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View Full Version : Bronson Arroyo vs. Kyle Lohse (2008)



savafan
07-28-2008, 07:00 PM
Arroyo


Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
2008 31 CIN NL 9 7 22 22 0 0 0 0 119.0 142 81 74 21 42 104 4 3 537 0 0 5.60 4.51 81 1.546

Lohse


Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
2008 29 STL NL 12 3 23 23 0 0 0 0 139.3 145 60 57 12 32 72 2 1 580 0 0 3.68 4.26 116 1.270

I love having Arroyo on the Reds, but I seriously think they made a mistake by not beating the Cardinals offer of 1 year at $4.25 million. Consider how much better this pitching staff would look with Lohse in place of Josh Fogg. Consider the money still being wasted on non-performers like Stanton and Cormier, and you begin to see the failure of Wayne Krivsky as GM become clearer and clearer. If money had been spent more wisely, and maximizing roster spots, this team had most of the pieces to be competitive (if they could overcome horrible line-up construction by the high priced manager).

BuckeyeRedleg
07-28-2008, 07:04 PM
Could have nearly paid all of Lohse's salary for what they are paying Dusty Baker.

Pathetically sad.

OnBaseMachine
07-28-2008, 07:05 PM
IMO Lohse's numbers would a lot worse had he pitched this season with the Reds. He's got a terrible 4.65 K/9, which means he relies heavily on his defense, and we all know how awful the Reds defense is. Throw is the smaller ballpark along with bad defense and a low K rate and his ERA would probably be right around where it was last season.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-28-2008, 07:06 PM
IMO Lohse's numbers would a lot worse had he pitched this season with the Reds. He's got a terrible 4.65 K/9, which means he relies heavily on his defense, and we all know how awful the Reds defense is. Throw is the smaller ballpark along with bad defense and a low K rate and his ERA would probably be right around where it was last season.

Which would be okay by me.

CTA513
07-28-2008, 07:08 PM
Lohse wouldn't have the pitching coach or defense with the Reds that he has with the Cardinals.

redsrule2500
07-28-2008, 07:50 PM
Could have nearly paid all of Lohse's salary for what they are paying Dusty Baker.

Pathetically sad.

This is true. :(

But it's also true that Lohse would have been terrible if he stayed with the Reds. I just get that feeling that it's one of those "can't be good w/ the Reds" scenarios. Ryan Dempster seems to come to mind. blah.

savafan
07-28-2008, 07:52 PM
Dempster was injured almost the entire time he was in a Reds uniform

Topcat
07-28-2008, 07:55 PM
Um this is the same Kyle Lohse that was literally burned at the stake every time he started as a Red ?

BuckeyeRedleg
07-28-2008, 08:00 PM
Um this is the same Kyle Lohse that was literally burned at the stake every time he started as a Red ?

Lohse would....

-get lit up 1/3 of the time.
-look average 1/3 of the time.
-pitch like Cy Young 1/3 of the time.

All in all, he was pretty decent. The starts he got lit up bothered some people, but he more than made up for it by being lights out 1/3 of the time.

He was better than Arroyo last year (as a Red) and he's better this year.

If an organization can see fit to blow nearly 7 million dollars on Dusty Baker and Corey Patterson, paying Kyle Lohse 4-5 million seems like a no-brainer.

PuffyPig
07-28-2008, 08:03 PM
[QUOTE=savafan;1704667I love having Arroyo on the Reds, but I seriously think they made a mistake by not beating the Cardinals offer of 1 year at $4.25 million. [/QUOTE]

Couldn't you say the same thing about the other 29 teams who failed to sign Lohse.

Loohse was signed by the Cards during spring training when it became apparent that Mulder and Clement weren't coming back anytime soon.

Shouldn't we have drafted Pujols too?

There was nothing going into the year that suggested we should sign Lohse for that kind of money.

savafan
07-28-2008, 08:06 PM
There was nothing going into the year that suggested we should sign Lohse for that kind of money.

Lack of 5 strong starting pitchers is enough for me.

PuffyPig
07-28-2008, 08:19 PM
Lack of 5 strong starting pitchers is enough for me.

29 other teams could say the same thing. pretty much every and any day of the week.

Patrick Bateman
07-28-2008, 08:24 PM
IMO Lohse's numbers would a lot worse had he pitched this season with the Reds. He's got a terrible 4.65 K/9, which means he relies heavily on his defense, and we all know how awful the Reds defense is. Throw is the smaller ballpark along with bad defense and a low K rate and his ERA would probably be right around where it was last season.

I agree with this. He would have helped, and been an obvious improvement over Fogg/others, and could have been bought with some of the wasted money.... but moves like these would not have been enough to make us a legit contender.

The underlying problems with this team starts with the starting eight. We can't hit. We can't field. You'd be hard pressed to collectively find a worse starting 8 based on this season's production on another team. A shot at .500 could have been had with some nice extra moves, but this team has some huge holes at the most important positions.

Rojo
07-28-2008, 08:28 PM
How could he be worth over $4mil when he wasn't worth Zach Ward?

redsrule2500
07-28-2008, 08:35 PM
I agree that Lohse was either brilliant or terrible last year...inconsistent is an understatement!

savafan
07-28-2008, 08:37 PM
The underlying problems with this team starts with the starting eight. We can't hit. We can't field. You'd be hard pressed to collectively find a worse starting 8 based on this season's production on another team. A shot at .500 could have been had with some nice extra moves, but this team has some huge holes at the most important positions.

I'll agree that the defense has been bad, but I think the starting eight offensively could have been better utilized with better line-up construction. When your 6-8 hitters are producing more than your 3-5 hitters, then maybe the line-up should be shaken up some, but Dusty just kept putting the same line-up out there every single day and expected different results.

kaldaniels
07-28-2008, 08:42 PM
How did Bronson Arroyo get in this discussion.

With what we knew, I can see the argument going into this year that to sign Loshe would be a decent idea for the right price. Thats fair and many people suggested that. (I say no way he would have had the same sucess with the Reds though, thats just me.)

I don't see how any argument could have been made that Loshe would have been better than Bronson Arroyo.

Patrick Bateman
07-28-2008, 08:42 PM
I'll agree that the defense has been bad, but I think the starting eight offensively could have been better utilized with better line-up construction. When your 6-8 hitters are producing more than your 3-5 hitters, then maybe the line-up should be shaken up some, but Dusty just kept putting the same line-up out there every single day and expected different results.

Dusty's line-ups have clearly been part of the problem, but either way, the black holes in C, RF, SS, and CF weren't going away. Bruce helps in CF now instead of Patterson, but he's still got a lot of work to do.

In the end, Dunn is really the Reds only plus hitter. EdE and Phillips are a tick above average starting wise, but the rest has been mediocre to extremely poor. Dusty's actions are really the cherry on top.

kaldaniels
07-28-2008, 08:46 PM
Dusty's line-ups have clearly been part of the problem, but either way, the black holes in C, RF, SS, and CF weren't going away. Bruce helps in CF now instead of Patterson, but he's still got a lot of work to do.

In the end, Dunn is really the Reds only plus hitter. EdE and Phillips are a tick above average starting wise, but the rest has been mediocre to extremely poor. Dusty's actions are really the cherry on top.

That is saying that those 2 are about the 13 or 14th best hitters at their positions in the bigs. I don't know about that. For Phillips especially, I find it hard to think there are over 10 2B that swing a better stick than him, same for EE also.

Spitball
07-28-2008, 08:50 PM
Couldn't you say the same thing about the other 29 teams who failed to sign Lohse.

Reportedly Scott Boras was seeking Gil Meche type money for Lohse, something in the five-year, $55-million range, which was ridiculous. I imagine Boras's Plan B did not include signing a one year contract to pitch in front of the Reds' defense in The Great American Ballpark.

Patrick Bateman
07-28-2008, 08:52 PM
That is saying that those 2 are about the 13 or 14th best hitters at their positions in the bigs. I don't know about that. For Phillips especially, I find it hard to think there are over 10 2B that swing a better stick than him, same for EE also.

Based on RC/27, Phillips ranks 12th (8th in OPS)... the OBP issues hurt him a lot. If used correctly in a line-up I could agree that Phillip's particular skillset could be more valuable than some others.

BTW, EdE ranks around 8th.

Considering these guys also get to play half their games in GABP, their offensive seasons haven't really been eye popping. Very nice contributors offensively, but not quite the guys to lead a top 7-8 offensive squad.

HokieRed
07-28-2008, 10:35 PM
Sun Deck has a Jayson Stark piece announcing Reds have taken Arroyo off the block. Just what most of us suspected: only the mildest interest because of his ridiculous contract. RZers may think he's a deal--league average pitcher for only 24 million over the next two years--but apparently no GM's out there shared that evaluation. If Wayne backers wonder why their man is gone, I suggest one need look no further than the contracts he handed out, effectively tying Jocketty's hands.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-28-2008, 10:38 PM
Sun Deck has a Jayson Stark piece announcing Reds have taken Arroyo off the block. Just what most of us suspected: only the mildest interest because of his ridiculous contract.

Thanks, Wayne!

Team Clark
07-28-2008, 11:32 PM
IMO Lohse's numbers would a lot worse had he pitched this season with the Reds. He's got a terrible 4.65 K/9, which means he relies heavily on his defense, and we all know how awful the Reds defense is. Throw is the smaller ballpark along with bad defense and a low K rate and his ERA would probably be right around where it was last season.

Agreed AND he has Dave Duncan.

CTA513
07-28-2008, 11:38 PM
Agreed AND he has Dave Duncan.

and Molina behind the plate.

Rojo
07-29-2008, 02:30 AM
Sun Deck has a Jayson Stark piece announcing Reds have taken Arroyo off the block. Just what most of us suspected: only the mildest interest because of his ridiculous contract. RZers may think he's a deal--league average pitcher for only 24 million over the next two years--but apparently no GM's out there shared that evaluation. If Wayne backers wonder why their man is gone, I suggest one need look no further than the contracts he handed out, effectively tying Jocketty's hands.

I'm ok not trading him. He's not hurt, he still gets the K's. There will be a market for him in the future. Kudos to WJ for not selling in a panic.

Homer Bailey
07-29-2008, 02:41 AM
Earth to Redzone. We don't have Dave Duncan. We have Dick Pole.

cumberlandreds
07-29-2008, 08:47 AM
I would only want Lohse back if Dave Duncan came with him. Otherwise,no thank you.