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Cyclone792
07-29-2008, 10:50 PM
Ineptitude continues to scale the mountain.


W L pct p-wins p-losses p-pct Runs RA Diff Runs/G RA/G

2001 66 96 .407 69 93 .428 735 850 -115 4.54 5.25
2002 78 84 .481 74 88 .456 709 774 -65 4.38 4.78
2003 69 93 .426 62 100 .380 694 886 -192 4.28 5.47
2004 76 86 .469 66 96 .406 750 907 -157 4.63 5.60
2005 73 89 .451 74 88 .460 820 889 -69 5.06 5.49
2006 80 82 .494 76 86 .466 749 801 -52 4.62 4.94
2007 72 90 .444 74 88 .457 783 853 -70 4.83 5.27
2008 50 58 .463 47 61 .431 467 537 -70 4.32 4.97

TOTAL 564 678 .454 541 701 .436 5707 6497 -790 4.60 5.23
We're pretty much now looking at the 3rd worst stretch in franchise history for this organization; only the early 30s and the late 40s/early 50s were worse. In fact, the last time the Reds were this bad for this long they were an all white team and hadn't yet integrated. And if this organization doesn't improve pretty quickly over the next few years, then they're in danger of launching themselves into the worst stretch in franchise history.

The Reds are 114 games below .500 since beginning the 2001 season
The Reds have averaged a 74-88 record since beginning the 2001 season
The Reds have been outscored by 790 runs since beginning the 2001 season

Congrats go out to everybody in the Reds organization who have contributed to such a run.

KronoRed
07-29-2008, 11:01 PM
It's good to witness history.

LvJ
07-29-2008, 11:05 PM
Too much stress for this young soul.

RosieRed
07-29-2008, 11:07 PM
Well, when you put it that way ...


I can't even come up with anything. I didn't realize it was that bad. Good reality check though.

Razor Shines
07-29-2008, 11:14 PM
Thanks, Cyclone. Would you like to take a dull drill bit to my knee caps next?

RedsManRick
07-29-2008, 11:17 PM
Have no fear. The current management wants to win.

KronoRed
07-29-2008, 11:21 PM
Have no fear. The current management wants to win.

The losing stops now.

WVRedsFan
07-29-2008, 11:21 PM
The Reds are 114 games below .500 since beginning the 2001 season
The Reds have averaged a 74-88 record since beginning the 2001 season
The Reds have been outscored by 790 runs since beginning the 2001 season

I was looking at this just last night. It's scary. What's scarier, is I don't see the end of it. The bully is better, but we still need a starter or two. We have a team of hackers who have no idea how to work a count. We lack intelligent hitters. I just have to feel we're going to have to import some maturity to this squad and hire management that has the guts to make players be more patient at the plate.

When you average scoring 4.59 and giving up 5.23 runs per game for the 8 year period, but have fallen to 4.32 you've got a problem. Over the 8 year period, the Reds were being outscored by .64 runs per game. This year, it's .65. Progress? Hardly.

It might be hopeless unless some personnel changes are made over the winter. Big ones.

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2008, 12:25 AM
Clearly the problem is Adam Dunn and his lack of hustle.

Johnny Footstool
07-30-2008, 12:35 AM
Anyone have a chart of the major-league pitching talent (or any major-league players, for that matter) drafted and developed by the Reds during that timeframe?

REDREAD
07-30-2008, 12:37 AM
Congrats go out to everybody in the Reds organization who have contributed to such a run.

:lol: Great ending line.

That's what happens when you have someone like John Allen running the team into the ground.

HokieRed
07-30-2008, 12:45 AM
End of the losing has to come with some honest evaluation of the talent. Adam Dunn is definitely not the problem. Handing out long term contracts, even to the greatest players, is a problem because you lose flexibility; everything has to be organized around your long-term guys. The last GM was a significant part of the problem, but now at least somebody with a legitimate record of success is on board. The talent is not as good as many think, even the young ones. The best talent--by far--was traded away. time to start facing up. 90 losses this year, maybe we can get that down to 85 by next. Contention is several years away.

redsmetz
07-30-2008, 05:41 AM
End of the losing has to come with some honest evaluation of the talent. Adam Dunn is definitely not the problem. Handing out long term contracts, even to the greatest players, is a problem because you lose flexibility; everything has to be organized around your long-term guys. The last GM was a significant part of the problem, but now at least somebody with a legitimate record of success is on board. The talent is not as good as many think, even the young ones. The best talent--by far--was traded away. time to start facing up. 90 losses this year, maybe we can get that down to 85 by next. Contention is several years away.

The gratuitous knocks on "the last GM" are sometimes just breathtaking, even laughable. Krivsky's record was around .463, slightly better the overall percentage shown. That judgement just can't be made from this persepective (nor can it be said about Dan O'Brien at this juncture). There's just not enough data to say that. WK's draft classes are still still in A ball, for the most part. His successor, he with "a legitimate record of success," has made no moves to improve the big league club so the losing can stop now.

Not to mention that this putrid record goes back before this "lost decade" and lays at far more peoples feet than just "the last GM". This isn't a defense of WK, but such sweeping statements really are an embarrasment to the tone I would expect from RZ. When there's enough historical perspective to make that determination, come back and let us know how much of this wretchedness rests at his feet.

RedsBaron
07-30-2008, 07:03 AM
We have a team of hackers who have no idea how to work a count. We lack intelligent hitters. I just have to feel we're going to have to import some maturity to this squad and hire management that has the guts to make players be more patient at the plate.



Bingo. Adam Dunn is virtually the only patient hitter the Reds have, and many Reds fans, lead by the local media, want to run Dunn out of town. I sometimes think a lot of Reds fans and leaders have never even heard of on base percentage.

princeton
07-30-2008, 07:38 AM
only two and a half years to go :thumbup:

cumberlandreds
07-30-2008, 08:05 AM
The gratuitous knocks on "the last GM" are sometimes just breathtaking, even laughable. Krivsky's record was around .463, slightly better the overall percentage shown. That judgement just can't be made from this persepective (nor can it be said about Dan O'Brien at this juncture). There's just not enough data to say that. WK's draft classes are still still in A ball, for the most part. His successor, he with "a legitimate record of success," has made no moves to improve the big league club so the losing can stop now.

Not to mention that this putrid record goes back before this "lost decade" and lays at far more peoples feet than just "the last GM". This isn't a defense of WK, but such sweeping statements really are an embarrasment to the tone I would expect from RZ. When there's enough historical perspective to make that determination, come back and let us know how much of this wretchedness rests at his feet.

The problems can even be traced back to Marge Schott and her firing of scouts because all they did was watch baseball games. I knew way back then that this franchise was in trouble and it would take many,many years to build it back, if it ever can be to a competitive level.
I do think the minor league system is back on track. There seems to be talent starting to pump through it. But depth of talent needs to be built in the minor league sytem. That will take some time though and I don't think Castellini has that type of patience.

Cyclone792
07-30-2008, 09:09 AM
Well, when you put it that way ...

I can't even come up with anything. I didn't realize it was that bad. Good reality check though.

I actually misspoke in my original post; it may only be the 4th worst stretch in franchise history. It depends on one's view on if a "winning" season in the middle disqualifies it.

Nevertheless, barring a miraculous finish to conclude 2008 the 2001-2008 run will be an eight year stretch of futility. Here are the four lousy stretches in franchise history since the beginning of World Series play:

1906-1916: total W/L record of 755-930 (.448 winning percentage) over an 11-year stretch with an average W/L record of 69-86. This stretch had one season over .500 - a 77-76 record in 1909.
1929-1937: total W/L record of 551-829 (.399 winning percentage) over a nine-year stretch with an average W/L record of 61-92. This stretch had zero seasons over .500 - a 74-80 campaign in 1936 was the best single season.
1945-1955: total W/L record of 747-945 (.441 winning percentage) over an 11-year stretch with an average W/L record of 68-86. This stretch had zero seasons over .500 - the 75-79 campaign in 1955 was the best single season.
2001-2008: in progress a total W/L record of 564-678 (.454 winning percentage). So far, the 80-82 campaign in 2006 has been the highlight.

What's interesting here are the three previous runs of futility each had a reward shortly afterward. The 1919 Reds won the World Series only a few years after digging themselves out of the dungeon. The 1939-40 Reds won a World Series and two NL Pennants after digging themselves out of the dungeon. And the 1961 Reds won an NL Pennant a half dozen years after digging themselves out of the dungeon.

HokieRed
07-30-2008, 09:14 AM
Please note I never said that WK was anything like the only problem. I would certainly agree that the franchise's problems go back to the Schott budget-cutting, to Jim Bowden's poor drafts and arrogance about his ability to conjure a pitching staff from castoffs, to a variety of decisions by O'Brien and Krivsky. But if the current GM has not been able to make the series of breath-taking moves RZers seem to want from him, I'd suggest it's because what he has to offer around is not very desirable. He's in a classic predicament: the obvious players he has to trade will bring very little more than salary relief and make the team even worse this year than it is now and the pieces he does have that will bring some value will just open up more holes to fill. I'm actually very sympathetic with WK, as I was with O'Brien--who was treated very unfarily by RZers in my view. Both were caught with a lot of bad contracts and the resulting inflexibility, trying to satisfy owners who wanted to show they were doing something now (Lindner=Milton), and thus unable to do what it was obvious to some of us needed to be done--and still needs to be done--i.e. be honest that this team is nowhere near contention and the time frame for making it so is no less than two years and very probably longer.

redsmetz
07-30-2008, 09:18 AM
The problems can even be traced back to Marge Schott and her firing of scouts because all they did was watch baseball games. I knew way back then that this franchise was in trouble and it would take many,many years to build it back, if it ever can be to a competitive level.
I do think the minor league system is back on track. There seems to be talent starting to pump through it. But depth of talent needs to be built in the minor league sytem. That will take some time though and I don't think Castellini has that type of patience.

I think this has been the situation for the last several years. I think it is critical that we continue to improve our development folks; minor league coaches, instructors, scouts, etc. I want to know that players in development are getting very good instruction, learning to be better ballpayers. I'd like the organization to be in the position of constantly having to make tough decisions viz moving players up, who to cut loose (trading chips), etc.

That was my largest objection to the gratuitous bashing of Krivsky. He's gone, but he's not anywhere near the worst thing that has set the Reds back - and I'd argue the same about Dan O'Brien. It's really not been one thing, other than perhaps, money squandering - penny wise, but pound foolish. And that goes right to the top in the past two ownership groups (Schott and Linder). Castellini can move the whole organization forward, but it takes time. We've made good strides in the last several years. I hope Jocketty will continue it (and perhaps not rushing into doing something simply for the sake of doing something bodes well).

flyer85
07-30-2008, 09:18 AM
Clearly the problem is Adam Dunn and his lack of hustle.I have heard said he jogs or walks on and off the field from his position.

Cyclone792
07-30-2008, 09:18 AM
We all know pennants fly forever; unfortunately for Reds fans, we don't have any new pennants to fly.

Since the birth of the World Series in 1903, the longest the Reds have ever had to wait to fly a new NL pennant was 21 years - the stretch from their 1940 World Series championship until their 1961 NL pennant.

The last time the Reds captured the pennant was 1990, and they're not winning one in 2008. So by the time 2009 rolls around, it will already be 19 years. If the Reds are unable to grab an NL flag by 2012, they'll have endured the longest stretch in franchise history without flying a new NL pennant.

Roy Tucker
07-30-2008, 09:28 AM
You can blame it on me.

When I took my then-7 yr. old son to the 1995 Division Series and NLCS games, I said "now don't get too used to this, the Reds don't make the playoffs every year".

My son is now 20 and the Reds haven't been back since. I guess I need to be careful what I say.

Highlifeman21
07-30-2008, 12:42 PM
You can blame it on me.

When I took my then-7 yr. old son to the 1995 Division Series and NLCS games, I said "now don't get too used to this, the Reds don't make the playoffs every year".

My son is now 20 and the Reds haven't been back since. I guess I need to be careful what I say.

At least you were being honest.

I appreciate that, and so should your son.

All I ask is that the Reds make the playoffs by the time I turn 30 during October of 2010. But that might be asking for too much, with this current roster of "talent".

Spring~Fields
07-30-2008, 01:12 PM
:lol: Great ending line.

That's what happens when you have someone like John Allen running the team into the ground.



Cyclone792 wrote:
We're pretty much now looking at the 3rd worst stretch in franchise history for this organization; only the early 30s and the late 40s/early 50s were worse. In fact, the last time the Reds were this bad for this long they were an all white team and hadn't yet integrated. And if this organization doesn't improve pretty quickly over the next few years, then they're in danger of launching themselves into the worst stretch in franchise history.
The Reds are 114 games below .500 since beginning the 2001 season
The Reds have averaged a 74-88 record since beginning the 2001 season
The Reds have been outscored by 790 runs since beginning the 2001 season
Congrats go out to everybody in the Reds organization who have contributed to such a run.


Who has been in control of this organization, who has been running it ?

Answer: Lindner, Reich, Strike, and Castellini

Through that stretch how many President and Chief Executive Officers ?

Answer: Lindner and Castellini

Through that stretch who were the powerful investors/owners, who dictate how the team will be ran, and how the resources will be managed ?

Answer: Lindner, Reich, Strike, and Castellini

Subordinates
During the period in question,
How many general managers?
How many managers?
How many coaches?
How many players?

Doesn’t seem to have mattered who the general managers, managers, coaches or players were according to the results posted in this thread. Considering the high turnover in that area.

I suggest that the “powers that be” are and have been the problem of winning baseball games, as they laughed all the way to the bank, and won big on the financial sides.

Question has the ticket prices gone up as the product remained bad ?

Robert H. Castellini President and Chief Executive Officer
Investors
Robert H. Castellini - W. Joseph Williams Jr. - Thomas L. Williams
Carl H. Lindner -- Carl H. Lindner III -- Mrs. Louis Nippert -- William J. Reik -- George L. Strike
Rick Steiner, Buy Buy Baseball, LLC - EMK Investment Company, LLC - Larry Sheakley - Jeffrey L. Wyler
Harry J. Fath - Jeffrey L. Gendell - Edwin J. Riguad, AACE, LLC - HKR Baseball, LLC - Ronald L. Sargent
John H. Wyant - George H. Vincent, Queen City Diamond, LLC - Heading for Home, LLC - Art Hauser
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=cin

MrCinatit
07-30-2008, 02:55 PM
Since the birth of the World Series in 1903, the longest the Reds have ever had to wait to fly a new NL pennant was 21 years - the stretch from their 1940 World Series championship until their 1961 NL pennant.
The last time the Reds captured the pennant was 1990, and they're not winning one in 2008. So by the time 2009 rolls around, it will already be 19 years. If the Reds are unable to grab an NL flag by 2012, they'll have endured the longest stretch in franchise history without flying a new NL pennant.

Oh, make the pain stop.
But, hey, it ain't 100 years. Yet.



You can blame it on me.
When I took my then-7 yr. old son to the 1995 Division Series and NLCS games, I said "now don't get too used to this, the Reds don't make the playoffs every year".
My son is now 20 and the Reds haven't been back since. I guess I need to be careful what I say.

I can probably share some of that blame.
The last time I went to a game was 1990.

westofyou
07-31-2008, 06:31 PM
Folks lament the fact that Reds brass wants to finish above .500 this year, many think it doesn't matter.. probably not the ones trying to sell season ticket packages, but I see their side too. That said the Reds are one losing season from the 3 Star Stink.


To get in the door your team needs to have 8 sub (or .500) seasons in a row. To get into the next level you need 11 season in a row... Baltimore is going there this year.

BTW Bob Castellini used to be part owner of the Orioles too.


*** THREE STAR STINK



St. Louis Cardinals
----------------------------------
YEAR PLACE W L PCT GB TITLE
1902 6th 56 78 .418 44.5
1903 8th 43 94 .314 46.5
1904 5th 75 79 .487 31.5
1905 6th 58 96 .377 47.5
1906 7th 52 98 .347 63
1907 8th 52 101 .340 55.5
1908 8th 49 105 .318 50
1909 7th 54 98 .355 56
1910 7th 63 90 .412 40.5

1911 5th 75 74 .503 22


A nine-year run of futility that ended oddly enough when Helene Hatheway Britton inherited the team from her father and uncle, making her the first female owner in the history f the game. Five years later Branch Rickey appeared from the team across town and well that suffices it to say; this is the Cardinals only entry in the list.

This was the end result of what happens when you have no hitting and no pitching you get only one season that you don't finish 30 or more back from first. However they did manage to get Miller Huggins away from the Reds in the middle of that span, he helped pave the way for the Rickey era, whilst the Reds floundered for the first time, but certainly not the last.



Cincinnati Reds
---------------------------------
YEAR PLACE W L PCT GB TITLE
1929 7th 66 88 .429 33
1930 7th 59 95 .383 33
1931 8th 58 96 .377 43
1932 8th 60 94 .390 30
1933 8th 58 94 .382 33
1934 8th 52 99 .344 42
1935 6th 68 85 .444 31.5
1936 5th 74 80 .481 18
1937 8th 56 98 .364 40

1938 4th 82 68 .547 6

The plight of the Reds is at the end of the 1920’s and into the depression is one marked with a reoccurring theme in early baseball history (older owner bases not changing with the times) and a constant theme, money issues affecting the franchise. The departure of Garry Herrmann from the Reds brass was mirrored by an unstable time in the Reds history, local businessman Sidney Weil was able to wrest the club away from the men who ran the team in the post Herrmann era, but he hardly had the resources to run a major league franchise and the stock market collapse ensured that he never would in the near future. Eventually the bank owned the Reds, Larry MacPhail came to town, then Powell Crosley and Warren Giles. During this time they changed the game (Night Contests) and they stank, a putrid, stink losing 94 games or more 6 times out of 9 seasons and holding the bottom of the league down for 5 of them.




Pittsburgh Pirates
----------------------------------
YEAR PLACE W L PCT GB TITLE
1949 6th 71 83 .461 26
1950 8th 57 96 .373 33.5
1951 7th 64 90 .416 32.5
1952 8th 42 112 .273 54.5
1953 8th 50 104 .325 55
1954 8th 53 101 .344 44
1955 8th 60 94 .390 38.5
1956 7th 66 88 .429 27
1957 T7th 62 92 .403 33

1958 2nd 84 70 .545 8


When the Pirates were sold in the late 40’s to a group including Bing Crosby it was the passing of an era. The passing of the torch from Mrs. Barney Dreyfuss (the wife of the Pirates owner since the early part of the century) marked the end of the last ownership that could reach back and touch the days of the realigned National League. The move was the end of an era when Pittsburgh was known as Smoke City and the beginning of an era that would reshape the team and the cities image in the eyes of the baseball world. It also marked the last stop as team GM for Branch Rickey, who was eventually hired to fix the mess created by the dinosaur ownership group who couldn’t move with the quickening pace of mid-century major league baseball. 317 losses in three years, it’s a wonder the team didn’t move, and to show their appreciation once the team stopped losing 100 games a season the fans started to return.



Chicago White Sox
----------------------------------
YEAR PLACE W L PCT GB TITLE
1927 5th 70 83 .458 39.5
1928 5th 72 82 .468 29
1929 7th 59 93 .388 46
1930 7th 62 92 .403 40
1931 8th 56 97 .366 51.5
1932 7th 49 102 .325 56.5
1933 6th 67 83 .447 31
1934 8th 53 99 .349 47
1935 5th 74 78 .487 19.5

1936 3rd 81 70 .536 20

When Charles Comiskey built his steel and concrete stadium in 1909 he asked pitcher Ed Walsh to help him design the field. Walsh a spitballer in an era that favored pitching helped design a park that was a nice pitchers park for most of it’s life. During hitting eras it helped the home team, except when the home team didn’t help itself. The above is one of those times. A 9 year stretch of sub par hitting and pitching, during one of the biggest hitting eras ever. Prior to 1927 the White Sox had only lost 80 games 5 times prior, it would take 8 season until they lost less then 80. The absolute bottom was hit when the White Sox lost 102 games the year after Charles Comiskey died.



AMERICAN LEAGUE
1927-1935

ERA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
Yankees 0.36 3.99 4.35
Senators 0.15 4.20 4.35
A's 0.15 4.20 4.35
Indians 0.06 4.29 4.35
Tigers 0.04 4.31 4.35
Red Sox -.15 4.50 4.35
White Sox -.22 4.57 4.35
Browns -.39 4.73 4.35

=================================================

OBA OBA
Yankees .372
A's .360
Senators .352
Tigers .349
Indians .347
Browns .338
White Sox .334
Red Sox .328

SLG SLG
Yankees .452
A's .435
Tigers .411
Indians .405
Senators .395
Browns .382
Red Sox .367
White Sox .366


Fun Fact: The White Sox didn’t have a player top 29 Home Runs in a season until Bill Melton did it in 1970. In the same span the Yankees did it 44 times and the Red Sox 25, and in Detroit they did it 19 times.



Washington Senators
---------------------------------
YEAR PLACE W L PCT GB TITLE
1954 6th 66 88 .429 45
1955 8th 53 101 .344 43
1956 7th 59 95 .383 38
1957 8th 55 99 .357 43
1958 8th 61 93 .396 31
1959 8th 63 91 .409 31
1960 5th 73 81 .474 24
1961 7th 70 90 .438 38

1962 2nd 91 71 .562 5

The stink of death, as one of the original AL franchises moves out of the Capital, again. Strangely enough the Washington franchise was drawing about what the pitiful Pirates of the 50’s were drawing. But they didn’t have an owner grumbling about the racial makeup of the city and the dollars being generated by once lost franchises like the Braves. In the decade of the super team the Senators fall way short, they don’t get much press from the New York saturated coverage of the 50’s in the baseball literary world. Taking a look at their record and you might understand why. Each dynasty has its bobos; this is a prime example of one. Whitey Herzog got 504 at bats with the Senators during this time, compiling a .230/.300/.313 line. The last year of the run was spent in Minnesota and a new era was beginning.




Boston Red Sox
---------------------------------
YEAR PLACE W L PCT GB TITLE
1959 5th 75 79 .487 19
1960 7th 65 89 .422 32
1961 6th 76 86 .469 33
1962 8th 76 84 .475 19
1963 7th 76 85 .472 28
1964 8th 72 90 .444 27
1965 9th 62 100 .383 40
1966 9th 72 90 .444 26

1967 1st 92 70 .568 +1 AL CHAMPIONS


It began the year Ted Williams turned 40, and the year that Pumpsie Green makes the Red Sox the last team to leave the lily white past of baseball in the rearview mirror. The 100-loss season in 1965 was the first 100-loss season since prior to the Yawkeys purchasing the team in the 1930’s. The string ends with the Impossible Dream season in 1967 and the cementing of Carl Yastrzemski a Boston legend, a moment still celebrated in Red Sox lore, a space of time that even surprised the most diehard Sox fan.



Philadelphia Phillies
--------------------------------
YEAR PLACE W L PCT GB TITLE
1954 4th 75 79 .487 22
1955 4th 77 77 .500 21.5
1956 5th 71 83 .461 22
1957 5th 77 77 .500 18
1958 8th 69 85 .448 23
1959 8th 64 90 .416 23
1960 8th 59 95 .383 36
1961 8th 47 107 .305 46

1962 7th 81 80 .503 20


What goes up must come down. The Phillies brief touch of the top was a mere memory as they found themselves in a familiar place, the bottom half of the standings, howver this time they were the only show in town, having bid the A’s farewell when they went west after the 1954 season. Two .500 seasons stretched this minor stink in Phillie history; the 90 loss season in 1959 was the teams 26th season with 90 losses or more! 12 of those seasons were 100 losses or more. Gene Mauch came in and saved their bacon, only to infuriate the fans later on in the decade.



Twins
----------------------------------
YEAR PLACE W L PCT GB TITLE
1993 T5th 71 91 .438 23
1994 4th 53 60 .469 14
1995 5th 56 88 .389 44
1996 4th 78 84 .481 21.5
1997 4th 68 94 .420 18.5
1998 4th 70 92 .432 19
1999 5th 63 97 .394 33
2000 5th 69 93 .426 26

2001 2nd 85 77 .525 6

Ahh the Twins… so often they have popped up after years of stink, vengeful and scrappy they fight their way into the scene, despite the pundits declarations. This era of the Twins was affected by the post lock out situation and the ensuing era often found them on the top of lists to be contracted… somewhere Sam Rice cried. Four straight seasons of 90 losses and 1st base manned by Scott Stahoviak, a fan can only stomach so much. Payback comes again this post season as the once to be contracted Twins are again fighting to be in the post season.





Royals
----------------------------------
YEAR PLACE W L PCT GB TITLE

1995 2nd 70 74 .486 30
1996 5th 75 86 .466 24
1997 5th 67 94 .416 19
1998 3rd 72 89 .447 16.5
1999 4th 64 97 .398 32.5
2000 4th 77 85 .475 18
2001 5th 65 97 .401 26
2002 4th 62 100 .383 32.5

2003 3rd 83 79 .512 7


A surprise season in 2003 pulled the once proud Royals franchise out of their post strike funk. It turned out to be a fluke however and the Royals are once again poised to lose 100 games. A feat first attained since 1970 by the 2002 club a team that was the portal out of the game for Chuck Knoblauch. Currently the Royals are in a funk that looks like a sure thing for some sort of list about bad baseball teams in the near future.

Cyclone792
07-31-2008, 08:46 PM
Great stuff, woy.

Rojo
07-31-2008, 09:01 PM
It's the White Sox' problem now.

KronoRed
07-31-2008, 09:29 PM
It's the White Sox' problem now.

Hardly, the problems around the Reds run way deeper then one player.

RosieRed
07-31-2008, 10:22 PM
It's the White Sox' problem now.

Yeah. The Reds losing since 2001 has been completely fixed now. Going forward as is toward an undefeated rest of the season!

Rojo
08-01-2008, 06:56 PM
Hardly, the problems around the Reds run way deeper then one player.

Sure. But going into this decade you had a cheapskate CEO in Allen and terrific horse-trader in Bowden. The latter's skills made up for the lack of investment by the former, to a degree.

Jr.'s contract tied Bowden's hands and hardened Allen.

princeton
08-01-2008, 07:51 PM
Sure. But going into this decade you had a cheapskate CEO in Allen and terrific horse-trader in Bowden. The latter's skills made up for the lack of investment by the former, to a degree.

Jr.'s contract tied Bowden's hands and hardened Allen.

Rojo smart

GAC
08-02-2008, 06:47 AM
Anyone have a chart of the major-league pitching talent (or any major-league players, for that matter) drafted and developed by the Reds during that timeframe?

Wouldn't take long to put that chart together. Certainly wouldn't need to use Excel Johnny. ;)

GAC
08-02-2008, 07:35 AM
We have a team of hackers who have no idea how to work a count. We lack intelligent hitters. I just have to feel we're going to have to import some maturity to this squad and hire management that has the guts to make players be more patient at the plate.


Bingo. Adam Dunn is virtually the only patient hitter the Reds have, and many Reds fans, lead by the local media, want to run Dunn out of town. I sometimes think a lot of Reds fans and leaders have never even heard of on base percentage.

Very true gentlemen.

If I was Adam Dunn you wouldn't have to run me out of town. I'd leave. Let Dusty try to then assemble an offense that would then suit his philosophy.




batting #1 .263 BA .313 OB% .381 SLG% .694 OPS total bases 180
batting #2 .265 BA .317 OB% .372 SLG% .688 OPS total bases 173
batting #3 .234 BA .337 OB% .404 SLG% .741 OPS total bases 169
batting #4 .264 BA .326 OB% .440 SLG% .766 OPS total bases 190

All the above is bottom tier.

Yet look at a comparison between the 1-4 spots vs 5-8 spots...


Walks OB%

#1 33 .313 (last in the NL)
#2 32 .316
#3 63 .337
#4 38 .326

TOTAL 166 .323

#5 80 .391 (leads MLB)
#6 38 .334
#7 40 .355
#8 51 .315

TOTAL 209 .349

As much as many were complaining about Jr in the #3 hole, and with justification, look what he was doing in the above areas in comparison to those in the key lead off spots. 2nd only to Dunn in BBs and OB%. One may want to add Hairston, but the guy has appeared in half as many games as the others too.

Now do I place total blame on Dusty? No. You gotta play the cards dealt you.

But I question, so far, at HOW he has chosen to play those cards.

We say that Jocketty needs to be given time (a grace period) to put his "fingerprint" on this team. And I'm sure he'll be receiving input from Dusty.

So now we're going to see, between now and next season, what kind of imprint Dusty wants to place on this roster.

But I'm not impressed with a manager, when asked about the teams offensive woes, whose simplified responses are "we need to get more hits". ;)

Big Klu
08-02-2008, 12:00 PM
Anyone have a chart of the major-league pitching talent (or any major-league players, for that matter) drafted and developed by the Reds during that timeframe?

2000:
Dane Sardinha, C (2nd rd.)
Stephen Smitherman, OF (23rd rd.)

2001:
None

2002:
Joey Votto, C/1B (2nd rd.)
Chris Denorfia, OF (19th rd.)
Calvin Medlock, RHP (39th rd.)

2003:
Ryan Wagner, RHP (1st rd.)

2004:
Homer Bailey, RHP (1st rd.)
Paul Janish, SS (5th rd.)

2005:
Jay Bruce, OF (1st rd.)

2006:
None

2007:
None

2008:
None (obviously)

HokieRed
08-02-2008, 01:06 PM
Dustin Moseley also in 2000.

Big Klu
08-02-2008, 02:09 PM
Dustin Moseley also in 2000.

Thanks. I overlooked him. (Although he didn't make it to the big leagues until he was traded to the Angels.)

redsmetz
08-02-2008, 03:20 PM
Dustin Moseley also in 2000.

Ryan Snare is also from the 2000 draft, 2nd round. We traded him to the Marlins two years later in the deal that brought Ryan Dempster to us. Snare pitched part of 2004 with the Rangers, but he appears to now be out of baseball.

OnBaseMachine
08-02-2008, 03:42 PM
Things seem to be finally turning for the better in the recent Reds drafts. The 2005 draft netted us a future superstar in Jay Bruce. Travis Wood is currently pitching in AA and while he's struggling, he has two major league pitches right now. Zach Ward was dealt for Kyle Lohse who was dealt for Matt Maloney. Sam Lecure is pitching well in AA. Jeff Stevens was dealt for Brandon Phillips. Carlos Fisher and Adam Rosales are in AAA. I'd call that draft pretty successful.

The 2006 draft has already saw eight players reach AA. Drafting Drew Stubbs over Lincecum hurt but Stubbs could still turn into a gold glove caliber center fielder. Behind him the Reds landed some solid depth. Sean Watson could develop into a fine setup man if he can find his control. Chris Valaika looks like a future above average middle infielder. Jordan Smith is currently starting in AA but profiles as a reliever with solid stuff. Josh Roenicke is pitching great in Louisville and should reach Cincy anytime now. Others like Justin Turner, Danny Dorn, and Chris Heisey look like they could be role players in the majors.

The 2007 Reds draft was among the best in all of baseball last season. Catcher Devin Mesoraco is showing some solid hitting skills in Dayton. Todd Frazier has already advanced to High-A and projects as a very good major league hitter. Zach Cozart is hitting better than expected while flashing great defense. Neftali Soto is the best RH HS bat in the Reds system since Austin Kearns. Kyle Lotzkar has a 12.3 K/9 ratio as an 18-year old in Low-A. He's in the class of Johnny Cueto/Edinson Volquez type of prospects IMO. There's plenty more intriging prospects behind them like Evan Hildenbrandt, Scott Carroll, Jeremy Horst, Jeff Jeffords, Shea Snowden, and Alexis Oliveras.

It's way too early to judge the 2008 draft but I like the early returns so far. Yonder Alonso has yet to sign but when he does he's expected to move quickly through the system. Third rounder Zach Stewart is mowing down hitters left and right and could reach Cincy next season at this pace.

Jim Bowden's drafts killed this organization but I like the direction of the recent drafts. They could all still flop but at least most of the prospects are progressing instead of flaming out like they did in years past.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 04:34 PM
The 2005 draft netted us a future superstar in Jay Bruce. Travis Wood is currently pitching in AA and while he's struggling, he has two major league pitches right now. Zach Ward was dealt for Kyle Lohse who was dealt for Matt Maloney. Sam Lecure is pitching well in AA. Jeff Stevens was dealt for Brandon Phillips. Carlos Fisher and Adam Rosales are in AAA. I'd call that draft pretty successful.

The 2006 draft has already saw eight players reach AA. Drafting Drew Stubbs over Lincecum hurt but Stubbs could still turn into a gold glove caliber center fielder. Behind him the Reds landed some solid depth. Sean Watson could develop into a fine setup man if he can find his control. Chris Valaika looks like a future above average middle infielder. Jordan Smith is currently starting in AA but profiles as a reliever with solid stuff. Josh Roenicke is pitching great in Louisville and should reach Cincy anytime now. Others like Justin Turner, Danny Dorn, and Chris Heisey look like they could be role players in the majors.

The 2007 Reds draft was among the best in all of baseball last season. Catcher Devin Mesoraco is showing some solid hitting skills in Dayton. Todd Frazier has already advanced to High-A and projects as a very good major league hitter. Zach Cozart is hitting better than expected while flashing great defense. Neftali Soto is the best RH HS bat in the Reds system since Austin Kearns. Kyle Lotzkar has a 12.3 K/9 ratio as an 18-year old in Low-A. He's in the class of Johnny Cueto/Edinson Volquez type of prospects IMO. There's plenty more intriging prospects behind them like Evan Hildenbrandt, Scott Carroll, Jeremy Horst, Jeff Jeffords, Shea Snowden, and Alexis Oliveras.

It's way too early to judge the 2008 draft but I like the early returns so far. Yonder Alonso has yet to sign but when he does he's expected to move quickly through the system. Third rounder Zach Stewart is mowing down hitters left and right and could reach Cincy next season at this pace.

Jim Bowden's drafts killed this organization but I like the direction of the recent drafts. They could all still flop but at least most of the prospects are progressing instead of flaming out like they did in years past.

Very good stuff OBM, thanks.

kaldaniels
08-02-2008, 04:54 PM
2000:
Dane Sardinha, C (2nd rd.)
Stephen Smitherman, OF (23rd rd.)

2001:
None

2002:
Joey Votto, C/1B (2nd rd.)
Chris Denorfia, OF (19th rd.)
Calvin Medlock, RHP (39th rd.)

2003:
Ryan Wagner, RHP (1st rd.)

2004:
Homer Bailey, RHP (1st rd.)
Paul Janish, SS (5th rd.)

2005:
Jay Bruce, OF (1st rd.)

2006:
None

2007:
None

2008:
None (obviously)

In a nutshell...that is why the Reds have been a poor franchise the past 10 years. On a daily basis we see micro-mangagement/lineup-order type moves ripped to shreds. The Austin Kearns trade has been beaten to death. I see complaints about the millions wasted on Stanton/Patterson types. Yeah, that type of stuff hurts, but the above post is the reason why the Reds haven't had a winning record in years. The five draft years from 2000-2004 were an absolute wasteland. Votto (good pick), Denoforia (so-so player...sorry) and Bailey (shaky pick at the moment) are it. Find a team that drafted worse than the Reds those 5 years. When you are constantly scrambling to fill your 25 man roster, the results are going to speak for themselves on the field.

It appears however, that things are turning around, and for that reason the future is very bright.

Cyclone792
09-29-2008, 08:21 AM
The 2008 season has concluded; will the misery of the Lost Decade ever do the same?


W L pct p-wins p-losses p-pct Runs RA Diff Runs/G RA/G

2001 66 96 .407 69 93 .428 735 850 -115 4.54 5.25
2002 78 84 .481 74 88 .456 709 774 -65 4.38 4.78
2003 69 93 .426 62 100 .380 694 886 -192 4.28 5.47
2004 76 86 .469 66 96 .406 750 907 -157 4.63 5.60
2005 73 89 .451 74 88 .460 820 889 -69 5.06 5.49
2006 80 82 .494 76 86 .466 749 801 -52 4.62 4.94
2007 72 90 .444 74 88 .457 783 853 -70 4.83 5.27
2008 74 88 .463 71 91 .431 704 800 -96 4.35 4.94

TOTAL 588 708 .454 565 731 .436 5944 6760 -790 4.59 5.22

wheels
09-29-2008, 11:41 AM
The scary part is that their record should be even worse than it actually is.

Are they moving in the right direction? I like that pitching is now in the equation, and I think Jocko's much more capable than O'brien or Krivsky, but.....

Highlifeman21
09-29-2008, 04:44 PM
The 2008 season has concluded; will the misery of the Lost Decade ever do the same?


W L pct p-wins p-losses p-pct Runs RA Diff Runs/G RA/G

2001 66 96 .407 69 93 .428 735 850 -115 4.54 5.25
2002 78 84 .481 74 88 .456 709 774 -65 4.38 4.78
2003 69 93 .426 62 100 .380 694 886 -192 4.28 5.47
2004 76 86 .469 66 96 .406 750 907 -157 4.63 5.60
2005 73 89 .451 74 88 .460 820 889 -69 5.06 5.49
2006 80 82 .494 76 86 .466 749 801 -52 4.62 4.94
2007 72 90 .444 74 88 .457 783 853 -70 4.83 5.27
2008 74 88 .463 71 91 .431 704 800 -96 4.35 4.94

TOTAL 588 708 .454 565 731 .436 5944 6760 -790 4.59 5.22


Integrity dude, integrity.

Spring~Fields
09-29-2008, 06:36 PM
The 2008 season has concluded; will the misery of the Lost Decade ever do the same?


W L pct p-wins p-losses p-pct Runs RA Diff Runs/G RA/G

2001 66 96 .407 69 93 .428 735 850 -115 4.54 5.25
2002 78 84 .481 74 88 .456 709 774 -65 4.38 4.78
2003 69 93 .426 62 100 .380 694 886 -192 4.28 5.47
2004 76 86 .469 66 96 .406 750 907 -157 4.63 5.60
2005 73 89 .451 74 88 .460 820 889 -69 5.06 5.49
2006 80 82 .494 76 86 .466 749 801 -52 4.62 4.94
2007 72 90 .444 74 88 .457 783 853 -70 4.83 5.27
2008 74 88 .463 71 91 .431 704 800 -96 4.35 4.94

TOTAL 588 708 .454 565 731 .436 5944 6760 -790 4.59 5.22


Why does this years offense appear to have been worse than preceeding years? Is there a way to objectively tell why that might have occurred?

Patrick Bateman
09-29-2008, 06:39 PM
Griffey got old.
Gonzalez got injured.
Hamilton got traded.
Bako got played.

I think those would be the main reasons.

Highlifeman21
09-29-2008, 06:42 PM
Griffey got old.
Gonzalez got injured.
Hamilton got traded.
Bako got played.

I think those would be the main reasons.

Griffey got old.
Gonzalez didn't play.
Hamilton got traded.
Bako played too much.
Ross played too much.
Valentin played too much.
Patterson played way way waaaaaay too much.
Dunn got traded.
Keppinger came back to Earth.
B. Phillips proved to not be all that.

I think that about covers it.

oregonred
09-30-2008, 05:30 PM
2000:
Dane Sardinha, C (2nd rd.)
Stephen Smitherman, OF (23rd rd.)

2001:
None

2002:
Joey Votto, C/1B (2nd rd.)
Chris Denorfia, OF (19th rd.)
Calvin Medlock, RHP (39th rd.)

2003:
Ryan Wagner, RHP (1st rd.)

2004:
Homer Bailey, RHP (1st rd.)
Paul Janish, SS (5th rd.)

2005:
Jay Bruce, OF (1st rd.)

2006:
None

2007:
None

2008:
None (obviously)

2000-2004 = Bengalsesque.

If it wasn't for complete thievery to acquire parts like Phillips, Harang, EdE and Hamilton = Volquez this franchise would easily have been a 100-game loser from 2007-2009+

Big Klu
09-30-2008, 06:22 PM
2000-2004 = Bengalsesque.

If it wasn't for complete thievery to acquire parts like Phillips, Harang, EdE and Hamilton = Volquez this franchise would easily have been a 100-game loser from 2007-2009+

Here's the updated list. Players who have made their major-league debuts since my first list on August 2, 2008 are in bold. (I only list players who made it to the big leagues as a Red.)

2000:
Dane Sardinha, C (2nd rd.)
Stephen Smitherman, OF (23rd rd.)

2001:
None

2002:
Joey Votto, C/1B (2nd rd.)
Chris Denorfia, OF (19th rd.)
Calvin Medlock, RHP (39th rd.)

2003:
Ryan Wagner, RHP (1st rd.)
Chris Dickerson, OF (16th rd.)

2004:
Homer Bailey, RHP (1st rd.)
Paul Janish, SS (5th rd.)

2005:
Jay Bruce, OF (1st rd.)
Adam Rosales, SS (12th rd.)

2006:
Josh Roenicke, RHP (10th rd.)

2007:
None

2008:
None

GAC
09-30-2008, 07:59 PM
People, people, people..... you're missing the point!

"THE LOSING STOPS NOW!"