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View Full Version : How long will Walt's honeymoon last?



KoryMac5
07-27-2008, 09:12 PM
Whenever someone takes over a position at the top whether it be a coach or GM they are usually given a grace period. How long will this grace period be for Walt?

My guess is that it is over after the trade deadline.

fearofpopvol1
07-27-2008, 09:15 PM
The interesting thing is since Walt has taken over for Krivsky, he has made zero moves (unless you count him being slightly more aggressive with a few minor leaguers and signing Rob Machoviak). Outside of that, he's pretty must been status quo.

It makes you wonder if Wayne were still here if he would've found any hidden gems or tried to make any moves during the time that Walt hasn't.

Unassisted
07-27-2008, 09:41 PM
If Castellini didn't know and trust Walt, he'd probably be given a year and a half to demonstrate that he was righting the ship. As long as things don't slip drastically, I'd figure Walt gets 2-3 years to demonstrate that.

Frankly, I'm more interested in seeing how long Dusty's honeymoon lasts. I don't see him getting more than a season of honeymoon.

KoryMac5
07-27-2008, 09:46 PM
If Castellini didn't know and trust Walt, he'd probably be given a year and a half to demonstrate that he was righting the ship. As long as things don't slip drastically, I'd figure Walt gets 2-3 years to demonstrate that.

Frankly, I'm more interested in seeing how long Dusty's honeymoon lasts. I don't see him getting more than a season of honeymoon.

I think Dusty's honeymoon is going to be shorter than Walt's because of fan approval. Walt has a track record to fall back on with the fans from his days in St. Louis. All fans can remember about Dusty is that he ruined Prior and wood. If Walt doesn't make any moves at the deadline the fans may get restless.

The Baumer
07-27-2008, 09:50 PM
We need Walt to get us our Tino Martinez/Will Clark so we can win 20 games in a row and win the wild card.

I BELIEVE IN WALT JOCKERTY.

KronoRed
07-27-2008, 09:51 PM
When is the losing gonna stop is what I would like to know.

Kc61
07-27-2008, 09:56 PM
Walt and Dusty are going nowhere except GABP. Frankly, I'm glad they don't have itchy fingers with the roster. Walt is learning the Reds players and prospects, planning his moves, and will act. Maybe starting at the deadline, more likely in the off-season.

My guess is that Walt will be trading current Reds players and prospects for proven major league talent. But whatever he does, I'm sure that by now he has a plan and will execute it.

Jocketty is not just some guy that you cut loose after a few months. His honeymoon will last several years, probably as long as he feels like keeping this job.

redsfan4445
07-27-2008, 10:12 PM
Walt wil be active in the off season.. this season is a wash after this weekend.. this team gets to 3 games under .500 and then go on a losing swoon.. sucks it always happens, but it reflects on the coaching staff..Walt will be graded on what he does up to spring training 2009..

edabbs44
07-27-2008, 10:18 PM
Checkpoint one happens this week.

Checkpoint two happens this winter.

GAC
07-27-2008, 10:25 PM
Walt has a track record to fall back on with the fans from his days in St. Louis.

But Dorothy's not in Kansas anymore. ;)

I'm fully behind Walt. But just because he had a sound track record while at St. Louis does not mean he is going to replicate that in Cincy. But it does put that added pressure on him, by the Cincy fans, to do so. And obviously to do so overnight. Look at some of the pressure (and criticism) the guy was getting in the first few weeks of his tenure because he hadn't made any deals/trades? Yet those leveling those charges seemed to completely ignore the fact that teams don't make deals, at least not of any significance, in May and June. They like to use the closeness of the trading deadline, and a team's urgency, to get the best deal possible.

Now if Walt doesn't make any deals before the trading deadline next week the "honeymoon" is over.

Silly, silly Red's fans who are more ruled by their emotions then rationale.

If you don't have the trading chips to begin with, or if other GMs are not offering you anything of worth for whatever players they may have shown interest in, then that's Walt's fault for not somehow "manufacturing" one (or two) in order to appease the "angry mob"?

If there is no marker for your players, then what is he to do?

His best chances to make his mark is on the off-season IMO.

Always Red
07-27-2008, 10:26 PM
What this organization really needs is some stability and continuity.

My hope is that Walt Jocketty and (yes) Dusty Baker are here for years and years. Of course, that means Dusty is making all the right moves on the field and Walt making the right decisions off the field.

Change is not always good- we have vast experience with that here lately. Sometimes too much change will just make you dizzy. We've had 2 owners, 5 GM's and I've lost track of how many managers- permanent and interim- all since 2003.

redsmetz
07-27-2008, 10:34 PM
I think Dusty's honeymoon is going to be shorter than Walt's because of fan approval. Walt has a track record to fall back on with the fans from his days in St. Louis. All fans can remember about Dusty is that he ruined Prior and wood. If Walt doesn't make any moves at the deadline the fans may get restless.

Explain the math to me here. Twelve out of fourteen years as a successful manager (3 1st place finishes, six 2nd place finishes - including winning the NL title in one) doesn't stand up to 13 years for Jocketty with six division titles (2 NL championships and one WS victory). Not exactly the same, but I would suggest that Baker has had nearly the same success as Jocketty and yet he continues to be hounded for a season when two pitchers who many believe would have fallen apart for whoever their manager was. I really don't get it. Perceptions becomes reality?

toledodan
07-27-2008, 10:36 PM
i would be happy if they would let dick pole go. it seems with all the changes that have been made he is still here and the same crap happens with the pitching.

corkedbat
07-27-2008, 10:53 PM
Depends. This is an organization in need of a shakeup. Most of the more expendable parts are free-agents-to-be and/or have litle value. If Dunn, Junior and Arroyo are gone there will be some financial flexibility and there may be a useful starter or two within the Reds reach.

At a minimum, this team needs to add a starting C and a solid OF bat who can also play soild D (can be a corner or CF). The bench needs to be re-vmaped wityh ore punch too (at least one solid bat from each side) and an all-around SS would be welcome (but not as high a priority, IMO). Another solid reliever is always handy for competition, but will become a necessity if Affeldt & Lincoln aren't re-upped.

I think Jocketty has at least three years in Castellini's eyes, but for the restless fanbase, I think the look of the roster come the start of Spring Training will be a watershed.

How wisely WJ spends in FA and how he is able to acquire talent without creating new holes in the young nucleus of this team by then will determine the length of the honeymoon.

LoganBuck
07-27-2008, 11:08 PM
For me the honeymoon ends if he doesn't get Yonder Alonso signed by August 15th. It will get real ugly if he doesn't

WVRedsFan
07-28-2008, 12:27 AM
Hard to make moves when no one wants what you have unless you give it away. I think Walt is smart enough to realize that and will do his work prior to the start of the 2009 season.

AmarilloRed
07-28-2008, 12:34 AM
There's not a whole lot he can do prior to the trade deadline, as it seems to be a buyer's market. I think his honeymoon should last through the off-season. We should give him a chance to show what he can do, at least that long.

Caveat Emperor
07-28-2008, 01:00 AM
Whenever someone takes over a position at the top whether it be a coach or GM they are usually given a grace period. How long will this grace period be for Walt?

My guess is that it is over after the trade deadline.

No offense, but don't you think it's kinda ridiculous to not even give the man one offseason to build his team?

OnBaseMachine
07-28-2008, 01:07 AM
Walt obviously deserves a couple years to build his team but I've gotta say, I'm going to be pretty ticked if he doesn't make any moves before the deadline. Affeldt, Weathers, and Ross are all rumored to be drawing interested from teams and should be dealt IMO. Losing those three doesn't hurt the team.

Jpup
07-28-2008, 01:12 AM
He never had one with me. He was a hired gun that has not had a single bullet. I still can't figure out why Wayne Krivsky was fired. The losing was going to stop, but I haven't seen it yet. Jocketty has not done anything as the GM of the Reds. If Krivsky had sat around for months and done nothing, he would be castrated by this board. All the talk about Krivsky not knowing how to build a bullpen has turned out to be BS just as I thought. The Reds have one of the better pens in the NL.

I hope that Jocketty gets it going soon.

RedsManRick
07-28-2008, 02:00 AM
He never had one with me. He was a hired gun that has not had a single bullet. I still can't figure out why Wayne Krivsky was fired. The losing was going to stop, but I haven't seen it yet. Jocketty has not done anything as the GM of the Reds. If Krivsky had sat around for months and done nothing, he would be castrated by this board. All the talk about Krivsky not knowing how to build a bullpen has turned out to be BS just as I thought. The Reds have one of the better pens in the NL.

I hope that Jocketty gets it going soon.

This is what I don't understand. If Jocketty's big plan is to sit around and shepherd the growth of the young talent we already have, then there was no need to fire Krivsky in the first place.

HokieRed
07-28-2008, 02:08 AM
I suggest the solution to this lies in the lack of value of Weathers, Affeldt, and Ross. I suspect GM's on the other side of potential trades for those guys consider the salary relief they'd be giving the Reds more than enough compensation. Of course they'll throw in some non-prospect "prospects" to make the deal cosmetic. In short, I suggest the problem is less in Walt than in the quality of talent available on this ballclub.

camisadelgolf
07-28-2008, 02:28 AM
Walt Jocketty moves since taking over as Reds GM (not including the 2008 amateur draft):

ACQUIRED IN TRADE
cash (for Justin Lehr)
cash (for Tom Shearn)
cash considerations (for Jim Brower)
Tom Collaro (for future considerations)
Aaron Herr (for future considerations)
PTBNL or cash (for Cody Strait)
PTBNL or cash (for Carlos Guevara)

MINOR LEAGUE FREE AGENT
Rob Mackowiak

CLAIMED OFF WAIVERS
Andy Phillips

DEPARTED IN TRADE
Justin Lehr (for cash)
Tom Shearn (for cash)
Jim Brower (for cash considerations)
future considerations (for Tom Collaro)
future considerations (for Aaron Herr)
Cody Strait (for PTBNL or cash)
Carlos Guevara (for PTBNL or cash)

DEPARTED THROUGH WAIVERS
Andy Phillips

RELEASED
Kevin Gunter
Scott Sauerbeck
Luis Soto
Juan Castro
Scott Hatteberg
Chandler Power
Tom Fiebig
James Morris
Andy Green

KoryMac5
07-28-2008, 02:31 AM
No offense, but don't you think it's kinda ridiculous to not even give the man one offseason to build his team?

No offense taken the point of the thread was to guage the opinions of fellow posters on how long the honeymoon will be.

I think it ends after the deadline passes. If the Reds do nothing and the losing continues the heat will get turned up and the honeymoon will be over. When Dunn walks people may start asking for a divorce.

edabbs44
07-28-2008, 08:50 AM
He never had one with me. He was a hired gun that has not had a single bullet. I still can't figure out why Wayne Krivsky was fired. The losing was going to stop, but I haven't seen it yet. Jocketty has not done anything as the GM of the Reds. If Krivsky had sat around for months and done nothing, he would be castrated by this board. All the talk about Krivsky not knowing how to build a bullpen has turned out to be BS just as I thought. The Reds have one of the better pens in the NL.

I hope that Jocketty gets it going soon.

It only took Krivsky over two years, tens of millions of dollars and untold man hours to build this stellar pen. It also cost the team its offense.

Bottom line is that the entire product is still manure. Wayne's backers have often not cared about the entire team/organization and only cared about specific moves/characteristics/players to "prove" Wayne's worth. Who cares that this team, largely constructed by Wayne, is embarrassing themselves on a nightly basis? Did you see that bullpen?

Give me a winning team and you can keep Phillips, Hamilton/Volquez and the bullpen.

redsmetz
07-28-2008, 09:18 AM
There's not a whole lot he can do prior to the trade deadline, as it seems to be a buyer's market. I think his honeymoon should last through the off-season. We should give him a chance to show what he can do, at least that long.

He should be given through the life of his contract, as should Baker. It's what I argued that Krivsky should have been afforded as well. Many of us have said that this organization needs some stability and long range movement, not the revolving door we've had for years now. Jocketty's here and he should be given the time his contract calls for. Clearly much work remains and to bring in yet another GM or manager will just keep us rolling back.

redsmetz
07-28-2008, 09:24 AM
It only took Krivsky over two years, tens of millions of dollars and untold man hours to build this stellar pen. It also cost the team its offense.

Bottom line is that the entire product is still manure. Wayne's backers have often not cared about the entire team/organization and only cared about specific moves/characteristics/players to "prove" Wayne's worth. Who cares that this team, largely constructed by Wayne, is embarrassing themselves on a nightly basis? Did you see that bullpen?

Give me a winning team and you can keep Phillips, Hamilton/Volquez and the bullpen.

I won't argue that the team is putrid right now, but I for one, argued that Krivsky was working on the entire organization and it was bolstered during his tenure. I'm not interested in turning this thread into another WK argument because what is done is done. But this organization needs to stop the darn revolving door and stabilize everything in its management to put championship baseball back in the park, top to bottom. Running Jocketty off (or Baker) isn't going to do it. But Jocketty has a heckuva a lot to work with. The trouble, it seems to me, is that the market has changed dramaticaly and old assumptions aren't working. But please don't accuse those of us who defended Krivsky of not seeing the entire picture. That was our main arguement.

camisadelgolf
07-28-2008, 09:28 AM
It only took Krivsky over two years, tens of millions of dollars and untold man hours to build this stellar pen. It also cost the team its offense.

Would you mind naming the offense the Reds gave up to get the third-best bullpen in the National League? This offense would be so much better with Austin Kearns (.215/.315/.318), Felipe Lopez (.235/.307/.313), and Chris Denorfia (.260/.339/.300)?

edabbs44
07-28-2008, 09:34 AM
Would you mind naming the offense the Reds gave up to get the third-best bullpen in the National League? This offense would be so much better with Austin Kearns (.215/.315/.318), Felipe Lopez (.235/.307/.313), and Chris Denorfia (.260/.339/.300)?

Do you think he could have improved the offense at all with the money/players used to obtain Cordero, Stanton, Mercker, Fogg, Cormier, Yan, Majewski, Bray, Affeldt, etc?

edabbs44
07-28-2008, 09:36 AM
I won't argue that the team is putrid right now, but I for one, argued that Krivsky was working on the entire organization and it was bolstered during his tenure. I'm not interested in turning this thread into another WK argument because what is done is done. But this organization needs to stop the darn revolving door and stabilize everything in its management to put championship baseball back in the park, top to bottom. Running Jocketty off (or Baker) isn't going to do it. But Jocketty has a heckuva a lot to work with. The trouble, it seems to me, is that the market has changed dramaticaly and old assumptions aren't working. But please don't accuse those of us who defended Krivsky of not seeing the entire picture. That was our main arguement.

I agree that the revolving door needed to stop. But giving people extra time will either move the team further ahead or drop the team even further back. I wasn't a fan of what he was doing and I think that his "successes" had more to do with luck than talent. Giving him more time, IMO, would have been a bad thing in this case.

MikeS21
07-28-2008, 09:45 AM
Hard to make moves when no one wants what you have unless you give it away. I think Walt is smart enough to realize that and will do his work prior to the start of the 2009 season.
:clap: No one is going to give up quality for what Jocketty is selling.

Everyone is pushing for deals, but IMO, any deal Walt makes, we're not going to like. Let's face it. He's not going to be able to dump guys like Fogg, Arroyo, Patterson, Valentin, Griffey, and Weathers and land all these superstar types that will help us reel off 30 straight wins and shoot to the top of the standings.

Why make a deal just for the sake of making a deal?

durl
07-28-2008, 09:57 AM
It only took Krivsky over two years, tens of millions of dollars and untold man hours to build this stellar pen. It also cost the team its offense.

I thought the only offense the Reds are missing this year over last is Josh Hamilton and Scott Hatteburg. Other position players are the same, aren't they?

M2
07-28-2008, 10:15 AM
To echo others, Walt Jocketty has yet to take over this franchise in terms of remaking the roster.

Perhaps he'll get a "honeymoon" when he finally does something.

Chip R
07-28-2008, 10:26 AM
I say his honeymoon is over. That's not to say he should be fired but that in the eyes of many fans, the Reds are no better off now than they were the day he took over. That's short term thinking but we live in an age of that.

His approval rating will rise and fall with the deals he makes and the results on the field but I'd say his honeymoon is over.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-28-2008, 10:30 AM
I'd be thrilled with swapping a pair of mediocre Low-A players ... just to know that WJ is still alive

WVRedsFan
07-28-2008, 10:57 AM
He should be given through the life of his contract, as should Baker. It's what I argued that Krivsky should have been afforded as well. Many of us have said that this organization needs some stability and long range movement, not the revolving door we've had for years now. Jocketty's here and he should be given the time his contract calls for. Clearly much work remains and to bring in yet another GM or manager will just keep us rolling back.

Absolutely. Give them time to do something. As everyone knows, I wasn't a Krivsky fan (duh!), and I felt like the path he was on was wrong, but to be truthful, he didn't really get a chance. I'm glad he didn't of course, but it's too soon to be talking replacement for either Baker or Jockkety.

Roy Tucker
07-28-2008, 11:12 AM
I think the honeymoon time period for any GM, manager, owner, etc. is very short in these hyper-critical web 2.0 days.

Jocketty starts being a Reds GM now. What he can accomplish with pretty mediocre trading chips will show a.) where he wants the club to go, and b.) his GM acumen of pulling off deals.

However, my expectations are low. The Reds have a lot of flotsam and jetsam that nobody wants. And anyone they have that other teams actually do want, the Reds aren't going to deal.

An Arroyo deal will be mostly to get out from under the $$$. A Harang trade may actually get some new talent. But I would imagine his recent DL stint would put the kibosh on that.

RedlegJake
07-28-2008, 11:19 AM
Hopefully Walt has enough influence with Jocketty to stay for a good while. I don't care about fans' honeymoon periods. For the fans, Walt's honeymoon ended the day after he took over. It was maybe two weeks after he started that we started seeing posts complaining that he wasn't making moves. The Reds need a stable ship for a while to have a chance to turn things around.

RFS62
07-28-2008, 11:53 AM
Walt is Castellini's man. Krivsky's days were numbered the day Jocketty left St. Louis.

"The losing stops now" was right up there with "Mission Accomplished" for accuracy and long term comedic value.

Walt is Bob's man. He's going to get as long as he wants the job.

edabbs44
07-28-2008, 01:06 PM
I thought the only offense the Reds are missing this year over last is Josh Hamilton and Scott Hatteburg. Other position players are the same, aren't they?

True, but that still would fall on the GM. A successful GM needs to be able to assess his team's needs before they become a painful reality and fix them. Wayne may have thought the offense was OK and the bullpen needed fixing. He neglected upgrading the offense and spend millions on his pen. He got the pen, now the offense sucks. Is that not his fault?

I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying...I'm not saying that he traded his entire offense for a good bullpen. I am saying that he upgraded the bullpen at the cost of the rest of the roster. Money spent on Cordero and others came from the bucket that would also pay for starting pitching and offense.

edabbs44
07-28-2008, 01:06 PM
Absolutely. Give them time to do something. As everyone knows, I wasn't a Krivsky fan (duh!), and I felt like the path he was on was wrong, but to be truthful, he didn't really get a chance. I'm glad he didn't of course, but it's too soon to be talking replacement for either Baker or Jockkety.

Exactly. I feel that every day with Wayne was an extra day we went in the wrong direction.

KronoRed
07-28-2008, 03:23 PM
Walt is Castellini's man. Krivsky's days were numbered the day Jocketty left St. Louis.


Actually I'd say Krvisky's days were OVER the day Walt hit town, when he was hired as "special adviser" is what I consider to be his first day as GM, titles and lip service are irrelevant.

M2
07-28-2008, 03:47 PM
Walt is Castellini's man. Krivsky's days were numbered the day Jocketty left St. Louis.

"The losing stops now" was right up there with "Mission Accomplished" for accuracy and long term comedic value.

Walt is Bob's man. He's going to get as long as he wants the job.

You're making way too much sense.

Spring~Fields
07-28-2008, 04:15 PM
It only took Krivsky over two years, tens of millions of dollars and untold man hours to build this stellar pen. It also cost the team its offense.

Bottom line is that the entire product is still manure.

Wayne's backers have often not cared about the entire team/organization and only cared about specific moves/characteristics/players to "prove" Wayne's worth.

Who cares that this team, largely constructed by Wayne, is embarrassing themselves on a nightly basis? Did you see that bullpen?

Give me a winning team and you can keep Phillips, Hamilton/Volquez and the bullpen.



*I am having a hard time seeing this Reds offense in comparison to it’s competitors most years, and I am having a bigger problem seeing how the offense mattered in order of importance when every year the Reds allowed more runs than they scored.

* In these seven seasons Cincinnati doesn’t show the amount of offense in runs scored that Texas does. Though both show some sort of offense, neither teams offense mattered because they lacked the requisite pitching to compete, as indicated by the games behind in most years.

* Most of the seasons here show that the Reds had less offense than their immediate competition in the Central division.

* Other than the 05 season where the Reds were 27 games behind, the best offensive showing for the Reds in runs scored was 2007 in the past seven seasons.

* Only in 06 did the Reds finish somewhat close, how much offense, pitching and defense could they have had prior to that year in comparison to their nearest competitors in the Central division?

* It appears that the immediate competition was the one that had the offense.

* Every season shown here, shows the Reds allowed more runs than they scored, that would indicate that they had a problem with pitching and defense, not offense, yet their immediate competitors were better than the Reds on offense and defense.

* The argument for offensive become dubious when we look at the alleged offense of Cincinnati and the offense of Texas when neither had pitching, the offense becomes null and void. If that is true, any general manager that pursues pitching and defense over an inadequate offense would be doing the right thing


The 2008 year for the Reds should have been a year of improvement with the additions of Votto and Bruce. Then there was the additions of Patterson and Bako to go along with old fan favorites Freel, Hopper and Hatteberg, eventually CF leadoff, SS batted second, Respect batter third, free swinger hit cleanup, while the guys that could actually get on base lost AB/PA to them. So I know what happened to the alleged offense in 08


2008 W L PCT GB RS RA
Cincinnati 50 56 .472 11.5 461 526
Texas 54 51 .514 10.5 585 616

2007
Chicago Cubs 85 77 .525 - 752 690
Milwaukee 83 79 .512 2 801 776
St. Louis 78 84 .481 7 725 829
Houston 73 89 .451 12 723 813

Cincinnati 72 90 .444 13 783 853
Texas 75 87 .463 19 816 844

2006
St. Louis 83 78 .516 - 781 762
Houston 82 80 .506 1.5 735 719

Cincinnati 80 82 .494 3.5 749 801
Texas 80 82 .494 13 835 784

2005
St. Louis 100 62 .617 - 805 634
Houston 89 73 .549 11 693 609
Milwaukee 81 81 .500 19 726 697
Chicago Cubs 79 83 .488 21 703 714

Cincinnati 73 89 .451 27 820 889
Texas 79 83 .488 16 865 858

2004
St. Louis 105 57 .644 - 855 659
Houston 92 70 .564 13 803 698
Chicago Cubs 89 73 .536 16 789 665

Cincinnati 76 86 .466 29 750 907
Texas 89 73 .539 3 860 794

2003
Chicago Cubs 88 74 .530 - 725 683
Houston 87 75 .534 1 805 677
St. Louis 85 77 .518 3 876 796
Pittsburgh 75 87 .446 13 753 801

Cincinnati 69 93 .421 19 694 885
Texas 71 91 .438 25 826 969

2002
St. Louis 97 65 .591 - 787 648
Houston 84 78 .515 13 749 695

Cincinnati 78 84 .476 19 709 774
Texas 72 90 .434 31 843 882

Where is this offense that the Reds were suppose to have had, and just how good could it have been? The Reds were a lot of games back 19, 19, 29, 27, then in 06 3.5, 07, 13 games behind the competition. I just don't see the offense before.

Spring~Fields
07-28-2008, 04:27 PM
Actually I'd say Krvisky's days were OVER the day Walt hit town, when he was hired as "special adviser" is what I consider to be his first day as GM, titles and lip service are irrelevant.

In addition to that Walt with many years experience, had just a few months vacation, from Oct of 07 to Jan of 08, two months, he should have been sharp as a tack with his GM skills that started in Jan 08 as you have indicated.

GAC
07-28-2008, 05:34 PM
This is what I don't understand. If Jocketty's big plan is to sit around and shepherd the growth of the young talent we already have, then there was no need to fire Krivsky in the first place.

I personally believe, with many contracts up in '08, and the opportunity to possibly make some deals, move some players, and really make some radical changes to this club (looking past '08 too) - you don't know in April what deals may present themselves or how the market is going to turn.... that Bob wanted Walt to be the man to make those future decisions and not Krivsky, if and when any deals did present themselves. I think Bob lost faith (and patience) with Wayne.

And the opportunity was there when his buddy got fired, parted ways, whatever, with the Cards.

But my prophecy abut fans giving Walt as short a "honeymoon" as Wayne - if not even shorter, because Jocketty's resume is far more impressive - is slowly coming true. ;)

And that's sad because Walt deserves the time to implement and make HIS changes, and leave his "finger prints" on this team.

And for people to be complaining because he hasn't made any moves yet, while only being on the job a little over 3 months, is kind of absurb.

They are more impetuous then this owner. ;)

Spring~Fields
07-28-2008, 06:00 PM
But my prophecy abut fans giving Walt as short a "honeymoon" as Wayne - if not even shorter, because Jocketty's resume is far more impressive - is slowly coming true. ;)



Yes, and one has to remember that the Bob Castellini himself, set the bench mark for expectations, so if the "honeymoon" is not long enough for Walt, then look to big Bob, for the explanation.

The chief executive officer has been on the job since 2006.

"Absolutely"

"The losing stops now"

"I am going to fire myself"

I just take big Bob at his word.

GAC
07-28-2008, 09:16 PM
It only took Krivsky over two years, tens of millions of dollars and untold man hours to build this stellar pen. It also cost the team its offense.

How? How did his efforts in building this bullpen cost us whatever offense we had? What "gems" did he sacrifice that somehow destroyed this offense? Give specifics.

Hamilton for Volquez? That was a sound trade for both teams. But that doesn't even involve the bullpen.


Wayne's backers have often not cared about the entire team/organization and only cared about specific moves/characteristics/players to "prove" Wayne's worth.

That's pure baloney.

And it's not the Krivsky backers who keep injecting him into these discussions. We've moved on. ;)

What I, and many so-called Wayne-backers (and I love that term) have stated is that this team's fortunes, especially long term, is dependent upon improving the overall "health" of this organization from top to bottom, and begins with emphasizing/rebuilding the farm system. The ML roster will be the last to see the results if the others are being improved upon. Call it "trickle up".

And looking at the state this organization has been in for the last decade, and the decay and mismanagement that had set in, it was an up-hill battle for any GM who underwent the task. But that was Wayne's objective.

And it's something that doesn't happen "overnight" (1-2 years).

And unless the owner is really going to open up the pocket books and play the market to acquire those needs/fill those holes, then the above is really the only alternative an organization like the Reds (and many others) have.

The problem is that it involves patience, and that is something neither the fans, and especially this owner, didn't want to exercise.

And that is what we've said. Nothing more, nothing less.

The owner decides he didn't like that "plan", so he brings in his friend in hopes he can replicate the "St Louis model" which is pretty much the polar opposite of the above, and relies more on playing the market and spending the money to find those "steals" or under appreciated (under valued) players.

And that's fine. You wouldn't get any argument from me.

Lets see what you can do Walt.

edabbs44
07-28-2008, 09:29 PM
How? How did his efforts in building this bullpen cost us whatever offense we had? What "gems" did he sacrifice that somehow destroyed this offense? Give specifics.

Hamilton for Volquez? That was a sound trade for both teams. But that doesn't even involve the bullpen.

Like I said earlier, he didn't subtract offense. He just didn't replace offense or add offense. So as he sat there and obsessed over the bullpen for 2+ years, he just neglected his everyday lineup. To the point where the team now has a pretty good bullpen and a trash lineup. Nice work.

I've said it for a while...the guy has an eye for talent. He just can't see the whole picture.


That's pure baloney.

And it's not the Krivsky backers who keep injecting him into these discussions. We've moved on. ;)

What I, and many so-called Wayne-backers (and I love that term) have stated is that this team's fortunes, especially long term, is dependent upon improving the overall "health" of this organization from top to bottom, and begins with emphasizing/rebuilding the farm system. The ML roster will be the last to see the results if the others are being improved upon. Call it "trickle up".

And looking at the state this organization has been in for the last decade, and the decay and mismanagement that had set in, it was an up-hill battle for any GM who underwent the task. But that was Wayne's objective.

And it's something that doesn't happen "overnight" (1-2 years).

And unless the owner is really going to open up the pocket books and play the market to acquire those needs/fill those holes, then the above is really the only alternative an organization like the Reds (and many others) have.

The problem is that it involves patience, and that is something neither the fans, and especially this owner, didn't want to exercise.

And that is what we've said. Nothing more, nothing less.

The owner decides he didn't like that "plan", so he brings in his friend in hopes he can replicate the "St Louis model" which is pretty much the polar opposite of the above, and relies more on playing the market and spending the money to find those "steals" or under appreciated (under valued) players.

And that's fine. You wouldn't get any argument from me.

Lets see what you can do Walt.

I doubt that Wayne's "plan" conflicted with Bob's. He knew what Bob wanted. It was up to him to execute. He wasn't trying to pull a fast one on Bob and really plan for the future while giving the appearance that he was trying to win now. They had the same plan, except Wayne went in half-assed. If the owner wants to win now, then go for it.

To get this job, Wayne had to tell him that he could put this team into position to win in the short-term. Then he failed. That's why he was fired.

Spring~Fields
07-29-2008, 12:24 AM
Like I said earlier, he didn't subtract offense. He just didn't replace offense or add offense. So as he sat there and obsessed over the bullpen for 2+ years, he just neglected his everyday lineup. To the point where the team now has a pretty good bullpen and a trash lineup. Nice work.



How was he suppose to improve the offense ?
How was he suppose to improve the starting pitching?
How was he suppose to improve the relief pitching?
How was he suppose to improve the minor league system?

Phillips
Hamilton
Hatteberg
Keppinger
Votto

What's wrong with those offensive improvements under the impoverished budget that Castellini puts out?

Now tell me about the pitching and defense, that you skipped over. :)

RS RA for the Reds and the competitors, I know what type of offense the Reds had and pitching and defense and I know what the Reds paid for it. ;)

Spring~Fields
07-29-2008, 12:31 AM
How? How did his efforts in building this bullpen cost us whatever offense we had? What "gems" did he sacrifice that somehow destroyed this offense? Give specifics.

Hamilton for Volquez? That was a sound trade for both teams. But that doesn't even involve the bullpen.



That's pure baloney.

And it's not the Krivsky backers who keep injecting him into these discussions. We've moved on. ;)

What I, and many so-called Wayne-backers (and I love that term) have stated is that this team's fortunes, especially long term, is dependent upon improving the overall "health" of this organization from top to bottom, and begins with emphasizing/rebuilding the farm system. The ML roster will be the last to see the results if the others are being improved upon. Call it "trickle up".

And looking at the state this organization has been in for the last decade, and the decay and mismanagement that had set in, it was an up-hill battle for any GM who underwent the task. But that was Wayne's objective.

And it's something that doesn't happen "overnight" (1-2 years).

And unless the owner is really going to open up the pocket books and play the market to acquire those needs/fill those holes, then the above is really the only alternative an organization like the Reds (and many others) have.

The problem is that it involves patience, and that is something neither the fans, and especially this owner, didn't want to exercise.

And that is what we've said. Nothing more, nothing less.

The owner decides he didn't like that "plan", so he brings in his friend in hopes he can replicate the "St Louis model" which is pretty much the polar opposite of the above, and relies more on playing the market and spending the money to find those "steals" or under appreciated (under valued) players.

And that's fine. You wouldn't get any argument from me.

Lets see what you can do Walt.

Good post.

I know that I am waiting to see Walt do St. Louis champagne maneuvers with a Cincinnati Beer budget.
Lindner, Reich, Strike, no, no :nono: big Bob ! :)



Chicago 2000-2008 St. Louis 2000-2008 Houston2000-2008 Cincinnati 2000-2008
$ 118,345,833 $ 99,624,449 $ 88,930,414 $ 74,117,695
$ 99,670,332 $ 90,286,823 $ 87,759,000 $ 68,904,980
$ 94,424,499 $ 88,891,371 $ 92,551,503 $ 60,909,519
$ 87,032,933 $ 92,106,833 $ 76,779,000 $ 61,892,583
$ 90,560,000 $ 83,228,333 $ 75,397,000 $ 46,615,250
$ 79,868,333 $ 83,786,666 $ 71,040,000 $ 59,355,667
$ 75,690,833 $ 74,660,875 $ 63,448,417 $ 45,050,390
$ 64,515,833 $ 78,333,333 $ 60,387,667 $ 48,784,000
$ 62,129,333 $ 63,093,023 $ 52,081,667 $ 48,784,000

WVRedsFan
07-29-2008, 12:36 AM
I know you guys are serious, but why does every thread go back to Krivsky? I find it kind of strange. That's all.

George Anderson
07-29-2008, 12:40 AM
One thing this organization needs is stablility. If BC jumps the gun and fires Walt after say next year then he will get a reputation of a very impatient owner and no GM worth a darn is going to want to work for a owner like that.

Spring~Fields
07-29-2008, 12:40 AM
I know you guys are serious, but why does every thread go back to Krivsky? I find it kind of strange. That's all.

I don't know why they did that either, interesting the selective filtering though.

Spring~Fields
07-29-2008, 12:41 AM
One thing this organization needs is stablility. If BC jumps the gun and fires Walt after say next year then he will get a reputation of a very impatient owner and no GM worth a darn is going to want to work for a owner like that.

Why would he do that ? :confused:

George Anderson
07-29-2008, 12:51 AM
Why would he do that ? :confused:

Lemme check with WK and get back with ya.

Spring~Fields
07-29-2008, 12:54 AM
Lemme check with WK and get back with ya.

I think that Castellini will step down before he fires Jocketty, Castellini has dug himself quite the hole, and painted himself into a corner, it will just take some time to manifest itself, but he has.

WVRedsFan
07-29-2008, 01:04 AM
I personally believe, with many contracts up in '08, and the opportunity to possibly make some deals, move some players, and really make some radical changes to this club (looking past '08 too) - you don't know in April what deals may present themselves or how the market is going to turn.... that Bob wanted Walt to be the man to make those future decisions and not Krivsky, if and when any deals did present themselves. I think Bob lost faith (and patience) with Wayne.

Totally agree. I think Castellini saw the writing on the wall--Dunn to free agancy, Griffey not signed, etc. and decided he wanted someone else to make the decision on who replaced them. You have to believe that Castellini was less than enthused by Gonzo at short and Patterson in CF. He was appalled at Stanton and Fogg and he lost faith and put an end to it. He wanted someone who could evaluate veteran players better across the board, and right or not, he thought there were too many mistakes made to continue the relationship.

Knowing Jocketty's past performance, my guess is he has dangled Dunn, Arroyo, Griffey, Fogg, and Weathers out there and found that all that can be had is prospects. He's not going to do that because he knows there are no outfielders or relief pitchers out there to make the team respectable for the rest of the season. Given that, he's in full winter mode. You cannot give away a Dunn or even an Arroyo or a Griffey with nothing back. The rotation is already suffering with Volquez's difficulties and Cueto's rookie mistakes. Taking away Arroyo and leaving us a rotation of Volquez, Cueto, Fogg, Bailey, and possibly Belisle would not be acceptable to anyone.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2008, 01:31 AM
I think that Castellini will step down before he fires Jocketty, Castellini has dug himself quite the hole, and painted himself into a corner, it will just take some time to manifest itself, but he has.

Seriously?

I mean -- I've followed sports for a long time and I don't think I can ever recall an owner divesting himself of the team or stepping down as owner simply because the product on the field is no good.

Spring~Fields
07-29-2008, 02:05 AM
I personally believe, with many contracts up in '08, and the opportunity to possibly make some deals, move some players, and really make some radical changes to this club (looking past '08 too) - you don't know in April what deals may present themselves or how the market is going to turn.... that Bob wanted Walt to be the man to make those future decisions and not Krivsky,



Rough Estimate
Adam Dunn 13,000,000
Ken Griffey Jr. 8,282,695
David Weathers 3,300,000
Corey Patterson 3,000,000
Jeremy Affeldt 3,000,000
David Ross 2,525,000
Josh Fogg 1,500,000
Javier Valentin 1,350,000
Paul Bako 750,000
Mike Lincoln 550,000


Mike Stanton 3,000,000
Scott Hatteberg 1,850,000
Matt Belisle 1,250,000
Juan Castro 975,000
Todd Coffey 907,500
Kent Mercker 600,000
Very Rough Estimate $45,840,195
Hairston Jr.

Jocketty could have that amount to work with even if the owners do not increase the payroll, and that amount to the best of my knowledge is more than any general manager of the Reds has had free to work with.

Possibly 11 players to replace with
$45,840195 (very rough estimate) /11 $4,167,290 average per

Arguably, he also has holes in the bullpen, starting pitching, RF, CF, LF, 3B, C, SS, 1B and the bench to upgrade if he feels they need it to compete with the main competitors in the Central.

Spring~Fields
07-29-2008, 02:09 AM
Seriously?

I mean -- I've followed sports for a long time and I don't think I can ever recall an owner divesting himself of the team or stepping down as owner simply because the product on the field is no good.

The chief executive officer does not have to divest of his holdings within an organization to step down.

I don't recall mentioning "simply because the product on the field is no good" I looked and I just don't see that anywhere on here. Where did you get that, seriously ?

In all your years of following sports how many have you heard make the comments that Castellini has?

What do I know, the man said he would fire himself, but then again he has stated many other things too that has not come true. Time will tell. ;)


"If we don't get this worked out, I'm liable to fire myself someday," Castellini said.

The Baumer
07-29-2008, 02:38 AM
In all your years of following sports how many have you heard make the comments that Castellini has?

What do I know, the man said he would fire himself, but then again he has stated many other things too that has not come true. Time will tell. ;)

Unlike the Joker, Castellini is not a man of his word.

remdog
07-29-2008, 02:47 AM
The honeymoon ended (for Walt, at least) when Jocketty got the bride to the honeymoon suite, got her undressed and realized that she was a he.

This is not a good team that he inherited. The chips that he has to trade are buffalo chips and the other GM's out there know they've got him over a barrel so they're not exactly showering him with temptation.

Walt's biggest problem may very well be Castellini, who says he wants to win now and is coming off as a Steinbrenner wanta' be. With that kind of aggrivation the fans would be peaches and cream.

Rem

Spring~Fields
07-29-2008, 02:51 AM
Unlike the Joker, Castellini is not a man of his word.

He is under a lot of pressure and stress, we will have to take his spin doctoring and marketing puffery with a grain of salt, and just pay attention to the results that his organization has achieved since 2006 and continues to achieve in the future. :lol:

Spring~Fields
07-29-2008, 02:53 AM
The honeymoon ended (for Walt, at least) when Jocketty got the bride to the honeymoon suite, got her undressed and realized that she was a he.

This is not a good team that he inherited. The chips that he has to trade are buffalo chips and the other GM's out there know they've got him over a barrel so they're not exactly showering him with temptation.

Walt's biggest problem may very well be Castellini, who says he wants to win now and is coming off as a Steinbrenner wanta' be. With that kind of aggrivation the fans would be peaches and cream.

Rem

Solid, well said.

edabbs44
07-29-2008, 08:49 AM
How was he suppose to improve the offense ?
How was he suppose to improve the starting pitching?
How was he suppose to improve the relief pitching?
How was he suppose to improve the minor league system?

I don't get it...he wasn't supposed to improve those? He was supposed to improve the team. Just like any other GM.


Phillips
Hamilton
Hatteberg
Keppinger
Votto

What's wrong with those offensive improvements under the impoverished budget that Castellini puts out?

Let me know how those guys improved the offense. Don't give me their stats...give me evidence of the offense improving with those additions. With those names being added to guys like Encarnacion, Dunn and Griffey, this offense should have been rockin and rollin.

And Krivsky had money to spend during his tenure. He just didn't spend it wisely. I wouldn't call it an "impoverished budget" at all. Anytime you spend the most money ever on a FA reliever, your budget is anything but impoverished.


Now tell me about the pitching and defense, that you skipped over. :)

RS RA for the Reds and the competitors, I know what type of offense the Reds had and pitching and defense and I know what the Reds paid for it. ;)

:confused:

REDREAD
07-29-2008, 12:02 PM
Whenever someone takes over a position at the top whether it be a coach or GM they are usually given a grace period. How long will this grace period be for Walt?

My guess is that it is over after the trade deadline.

I don't think Walt was ever given a honeymoon, at least by half the board :lol:

Personally, I give him until opening day 2009 to show some progress.

I'm not going to base my opinion of him based on whether he decides to trade Weathers/Ross or some other junk at the deadline. That's going to be inconsequential either way.

Let's see what he does in the offseason, when he has a chance to remake the club.

REDREAD
07-29-2008, 12:08 PM
Walt obviously deserves a couple years to build his team but I've gotta say, I'm going to be pretty ticked if he doesn't make any moves before the deadline. Affeldt, Weathers, and Ross are all rumored to be drawing interested from teams and should be dealt IMO. Losing those three doesn't hurt the team.

Actually, it does hurt the team. If Weathers and Affedlt are dealt for prospects, the team needs two bodies to pitch about 80 innings (or whatever)out of the pen for the rest of the year. Coffey and Maj can absorb some of those innings (not desirable, but possible).. Who is going to absorb the rest?

I'm all for trading a reliever for a decent prospect, but not for junk. I really doubt that Weathers and Affeldt are worth a decent prospect though. If the Reds were contending, would you be happy if we dealt Thompson or Roinoake for a guy identical to Weathers? Of course you wouldn't.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2008, 12:09 PM
As I've mentioned before, if Jeff Conine can net Sean Henry, then Affeldt and Weathers could net something decent.

OnBaseMachine
07-29-2008, 12:14 PM
Actually, it does hurt the team. If Weathers and Affedlt are dealt for prospects, the team needs two bodies to pitch about 80 innings (or whatever)out of the pen for the rest of the year. Coffey and Maj can absorb some of those innings (not desirable, but possible).. Who is going to absorb the rest?

I'm all for trading a reliever for a decent prospect, but not for junk. I really doubt that Weathers and Affeldt are worth a decent prospect though. If the Reds were contending, would you be happy if we dealt Thompson or Roinoake for a guy identical to Weathers? Of course you wouldn't.

Who said anything about landing a big prospect in return? Just trade Weathers for a prospect and callup Roenicke to replace him. Like Buckeye mentioned, Jeff Conine netted Sean Henry. Calvin Medlock netted Shaun Cumberland as a throw in to the Cantu deal. Robert Manuel was acquired for Dave Williams. Affeledt and Weathers won't bring a huge return but they could definitely bring back a decent prospect.

REDREAD
07-29-2008, 12:21 PM
Who said anything about landing a big prospect in return? Just trade Weathers for a prospect and callup Roenicke to replace him. Like Buckeye mentioned, Jeff Conine netted Sean Henry. Calvin Medlock netted Shaun Cumberland as a throw in to the Cantu deal. Robert Manuel was acquired for Dave Williams. Affeledt and Weathers won't bring a huge return but they could definitely bring back a decent prospect.

How does moving Weathers for a future Belisle help the team though? Maybe it saves Bob a little cash, but so what?

If Roenicke is ready now, just demote Maj or Coffey and call him up.. It's not as if there's no room on the roster for a talented rookie.

I remember people praising the prospects we got back for Willaimson, Tucker, and Todd Walker.. It's the nature of fans to always be optimistic about prospects they recieved, but the reality is that we didn't get squat for any of these players. Now I agree that Weathers has less value than the players I listed above, but dumping him just for the sake of dumping him just teaches clubs that you can lowball Walt for his talent at the deadline.

We really don't want to get a reputation like Pittsburg. It's a given that they will always dump their more expensive players at the deadline for the best offer, even if the best offer isn't worth doing.

OnBaseMachine
07-29-2008, 12:23 PM
How does moving Weathers for a future Belisle help the team though? Maybe it saves Bob a little cash, but so what?


Why do you keep saying that? Why is every prospect a future Belisle in your eyes?

REDREAD
07-29-2008, 05:01 PM
Why do you keep saying that? Why is every prospect a future Belisle in your eyes?

I'm just saying that unless you get a guy that projects to be useful for Weathers, we might as well keep Weathers.

For example, Sullivan for Hummel was a dumb trade. Hummel had a zero chance of being even adequate as a bench player.

I'd be ok with trading Weathers for an toolsy athletic guy that may or may not ever hit. That's an ok risk. But I'm opposed to trading him for junk. Same goes for Fogg too.

If Walt can get something decent for Weathers, by all means trade him. My point though is that some folks are going to be mad if Weathers and Affedlt aren't traded. IMO, if only junk is offered, Walt needs to hold them.

camisadelgolf
07-29-2008, 05:11 PM
And I hate to bring this up again, but there's always the possibility that the Reds could get draft pick compensation if they hold on to Weathers and offer him arbitration.

Spring~Fields
07-29-2008, 05:16 PM
Personally, I give him until opening day 2009 to show some progress.



Define "progress", :)

Don't forget the competition is out there already ahead of the Reds in the results standings, with greater player resources, and financial resources, working to improve their own situations. Does this "progress" show significant or substantive improvements toward defeating the competition in the Central ? If not then where is the "progress" _________ ? ;) What year ________?

Spring~Fields
07-29-2008, 05:24 PM
I don't get it...he wasn't supposed to improve those? He was supposed to improve the team. Just like any other GM.

When the great Jim Bowden,(choke) Kaulman, Dan O'Brien couldn't and Jocketty hasn't to date, tell me how ? Especially with the competition out bidding them in player resources by 25-30 million ? :)


And Krivsky had money to spend during his tenure. He just didn't spend it wisely. I wouldn't call it an "impoverished budget" at all. Anytime you spend the most money ever on a FA reliever, your budget is anything but impoverished.
Compared to what team, Chicago ? St. Louis ? Houston ?

The competition has outbid Cincinnati and their investors since 2000 for quality player personnel and as you have seen, it isn't getting any better.

Show me the numbers :) $$$$$$$$$$$$$

edabbs I just think that with the long losing record for the various reasons repeated annually on the board and in the media since 2000 or 2001 that you are looking at the subordinates when you should be looking very hard at the superiors, too many people have been turned over to blame anyone but the top, the owners/investors with their President and Chief Executive Officers, former and present.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bob Castellini’s three season record
50 57 .467
72 90 .444
80 82 .494
202 229 .469 win pct .531 loss pct

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bob Castellini’s subordinates -
Three general managers O’Brien, Krivsky, Jocketty
Three managers Narron, Mackanin, Baker
Front office people ?
Field people ?
Scouting people ?

Fill in the blank questions
1.) Moves that his subordinates made after the Krivsky firing to improve the team, even though they were losing ____________ ?
Hint !!
50 57 .467

2.) The subordinates under President and Chief Executive Officer Bob Castellini could not package one pitcher with one position player/batter with one minor league prospect to obtain just one someone to meet one of their needs _________? Why Not ______?

3. What did President and Chief Executive Officer Bob Castellini do to get good results during the three seasons that he has been in control ________ ?

President and Chief Executive Officer, Bob Castellini’s three season record
50 57 .467
72 90 .444
80 82 .494
202 229 .469 win pct .531 loss pct
Hint !! The results indicate very little if anything.

4.) What can we realistically expect from President and Chief Executive Officer Bob Castellini in the future based upon his, history, past performance, statistical record ______?

Hint !!!
50 57 .467
72 90 .444
80 82 .494
202 229 .469 win pct .531 loss pct Hint !! The results indicate very little if anything.

5. ) The stats for the team, the stats for the players are representative of the stats for Bob Castellini, President and Chief Executive Officer. Every year since the days of Bowden we have read basically the same remarks, comments, and excuses about time, the market, about giving x, y or z more time etc. The results speak for that response. True or False, circle just one.

Hint !!!
50 57 .467
72 90 .444
80 82 .494
202 229 .469 win pct .531 loss pct
Hint !! The results indicate very little if anything.

6. ) The direct and immediate competition in the Central division has outbid the Cincinnati Reds for player resources since the year 2000, the results indicate that the competition has defeated the Cincinnati Reds efforts every season. How can any subordinate under the partners of Castellini, Lindner, Reich, and Strike do any better than they have against the competition when under funded by 25-30 million dollars _______?

Hint !!!
50 57 .467
72 90 .444
80 82 .494
202 229 .469 win pct .531 loss pct
Hint !! The results indicate very little if anything.


the partners of Castellini, Lindner, Reich, and Strike

Fearless predictions, the competition in the Central division will continue to blow Cincinnati out of the water and into the bottom feeders for the next five years running. Just like they have for the past 8


Improving the team, does not guarantee a winning team, because of the competition.

Reds1
07-29-2008, 06:32 PM
He hasn't done anything yet. I stlil think WK got a bad deal. He did a fantastic job IMO with what he had to deal with. Phillip, Hamilton, Burton, Cueto. These are the guys creating the buzz for the Reds.

GAC
07-29-2008, 07:25 PM
I know you guys are serious, but why does every thread go back to Krivsky? I find it kind of strange. That's all.

I said the same thing; but we were not the ones who brought Krivsky into the conversion WV. ;)


Totally agree. I think Castellini saw the writing on the wall--Dunn to free agancy, Griffey not signed, etc. and decided he wanted someone else to make the decision on who replaced them. You have to believe that Castellini was less than enthused by Gonzo at short and Patterson in CF. He was appalled at Stanton and Fogg and he lost faith and put an end to it.

I don't think Bob was (is) losing any sleep over Jr not being signed. Why would he be fretting over a guy with declining skills/performance?

We have no idea what Cast's feeling were concerning a Gonzo at SS or the the Patterson signing. We needed a SS, he couldn't have been too thrilled with what we had (Lopez, wo was due up for arb). One also has to look at what was available in the market. How many sound SS's were available to fill that need?

The same with Patterson and Fogg. We all know why these two were brought in here, and it wasn't to be everyday starters but "contingency" backups.

Lets forget about Harang and Arroyo's performance in '08. Going into the season, they were counted upon to be "anchors". You then are going into the season with two very promising young arms in Volquez and Cueto who could prove to be future answers in this rotation. But there is still uncertainty due to their inexperience/immaturity. They also, as well as many fans, had optimism that Belisle would reach that next level. Everyone said he has the tools.

So what do you do? They go out and find a couple arms as backups in Affeldt and Fogg. Fogg appeared in 30 games in '07, went 10-9 with a 4.94 ERA, and is costing us $400,000 in '08. Affeldt has performed admirable for us this season for the 3 mil we're paying him.

Now why should Bob be appalled at that?

The same with Patterson. I thought it was absurd to pay Patterson 3 mil. I total blunder/waste on Wayne's part and I said that then. But the only reason he was on the OD roster was because he had a blistering ST and Bruce didn't. Bruce was still an unproven, inexperienced prospect who also suffered a minor injury in ST. The decision was not to rush Bruce and take the pressure off of him. Something even Bruce admitted and concurred with.

If Bob Castellini wanted better quality then maybe he should put his money where his mouth is?

To succeed and maintain any level of competiveness in MLB today you either follow the "mold" of teams like an As, Twins, Marlins, and build the infrastructure (scouting, development, farms). OR.... you spend!

Raising the yearly payroll 10-12 mil year is peanuts when you look at what our specific needs are.

Bob says he is a "baseball guy" who comes out of a sound organization (St Louis). Fine. Then if he didn't want Patterson in CF, or a Belisle or Fogg pitching, then he has to know (from previous experiences) what it will cost to acquire thos quality player(s), like what was done in St Louis with Rolens, Edmonds, McGwire, and numerous others.

Am I trying to exonerate Krivsky? Heck no! But any GM is limited in what he can do by the budget set by the owners.


Knowing Jocketty's past performance, my guess is he has dangled Dunn, Arroyo, Griffey, Fogg, and Weathers out there and found that all that can be had is prospects. He's not going to do that because he knows there are no outfielders or relief pitchers out there to make the team respectable for the rest of the season.

And I'm fine with that. Can't force the issue or make rash/bad mistakes all for the sake of making a deal/trade.

But he is in the same situation that Wayne was in. The difference is Wayne would probably make some trades, take risks/chances, while Walt has decided to stand pat. And I'm not saying that in defense of Wayne either because some times his moves paid off, and sometimes they didn't.

Wayne took risks. And in the past so has Walt. But at present Walt hasn't followed that path.


Given that, he's in full winter mode.

Again, no problem.


The rotation is already suffering with Volquez's difficulties and Cueto's rookie mistakes.

Situations any team would "grit their teeth" and show patience on. Call it growing pains or whatever. You can't expect one kid, like a Cuteo, who spent the majority of last season in AA to not show some struggles in his first year at the ML level. It's natural.


Taking away Arroyo and leaving us a rotation of Volquez, Cueto, Fogg, Bailey, and possibly Belisle would not be acceptable to anyone.

While I'm glad Arroyo has pitched well as of late I'd still trade him if the deal was good for the Reds. Arroyo has shown he is a hot n cold pitcher. He could turn around and lose his next 5 games with an ERA of 7. That is who he is.

Sell high if the deal is right. It's not about '08, it's about next year and thereafter IMO.

Use what trading chips you have wisely and to your advantage. If you can take advantage of the other guy, capitalize on the situation, then go for it. That is what Walt is known for.

It's obvious they are going to stand pat for the remainder of '08. So IMO that means they are going to let a lot of players/payroll walk at season's end. So now Walt and Bob need to sit down and decide what those needs are if Bob wants to Win Now, and if it even requires spending even more to acquire those players, then Bob again needs to step up to the plate.

Or else his words are nothing but empty words to me. ;)

Reds1
07-29-2008, 07:53 PM
I said the same thing; but we were not the ones who brought Krivsky into the conversion WV. ;)

OK. Hoenymoon perioid for me last 1 year. He got a decent team and has money. If we are out of it next year at the same time the honeymoon is over. No mention of a past GM. :D

Spring~Fields
07-29-2008, 08:41 PM
I don't get it...he wasn't supposed to improve those? He was supposed to improve the team. Just like any other GM.



Bob says that his team has talent and implies that it should be doing better than it is.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs...cincinnati.com

Reds CEO Bob Castellini made a side trip to Houston and met with the front office staff and Dusty Baker.

"It's discouraging and frustrating," he said. "We've got talent on this team and we don't want anyone to lose their confidence. We'll take it one day at a time."

Here's what he said:

On Bronson Arroyo and a salary dump: "I'd rather Bronson Arroyo be here next year than me. He's been one of our shining stars lately."

On Adam Dunn: "How can you not be a supporter of his power. He's probably had the best year he's ever had in Major League Baseball."

Castellini, however, would not answer the direct question about whether there was a chance that Dunn would be back.

On deals being discussed with Walt Jocketty: "Walt can talk to me forever and not say a thing."

On why he's here: "I was in Colorado. It was a good opportunity to swing by, give everybody moral support. This is the time of year you can lose confidence. That shouldn't happen with a team of this caliber.

__________________________________________________ ____

If Walt Jocketty can’t win in Cincinnati then who could ?

If Walt fails to bring a real winner to Cincinnati it won’t be Walt Jocketty’s fault it will be his superiors, just like it has been for the general managers throughout the decade of 2000.

A team of this "with a team of this caliber" gee Bob, I am confused, why was it you fired so many before then ?

klw
07-29-2008, 08:43 PM
I don't think Walt gets a honeymoon with the fans. His experience and ties to the owner mean he does not get the grace period given to an "outsider" or new to the position guy. That and a sense of enough already.

Ltlabner
07-30-2008, 08:55 AM
You have to believe that Castellini was less than enthused by Gonzo at short and Patterson in CF. He was appalled at Stanton and Fogg and he lost faith and put an end to it. He wanted someone who could evaluate veteran players better across the board, and right or not, he thought there were too many mistakes made to continue the relationship.

Yet he doesn't mind 20% of the teams PA's going to guys who are signifigantly below replacement level.

He doesn't mind a manager who insists on giving away 400+ PA's to the likes of Corey Patterson and Paul Bako, dispite having clear and convining evidence that they are not only worthless, but are activley hurting the team.

He doesn't mind the same manager whispering in the ears of the young and tallented players "be agressive" at the plate thus converting Votto, Bruce, BPhil into swing-a-matics.

He doesn't mind a manager who has consistantly suppressed offensive production by batting the most productive players lower in the lineup.

Sorry WVRedsFan. I don't buy the BCast was "appalled" by ANY of those moves. He can't be appalled by some and not notice the others. He simply has displayed a complete lack of baseball acumen, IMO. Big name manager, win now, doing things "the right" way. Those are all code words for "I have no idea how a winning team works".

What BCast was appalled by was the lack of results and the shame of not wining despite his big claims and the money spent. He was especially appalled that Krivski was the GM when his guy Walt was waiting in the wings.

I agree with the long departed Pedro that BCast may be more of a problem to this team than we realize.

edabbs44
07-30-2008, 09:12 AM
Yet he doesn't mind 20% of the teams PA's going to guys who are signifigantly below replacement level.

He doesn't mind a manager who insists on giving away 400+ PA's to the likes of Corey Patterson and Paul Bako, dispite having clear and convining evidence that they are not only worthless, but are activley hurting the team.

He doesn't mind the same manager whispering in the ears of the young and tallented players "be agressive" at the plate thus converting Votto, Bruce, BPhil into swing-a-matics.

He doesn't mind a manager who has consistantly suppressed offensive production by batting the most productive players lower in the lineup.

Sorry WVRedsFan. I don't buy the BCast was "appalled" by ANY of those moves. He can't be appalled by some and not notice the others. He simply has displayed a complete lack of baseball acumen, IMO. Big name manager, win now, doing things "the right" way. Those are all code words for "I have no idea how a winning team works".

What BCast was appalled by was the lack of results and the shame of not wining despite his big claims and the money spent. He was especially appalled that Krivski was the GM when his guy Walt was waiting in the wings.

I agree with the long departed Pedro that BCast may be more of a problem to this team than we realize.

How come the GM (both Walt and Wayne) has no spot in this discussion? While I agree that it is apparent to pretty much everyone except those that matter that Dusty is doing a poor job of managing, I think the GMs should be getting more blame than Castellini should.

Ltlabner
07-30-2008, 09:14 AM
How come the GM (both Walt and Wayne) has no spot in this discussion? While I agree that it is apparent to pretty much everyone except those that matter that Dusty is doing a poor job of managing, I think the GMs should be getting more blame than Castellini should.

Because WVRedsFans comment, to which I was responding, was about the owner.

GAC
07-30-2008, 10:18 PM
How come the GM (both Walt and Wayne) has no spot in this discussion? While I agree that it is apparent to pretty much everyone except those that matter that Dusty is doing a poor job of managing, I think the GMs should be getting more blame than Castellini should.

With me, it's not about who should get the greater percentage of the blame. There is plenty to go around.

What I am waiting to see is what direction Jocketty is going to take, which will be made plain by any moves made prior to going into next year.

But doesn't the owner/ownership group "steer" that GM by the budget they set? And doesn't that budget also define the parameters by which any moves can (or will) be made?

A GM, going into a season, has to weigh what is left over in that set budget after he takes into consideration those contract commitments already on the books, raises due, arb cases, and other peripherals, BEFORE he can begin to fill whatever needs he has.

Because what is left over, as well as whatever those needs are, dictates what/how it CAN be spent.

If all he has left over is 12-15 mil; but needs to fill numerous critical spots, such as another solid pitcher, OFer, and catcher, then HOW does he divide it up and allot it when all are big priorities?

Now maybe some may think that is a lot of money, but in MLB it's not IMO. You can eat a big part of that money up on just on quality starting pitcher or OFer.

So a GM either has to find a way to "dump" salary to give him either more leeway...or... that owner needs to give him more to spend IF he wants to WIN NOW.

If you look at other organizations with similar payrolls with the Reds, and who have been consistently performing/winning, you'd find that a vast majority of them have one thing in common that contributes to that winning... they have sound farm systems to draw on. They built those systems and have maintained them.

And from what I am seeing with Bob C, who seems to be an impatient owner, that is not the direction he wants to emphasize because it doesn't turn an organization over fast enough to suit his philosophy.

And that is fine. It's his team. Then he needs to take the shackles of his GM Jocketty, and give him the financial resources to accomplish that objective.

That's what I am waiting to see. Will it happen?

If not, then we're going to see Jocketty going out and possibly doing the same as Krivsky and trying to find the best OFer he can for 3 mil or pitcher for 4-5 mil. He's going to be browsing through the trash trying to find salvagable players to fit within that budget.

Jocketty didn't work under those financial circumstances while at St Louis.

Spring~Fields
07-31-2008, 07:31 PM
How come the GM (both Walt and Wayne) has no spot in this discussion? While I agree that it is apparent to pretty much everyone except those that matter that Dusty is doing a poor job of managing, I think the GMs should be getting more blame than Castellini should.


Did you notice that you have just witnessed a form of the trade revisited, an outfielder traded for pitching?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/...yNSY4hW16FCLcF
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8078

An outfielder, right fielder, Ken Griffey Jr. was just traded for pitching and a minor league second baseman

The Reds just traded an outfielder to pay for pitching, to pay for the pitching next year in the form of Harang, Arroyo and Cordero.

Kaulman - Jose Guillen for pitching
O’Brien - Sean Casey for pitching
Krivsky - Pena for pitching
Krivsky - Kearns, Lopez for pitching
Jocketty - Griffey for pitching, and to pay for next years increase in cost for the pitching.

Spring~Fields
07-31-2008, 07:36 PM
Did you notice that you have just witnessed a form of the trade revisited, an outfielder traded for pitching?

An outfielder, right fielder, Ken Griffey Jr. was just traded for pitching and a minor league second baseman.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7805/career;_ylt=AtptIdckEjxTu_yNSY4hW16FCLcF
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8078

The Reds just traded an outfielder to pay for pitching, to pay for the pitching next year in the form of Harang, Arroyo and Cordero.

Kaulman - Jose Guillen for pitching
O’Brien - Sean Casey for pitching
Krivsky - Pena for pitching
Krivsky - Kearns, Lopez for pitching
Jocketty - Griffey for pitching, and to pay for next years increase in cost for the pitching.


Posted by GAC,
A GM, going into a season, has to weigh what is left over in that set budget after he takes into consideration those contract commitments already on the books, raises due, arb cases, and other peripherals, BEFORE he can begin to fill whatever needs he has.

Because what is left over, as well as whatever those needs are, dictates what/how it CAN be spent.
If all he has left over is 12-15 mil; but needs to fill numerous critical spots, such as another solid pitcher, OFer, and catcher, then HOW does he divide it up and allot it when all are big priorities?

Now maybe some may think that is a lot of money, but in MLB it's not IMO. You can eat a big part of that money up on just on quality starting pitcher or OFer.

So a GM either has to find a way to "dump" salary to give him either more leeway...or... that owner needs to give him more to spend IF he wants to WIN NOW.

If you look at other organizations with similar payrolls with the Reds, and who have been consistently performing/winning, you'd find that a vast majority of them have one thing in common that contributes to that winning... they have sound farm systems to draw on. They built those systems and have maintained them.

Spring~Fields
07-31-2008, 08:53 PM
:confused:

Sound familiar ?
“Trading Griffey would give the Reds more payroll flexibility. Bowden said the proposed Griffey-for-Phil Nevin trade with San Diego, which Nevin nixed with his no-trade clause, would have saved the Reds $55 million over the remaining six years of Griffey's contract.
"That would buy a lot of pitching," Bowden said.”
http://reds.enquirer.com/2002/12/14/wwwred1b14.html


“During the course of the trade deadline program, Bowden spoke positively about the Reds' flurry of trades for pitching and admitted that the Reds and Yankees discussed a trade that would have sent Ken Griffey Jr. to New York.”
http://reds.enquirer.com/2003/08/01/bowden.html


“It's a sad day," former baseball commissioner Fay Vincent said Thursday, upon learning of the Reds' latest trades - fan favorite Aaron Boone and dependable relief pitcher Gabe White to the big-market New York Yankees for pitching prospects.
"It shows what a very serious problem there is in baseball. What it says is that the hailing of the labor agreement of last (summer) as a victory for the owners was really overstated."
He said the Reds' only choice was to dismantle the team and rebuild for next year, or lose money”
http://reds.enquirer.com/2003/08/01/badreds01.html


"We're going in a direction where we're trying to be fiscally responsible and we're trying to win," Kullman said. "We're doing the best we can within the perimeter of where we are as an organization."

"I disagree," Kullman said. "Am I saying these are great moves to try and help us win tonight's game? No."

But he said money was not the sole reason behind any deal.

"We didn't have any mandate to shop any particular players, particular contracts," Kullman said. "We did not have any instructions to move X amount of money."
http://reds.enquirer.com/2003/08/01/trades-0801.html



Sound familiar ?

Allen said he was not ordered to dump payroll. He said his goal was to acquire pitching and improve the team's prospects next season.
"This is not a payroll dump," Allen said. "What we've done is certainly improve the team for the upcoming season. Obviously, anybody could see that one of our growing weaknesses was starting pitching and pitching depth."

http://reds.enquirer.com/2003/08/01/badreds01.html





Jocketty: There won't be a salary dump
Posted by JohnFay at 7/23/2008 8:25 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

I just talked to Walt Jocketty about what Bronson Arroyo said after the game. Jocketty, as expected, would not say whether teams are asking about Arroyo. But he would say that trimming salary will not be reason behind any trade.

"I have not been instructed to dump salary," Jocketty said. "What we'll do is try to improve the club for this year and next."
That is not to say contract aren't a factor.

"Money is always a factor because you've got budget's to deal with," Jocketty said. "But when we sit down and project, a lot of things are taken into consideration."
Arroyo's comments were directed to CEO Bob Castillini. Castellini is hands-on owner, but he's not in on preliminary trade talks.

"i keep him up to date," Jocketty said. "If we have a deal, i'd take to him. That hasn't happened yet."

Trade activity is picking up.

"That's usually the case as deadline nears," Jocketty said.

I agree with the spirit of what Arroyo said. If the Reds got rid of him and got little in return, it would send a bad signal to the fans. But trading a high-priced veteran for a younger, cheaper player can make sense. If Arroyo could be part of deal that landed a young catcher or shortstop, the Reds would have to consider it

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a6a638b48-9065-4e46-97a0-10413ffd5b02&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Jpup
08-01-2008, 03:10 AM
Where is Kullman these days?

Spring~Fields
08-01-2008, 04:51 PM
Where is Kullman these days?

I tried a search for him and could not find him.

Spring~Fields
08-03-2008, 12:13 PM
How come the GM (both Walt and Wayne) has no spot in this discussion? While I agree that it is apparent to pretty much everyone except those that matter that Dusty is doing a poor job of managing, I think the GMs should be getting more blame than Castellini should.

I can't help but to continue to believe that you are placing the blame on the wrong management level of the Cincinnati Reds.

Year DER MLB rank
2008 .681 29th
2007 .682 26th
2006 .691 21st
2005 .683 28th
2004 .696 20th
2003 .698 21st
2002 .700 19th
2001 .695 23rd
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080803/SPT04/808030433/1071


These eight seasons cover a period of several general managers, several managers, several coaches and several different players and doesn’t say a lot to dissuade me from continuing to blame the investor/owners along with the chief executive officers of the Cincinnati Reds during this period. It appears to me that the Reds could not afford their fodder and filler rosters of under funded teams, if they indeed wanted to field a winning product.