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View Full Version : A last appeal for Reds management to do SOMETHING



LouisvilleCARDS
07-29-2008, 07:52 PM
I keep reading how Reds management aren't "blown away" with trade offers for certain guys like Affeldt, Weathers, etc. Really, what do you EXPECT for these guys? If some of these one year players aren't traded for SOMETHING, any decent young minor leaguer, this management must be as stupid as it looks.

The year is over. We're not rallying. What is the use of keeping these one off players around? It's like if you have a yard sale on its last day, and you have all this crap you're going to throw out if someone doesn't buy. You have a tag on an old lamp to sell it for $8.00 and someone offers you $5.00, and you say "no thanks, $8.00 or nothing" and they leave. Then you throw the lamp in the trash.

Really, thats the ridiculous logic of Reds management right now. In even the most ridiculous example, say if ANYONE wanted Corey Patterson - if you offered to pay the rest of his salary for the year and traded that for a decent minor leaguer, why would you not do it? Same with other mediocre players who have salary coming to them for the rest of the year .. ::cough:: Griffey ::cough::.

Reds management doesn't seem to grasp the concept of sunk cost. If Griffey plays here the rest of the year, he's being paid. If he sits the bench, he's being paid. If he's injured, he's being paid. In all scenarios, the Reds aren't making the playoffs. So why the ridiculousness over if the guy found a place he would go to, and they wanted you to pay his salary for the rest of the year for a couple of prospects? You'll be paying it ANYWAY, with NO reward. At least this way you'll be paying for something in the future, instead of an aging player who won't help you achieve anythnig the rest of the year.

This management drives me up a wall. It seems like no one seems to grasp these simple concepts.

Griffey012
07-29-2008, 08:10 PM
Jocketty - 6 NL Central Championships, 2 NLCS Titles, 1 World Series Title
Reds during that periond - uhhhh nothing, oh yeah we had a 1 game playoff once

I am going to go ahead and trust Jocketty. Did you ever think that maybe the prospects we could get in return for our players nobody wants are not as good as the prospects we already have at those positions?

LouisvilleCARDS
07-29-2008, 08:15 PM
Jocketty - 6 NL Central Championships, 2 NLCS Titles, 1 World Series Title
Reds during that periond - uhhhh nothing, oh yeah we had a 1 game playoff once

I am going to go ahead and trust Jocketty. Did you ever think that maybe the prospects we could get in return for our players nobody wants are not as good as the prospects we already have at those positions?

Did you even read what I posted? Why, under any circumstance, would you take NOTHING versus SOMETHING. If you can explain that to me, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona you might be interested in.

Griffey012
07-29-2008, 08:23 PM
Where is your proof that they can even get ANYTHING for half the players you mentioned? Would you really want to trade Weathers for a bag of baseball and not even be able to field a competitive team. Why don't we pay Dunn's, Griffey's, Weather's, Affeldt's, and Ross's salaries and trade them for 5 cases of PBR.

And if after whatever trade they can get worked out the first baseman prospect they are getting is not as good as the first base prospect we have at A ball, then it isn't really even anything your getting.

captainmorgan07
07-29-2008, 08:38 PM
Let's just not give it all away here. If your trading someone you either get value or you dump salary. The reds definitely don't need to dump salary. The pieces on this team aren't exactly being highly sough after. Doing a deal just to do a deal would be counterproductive.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-29-2008, 08:53 PM
Where is your proof that they can even get ANYTHING for half the players you mentioned? Would you really want to trade Weathers for a bag of baseball and not even be able to field a competitive team. Why don't we pay Dunn's, Griffey's, Weather's, Affeldt's, and Ross's salaries and trade them for 5 cases of PBR.

And if after whatever trade they can get worked out the first baseman prospect they are getting is not as good as the first base prospect we have at A ball, then it isn't really even anything your getting.

Unless you work in the Reds baseball office, no one knows what is truly being offered. Based on the rumors and the comments I've been reading that there's no offers that are "blowing" the Reds away for these players - well what do they expect for fairly average bullpen arms? I know in the past at least, the Reds has no problem trading extra pieces. I find it hard to beleive only a "bag of baseballs" is being offered.

If there's a young prospect who has some upside on any level, why not trade for them? I doubt they're being offered the .200 A batter or something like you make it sound. Any reasonable guys we can get for 1 year bullpen arms or starter like Fogg should be taken.

dlittle58
07-29-2008, 09:05 PM
Can anyone figure out why C-Patt is still leading off for us? I would never ever question Walt again if he could figure out a way to get Patterson out of town...

Dunnateher
07-29-2008, 09:12 PM
Affeldt and Fogg are insurance Dusty doesn't Pryorize our young arms. Johnny and Volq. both need to be shut down in a month or so.

Griffey012
07-29-2008, 09:24 PM
Unless you work in the Reds baseball office, no one knows what is truly being offered. Based on the rumors and the comments I've been reading that there's no offers that are "blowing" the Reds away for these players - well what do they expect for fairly average bullpen arms? I know in the past at least, the Reds has no problem trading extra pieces. I find it hard to beleive only a "bag of baseballs" is being offered.

If there's a young prospect who has some upside on any level, why not trade for them? I doubt they're being offered the .200 A batter or something like you make it sound. Any reasonable guys we can get for 1 year bullpen arms or starter like Fogg should be taken.

Well management is driving you nuts because they can't grip the idea of a sunk costs, so where is your insider data that tell you they aren't trying to do this with CPatt, Griffey, etc?

LouisvilleCARDS
07-29-2008, 09:42 PM
All of the Reds key trade chips -- Adam Dunn, David Weathers, David Ross, Affeldt, etc. -- seem likely to remain when Aug. 1 rolls around. The Reds haven't been too impressed with the offers they've gotten to this point.

"I don't anticipate anything, unless somebody comes along with something that'll knock your socks off," Reds manager Dusty Baker said on Sunday. "Right now, there are a lot of people wanting to take some of our guys. It's cherry picking time, and they won't give you a whole bunch back. They say, 'Well, we'll take the salary off your hands. We're going places.' But we're trying to go places, too."

Dusty's quote, not mine. Doesn't sound too much like they're trying to do anything, except overvaluing the players. I doubt many teams are trying to "knock your socks off" with an offer for fairly mediocre players. And apparently the only place we're going is to the bottom of the NL Central at this pace. Sorry - we've tried with thise players for enough time, and where have they got us? 8 games under .500. It's time to drop them and see what we can do without them.

HeatherC1212
07-29-2008, 10:00 PM
Can anyone figure out why C-Patt is still leading off for us? I would never ever question Walt again if he could figure out a way to get Patterson out of town...

Dude, it's been one game. :confused: Tonight is the first time Corey's even started a game for the Reds in quite some time. He's only playing CF tonight so Bruce can be in RF while Junior gets the night off. He'll be back on the bench tomorrow when Junior is back in the lineup.

And for the record, I'm totally on board with trading a few guys to get some pieces for the future of the team but I'm not on the boat with giving guys away and getting little value in return. Jocketty has been in this business for a long time and I trust him to make good decisions here at the deadline.

Ohioballplayer
07-29-2008, 10:35 PM
Uh Heather no, CPatt started sunday also, I was there and the whole team is ridiculous!!!

We have let other people go that have better batting avg's that .186, Dusty is keeping him here because Freel and Hopper are hurt, I am just tired of the Reds period.

tommycash
07-29-2008, 10:39 PM
I say trade anyone that doesn't fit into our plans for next year. Looking at what some people say we can get is apparently a lot less than other teams are willing to give. I remember some people on here saying we were idiots for not getting a deal done for Joe Blanton or Erik Bedard, but I bet we are all happy that didn't happen. If Walt could get deals done for Griffey, Patterson, or anyone else, I bet he would make the deal, but I bet he can't. We don't even know whether Weathers, Lincoln, and Affeldt fit into Walt's plans for next year or not. Would I like to see us deal players, only if they don't fit into our plans next year and we can get something out of them. As for Griffey, I would not give him up for nothing (ie waivers or for a prospect we know could never make the bigs) as he could retire at the end of the year and like it or not, he still brings in fans. We would have to pay his salary anyway, so why not get future operating capital from him playing. I just think, and this is my opinion, that Walt won't make any big deals until the offseason. Would I be upset if deals were made, only if it does not help us next year.

FlightRick
07-29-2008, 10:43 PM
OK, so in addition to the Irrational Dunn Haters vs. Irrational Dunn Lovers, we've now got ourselves a very special Limited Time Irrational DO SOMETHING/ANYTHING vs. Irrational Stand Pat dichotomy here at our beloved RedsZone.

Can't we just agree that there are some people in life who are stuck with this hyperactive, overstimulated Videogame Mentality, where it is not only possible, but PREFERABLE, to take any sort of random action rather than assess the actual value of that action and deem it inferior to doing nothing? And then, on the other side, can't we just agree that some people are boring and fear all change? And then shut up about it, because neither one of those two diametrically opposed sides is right, nor paying attention to the simple matter of what the Reds are actually doing?

I mean, christ, how hard is it to wrap your head around the notion that the Reds would trade almost anyone, but only if it makes the team better? That's what they're saying, that's what they're doing, and that's neither a mad dash to act nor a stubborn unwillingness to act. It's common sense.

I don't necessarily see a whole lot of value in standing pat because it gives us our best chance of continuing to win ballgames in 2008, but the truth is the "yard sale/lamp-in-the-trash" analogy is fatally flawed because this isn't "trash" we're talking about dumping. These are members of our 25 man roster who (with the possible exception of Patterson) are all deserving of their spots and superior to any in-house options we have in terms of playing time. So where are we "throwing them in the trash" if they're still here after deadline? We're putting them right back on the coffee table and continuing to use them until such time as we are not legally permitted to do so. Which beats living in a candle-illuminated house for the rest of the year, which is really what you're proposing if you just give away any member of this team for a less-than-prospect.

Also: if we do eventually have to leave our players out at curbside at the end of the year, I've yet to see the trash pick-up company that leaves you sweet, sweet draft picks behind when they come by to haul away the garbage. So that's something to consider, too.

Nobody's averse to sending our players packing if we get something for them, least of all the Reds' front office. But if that's not the kind of offers we're getting, then please explain what sense there is in making a deal that makes somebody else's team better and makes ours worse? Believe it or not, and like it or not, but that's exactly what would probably happen if we just shuttled your Griffeys or Weathers or Anybody-Not-Named-Patterson out of town at this point.


Rick

Orodle
07-29-2008, 10:50 PM
this is a stupid post by somone that doesnt know how baseball works

its obvious.....THEY ARNT GETTING OFFERED DECENT MINOR LEAGUERS FOR THESE GUYS!

Is trading Griffey or Dunn for a decent minor leaguer better than the draft picks we would recieve for them? Most likely NO

tommycash
07-29-2008, 10:51 PM
Its kind of like saying that we can get a ton of return for Dunn. I like Dunn and would personally like to see him stay, but if we could get a ton in return for him, don't you think Walt would have pulled the trigger on that by now. Unless we are going to re-sign him, which I haven't heard anything on either. I mean Texeira (sp?) was supposed to go to Arizona for Jackson/Tracy/ and an A prospect, and instead he goes to Anaheim for lesser talent. Now on XBox 360 I can get Dunn in on a lot of deals, but this aint no XBox life.

redhawk61
07-29-2008, 10:53 PM
Its kind of like saying that we can get a ton of return for Dunn. I like Dunn and would personally like to see him stay, but if we could get a ton in return for him, don't you think Walt would have pulled the trigger on that by now. Unless we are going to re-sign him, which I haven't heard anything on either. I mean Texeira (sp?) was supposed to go to Arizona for Jackson/Tracy/ and an A prospect, and instead he goes to Anaheim for lesser talent. Now on XBox 360 I can get Dunn in on a lot of deals, but this aint no XBox life.
its a shame cause I have pulled some really good deals with Dunn.

Blue
07-29-2008, 10:54 PM
Its all about draft picks. The more picks the Reds have, the more depth Walt can trade from, doing what he does best. Weathers should have never been resigned, or we'd have had two out of him. Affeldt could net one. Dunn, two.

Arroyo, however, is a guy that should have been dumped for little more than salary relief.

HeatherC1212
07-29-2008, 11:01 PM
Uh Heather no, CPatt started sunday also, I was there and the whole team is ridiculous!!!

We have let other people go that have better batting avg's that .186, Dusty is keeping him here because Freel and Hopper are hurt, I am just tired of the Reds period.

My bad. I didn't see many of the games over the weekend so I wasn't aware that he also started on Sunday. That's still only two days out of quite a few now where he's not been in the starting lineup though and I don't think it needs to be brought up like its a regular occurance. For the record, I am definitely happier when he's on the bench, LOL ;)

tommycash
07-29-2008, 11:04 PM
Its all about draft picks. The more picks the Reds have, the more depth Walt can trade from, doing what he does best. Weathers should have never been resigned, or we'd have had two out of him. Affeldt could net one. Dunn, two.

Arroyo, however, is a guy that should have been dumped for little more than salary relief.

Which is like saying we shouldn't have bought groceries with that money, we should have bought lottery tickets. With the money saved from signing those guys (Weathers and Affeldt aren't doing bad and might in the plans for next year) we could more chances at the powerball. As for Arroyo, he has been our best pitcher in the last couple of weeks. And how in the world would we get two out of Weathers and only two from Dunn. Dunn and Weathers would net two each? Anyway back to your comment on depth from the draft. I don't think our best option is to bet on the unknown. Yeah lets let Weathers and Affeldt go and trade for a couple of guys who could throw in ERAs of over 4 next year. Walt doesn't have a great track record of drafting players, he has a great talent for putting a team together that can win. I want him to do that, and as of right now, trust that he will do that for us. I don't want to trade for trades sake, or let players lie and maybe get picks from them. Make us better, but if it takes patience I can wait until the offseason.

Blue
07-29-2008, 11:16 PM
Which is like saying we shouldn't have bought groceries with that money, we should have bought lottery tickets. With the money saved from signing those guys (Weathers and Affeldt aren't doing bad and might in the plans for next year) we could more chances at the powerball.

Actually its not like that at all. For you to get anything out of your powerball tickets, you have to win (the prospects must turn into solid major leaguers). Prospects don't have to succeed on the major league level in order to be valuable to a team. They can be trade bait.


As for Arroyo, he has been our best pitcher in the last couple of weeks.

Oh, I hadn't noticed! I'm glad I'll get to watch his mid-5s ERA for the next two and a half years. He's worth keeping around because he's been our best pitcher for TWO WEEKS!

And how in the
world would we get two out of Weathers and only two from Dunn. Dunn and Weathers would net two each? Anyway back to your comment on depth from the draft.

You apparently don't understand how this works. Two is the maximum that you can get. You get two for Type-A free agents. Weathers was a Type-A, and Dunn will be. Two picks a piece.

tommycash
07-29-2008, 11:23 PM
And you are betting that we will get anyone in the draft worth enough to be used for trade bait.

redhawk61
07-29-2008, 11:27 PM
And you are betting that we will get anyone in the draft worth enough to be used for trade bait.
2007 draft we got Todd Fraizer(middle of the order potential) and Kyle Lotzkar(front of the rotation potential) in the supplemental rounds and those are two guys who any team would LOVE to have.

tommycash
07-29-2008, 11:28 PM
And since apparently I don't know how it works, can you show me where it worked in the past. Seriously I would like to know. If you can show me how it worked in the past I will agree with you and I will let my argument rest. I am not being sarcastic, if it has worked in the past, show me. And can you guarantee me that you can trade for two relievers better than Weathers and Affeldt, a starter better than Arroyo, and an outfielder or any hitter better than Dunn with your plan.

Blue
07-29-2008, 11:28 PM
And you are betting that we will get anyone in the draft worth enough to be used for trade bait.

Yes, and its a better bet than anything they'll get for Weathers or Affeldt, and apparently, Dunn.

tommycash
07-29-2008, 11:33 PM
2007 draft we got Todd Fraizer(middle of the order potential) and Kyle Lotzkar(front of the rotation potential) in the supplemental rounds and those are two guys who any team would LOVE to have.

I agree with you on Frazier, but Lotzkar (although he pitched well last year) has been great this year.

Blue
07-29-2008, 11:33 PM
And since apparently I don't know how it works, can you show me where it worked in the past. Seriously I would like to know. If you can show me how it worked in the past I will agree with you and I will let my argument rest. I am not being sarcastic, if it has worked in the past, show me. And can you guarantee me that you can trade for two relievers better than Weathers and Affeldt, a starter better than Arroyo, and an outfielder or any hitter better than Dunn with your plan.

Easy now, I wasn't saying you don't understand how that works, just the draft compensation thing.

But, I can almost guarantee you that the Reds have a reliever in the minor leagues RIGHT NOW better than Weathers in 1-2 years, and that there is a player in the Reds minor leagues who would perform no worse than Arroyo has this season, and those are just guys in AAA.

redhawk61
07-29-2008, 11:40 PM
I agree with you on Frazier, but Lotzkar (although he pitched well last year) has been great this year.
I'm lost with this statement, unless you ment hasn't been great this year. IN that case your still wrong

He has 48 K's in 35 innings and only 27 hits surrendered and a 3.86 ERA. The one thing he needs work on is control, but being that he is only 18 and one of the youngest players, if not the youngest, in the MWL I will take that any day of the week

tommycash
07-29-2008, 11:46 PM
I'm lost with this statement, unless you ment hasn't been great this year. IN that case your still wrong

He has 48 K's in 35 innings and only 27 hits surrendered and a 3.86 ERA. The one thing he needs work on is control, but being that he is only 18 and one of the youngest players, if not the youngest, in the MWL I will take that any day of the week

Sorry that is what I meant. My stats show that he has a 4.50 ERA this year with 30 IP and 45 strikeouts ( I like that). I got my stats from http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Kyle%20Lotzkar&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=518952. Did he pitch tonight. I would like to see what he has done after pitching over 100 IP.

redhawk61
07-29-2008, 11:50 PM
Sorry that is what I meant. My stats show that he has a 4.50 ERA this year with 30 IP and 45 strikeouts ( I like that). I got my stats from http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Kyle%20Lotzkar&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=518952. Did he pitch tonight. I would like to see what he has done after pitching over 100 IP.
Yeah he pitched tonight, stats not updated. He went 5 innings with 3 BB's 3 K's only 2 Hits and 0ER's

tommycash
07-29-2008, 11:52 PM
I checked and he did pitch tonight. I still don't think he is a top level prospect yet. And he is probably 3 years away from being major league ready. Does that mean that another team would want him right now in return for someone better than Weathers or Affeldt, I don't know. That was the argument I was having with Blue. Can we get better players next year for the picks we will get from letting Dunn, Weathers, Affeldt go? Can we get someone better than Arroyo in those deals as well? As for Todd Frazier, I would think we would want to keep him around and not trade him for better players.

thatcoolguy_22
07-29-2008, 11:57 PM
I checked and he did pitch tonight. I still don't think he is a top level prospect yet. And he is probably 3 years away from being major league ready. Does that mean that another team would want him right now in return for someone better than Weathers or Affeldt, I don't know. That was the argument I was having with Blue. Can we get better players next year for the picks we will get from letting Dunn, Weathers, Affeldt go? Can we get someone better than Arroyo in those deals as well? As for Todd Frazier, I would think we would want to keep him around and not trade him for better players.


what?

ChatterRed
07-30-2008, 12:04 AM
If I were Walt, I'd just make announcement that says, we have no quality offers for any players, so we will more than likely stand pat unless something changes, and we are fine with that.

Then other clubs will know to either pony up or move on.

tommycash
07-30-2008, 12:07 AM
what?

What do you mean what? I was talking about Kyle Lotzkar, who was mentioned in a previous post as someone who the Reds received in the supplemental draft in the past. I was arguing the fact that he is a top level prospect in the organization and that if we traded him in the offseason (which was suggested that he would be bait) would we get better players than Weathers, Affeldt or Dunn. I think our best interests are to win next year and finding relievers that keep their ERAs in the 3's (like Weathers and Affeldt) is hard to do. Don't just say what. Tell me what I need to clarify for you and I will do it. And on Dunn, we need to re-sign him, and if we can't trade him for anything valuable or cannot re-sign, I welcome the 2 picks we would get for him. I don't think those two picks will help us next year at all though.

As for an earlier question on my knowledge,I guess I was thrown off earlier when I heard that Weathers and Dunn are considered the same type of free agent. I did not know Weathers would have been a type-A free agent.

thatcoolguy_22
07-30-2008, 12:13 AM
If I were Walt, I'd just make announcement that says, we have no quality offers for any players, so we will more than likely stand pat unless something changes, and we are fine with that.

Then other clubs will know to either pony up or move on.

Walt Jocketty answered questions also:
On potential trades:" "Nothing close. We've had a lot of conversations. I still think clubs are looking. But if something's going to happen, it will probably be close to the deadline. I've been making calls.

"If we're going to make a trade and take someone away from our club, it's going to have to for someone who will help us for the future."


I believe he just did ;)

tommycash
07-30-2008, 12:17 AM
Walt Jocketty answered questions also:
Nn potential trades:" "Nothing close. We've had a lot of conversations. I still think clubs are looking. But if something's going to happen, it will probably be close to the deadline. I've been making calls.

"If we're going to make a trade and take someone away from our club, it's going to have to for someone who will help us for the future."


I believe he just did ;)

What?

Aces Wild
07-30-2008, 12:21 AM
As for Todd Frazier, I would think we would want to keep him around and not trade him for better players.



I believe that was what left him scratching his head..........and me scratching mine for that matter.

thatcoolguy_22
07-30-2008, 12:25 AM
I believe that was what left him scratching his head..........and me scratching mine for that matter.
:D

tommycash
07-30-2008, 12:32 AM
2007 draft we got Todd Fraizer(middle of the order potential) and Kyle Lotzkar(front of the rotation potential) in the supplemental rounds and those are two guys who any team would LOVE to have.

The Frazier comment was in conjunction with another argument I was in, as Fraizer and Lotzkar were two names brought up in who the reds got in previous supplemental drafts. I was referencing his comment on Lotzkar when I said I don't think he is a top level minor leaguer (who would yield type A players in a trade) and I was referencing his comment about Todd Frazier when I said I would think that most would want to keep him around as he will help us out in the future. I thought I was being clear to the people I was arguing with.(Blue and RedHawk). If not I apologize. My argument is that we should build for next year and by relying on the supplemental draft, we will not be better next year. Also, by trading those players I don't think we can get better players than those we are letting go.

tommycash
07-30-2008, 12:33 AM
Usually when I post I try to read the entire thread. Which if you would have that might have helped you understand what I was saying.

Slyder
07-30-2008, 12:35 AM
this is a stupid post by somone that doesnt know how baseball works

its obvious.....THEY ARNT GETTING OFFERED DECENT MINOR LEAGUERS FOR THESE GUYS!

Is trading Griffey or Dunn for a decent minor leaguer better than the draft picks we would recieve for them? Most likely NO

With the season he's had if Griffey gets compensation back for us Ill print off this thread and eat it. He wont bring uss back anything, get him out of town and see what the in house options have.

thatcoolguy_22
07-30-2008, 12:39 AM
With the season he's had if Griffey gets compensation back for us Ill print off this thread and eat it. He wont bring uss back anything, get him out of town and see what the in house options have.

we can not get compensation for griffey. We have a team option available for him and will not be offering him arbitration.

However his value for draft picks would be determined over his last 2 seasons not just this one. And on a sidenote the fielding stats play a minimal role in categorizing the type of return you receive.

Slyder
07-30-2008, 12:46 AM
we can not get compensation for griffey. We have a team option available for him and will not be offering him arbitration.

However his value for draft picks would be determined over his last 2 seasons not just this one. And on a sidenote the fielding stats play a minimal role in categorizing the type of return you receive.


Over the last 2 seasons going into tonight (please note I didnt go into too much detail on stats someone who knows the intricies can):
BA: .264
HR: 44
RBI: 143

Pardon me while I dont get all giddy as to actually expect that 22 hrs per year gets us something.

Blue
07-30-2008, 12:52 AM
we can not get compensation for griffey. We have a team option available for him and will not be offering him arbitration.

We wouldn't get compensation for him anyway, but unless the new CBA changed the rule, you can decline to exercise an option and offer the player arbitration anyway. That's what the Reds did with Rich Aurilia.

On second look, maybe you're saying that the Reds would under no circumstances risk that he would accept arbitration.

Anyway, as far as I know, you can decline an option and then offer arbitration.

LouisvilleCARDS
07-30-2008, 01:40 AM
I wasn't referring to Dunn when I made this thread, but I don't see what keeping Weathers, Affeldt, Ross, and whoever else is a core player on the team does anything beneficial. The team is in the crapper. No, we won't be getting top prospects, but if there's a player out there with an upside like a Darryl Thompson or something who mgiht be undervalued - why not add them and take a shot?

Kingspoint
07-30-2008, 02:23 AM
Jocketty - 6 NL Central Championships, 2 NLCS Titles, 1 World Series Title
Reds during that periond - uhhhh nothing, oh yeah we had a 1 game playoff once



All purchased with Tens of Millions of dollars through Free Agency or players that were on the verge of Free Agency that commanded top dollar and he traded for them. He does not have a reputation for identifying and finding younger talent in exchange for current major league players, such as Krivsky did. This is the situation that the REDS are in. He's proving right now that he still does not have a reputation for doing so.

I'm very pleased though with how he's handling the current pitching situations of Harang and Thompson and Bailey.

kpresidente
07-30-2008, 09:07 AM
Do something?

I hope they don't do anything.

Jack Burton
07-30-2008, 09:55 AM
First thing, dump Griffey the cancer to any AL team that is stupid enough to take him. Next, fire the entire coaching staff. They have made a mockery of this once great franchise long enough.

Griffey012
07-30-2008, 09:55 AM
All purchased with Tens of Millions of dollars through Free Agency or players that were on the verge of Free Agency that commanded top dollar and he traded for them. He does not have a reputation for identifying and finding younger talent in exchange for current major league players, such as Krivsky did. This is the situation that the REDS are in. He's proving right now that he still does not have a reputation for doing so.

I'm very pleased though with how he's handling the current pitching situations of Harang and Thompson and Bailey.

I'll agree with you there, but many times his bigger free agent acquisitions were very productive in the Cards Uni, and they were typically 1 or 2 pieces away and he was a buyer instead of a seller. He did pluck Wainwright for J.D. Drew. Drafted Drew, Pujols, traded not much for a young Renteria, drafted Matt Morris, but the key thing is that Jocketty never gets the bad side of a trade or if so it rarely happens. He gets rid of and acquires guys at the right time for the right packages.

So to judge him and say he doesn't have the knack for young talent is a little extreme, he was always in a win now mode in St. Louis with good teams, and never gave up good young talent outside of Dan Haren. He also typically didn't overpay and hang onto players too long, something Krivsky liked to do. And in retrospect, most of Krivsky's moves for good young talent involvedpicking up players for nothin ala Phillips, Keppinger, etc. His deadline dishoffs haven't brought much successful young talent, but the jury is still out on some of the players.

kpresidente
07-30-2008, 10:11 AM
All purchased with Tens of Millions of dollars through Free Agency or players that were on the verge of Free Agency that commanded top dollar and he traded for them. He does not have a reputation for identifying and finding younger talent in exchange for current major league players, such as Krivsky did. This is the situation that the REDS are in. He's proving right now that he still does not have a reputation for doing so.

I'm very pleased though with how he's handling the current pitching situations of Harang and Thompson and Bailey.

Looking at things with my rose-colored glasses on, I'd say the transition from WK to Jocketty was perfect timing. WK did have a nose finding hidden talent. He came from being an assistant GM, where his job was probably to scour the bottom of the barrel while his boss handled the real negotiations. And I think he did a pretty good job of stocking the organization with decent talent. We have a ton of great role-players and B-grade prospects.

But WK floundered when it came to FA acquisitions and extensions. The only one that worked out from him so far was Phillips, and he hasn't hit his payday yet. We'll revisit it in a couple years when he's making $10M+.

Now, though, we need better talent at the top end, and Jocketty is probably as good a guy as any to be pulling those strings, based on his record in STL.

Fon Duc Tow
07-30-2008, 10:48 AM
You know what is interesting...

Patterson batting leadoff and Griffey in the 3 spot were two BIG reasons why the Reds were in the basement for most of the first half.

Dusty has said as much that Griffey is batting 3rd "out of respect for Junior."

So, in a way, this 2008 season is in the toilet "out of respect for Junior."

Thanks Dusty!

TheBigLebowski
07-30-2008, 11:00 AM
Don't use the fact that WJ had some pretty good amounts of cash at his disposal in STL as a perjorative. There are plenty of GM's who have had plenty of money to work with who still found ways to lose and lose big. Money can't necessarily buy success anymore. You still need sound baseball knowledge and you still need a plan.