PDA

View Full Version : Why couldn't Krivsky get Dunn traded and why aren't clubs interested in him now?



Kingspoint
07-28-2008, 08:29 AM
I believe G.M's are looking at the wrong part of Adam Dunn.

Instead of looking at the .230 hitter who hits poorly with RISP and plays questionable defense, they should be looking at how many runs Dunn creates per 27 outs.

Dunn's currently ranked 20th in all of MLB at 7.47 Runs Created per 27 Outs.

To put that in perspective Josh Hamilton is at 7.27, but of course plays better defense.

But, Manny Ramirez is a joke defensively in the Outfied, and his RC/27 outs is similar to Dunn's at 7.55.

Yet, any hint of Ramirez being available gets the attention of seemingly every contending G.M. out there.

Runs Created per 27 outs might have it's flaws, but it's got to be a better way to look at Dunn's value than homeruns, or batting average, or RBI's, or his Defense.

Someone's not doing a good job of showing the value that Dunn has right now. He's in his prime, and his stats this year support this. Yes, there's reports out there from MLB scouts that his bat speed is already in decline, but even if it is, he's adjusted in other areas to maintain his RC/27 outs.

20th in all of baseball in this category is an ungodly number. 16 teams have nobody who is creating 7.47 Runs per 27 Outs at all. And, he's even hotter in July than that the last month.

schmidty622
07-28-2008, 08:37 AM
I think they are looking at what the Reds are asking for, and at the fact that Dunn is a two month rental player, moreso than he being a poor player. If the Reds really wanted to trade him, they could get it done. Just lower the asking price and they would have a deal.

TheBigLebowski
07-28-2008, 09:41 AM
Then why don't we just advocate keeping him?

HalMorrisRules
07-28-2008, 10:10 AM
Then why don't we just advocate keeping him?

My thoughts exactly!

redsfanmia
07-28-2008, 10:26 AM
Then why don't we just advocate keeping him?

Lets sign him a keep on losing whoo hoo.

dunner13
07-28-2008, 10:32 AM
His bat speed is dropping......yet he is tied for the NL lead in homeruns. Im betting theres alot of players who wish there bat would slow down like that.

Resign dunn. The biggest problem with our offense the last few years is that the only source of power has been dunn. Now with bruce, votto, encarnacion, phillips that has changed and as those guys develop we wont have to depend on one player to carry us. If dunns in a slump one of the other players can pick it up for him.

Ahhhorsepoo
07-28-2008, 10:37 AM
when griffey is healthy he score and creates runs a clip equal to that of dunn.. and up until this last month or so he was still an upgrade on dunns defense.. now they are a wash, with a slight lean maybe toward dunn.. not because he is improving that much, but because griffeys has declined that much..

soo dont tell me he is the only source of power on this team..

44Magnum
07-28-2008, 10:38 AM
They can't trade Dunn becasue nobody is willing to give up anything for him. That should tell you something about him. Dunn has been on a hot streak, so according to his career trends up to this point, he is due for a prolonged slump.

It's possible that a team could trade for him now and he hit only about 10 more HR's the rest of the way. That would be getting a one trick pony minus the trick.

BLEEDS
07-28-2008, 11:03 AM
when griffey is healthy he score and creates runs a clip equal to that of dunn.. and up until this last month or so he was still an upgrade on dunns defense.. now they are a wash, with a slight lean maybe toward dunn.. not because he is improving that much, but because griffeys has declined that much..

soo dont tell me he is the only source of power on this team..

Now you are REALLY out there, with your um, "sarcasm"...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

TheBigLebowski
07-28-2008, 11:07 AM
Lets sign him a keep on losing whoo hoo.

Do you really think Adam Dunn is the reason why we've been losing the past few years? If anything, he's one of the few bright spots.

redsfanmia
07-28-2008, 11:27 AM
Do you really think Adam Dunn is the reason why we've been losing the past few years? If anything, he's one of the few bright spots.

I think that Dunn and Griffey are the leaders of the team and thus they contribute to the losing attitude. Dunn is a good offensive player, I realize that, but I think its time to move on and do something else. I am tired of seeing a team with no heart and I think Dunn has something to do with that.

AFalcon10
07-28-2008, 11:36 AM
I think we are just asking too much for Dunn.. we value him too much which is a blessing in disguise because I really hope I see big 44 in Reds Red next year.

Trace's Daddy
07-28-2008, 11:53 AM
soo dont tell me he is the only source of power on this team..


He is the only source of power on this team.;)

Fil3232
07-28-2008, 12:27 PM
I think that Dunn and Griffey are the leaders of the team and thus they contribute to the losing attitude. Dunn is a good offensive player, I realize that, but I think its time to move on and do something else. I am tired of seeing a team with no heart and I think Dunn has something to do with that.

If only the Reds problem was not enough "heart"....:rolleyes:

That's such a tiresome cop-out to the real problem: NOT ENOUGH TALENT.

Get rid of Dunn and that problem becomes even worse.

BLEEDS
07-28-2008, 12:35 PM
If only the Reds problem was not enough "heart"....:rolleyes:

That's such a tiresome cop-out to the real problem: NOT ENOUGH TALENT.

Get rid of Dunn and that problem becomes even worse.

Agreed 100%.

If Heart=Pitching, then yes, we need more Heart.

I don't care how much HEART you have, if the other teams drops 23 on you in a 3 game series, you're still doing something wrong with your roster in terms of SKILL in the NON-position players.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

44Magnum
07-28-2008, 12:38 PM
If only the Reds problem was not enough "heart"....:rolleyes:

That's such a tiresome cop-out to the real problem: NOT ENOUGH TALENT.

Get rid of Dunn and that problem becomes even worse.

Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. Dunn and Jr. kill this team. If you don't think heart and attitude have a lot to do with how you play the game and winning, then you my friend don't know much about baseball.

Trace's Daddy
07-28-2008, 12:45 PM
I thought baseball involved scoring runs not hearts. Dunn produces runs.

Fil3232
07-28-2008, 01:27 PM
Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. Dunn and Jr. kill this team. If you don't think heart and attitude have a lot to do with how you play the game and winning, then you my friend don't know much about baseball.

I'll bite.

How much does heart have to do with winning? Can you please elaborate? Can you detail how much it affects a team's Wins and Losses? Can you quantify it? Can you put a value on it in the free agent market? How is heart measured from player to player? How much weight should teams place on 'heart' compared to other performance measures?

Don't you think that major league players, especially the caliber of the two in question, have tremendous amounts of work ethic? Or do you think its simply talent? Or better yet, do you think its a case that they've lost their work ethic (or heart) as they been paid millions of dollars? Whatever the case, I think it's you sir, who has lost the forest from the trees. Specifically, this team has been devoid of talent, namely pitching talent, since the turn of the century, and no amount of work ethic, heart, or whatever you want to call it from two of the team's best players is going to componsate for terrible pitching.

redsfanmia
07-28-2008, 01:52 PM
If only the Reds problem was not enough "heart"....:rolleyes:

That's such a tiresome cop-out to the real problem: NOT ENOUGH TALENT.

Get rid of Dunn and that problem becomes even worse.

I dont believe that. How long do you want to ride the Dunn horse? Its time for a change and that change is Griffey and Dunn gone.

redsfanmia
07-28-2008, 01:54 PM
Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. Dunn and Jr. kill this team. If you don't think heart and attitude have a lot to do with how you play the game and winning, then you my friend don't know much about baseball.

You cant measure heart and attitude with a stat and thus its has no bearing on the game, according to most on this board. I have played on teams with horrible leadership and we always underachieved, I have played on teams with great leadership and we usually overachieved.

Fil3232
07-28-2008, 01:57 PM
How long do you want to ride the terrible pitching horse? Its time for a change and that change is better pitching.

We agree.

Fil3232
07-28-2008, 01:59 PM
You cant measure heart and attitude with a stat and thus its has no bearing on the game, according to most on this board. I have played on teams with horrible leadership and we always underachieved, I have played on teams with great leadership and we usually overachieved.

So it's in the eye of the beholder, eh? And from there people's biases, poor judgement and personal agendas can shape how they view certain situations, right? So, agian I ask, how can we accurately and appropriately measure 'heart?'

Nasty_Boy
07-28-2008, 02:05 PM
How about this... Other teams aren't allowed to talk about other team's players, i.e. tampering. Maybe the Reds are floating the idea of nobody wanting him because they are hoping to sign him at a lower cost before he becomes a free agent. Maybe the thought of playing somewhere else won't be as enticing as staying in Cincy if the money isn't much different.

Ahhhorsepoo
07-28-2008, 02:27 PM
if he makes less than 11 or 12 mil i am ok.. not happy.. but OK with it..

since bob c. said he wanted to up the salary..

redsfanmia
07-28-2008, 02:43 PM
So it's in the eye of the beholder, eh? And from there people's biases, poor judgement and personal agendas can shape how they view certain situations, right? So, agian I ask, how can we accurately and appropriately measure 'heart?'

I dont have an answer for you but i know when what I see in Dunn and what other General Managers IE Richardi in Toronto see and its lack heart/commitment. Has Adam Dunn improved in any facet of the game since his rookie year? Is Adam Dunn overweight?

Ghosts of 1990
07-28-2008, 02:48 PM
when griffey is healthy he score and creates runs a clip equal to that of dunn.. and up until this last month or so he was still an upgrade on dunns defense.. now they are a wash, with a slight lean maybe toward dunn.. not because he is improving that much, but because griffeys has declined that much..

soo dont tell me he is the only source of power on this team..

I don't say this often, sir. But this is the worst post I've ever read on here. You're wrong. You couldnt have been more wrong if you specialized in typing wong statements.

I(heart)Freel
07-28-2008, 02:58 PM
Agreed 100%.

If Heart=Pitching, then yes, we need more Heart.

I don't care how much HEART you have, if the other teams drops 23 on you in a 3 game series, you're still doing something wrong with your roster in terms of SKILL in the NON-position players.

PEACE

-BLEEDS


Of course scoring 3 runs in the same series is excusable.

Our offense is set up to feast or starve. And I might argue that that is predicated on the goings of one Adam Dunn.

I for one am tired of waiting for the 3-run bomb.

BuckU
07-28-2008, 02:59 PM
He is the only source of power on this team.;)

EE is on pace for 30+, Phillips is on pace for 35+, Votto is on pace for 25+, and Bruce (pro-rating him over a full year) would be on pace for 25+.

Add in whoever takes over for Dunn & Griffey and you have plenty of power. I don't like or dislike Dunn, but its clear that after 8 years maybe its time to move on.

redsfanmia
07-28-2008, 03:03 PM
EE is on pace for 30+, Phillips is on pace for 35+, Votto is on pace for 25+, and Bruce (pro-rating him over a full year) would be on pace for 25+.

Add in whoever takes over for Dunn & Griffey and you have plenty of power. I don't like or dislike Dunn, but its clear that after 8 years maybe its time to move on.

Amen, my personal dislike of Dunn has more to do with my expectations of him when he was a rookie and him not living up to them, but I too think its time to move on. In GABP a guy who hit 20 home runs on another team would hit 28 to 32.

BLEEDS
07-28-2008, 03:46 PM
Of course scoring 3 runs in the same series is excusable.

Our offense is set up to feast or starve. And I might argue that that is predicated on the goings of one Adam Dunn.

I for one am tired of waiting for the 3-run bomb.

So you think this offense would score MORE, WITHOUT Dunn??!?!

I love that argument, the way to get better offensively, as a whole, is to FIRST get rid of your best offensive player, then everything will fall in place...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Nasty_Boy
07-28-2008, 03:48 PM
I fail to see how Phillips is on pace for 35+ HRs and Votto isn't on pace for 25+. Edwin may get to 30 and Bruce may get to 15.

I also fail to see how 1 guy that has done nothing but produce is the problem. Keep the guy that produces, get rid of the crap that has surrounded him not only in the batting order but especially on the pitching mound.

I also see a guy that has improved in every area the last few seasons. He's a much better defender, he strikes out less, he drives in runs at a higher rate, he gets on base at a higher rate, and he plays everyday. He has improved in every area except batting average which you people still think has an effect on runs scored and RBIs.

BLEEDS
07-28-2008, 04:01 PM
EE is on pace for 30+, Phillips is on pace for 35+, Votto is on pace for 25+, and Bruce (pro-rating him over a full year) would be on pace for 25+.


EE MIGHT get 30 HR's this year.
BP 35+?!?!? So you think he's going to hit 20 HR in his last 56 games, when he's only had 16 in his fist 103? I'd be willing to wager BP NEVER EVER EVER hits 30+ HR's again in a single season.
Votto too, on pace for 25? He'll need 12 in 56 versus his 13 in his first 101. I think he'll get to 20 maybe, and has 25 + ability in the FUTURE, maybe.

Back to Ye Olde "We can Make Up for Dunn by EVERYONE ELSE upping their numbers" argument. Wonderful!!

Gee, sure would hate for EVERYONE to play better AND keep our best hitter too - apparently that's too much to ask huh?!?!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
07-28-2008, 04:29 PM
BPhill will get back over 30.. Bleeds.. your love affair with Adam Dunn has you thinking everyone else is bad..

Phillips is getting alot better at laying off the low and outside stuff.. he is becoming more selective, and with a few real hitters behind him he would be better protected.. pitch around phillips.. pitch around dunn.. then its a crap shoot for who is behind them..

and please don't tell me dunn gets pitched around all the time and doesn't get balls to hit.. he wouldnt have 200 strikeouts if at least 600 strikes weren't crossing the plate..

it seems there is noone on this team that swings and misses, or watches soo many strike 3's go by him.. BPhill usually strikesout on pitches outside the zone.. terrible reads on the ball.. dunn swings and sometimes the head of the bat doesnt come within 6 inches of any path of the ball..

BLEEDS
07-28-2008, 04:38 PM
BPhill will get back over 30.. Bleeds.. your love affair with Adam Dunn has you thinking everyone else is bad..


Not true one bit. I've seen the data that suggest he was EXTREMELY lucky to get those 30 Hrs - led the league in "just enough to get over" HR's or the like terminology.

He is HORRIBLE against 70% of the pitchers he gets to face, so the likelihood of him getting over 30 again isn't very good.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I(heart)Freel
07-28-2008, 04:44 PM
So you think this offense would score MORE, WITHOUT Dunn??!?!

I love that argument, the way to get better offensively, as a whole, is to FIRST get rid of your best offensive player, then everything will fall in place...

PEACE

-BLEEDS


Best in your terms, yes.

But again... to my point... we've tried to outslug opponents since GABP opened. It hasn't worked. It's been the baseball equivalent of a 7-car pileup on I-75. "Move along, folks... nothing to see here."

When Dunn is on his game and hitting homers, he carries this team. When he isn't, we see three-run series like the one we just witnessed.

Yes yes yes... he's one player. Play that card and say maybe it has something to do with the players around him in the lineup. And that's true. But Dunn is also the highest paid player and gets paid to carry this team. So when he doesn't, well, it bites.

So for me... I would prefer to get someone who doesn't require a 450 foot fly to drive in runs. (And who can cut off a ball before it gets to the wall nine times out of ten.) He'll cost less and we'll use that excess money to help our upgrade our bench, or add a stud in the rotation. It's about using resources.

I just think we can use Dunn's salary better. So trade him, get a piece of the puzzle that way, and get the rest with what would have been his 2009 salary.

Then, yes, I think everything will start to fall in place.

danken12
07-28-2008, 04:53 PM
Best in your terms, yes.

But again... to my point... we've tried to outslug opponents since GABP opened. It hasn't worked. It's been the baseball equivalent of a 7-car pileup on I-75. "Move along, folks... nothing to see here."

When Dunn is on his game and hitting homers, he carries this team. When he isn't, we see three-run series like the one we just witnessed.

Yes yes yes... he's one player. Play that card and say maybe it has something to do with the players around him in the lineup. And that's true. But Dunn is also the highest paid player and gets paid to carry this team. So when he doesn't, well, it bites.

So for me... I would prefer to get someone who doesn't require a 450 foot fly to drive in runs. (And who can cut off a ball before it gets to the wall nine times out of ten.) He'll cost less and we'll use that excess money to help our upgrade our bench, or add a stud in the rotation. It's about using resources.

I just think we can use Dunn's salary better. So trade him, get a piece of the puzzle that way, and get the rest with what would have been his 2009 salary.

Then, yes, I think everything will start to fall in place.

There aren't any legitimate free agents on the market who would cost any significant amount less than Dunn which would free up salary for a "stud" in the rotation. For that matter, the only way we're getting a stud is to trade some of our young talent. Dunn is what he is. He's a run producer, who gets on base and hits homers. I dont' understand why everyone continues to devalue him, when it's the other 7 players on the team that need to improve. Sure he's making the most money, sans Griffey, but he's producing while a whole lot of the rest of the team is not.

BLEEDS
07-28-2008, 05:03 PM
I just think we can use Dunn's salary better. So trade him, get a piece of the puzzle that way, and get the rest with what would have been his 2009 salary.


I'd love to hear your REALISTIC options.

Point is, no matter what you do, you're going to have to replace HIS OFFENSE - not by a combined collective of 6 guys adding 5 HRS and 20 RBIs to their career norms.

We are also CAPABLE of spending money on BOTH hitting and pitching. We're not hamstrung by some imaginary Payroll number. The Reds are VERY profitable, and if they intend on sticking with the "you need to spend more to make more" then signing Dunn AND using $10-$15m additional is nowhere near out of the question.

I've heard all the arguments before, and I'm ready to listen to any REALISTIC option to Dunn, but haven't heard any.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Fil3232
07-28-2008, 05:12 PM
Best in your terms, yes.

But again... to my point... we've tried to outslug opponents since GABP opened. It hasn't worked. It's been the baseball equivalent of a 7-car pileup on I-75. "Move along, folks... nothing to see here."

When Dunn is on his game and hitting homers, he carries this team. When he isn't, we see three-run series like the one we just witnessed.

Yes yes yes... he's one player. Play that card and say maybe it has something to do with the players around him in the lineup. And that's true. But Dunn is also the highest paid player and gets paid to carry this team. So when he doesn't, well, it bites.

So for me... I would prefer to get someone who doesn't require a 450 foot fly to drive in runs. (And who can cut off a ball before it gets to the wall nine times out of ten.) He'll cost less and we'll use that excess money to help our upgrade our bench, or add a stud in the rotation. It's about using resources.

I just think we can use Dunn's salary better. So trade him, get a piece of the puzzle that way, and get the rest with what would have been his 2009 salary.

Then, yes, I think everything will start to fall in place.

Fall in place magically? I see no concrete, real ideas for improvement.

You're still playing the addition by subtraction card with Dunn, and that is flat out ignorant.

And you even start to concede that Dunn is one man, but then you fault him for not carrying the offense EVERY SINGLE GAME. Please, please, please find me a player who lives up to your expectations.

BuckU
07-28-2008, 05:30 PM
I'd love to hear your REALISTIC options.

Point is, no matter what you do, you're going to have to replace HIS OFFENSE - not by a combined collective of 6 guys adding 5 HRS and 20 RBIs to their career norms.

We are also CAPABLE of spending money on BOTH hitting and pitching. We're not hamstrung by some imaginary Payroll number. The Reds are VERY profitable, and if they intend on sticking with the "you need to spend more to make more" then signing Dunn AND using $10-$15m additional is nowhere near out of the question.

I've heard all the arguments before, and I'm ready to listen to any REALISTIC option to Dunn, but haven't heard any.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

You are, without a doubt, entitled to your opinion.

I guess I have seen enough out of Dunn and losing for 8+ years that I am ready to move on. A power hitter (by that I mean 45ish homeruns) is not a requirement to succeed. Look at the Dodgers & Marlins...there are other ways to win a game. I'm ready to try them.

Ahhhorsepoo
07-28-2008, 05:50 PM
You are, without a doubt, entitled to your opinion.

I guess I have seen enough out of Dunn and losing for 8+ years that I am ready to move on. A power hitter (by that I mean 45ish homeruns) is not a requirement to succeed. Look at the Dodgers & Marlins...there are other ways to win a game. I'm ready to try them.

especially in a park that can make a guy who hits 20 homers into a guy who hits 25 or 30..

BLEEDS
07-28-2008, 06:36 PM
You are, without a doubt, entitled to your opinion.

I guess I have seen enough out of Dunn and losing for 8+ years that I am ready to move on. A power hitter (by that I mean 45ish homeruns) is not a requirement to succeed. Look at the Dodgers & Marlins...there are other ways to win a game. I'm ready to try them.


especially in a park that can make a guy who hits 20 homers into a guy who hits 25 or 30..

Still waiting for these "ALTERNATIVES". Simply saying Dunn is not enough doesn't solve the problem.

You want to replace Dunn with Carl Crawford - you are going to be down about 2 wins a year alone.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

PTI (pti)
07-28-2008, 06:38 PM
Religion
Politics
Adam Dunn



What should these topics of discussion all have in common?

BLEEDS
07-28-2008, 06:43 PM
Religion
Politics
Adam Dunn

What should these topics of discussion all have in common?

don't know, but only one of them has a place in a BASEBALL forum.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

TC81190
07-28-2008, 07:05 PM
I think that if there is a problem with the heart of the team on the field that the blame should be laid on the coaching and not on one particular player.

RedLegsToday
07-28-2008, 10:05 PM
Adam Dunn, 30 hr and 72 rbi now.

OPS
07-28-2008, 10:36 PM
That Adam Dunn is the best Reds offensive player is not even up for debate. It could be possible to let Dunn walk if you can find other players to make up for all of the lost runs. The only free agents for the coming year who might be able to do that are Burrell, Teixera, and Bradley. Burrell and Teixera will likely be more expensive than Dunn. Bradley will also be expensive and is an injury risk. I think it would be a big mistake to let Dunn walk.

BLEEDS
07-29-2008, 12:01 AM
Yeah, but we only are competitive when Dunn is "carrying the team", when he's not, we get 3 run series' - SO, what to do? GET RID OF THE ONE GUY WHO CAN ACTUALLY SCORE RUNS FOR THIS TEAM!!

BRILLIANT!!!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I(heart)Freel
07-29-2008, 12:49 AM
Bleeds... seriously dude, quit yelling. You don't make a point any more compelling when you type in caps.

You guys can love on Dunn all you want and talk about the doomsday it would be without him here. But I've seen plenty of teams get by without a 40-homerun hitter in their lineup. Not just get by. Compete. Win. Play in October.

This team is built to win when he and Junior hit homeruns. When they don't, we suffer. Like others have said... I'm ready to see another kind of offense. You know they have those too.

The thing about Dunn... he's a machine when you look at his annual stats. End of the season you look and see huge production. You see a studly OPS. You see league leading homers.

For me... I watch every game. So I look at this on a day by day basis. And for every game he jacks one and drives in some runs, there will be 3 games where he'll go 0-3 with a walk.

I've long said... Dunn is a good ballplayer. But I'd like to try a better game by game player. The guy who gets 1-2 hits a night, sprinkles in some power (simply because he plays in GASmallPark) and who plays solid defense.

Dunn could get $16 mill a year on the open market. For that, we could sign someone like Brian Giles and have money for a Derek Lowe.

And if that's the thought, then you can trade Homer this week for Salty, since we're planning to go get a FA starter (again, like Lowe).

Just thoughts, since everyone's all about an example right now. I could better research the free agent class next year and have better examples, especially since we do have the option of moving Votto to left and signing a first baseman. Or shifting Edwin around. But I'm tired.

The point is... get a $5-6 million hitter who plays good defense and who can drive in runs the boring way, and have $10 million to throw toward a good starter. I would take my chances with that club in 2009 before wheeling out the same kind of club next year and expecting different results.

BLEEDS
07-29-2008, 11:54 AM
You guys can love on Dunn all you want and talk about the doomsday it would be without him here. But I've seen plenty of teams get by without a 40-homerun hitter in their lineup. Not just get by. Compete. Win. Play in October.

Name one, I think we've already established that the last 8 or so WORLD CHAMPIONS have had a 40+ HR guy in their lineup. You need a BIG BAT to play with the BIG BOYS.


This team is built to win when he and Junior hit homeruns. When they don't, we suffer. Like others have said... I'm ready to see another kind of offense. You know they have those too.

What kind of offense do you think we'll see - other than one that scores LESS runs?!?!? That's not a good kind. You take umbrage with HOW they're scored, which is ridiculous.


The thing about Dunn... he's a machine when you look at his annual stats. End of the season you look and see huge production. You see a studly OPS. You see league leading homers.

Yes, his PRODUCTION - runs, rbi's, etc - are impressive. Where will they come from if he's replaced, that is the question - surely not from someone who scores/produces LESS runs, no?


For me... I watch every game. So I look at this on a day by day basis. And for every game he jacks one and drives in some runs, there will be 3 games where he'll go 0-3 with a walk.

So you're saying he gets only one or two hits every 4 games? That's nonsense.


I've long said... Dunn is a good ballplayer. But I'd like to try a better game by game player. The guy who gets 1-2 hits a night, sprinkles in some power (simply because he plays in GASmallPark) and who plays solid defense.

so you want someone that gets 200+ hits per year? WOW, who wouldn't. I'm sure they can be had for $4M per year.



Dunn could get $16 mill a year on the open market. For that, we could sign someone like Brian Giles and have money for a Derek Lowe.

1st - Brian Giles is not a Free Agent, so who are we trading to San Diego for him?
2nd - he fits none of your "credentials" and he's 37 years old.
3rd - Derek Lowe, who is also 35, is going to demand a multi-year deal in the $15-20M range, his agent is Scot Boras, one not known for taking low-ball FA deals. HIS Contract alone would be more than $16M. AND, he would NOT want to come to Cincinnati anyway, unless we overpaid for him, like $100M+ for 5 years or so.



Just thoughts, since everyone's all about an example right now. I could better research the free agent class next year and have better examples, especially since we do have the option of moving Votto to left and signing a first baseman. Or shifting Edwin around. But I'm tired.

Votto to LF would be a downgrade defensively. As has been debated previously many times, he struggles to play 1B well. Switching him to LF is a pipe dream.


The point is... get a $5-6 million hitter who plays good defense and who can drive in runs the boring way, and have $10 million to throw toward a good starter. I would take my chances with that club in 2009 before wheeling out the same kind of club next year and expecting different results.

Please let me know who this hitter is who plays great D and can be signed for $5M and has no flaws - outside of being short about 40-50 in RC versus Dunn.

Again, NOBODY can put out a realistic scenario in which we replace the WIN SHARES that Dunn provides by paying the same or less money as they all claim. It's not possible given REAL metrics used to measure Run Production and Win Shares.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
07-29-2008, 12:21 PM
Juan Rivera is a FA and LAA has tons of OF'ers so he gets buried on their roster..

lifetime .288 hitter.. .340 OBP.. .470 SLG..
he can fill the role dunn has right now, with a slight dropoff in runs, even tho when given the chance to play most everyday he has improved every year.. but saving 10 mil a year for 20 runs.. you could easily make that up with the other 10-12 mil spent somewhere else..

Assuming Matthews is recovered by the end of the year.. the Angels will probably part with rivera.. IF they won't then why did they bury him with more OF'ers in 2006?

Rivera could be had for 5-8 mil a year..

Fon Duc Tow
07-29-2008, 12:45 PM
The thing about Dunn is, he is too good for GAB. Houston could use a guy like Dunn because he has the power to send it out of the park in any direction. Small ballpark teams like the Reds don't need someone with as much power as Dunn has. Dunn's power is "overkill" in GAB.

So I guess I don't agree with either side here. I think Dunn is an awesome ball player who would do very well as a LF or DH with a team that plays in a bigger ballpark. But what the Reds needs are .300 +20 HR guys that GAB will turn into .300 +30 HR guys.

Fil3232
07-29-2008, 12:46 PM
Juan Rivera is a FA and LAA has tons of OF'ers so he gets buried on their roster..

lifetime .288 hitter.. .340 OBP.. .470 SLG..
he can fill the role dunn has right now, with a slight dropoff in runs, even tho when given the chance to play most everyday he has improved every year.. but saving 10 mil a year for 20 runs.. you could easily make that up with the other 10-12 mil spent somewhere else..

Assuming Matthews is recovered by the end of the year.. the Angels will probably part with rivera.. IF they won't then why did they bury him with more OF'ers in 2006?

Rivera could be had for 5-8 mil a year..

Juan Rivera is older than Adam Dunn and has collected over 500 ABs in a season zero times (1 season with > 400ABs).

And the drop off for the Reds offense from Dunn to Rivera won't be 20 runs, although it would be a multiple of 20.

Eric Davis
07-29-2008, 12:48 PM
Votto would be far from a downgrade over Dunn. The amount of athleticism Joey has over AD isn't even comparable. Not to say there wouldn't be a bit of a learning curve but I feel a lot better about Votto tracking fly balls than I do Adam Dunn.

BLEEDS
07-29-2008, 12:55 PM
Votto would be far from a downgrade over Dunn. The amount of athleticism Joey has over AD isn't even comparable. Not to say there wouldn't be a bit of a learning curve but I feel a lot better about Votto tracking fly balls than I do Adam Dunn.

That is incorrect.

They tried Votto in LF last year - they being THE REDS - not some guy named Eric Davis on RedsZone making assumptions about players ability to play LF based on their opinions of "Athleticism" - and he stunk it up.

Plenty of players move from LF to 1B as they get older, because it's an easier position to field. Nobody moves from 1B to LF.

Again, it's a myth propogated by guys who play Fantasy Baseball and/or X-Box and just mix-and-match people to positions based on nothing baseball related.

Move Votto to LF, move Phillips to SS, Keppinger to SS or 3B thinking it's an upgrade, etc... nonsense.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Nasty_Boy
07-29-2008, 12:58 PM
These threads get more and more out there every day. The "so called Dunn lovers" put up facts and realistic FA and trade options... The Dunn haters talk about how he is the reason the Reds are losing and offer no replacement options.

These .300 hitters that would get 10 more HRs a season in GABP are all over the place, but the Reds (and everyone else) just don't sign them.

The best argument against Dunn is that some people just don't like him. For whatever reason the player that has kept the Reds from being Royal, Ray, and Pirate bad is to blame for 8 losing seasons. And instead of keeping part of the solution they want to get rid of him and create another problem or should I say make the current problem worse(scoring runs).

BLEEDS
07-29-2008, 01:04 PM
Juan Rivera is a FA and LAA has tons of OF'ers so he gets buried on their roster..

lifetime .288 hitter.. .340 OBP.. .470 SLG..
he can fill the role dunn has right now, with a slight dropoff in runs, even tho when given the chance to play most everyday he has improved every year.. but saving 10 mil a year for 20 runs.. you could easily make that up with the other 10-12 mil spent somewhere else..

Assuming Matthews is recovered by the end of the year.. the Angels will probably part with rivera.. IF they won't then why did they bury him with more OF'ers in 2006?

Rivera could be had for 5-8 mil a year..

I swear you are stuck in 2006. Apparently that is the only year that matters for you.

Rivera is the epitomy of a one-hit wonder, who's career numbers are skewed by something done ONCE a LONG TIME AGO. No reason to think he'd be anywhere near those numbers.

Currently he's 252/.313/.417/.730, and he's OPS'd over .770 in a season exactly ONCE in the last four years, and is NOT an every day player for many many reasons.

Another laughable suggestion.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ghosts of 1990
07-29-2008, 01:11 PM
The thing about Dunn is, he is too good for GAB. Houston could use a guy like Dunn because he has the power to send it out of the park in any direction. Small ballpark teams like the Reds don't need someone with as much power as Dunn has. Dunn's power is "overkill" in GAB.

So I guess I don't agree with either side here. I think Dunn is an awesome ball player who would do very well as a LF or DH with a team that plays in a bigger ballpark. But what the Reds needs are .300 +20 HR guys that GAB will turn into .300 +30 HR guys.

Now there's a theory I haven't heard yet.

He's too good so lets get rid of him.... He'd be a better fit in a bigger ballpark. Hahahahaha. Too much power! It's overkill. We gotta let him go.

Ahhhorsepoo
07-29-2008, 01:18 PM
laughable? how do you figure?

his stats are a little skewed because he isn't an everyday player.. and to be successful you have to be given that opportunity.. when he was an everyday player he was successful..

if we want to win its guys like this that are far cheaper than dunn that will help it happen..

look at his game log and see what happened when he went from a fill in player to an everyday player..

you're stuck at looking at yearly averages.. and not actually lookin at things like the fact that for every 10-15 days dunn hits 8-10 homers.. he has runs of MONTHS where he hits below .200 and drives in 10 runs or so.. sorry but just because he can help us win an extra 3 or 4 games in a 2 week period.. that other month he potentially cost us just as many games..

Ahhhorsepoo
07-29-2008, 01:19 PM
Now there's a theory I haven't heard yet.

He's too good so lets get rid of him.... He'd be a better fit in a bigger ballpark. Hahahahaha. Too much power! It's overkill. We gotta let him go.

no he is saying GABP turns ANY 20 homer guy into a decent power threat..

BLEEDS
07-29-2008, 01:28 PM
laughable? how do you figure?

his stats are a little skewed because he isn't an everyday player.. and to be successful you have to be given that opportunity.. when he was an everyday player he was successful..

if we want to win its guys like this that are far cheaper than dunn that will help it happen..

look at his game log and see what happened when he went from a fill in player to an everyday player..

you're stuck at looking at yearly averages.. and not actually lookin at things like the fact that for every 10-15 days dunn hits 8-10 homers.. he has runs of MONTHS where he hits below .170.. sorry but just because he can help us win an extra 3 or 4 games in a 2 week period.. that other month he potentially cost us just as many games..

No, you are right, take a guy who doesn't play everyday and project him to replace a 40/100/100/100 guy with only a 20 run loss margin. THAT is a great theory.

He's obviously a .300/.350/.450/.800 everyday guy, who NOBODY else in the Majors has determined is worth trading for.

Then, spend $4M on Derek Lowe.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Eric Davis
07-29-2008, 01:54 PM
That is incorrect.

They tried Votto in LF last year - they being THE REDS - not some guy named Eric Davis on RedsZone making assumptions about players ability to play LF based on their opinions of "Athleticism" - and he stunk it up.

Plenty of players move from LF to 1B as they get older, because it's an easier position to field. Nobody moves from 1B to LF.

Again, it's a myth propogated by guys who play Fantasy Baseball and/or X-Box and just mix-and-match people to positions based on nothing baseball related.

Move Votto to LF, move Phillips to SS, Keppinger to SS or 3B thinking it's an upgrade, etc... nonsense.

PEACE

-BLEEDS


I don't remember him stinking it up at all. If you hit a few flyballs out to left who gets to more of them? An athletic guy or a big lumbering ogre? Just because you have an obsession with beer league softball players who might make you ooohhh and awwwee a couple times a week with a homerun doesn't make your opinion the right one. Votto played LF quite a bit in the minors but was left on first in order to get his bat in the lineup. It's people like you who think baseball is a game of home run derby that don't understand why this current lineup is so pitiful. No average hitters and piss poor defensive players all over the field make a team mediocre fast. But hey throw 16 million a year at a guy because he makes your ********* when he hits a 450 foot homerun. Logical.

Fil3232
07-29-2008, 02:12 PM
I don't remember him stinking it up at all. If you hit a few flyballs out to left who gets to more of them? An athletic guy or a big lumbering ogre? Just because you have an obsession with beer league softball players who might make you ooohhh and awwwee a couple times a week with a homerun doesn't make your opinion the right one. Votto played LF quite a bit in the minors but was left on first in order to get his bat in the lineup. It's people like you who think baseball is a game of home run derby that don't understand why this current lineup is so pitiful. No average hitters and piss poor defensive players all over the field make a team mediocre fast. But hey throw 16 million a year at a guy because he makes your ********* when he hits a 450 foot homerun. Logical.

Do you understand why the current lineup is so pitiful?

44Magnum
07-29-2008, 02:17 PM
I dont have an answer for you but i know when what I see in Dunn and what other General Managers IE Richardi in Toronto see and its lack heart/commitment. Has Adam Dunn improved in any facet of the game since his rookie year? Is Adam Dunn overweight?

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

You tell 'em redsfanmia, even though they won't listen.

44Magnum
07-29-2008, 02:21 PM
Mrs. Dunn (Bleeds),

We understand that you love Adam. That is fine. However, the intelligent Reds fans can see through some misleading statistics. Adam is what he is.
Enjoy your new home in whatever AL city you end up in.

Sincerely,
Knowledgeable Reds Fans

I(heart)Freel
07-29-2008, 02:30 PM
Name one, I think we've already established that the last 8 or so WORLD CHAMPIONS have had a 40+ HR guy in their lineup. You need a BIG BAT to play with the BIG BOYS.



What kind of offense do you think we'll see - other than one that scores LESS runs?!?!? That's not a good kind. You take umbrage with HOW they're scored, which is ridiculous.



Yes, his PRODUCTION - runs, rbi's, etc - are impressive. Where will they come from if he's replaced, that is the question - surely not from someone who scores/produces LESS runs, no?



So you're saying he gets only one or two hits every 4 games? That's nonsense.



so you want someone that gets 200+ hits per year? WOW, who wouldn't. I'm sure they can be had for $4M per year.



1st - Brian Giles is not a Free Agent, so who are we trading to San Diego for him?
2nd - he fits none of your "credentials" and he's 37 years old.
3rd - Derek Lowe, who is also 35, is going to demand a multi-year deal in the $15-20M range, his agent is Scot Boras, one not known for taking low-ball FA deals. HIS Contract alone would be more than $16M. AND, he would NOT want to come to Cincinnati anyway, unless we overpaid for him, like $100M+ for 5 years or so.




Votto to LF would be a downgrade defensively. As has been debated previously many times, he struggles to play 1B well. Switching him to LF is a pipe dream.



Please let me know who this hitter is who plays great D and can be signed for $5M and has no flaws - outside of being short about 40-50 in RC versus Dunn.

Again, NOBODY can put out a realistic scenario in which we replace the WIN SHARES that Dunn provides by paying the same or less money as they all claim. It's not possible given REAL metrics used to measure Run Production and Win Shares.

PEACE

-BLEEDS


As soon as you said that Votto is a downgrade defensively, I stopped reading.

You keep asking for us to name replacements, but that's all past production right? I mean, did you see Josh Hamilton doing what he's doing this year? Could you have predicted a Jose Guillen from a few years back, producing as he did? Even a Jeff Keppinger (pre-injury)?

No. I suspect you didn't.

So stop asking for names and hanging your hat on that argument.

What if the Reds got an upcoming LF for Dunn in a trade... a Kemp or someone like that. Then his entire salary could be used to get the FA starter. And PS I don't think Lowe will command what you're saying. He's top of the second tier of FAs. But I respect that my estimate was low.

But still... would you prefer Kemp and Lowe in 2009 or Dunn? As an example.

See my thread on Dunn's 2008 RBI production to understand more what I'm saying about relying on the longball to drive in runs.

BLEEDS
07-29-2008, 02:32 PM
I don't remember him stinking it up at all. If you hit a few flyballs out to left who gets to more of them? An athletic guy or a big lumbering ogre? Just because you have an obsession with beer league softball players who might make you ooohhh and awwwee a couple times a week with a homerun doesn't make your opinion the right one. Votto played LF quite a bit in the minors but was left on first in order to get his bat in the lineup. It's people like you who think baseball is a game of home run derby that don't understand why this current lineup is so pitiful. No average hitters and piss poor defensive players all over the field make a team mediocre fast. But hey throw 16 million a year at a guy because he makes your ********* when he hits a 450 foot homerun. Logical.

Votto played 40 of 542 games in LF in the minors, with a .961 Fielding Percentage. Let me guess - your EYES didn't tell you that??!?!

I don't think baseball is a game of Home Run Derby - it's a game of RUN DERBY, and "guys like you" want to get these "imaginary" cheap and readily available .300 hitters with speed to play small ball in a BandBox to the tune of 30-40+ NEGATIVE runs versus what Adam Dunn brings to the table.

I don't care HOW the runs are produced, as long as they are produced.

OPS creates and produces runs at the best measurable direct result of performance. You can argue until you are blue in the face about how Defense and Speed in the Field prevents them and Speed creates them on the base pathx, but every available metric shows that OPS is the quicker and more direct way to produce them, and is cheaper to obtain. The GREATEST Defender in LF versus the WORST Defender in LF can be made up in about 50 points of OPS.

That's why Carl Crawford, for all his Speed, Defense, hitting for average, ability to "not clog the bases" still is a 2+ LOSS in the W-L column when compared to Adam Dunn.

If it makes you "feel better" to have runs produced by taking more outs to get it done with BA and speed, then you are missing the point by a WIDE margin my friend.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Fil3232
07-29-2008, 02:36 PM
Mrs. Dunn (Bleeds),

We understand that you love Adam. That is fine. However, the intelligent Reds fans can see through some misleading statistics. Adam is what he is.
Enjoy your new home in whatever AL city you end up in.

Sincerely,
Knowledgeable Reds Fans

What an awesome post. So much unintentional comedy wrapped up in one tidy, little letter.

Intelligent Reds fans seeing through misleading stats? That's so savory.

BLEEDS
07-29-2008, 02:45 PM
As soon as you said that Votto is a downgrade defensively, I stopped reading.

Why? Because the Truth hurts? Using more than the "EYE TEST" is required to see beyond your bias.



You keep asking for us to name replacements, but that's all past production right? I mean, did you see Josh Hamilton doing what he's doing this year? Could you have predicted a Jose Guillen from a few years back, producing as he did? Even a Jeff Keppinger (pre-injury)?

If your suggestion is to take a flier on a lump of coal and hope he turns into a diamond, we've been trying that for 10 years and produced exactly ONE diamond - Hamilton, which we flipped for pitching.

Otherwise, what is your solution - don't worry about replacing the production, it will "MAGICALLY" appear out of the thin air because of batting average, speed, and "hustle" ?!?!?



What if the Reds got an upcoming LF for Dunn in a trade... a Kemp or someone like that. Then his entire salary could be used to get the FA starter. And PS I don't think Lowe will command what you're saying. He's top of the second tier of FAs. But I respect that my estimate was low.

But still... would you prefer Kemp and Lowe in 2009 or Dunn? As an example.


I like Kemp - as a CF-er, not as a LF-er. That is a good suggestion for Dunn.

However, that is assuming we have something to trade LA that is not on our roster currently - and then we still are short a LF-er and about 30 runs...

Lowe is still a pipe dream, since we aren't winning any bidding war for his services, you mention it like its even a REMOTE possibility, which it isn't. Again, given his past 3 years, he's a Top Tier FA, and Boras is his Agent. 'Nuf said.

Bottom line, we had a chance to trade for a pitcher like Harden/Haren/etc, in this past off-season, but balked at it. Now there are no real alternatives in FA.

Luckily the GM an Owner are not as short-sighted as you all, and they have stated they actually WANT TO WIN, even though they only 1/2-way did it this past off-season.

They are going to have to make HUGE moves this off-season to get us anywhere near contender status, and that is IFF they keep Dunn. Without him, it's a near impossibility - unless they plan to spend OVER $100M in payroll for next year AND deplete our Farm system in order to win in 2009-2011.

Dunn is the easiest way to ensure SOME sort of stability and PROVEN PRODUCTION to this lineup of young, unproven as of yet, CORE talent in EE, BP, Votto, Bruce - to go along with the last three years of Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero and the first 2-3 NON-Arbitration years of Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, etc..

If they don't secure MORE offense as well as MORE pitching this off-season, they won't get over the hump. They can't afford to merely swap one for the other and stand pat, and the options in FA cannot make up for the loss of Dunn without making multiple acquisitions and trades, which would basically bankrupt our Farm system. However, that is what Jocketty was known for, so we may be going down that route regardless.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Nasty_Boy
07-29-2008, 02:50 PM
I thought Reds fans were big on winning... what has JP done that is so worth while in Toronto? He has 120+ mil payroll and he can't get the job done. He's been on the job for about 6-7 years, and what has he accomplished? Sounds like the guy I want running my team.

Eric Davis
07-29-2008, 02:52 PM
Do you understand why the current lineup is so pitiful?

Did i not explain that?? You need a translator?

Fil3232
07-29-2008, 02:57 PM
Did i not explain that?? You need a translator?

Maybe.

The only thing I was able to pick out of your last post was your disdain for Dunn, which doesn't answer the question why the Reds lineup is so pitiful.

BLEEDS
07-29-2008, 02:58 PM
Sounds like the guy I want ruining my team.

Fixed it for ya...


That guy is a perfect example of a Fantasy Baseball Geek GM clueless about how to evaluate talent - and with $120M in Payroll can't produce a winner as hard solid evidence.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
07-29-2008, 03:23 PM
He's a 30/90/90 guy.. and yes, he has more speed on the basepath.. not a blazer.. but a little more.. and he would be far cheaper..

Ahhhorsepoo
07-29-2008, 03:33 PM
Votto played 40 of 542 games in LF in the minors, with a .961 Fielding Percentage. Let me guess - your EYES didn't tell you that??!?!

I don't think baseball is a game of Home Run Derby - it's a game of RUN DERBY, and "guys like you" want to get these "imaginary" cheap and readily available .300 hitters with speed to play small ball in a BandBox to the tune of 30-40+ NEGATIVE runs versus what Adam Dunn brings to the table.

I don't care HOW the runs are produced, as long as they are produced.

OPS creates and produces runs at the best measurable direct result of performance. You can argue until you are blue in the face about how Defense and Speed in the Field prevents them and Speed creates them on the base pathx, but every available metric shows that OPS is the quicker and more direct way to produce them, and is cheaper to obtain. The GREATEST Defender in LF versus the WORST Defender in LF can be made up in about 50 points of OPS.

That's why Carl Crawford, for all his Speed, Defense, hitting for average, ability to "not clog the bases" still is a 2+ LOSS in the W-L column when compared to Adam Dunn.

If it makes you "feel better" to have runs produced by taking more outs to get it done with BA and speed, then you are missing the point by a WIDE margin my friend.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

You lost all credibility when you only referred to the reported fielding percentage about how good he is.. you obviously don't care about the balls other fielders would get to, but the guys with the higher fielding percentage is always better..

Do you know what baseball is?

through 42 games Edgar Gonzalez has a fielding percentage higher than B-Phill.. guess he is far better then right? ohh wait though if you watched any of the SD series you would see that guy gets to less balls than a 500 lb woman at a bar..

Sorry but speed both in the field and on the base path makes many plays go the other way.. and saves runs for your team..

BLEEDS, you need to actually watch games to comment on what you are talking about..

BLEEDS
07-29-2008, 03:48 PM
You lost all credibility when you only referred to the reported fielding percentage about how good he is.. you obviously don't care about the balls other fielders would get to, but the guys with the higher fielding percentage is always better..

Do you know what baseball is?

through 42 games Edgar Gonzalez has a fielding percentage higher than B-Phill.. guess he is far better then right? ohh wait though if you watched any of the SD series you would see that guy gets to less balls than a 500 lb woman at a bar..

Sorry but speed both in the field and on the base path makes many plays go the other way.. and saves runs for your team..

BLEEDS, you need to actually watch games to comment on what you are talking about..

that was just one stat I listed. I also READ what the REDS said and reported about him. He stunk. PERIOD. End of Discussion.

If you want a stat analysis, go read the ORG threads about it, they've broken it down a 1,000 ways from Sunday, and not one shread of data nor "eyeball" analysis has it in Votto's favor.

Go back to your hole now Pooh.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

redsfanmia
07-29-2008, 05:11 PM
I watched Votto in left field last year 3 games in AAA and he is adequate out there maybe a little better than Dunn but not much.

Ahhhorsepoo
07-29-2008, 05:22 PM
RedsFan.. you grow on me more and more..

Bleeds doesn't do anything on his own, he must wait for others who some are as credible about baseball as they are about congressional hearings.. to tell him about others.. he cant watch dunn and realize that "metrics" that have him in the top half of NL outfielders are completely wrong..

BLEEDS
07-29-2008, 05:53 PM
Yes, 3 games from a fan should be more credible than the Reds Management who watched him in probably all 40 games in LF.

Silly me, I'll take redsfans "MAYBE he's a little better than Dunn" as gospel.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Eric Davis
07-29-2008, 06:00 PM
Yes, 3 games from a fan should be more credible than the Reds Management who watched him in probably all 40 games in LF.

Silly me, I'll take redsfans "MAYBE he's a little better than Dunn" as gospel.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Basically all you're doing is saying the same things but from the other side of the fence. I must've missed the press conference where the Reds announced Joey Votto is a terrible left fielder. Because it didn't happen. Adam Dunn is a terrible outfielder. There are no other ways around that. Joey wouldn't be winning a gold glove either but I surely believe he would track down quite a few more balls than Shrek could. You can argue Dunn's offensive numbers all day long and most will admit they are impressive... just not good enough to eat up 25% of the payroll. But to sit here and try to claim he's a good outfielder is just mind numbing.

BLEEDS
07-29-2008, 06:21 PM
Basically all you're doing is saying the same things but from the other side of the fence. I must've missed the press conference where the Reds announced Joey Votto is a terrible left fielder. Because it didn't happen. Adam Dunn is a terrible outfielder. There are no other ways around that. Joey wouldn't be winning a gold glove either but I surely believe he would track down quite a few more balls than Shrek could. You can argue Dunn's offensive numbers all day long and most will admit they are impressive... just not good enough to eat up 25% of the payroll. But to sit here and try to claim he's a good outfielder is just mind numbing.


Where to begin? - how about a Reading Comprehension class for you?

I never said Dunn was a GOOD outfielder, just that when they tried Votto out in LF, he was even worse. That's just what the Team, Coaches, Managers, Trainers and such from the Reds said, I know it isn't as valid as HorsePoo and some guy who saw Votto play in 3 games last year in AAA, and the fact that you "surely believe" he would be better.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I(heart)Freel
07-29-2008, 06:28 PM
Where to begin? - how about a Reading Comprehension class for you?

I never said Dunn was a GOOD outfielder, just that when they tried Votto out in LF, he was even worse. That's just what the Team, Coaches, Managers, Trainers and such from the Reds said, I know it isn't as valid as HorsePoo and some guy who saw Votto play in 3 games last year in AAA, and the fact that you "surely believe" he would be better.

PEACE

-BLEEDS


You're all about asking for proof from us... do you mind throwing a little our way?

redsfanmia
07-29-2008, 06:34 PM
Yes, 3 games from a fan should be more credible than the Reds Management who watched him in probably all 40 games in LF.

Silly me, I'll take redsfans "MAYBE he's a little better than Dunn" as gospel.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Actually all I meant was that its not like he spikes himself out there. The guy could play Left as well as Dunn he would not be an upgrade and if he is an upgrade it would not be by much.

I(heart)Freel
07-29-2008, 07:11 PM
Tex to Angels, reportedly.

Is this the first domino that leads to a Dunn deal?

redhawk61
07-29-2008, 07:13 PM
Tex to Angels, reportedly.

Is this the first domino that leads to a Dunn deal?
Maybe the D-Back's will start making some good offers for Dunn since he is the last "impact" bat left, as I don't see Manny being moved.

BLEEDS
07-30-2008, 01:29 AM
You're all about asking for proof from us... do you mind throwing a little our way?

I posted his Fielding Percentage.

I also said that there are ZILLIONS of threads about it in the ORG where they discussed ZONE rating and all that stuff, as well as insight into quotes from Staff saying he was a disaster/etc out there, so they moved him to 1st.

Other than that, I've got your guys' opinions. I've read the arguments and analysis, it's there, go find it yourself if you care to look. I've already stated it's out there and posted one.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
07-30-2008, 01:40 AM
Tex to Angels, reportedly.

Is this the first domino that leads to a Dunn deal?

No, but now we can REALLY have a shot at the Juan Rivera guy, he's like WAY down the depth chart now...

:rolleyes:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
07-30-2008, 10:34 AM
Bleeds have you looked into anything about the guy at all?! when he starts he produces..

ORG said you can't argue anymore.. guess that means you should stop....

Nasty_Boy
07-30-2008, 11:03 AM
Produces? Yea, I bet he brings 100+ RBIs, 100+ runs, 100+ walks, and a 900+ OPS... Oh, I forgot he doesn't. But by God he'll hit .281 and play average defense. In all 120 games he plays because he can't stay healthy.

BLEEDS
07-30-2008, 12:59 PM
Bleeds have you looked into anything about the guy at all?! when he starts he produces..


Maybe you got it backwards - when he produces, he starts.

Why doesn't he start?
If he's SOOOO good, I mean a .300+ hitter with Power, Speed and Defense. Surely the LAA aren't that stupid to just put this kind of gem in the doghouse?!?! And SURELY they wouldn't make a trade for a Left Handed Power hitting, .900 OPS guy to, um, UPGRADE their team at 1B/OF - you know the same position this STUD Rivera plays?!?? Couldn't be!!

or maybe, JUST MAYBE, this guy had ONE year, 2 years ago, where he hit over .300 for the ONLY time in his career that he had over 400 AB"s in a single season?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Mutaman
07-30-2008, 01:13 PM
I've had enough of the Dunn Era. Thanks for the memories Adam but it's time for a change. I'm tired of losing.

Ahhhorsepoo
07-30-2008, 01:31 PM
Maybe you got it backwards - when he produces, he starts.

Why doesn't he start?
If he's SOOOO good, I mean a .300+ hitter with Power, Speed and Defense. Surely the LAA aren't that stupid to just put this kind of gem in the doghouse?!?! And SURELY they wouldn't make a trade for a Left Handed Power hitting, .900 OPS guy to, um, UPGRADE their team at 1B/OF - you know the same position this STUD Rivera plays?!?? Couldn't be!!

or maybe, JUST MAYBE, this guy had ONE year, 2 years ago, where he hit over .300 for the ONLY time in his career that he had over 400 AB"s in a single season?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I didnt say he would hit 300..

.280 would be fine.. with 25 or 30 homers.. 90 runs and rbis.. and for 5 mil a year.. FAR better spent than 16-18 mil on a guy who will produce 15 or 20 more runs for the year..

Willits also is in that logjam up there.. unfortunately he has a place on a team, much like hopper.. no power, but pure speed..