Your not going to improve the team by fielding nothing but judy hitting fielders. Fielding accounts for something like 17% of the game of baseball, and hitting 45%.

The problem right now is that we suck in both. If you want to improve the defense, grab some glove men in some key spots in CF, SS, and C. We have nothing there for the forseeable future, and getting some fielders there may be the best way to get obtainable value. That's where the major defensive upgrades are going to take place.

I'm not opposed to trying something else in left field. Improving the defense there would be one way of getting more value than Dunn. But you need to find a better replacement than Hairston. He's had a nice little run, but in the end, he's the same guy who has stunk since the beginning of the decade. If I really thought he could post an OPS around .830 with rangy defense, I could see where keeping Dunn would not be the best value. But that's not Hairston, and he never will be.

Such a move would do extremely little in improving the overall defense of the team. Upgrading the defense where the least amount of balls are hit should be last on the list of priorities. As of now, Dunn is not the problem. His bat outweighs the defense big time. It's the crappy hitting, poor defensive guys who aren't contributing.

nate
07-29-2008, 02:47 PM
Matsui, Holliday & Byrnes are NOT DHs.

Great. You found 3. Matsui is actually a good comp for Dunn. He makes about the same money.

Except he's not really as good offensively, he's old and he's been injured a lot.

Isn't Holiday a product of Coors? How will his <.800 away OPS play at GABP?

Eric Byrnes? Really? Can he play 154 games in a year. Can he OPS >.800?


Burrell has zero errors this year compared to Dunn's five. In the last three years Burrell has 13 errors and Dunn has 23.

Errors is the ultimate measure of fielding? Who cares? It's left field, not shortstop. Dunn's defense is not the problem.


I am in no way advocating giving Hairston a fat contract nor stating he is some kind of God. IF somehow we got some studs to play C-SS-CF ( both defensively and offensively ) then I am ok with Hairston coming back for a one year deal and getting 400 ABs in LF. This is not likely to happen.

And for that, I'm thankful. Not that he's not a useful player but I don't him as a LF option.

As to the other part, great idea. Who are they? How can we get them?

I don't think the players you want are all attainable by the Reds before the first pitch is thrown in 2009.


The Reds likely will lose Dunn. They show no signs of wanting him to stay. I agree that we would need to find stars at 2/3 positions to replace Dunn offensively.

I think neither you or I have any idea of the Reds intentions to resign Dunn.


Dunn may have contributed to more wins while here than any other players. Kind of like saying he is the least sucky player we have.

Apologies, but this is absolute rubbish.


The Reds have not had a single winning season with Dunn in LF. I am not bashing him nor blaming him for the Reds problems. I am saying that IMO its time for a change - build a true pitching and defense team.

That sounds like a formula for losing a bunch of 2-1 games.

Gotta hit the ball too.

Will M
07-29-2008, 04:30 PM
[QUOTE=Austin Kearns;1705402]
If you want to improve the defense, grab some glove men in some key spots in CF, SS, and C. We have nothing there for the forseeable future, and getting some fielders there may be the best way to get obtainable value. That's where the major defensive upgrades are going to take place.

[QUOTE]

agree. Phillips is great at 2B. i want to see grade A or B defenders at C-SS-CF and at least grade C defenders at 1B-3B-LF-RF. I could accept a weak defender in LF ( as most teams have them ) IF we were set elsewhere.

you are correct. the position players the Reds have are as a whole not getting it done with either the bat or the glove.

some people say we are just a couple of moves away from being a good team. i don't see it that way. i see some real talent mixed with a ton of holes and no real plan expressed by the front office

VR
07-29-2008, 04:40 PM
If Dunn stays and Bruce goes to right, the team needs to find a real centerfielder. Bruce can hold his own in right, and a plus CF can compensate for Dunn at an acceptable level.


Big picture for this team, going back to the thread title....is the incredible advantage they give their opponents with their overall sloppy play.

They nearly have the league lead in physical errors.

Throw on top of that the baserunning gaffes, lack of DP's, inability to GET to so many balls at SS/RF/LF, and the 'unforced errors' are giving the opponents a tremendous bonus on a nightly basis.

Will M
07-29-2008, 04:44 PM
If Dunn stays and Bruce goes to right, the team needs to find a real centerfielder. Bruce can hold his own in right, and a plus CF can compensate for Dunn at an acceptable level.


Big picture for this team, going back to the thread title....is the incredible advantage they give their opponents with their overall sloppy play.

They nearly have the league lead in physical errors.

Throw on top of that the baserunning gaffes, lack of DP's, inabiltiy to GET to so many balls at SS/RF/LF, and the 'unforced errors' are giving the opponents a tremendous bonus on a nightly basis.

agree with everything you said.

i have been pleasantly suprised at how well the Reds pitchers seem to keep it together mentally/emotionally on the mound when the Reds botch or plays or just don't have the range to get to balls that other teams do. you would think at a certain point some younger pitcher might just go off on the whole team.